Author Topic: MOS should stay  (Read 56978 times)

Las Vegas

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2018, 02:29:27 PM »
I thought about your question and it may be that I'm not understanding it. Are you asking if growing up in the bible belt of the US in a home where at least one parent was Christian had an impact on what I believed? If so then absolutely. There is little doubt in my mind that had I been born in an area that was 99% Muslim, and at least one of my parents were Muslim and introduced me to Islam, I would likely have been Muslim.

Yes, to me it sounds like what almost any religious person would say if reflecting thoughtfully and honestly.  Perhaps mistaking a natural satisfaction in cultural fulfillment for something greater, even. 

But it also sounds like the person's giving a lifelong effort to uphold a sense of logic at the expense of the conscience, which then regretfully turns around to destroy the logic.  If that person's logic goes unsurrendered to conscience, it raises a question whether the person has actually surrendered to God.  It doesn't seem possible.

Agnostic007

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2018, 11:00:49 PM »
Yes, to me it sounds like what almost any religious person would say if reflecting thoughtfully and honestly.  Perhaps mistaking a natural satisfaction in cultural fulfillment for something greater, even. 

But it also sounds like the person's giving a lifelong effort to uphold a sense of logic at the expense of the conscience, which then regretfully turns around to destroy the logic.  If that person's logic goes unsurrendered to conscience, it raises a question whether the person has actually surrendered to God.  It doesn't seem possible.

Honestly, didn't understand much of that. Could you dumb it down just a bit for me?

Las Vegas

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #52 on: April 06, 2018, 02:00:19 AM »
Honestly, didn't understand much of that. Could you dumb it down just a bit for me?

Love you know to be true in your life: Isn't it accurate to say it wasn't determined through logical test, but rather by the way it tested your logic?

It couldn't have been through logical test, IMO, because you wouldn't know it to be true.  Just to get an idea of where you're coming from, do you agree?

Agnostic007

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #53 on: April 06, 2018, 12:46:21 PM »
Love you know to be true in your life: Isn't it accurate to say it wasn't determined through logical test, but rather by the way it tested your logic?

It couldn't have been through logical test, IMO, because you wouldn't know it to be true.  Just to get an idea of where you're coming from, do you agree?

I don't know if I agree or disagree at this point. Is this a version of the "You can't prove love exists but it does, therefore there is similar evidence for a God?" argument?

Las Vegas

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #54 on: April 06, 2018, 02:18:31 PM »
I don't know if I agree or disagree at this point.

You don't know that about yourself?  Or you do know, but would rather not say at the moment.

Quote
Is this a version of the "You can't prove love exists but it does, therefore there is similar evidence for a God?" argument?

No, because that should go without saying.  It also goes full throttle in reverse, of course, so just about everyone gets run over by it.  That's what I'm telling you.  No person outside of yourself can explain to you what's in your heart, whether you're in the business of accepting God, or you've assumed the business of rejecting God.

To limit your internalized thoughts so as to "check out" with others through the process, means you've taken man's direction -- you lose, either way.  From all angles, and for whatever you hope (or believe) you're doing, you will lose.  You will fail, and your logic will remain broken.

The message must come through the conscience, that much I've learned (and with no doubt left at this point).

SF1900

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2018, 03:09:05 PM »
kind words and thank you
my time on GB is pretty much done, but since I still mod I check from time to time
but I know my discussion/debate is finished....I mean I would love to got into the "Religion is B.S." thread on the G&O and SHRED IT, but I'm not gonna.  Everything in that thread I've already addressed over and over for years so there's no point.  Few minds are changed and the majority of minds are made up even after solid answers are given to the questions/objections.
I'm concentrating my time on my family, my church, my work and my training.....GB occupied more than enough time in my life already.....good times, bad times and blah times but time to move on
I come on here once in awhile to continue to collect my old post history, check on mod stuff and when I'm done collecting my post history I'll simply walk away like Bill Bixby carrying his backpack on the Incredible Hulk tv series  :)

lol at Shred it.

You got owned in pretty much most debates by Syntax, AVXO, and Sync Pulse.
X

Agnostic007

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2018, 07:01:37 PM »
lol at Shred it.

You got owned in pretty much most debates by Syntax, AVXO, and Sync Pulse.

Actually, almost everyone. You can't defend the bible in any debate against anyone with a junior level of biblical knowledge.

Las Vegas

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2018, 09:11:38 PM »
Actually, almost everyone. You can't defend the bible in any debate against anyone with a junior level of biblical knowledge.

Who has that level?  The person he was debating with? (Seriously, don't know, it looks to go either way by what you wrote.)

I missed those threads SF mentioned.

Agnostic007

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2018, 09:14:21 PM »
Who has that level?  The person he was debating with? (Seriously, don't know, it looks to go either way by what you wrote.)

I missed those threads SF mentioned.


It was interesting at times. But like MOS alluded to, it went down predictable roads. No amount of information would ever suffice to prove a point depending on which side you were debating on. I run into it in real life just as often.

Las Vegas

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2018, 02:39:12 PM »
It was interesting at times. But like MOS alluded to, it went down predictable roads. No amount of information would ever suffice to prove a point depending on which side you were debating on. I run into it in real life just as often.

Yeah, I'd like to see one of those threads if you or SF could link your favorite, or most informative, something iyo.  The best one, if you recall any particulars about it.  I can search it, too, if you just remember a few things from it.

Agnostic007

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #60 on: May 01, 2018, 09:11:47 PM »
Yeah, I'd like to see one of those threads if you or SF could link your favorite, or most informative, something iyo.  The best one, if you recall any particulars about it.  I can search it, too, if you just remember a few things from it.

I put my screen name in the search engine on Religion and came up with 4 pages. I can't tell you which ones were epic enough to point out.

Man of Steel

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #61 on: May 02, 2018, 07:36:46 AM »
LOL!! 

Checked in to mod....nothin.   Checked PMs....nada.  Out.

Las Vegas

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #62 on: May 02, 2018, 10:37:17 AM »
So there are a few major (big) threads from the past, yeah.  I see that.  But they look to be attempted shows of logic by everyone in them, on both sides, to leave a final impression that there "is" or "is not" God.

From what I've seen in them, though, I've gotta go with MoS.  He makes more sense than the others.

Las Vegas

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #63 on: May 02, 2018, 10:39:46 AM »
And whatever happened to OTH?  Dude's alright.  He should get his head out of the clouds (he's in roofing) and post here again.

Agnostic007

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #64 on: May 02, 2018, 12:53:24 PM »
So there are a few major (big) threads from the past, yeah.  I see that.  But they look to be attempted shows of logic by everyone in them, on both sides, to leave a final impression that there "is" or "is not" God.

From what I've seen in them, though, I've gotta go with MoS.  He makes more sense than the others.

If you are saying I side with MOS out of those who are believers, he is one of the more knowledgeable and articulate. If you are saying his argument made more sense than those who didn't believe in god then we'll have to disagree  :)   

Las Vegas

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #65 on: May 02, 2018, 01:32:23 PM »
If you are saying I side with MOS out of those who are believers, he is one of the more knowledgeable and articulate. If you are saying his argument made more sense than those who didn't believe in god then we'll have to disagree  :)   

I see it as a matter of using surrendered-and-returned logic versus an unsurrendered excuse for logic (one which is bound only for the worst fate, despite what the user may wish).  No, there won't be anything conclusive to be found that isn't already known.  That's for sure.

Primemuscle

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #66 on: July 04, 2018, 11:16:17 PM »
kind words and thank you
my time on GB is pretty much done, but since I still mod I check from time to time
but I know my discussion/debate is finished....I mean I would love to got into the "Religion is B.S." thread on the G&O and SHRED IT, but I'm not gonna.  Everything in that thread I've already addressed over and over for years so there's no point.  Few minds are changed and the majority of minds are made up even after solid answers are given to the questions/objections.
I'm concentrating my time on my family, my church, my work and my training.....GB occupied more than enough time in my life already.....good times, bad times and blah times but time to move on
I come on here once in awhile to continue to collect my old post history, check on mod stuff and when I'm done collecting my post history I'll simply walk away like Bill Bixby carrying his backpack on the Incredible Hulk tv series  :)

There's something a little sad about this. It makes sense that you not waste your time with strangers who may or may not get anything out of your posts. People do change however, sometimes it's just damn hard to see.

Religion shouldn't be debated, but it should appreciated for the good it sometimes does for people who have nothing else. For them finding a spiritual connection can be a life saver. Yes, people give off that their minds are made up and cannot be changed. This is really frustrating when your goal to help them see things differently is met with hostility instead of, at least, some curiosity.

Your family, church, work and health are definitely very important and should be your primary focus. The question is, is that enough for you?

I think if you go, you will be missed.

Agnostic007

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2018, 09:55:44 PM »
There's something a little sad about this. It makes sense that you not waste your time with strangers who may or may not get anything out of your posts. People do change however, sometimes it's just damn hard to see.

Religion shouldn't be debated, but it should appreciated for the good it sometimes does for people who have nothing else. For them finding a spiritual connection can be a life saver. Yes, people give off that their minds are made up and cannot be changed. This is really frustrating when your goal to help them see things differently is met with hostility instead of, at least, some curiosity.

Your family, church, work and health are definitely very important and should be your primary focus. The question is, is that enough for you?

I think if you go, you will be missed.

Anything that is claimed to be the truth, especially if the claimed outcome is an eternal reward or punishment, and is infused in the government should be discussed and debated, but civilly. 

Primemuscle

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #68 on: July 07, 2018, 01:52:05 PM »
Anything that is claimed to be the truth, especially if the claimed outcome is an eternal reward or punishment, and is infused in the government should be discussed and debated, but civilly. 

Perhaps you're right about civil discussions. I don't discuss my personal religious beliefs if I can help it.

Agnostic007

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #69 on: July 07, 2018, 05:44:04 PM »
Perhaps you're right about civil discussions. I don't discuss my personal religious beliefs if I can help it.

And that's probably the norm and ok. I typically only bring it up or talk about it in real life when someone else starts the conversation or starts talking about needing more god in government.

illuminati

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #70 on: July 07, 2018, 11:08:30 PM »
And that's probably the norm and ok. I typically only bring it up or talk about it in real life when someone else starts the conversation or starts talking about needing more god in government.

There is No Mythical God
That’s the simple & correct answer.

How otherwise rational & intelligent people can believe in
A Mythical God who does Fcuk all other than bring death
Destruction & misery too many is beyond Me.

Agnostic007

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #71 on: July 08, 2018, 11:18:42 AM »
There is No Mythical God
That’s the simple & correct answer.

How otherwise rational & intelligent people can believe in
A Mythical God who does Fcuk all other than bring death
Destruction & misery too many is beyond Me.

Personally, I think it has to do with 2 things. 1. conditioning as a child. For example, most children are taught two supernatural beings exist. God and Santa Clause. As a child you are told by responsible adults, parents, teachers, Walter Cronkite, that Santa is real. You see the evidence, presents arriving mysteriously, the radar at NORAD tracking Santa and in your mind there is no doubt he exists. Anyone who doesn't believe is ignorant, hates Christmas, or stupid. Same thing with religion. Responsible adults are telling you God and or Jesus exists. The rainbow is explained to you as Gods promise not to flood the earth again. Hell, there's a rainbow, so it must be true. All or most of your friends, teachers, coaches, they all believe it. As you reach a certain age, people start to tell you Santa doesn't exist. First you might hear it from an older kid at school. You don't believe him, after all, you've believed this all your life. He may start asking your hard questions like "How is it possible when there are x number of homes, located all over the globe, mathematically it is impossible for him to do this great feat. You ask your parents, they may admit it or carry out the farce hoping for another year... but eventually, you realize it is fake and drop the belief. The only  difference between the two stories is the latter, the god story, adults keep telling you its real and therefore you maintain that belief, really never asking or getting asked the hard questions. And if you do, you have the equivalent of "Well Santa can travel at light speed, time actually comes to a stop so that he can personally deliver each gift, stopping to drink milk and eat cookies at the homes that provided those treats." and its accepted
The 2nd reason I think comes from the human desire to survive. Death can't be final so I will believe it goes on. 

illuminati

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2018, 02:15:23 PM »
Personally, I think it has to do with 2 things. 1. conditioning as a child. For example, most children are taught two supernatural beings exist. God and Santa Clause. As a child you are told by responsible adults, parents, teachers, Walter Cronkite, that Santa is real. You see the evidence, presents arriving mysteriously, the radar at NORAD tracking Santa and in your mind there is no doubt he exists. Anyone who doesn't believe is ignorant, hates Christmas, or stupid. Same thing with religion. Responsible adults are telling you God and or Jesus exists. The rainbow is explained to you as Gods promise not to flood the earth again. Hell, there's a rainbow, so it must be true. All or most of your friends, teachers, coaches, they all believe it. As you reach a certain age, people start to tell you Santa doesn't exist. First you might hear it from an older kid at school. You don't believe him, after all, you've believed this all your life. He may start asking your hard questions like "How is it possible when there are x number of homes, located all over the globe, mathematically it is impossible for him to do this great feat. You ask your parents, they may admit it or carry out the farce hoping for another year... but eventually, you realize it is fake and drop the belief. The only  difference between the two stories is the latter, the god story, adults keep telling you its real and therefore you maintain that belief, really never asking or getting asked the hard questions. And if you do, you have the equivalent of "Well Santa can travel at light speed, time actually comes to a stop so that he can personally deliver each gift, stopping to drink milk and eat cookies at the homes that provided those treats." and its accepted
The 2nd reason I think comes from the human desire to survive. Death can't be final so I will believe it goes on. 

I can follow your train of thought up to the point we become self thinking & questioning.

The earth is not flat
There is no santa
The moon isn’t made of cheese
There is no tooth fairy
There is no weirdy beardy all seeing all powerful God.

Just like we dont know what it’s like before we’re born or even conceived
It will be just the same when we’re dead.

Like I said how otherwise rational intelligent people believe in a God
Is beyond me - it’s like rational thinking goes out the window.

Yes my humanitarian God is Better than your humanitarian god
And if you don’t believe & pray to my god he says I should kill you.  ::)
And millions or rather billions believe this..!!!

Primemuscle

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #73 on: July 08, 2018, 04:35:22 PM »
There is No Mythical God
That’s the simple & correct answer.

How otherwise rational & intelligent people can believe in
A Mythical God who does Fcuk all other than bring death
Destruction & misery too many is beyond Me.

Agreed. One might instead believe in a God, mythical or not, that brings life, comfort, joy and peace. Man brings destruction and misery onto himself.

Primemuscle

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Re: MOS should stay
« Reply #74 on: July 08, 2018, 04:39:15 PM »

And if you don’t believe & pray to my god he says I should kill you.  ::)
And millions or rather billions believe this..!!!


Count me out! that God does not exist in my rationale thoughts.