Can We talk about Building Solid "clean" Mass?

[Lugar]

eating clean will NOT produce the results many want to see.  I've done it and it wasn't until college where all I cared about was 300g of protein and everything else was fair game, did I make any gains......I rarely did cardio then and I trained 5x a week....I was up to 240, lean (maybe 12%) but also 20-23 years old so my metabolism was rampid......

Now, my test levels are very low, so my main concern is if I dont supplement an HRT dose, wont most of the excess cals just be stored as fat?  I was put on androderm, did nothing, so I dont think 200mg every 10 days is a crazy idea.  It's not a full blow, resort to roids, idea....it's to help me muster through the low test/lethargic feeling.  PLUS, having the feeling of gear running through my body and not wanting to blow my hard earned money, will hopefully give me the mindset to EAT EAT EAT...2,900 cals is too damn low......look at this, this is what I've been doing for exctly 6 weeks......:

MEAL      FOOD      AMOUNT       CALORIES        PROTEIN        CARBS        FAT

630-700      OATS      1 CUP       180        5        54        6
      MUSCLE MILK      1 SCOOP       175        16        3        9
      WGG WHITES      1 CUP       121        26        3        1
                     476        47     -       60     -       16
                                    
10-1030      WHOLE WHEAT BREAD      4 PIECES       220        6        40        3
      TUNA      2 CANS       200        42        -          4
                                                  
                                                  
                   420        48        40        7
                                    
1230-130      CHIKEN      4 OZ       175        32        1        4
      BEEF      4 OZ       175           21        -          8
      BROWN RICE      1 CUP(COOKED)       220        5        45        3
      GREENS      LARGE       125        2        20        2
                   695        60        66        17
                                    
300-330      CHICK      40Z       175        32        1        4
      WHOLE WHEAT PASTA      2OZ COOKED       210        9        40        2
      BEEF      40Z       45        10        2        1
                     60        7        5        -   
                   490        58        48        7
5:30      TRAIN                              
                                     
7:30:00      NOT SURE               400        40        50           4
                                                  
                   400        40        50        4
                                       
800-8:30      NOT SURE                                           
                     400        30        40        13
                                                  
                   400        30        40        13
930                                    
      MUSCLE MILK      1 SCOOP       175        16        3        9
      PEANUTS      1/4 CUP (20)       120        4        5        10
      MILK      1 CUP       100        10        6        3
      COTTAGE CHEESE      1 SERVING       100        20        4        2
                   495        50        18        24
                                    
            TOTALS       3,376        333     -       322     -       88

[gibberj2]

you were up to 240 pounds lean?

[MCWAY]

no clue. when you  made those measurements of food did you just do it random? they say to get big you should eat an amount of calories 18X your weight. For you 18X165=2970 

That diet you got did you put it together recently for the purpose of getting bigger? i'd measure all bodyparts, weigh myself and take my bodyfat; keep the diet like it is and in 2 weeks measure everything again and start changing it then.

WTF is right when I tried "bulking" I ended up with a 36 inch waist and no more muscle than I would have had if I ate less and cleaner. muscle doesn't grow overnight so eating insane amounts of food won't have it all go into the muscles. I'm still trying to lose 3 inches on my waist. when i got up to 192 i thought i was big but i was just fat. had i been 180 my muscles would have been the exact same size. before i started working out or eating more my waist was 28. I'm trying to get it back to 30.

You, Mr. President (Purge), and Lugar, are all correct in your assessments. As I've aged, I've found I need fewer calories to gain size. That's why I had to make the difficult decision to eliminate one of my favorite type of supplements, weight gainers, from my arsenal.

But, as I've said on several occasions, I lived off those gainers back 10 years ago. That's how I gained 21 lbs. and three months, going from 189 to 210 in 1996. That's how I first broke the 240-lb. mark in 1997 and nearly hit 250.

I have to watch my waist now, as the days inhaling 5000-6500 calories, as I did in college, are over for me (thank the Lord). Getting back to 240 doesn't take as many calories as it did the first time I reached the mark.

[Lugar]

right but Im only 30, and supplement with 200mg of test, I should be able to still get away with 4,000 cals esp. at 6'2, no???  I just got to learn to live without abs, a belly Im not concerned with, no abs blows...

[MCWAY]

right but Im only 30, and supplement with 200mg of test, I should be able to still get away with 4,000 cals esp. at 6'2, no???  I just got to learn to live without abs, a belly Im not concerned with, no abs blows...

You don't have to live without abs. They won't be razor-sharp, but with the right diet and an ample amount of (I have to say that, because you tend to go nuts with the) cardio, you should be in good shape.

I may not be able to help you with the first part of your post, because I don't use anabolics. I do believe you can hit 200 lbs. and have good abs, without drugs. How many calories that will take? You'll just have to do it via trial and error.

[gibberj2]

this changes everything if you've been 240 at 12% bf why do you need any sort of advice here? especially from me. did you juice a lot back then? and how in the world did you lose like 65 pounds of muscle?  MCWAY he said he weighed 240 at 12% bodyfat. does that sound right to you?

[Lugar]

Screw u!  Dont ask him if it sounds right......I said it's where I was in college and thats where I was.  I played football, was extremely active, and then 10 years later, found myself in an office, sitting all day, wihich halted my progress immidiately.  I was look =ing for support to get over the fat feeling, and Mac has been perfect with that.  Thanks buddy!  As for you Gib, I dont care if you believe me or not, but it['s extremely rude and immateure to ask someone else if it sounds right....why the hell would I lie?  I'm gonna get throught this, just need some support......no need to respond if you are just going to beat me into the wall.....

[WOOO]

i was surprised to see you do so much cardio.... if you are trying to gain mass, wouldn't it make sense to put it on the shelf so to speak?  focus on lifting and eating

[gibberj2]

i'm not into tearing people down. if you've seen me i don't look like much myself. the way you've sounded for a while here is like someone who needs to learn basics. that MAY NOT BE THE CASE but if you were 240 in college you don't need help... just do what you did back then. what i don't understand is how did you lose 65 pounds of muscle? how long did you go without training? how much did you weigh before you ever picked up a weight? how did you get so big back then?

[MCWAY]

Screw u!  Dont ask him if it sounds right......I said it's where I was in college and thats where I was.  I played football, was extremely active, and then 10 years later, found myself in an office, sitting all day, wihich halted my progress immidiately.  I was look =ing for support to get over the fat feeling, and Mac has been perfect with that.  Thanks buddy!  As for you Gib, I dont care if you believe me or not, but it['s extremely rude and immateure to ask someone else if it sounds right....why the hell would I lie?  I'm gonna get throught this, just need some support......no need to respond if you are just going to beat me into the wall.....

You're welcome. I'm not trying to encourage any static between you and Gibber. I'm simply addressing your current situation, not your former one.

Again, you must prioritize your goals. You can bulk up, without leaving your abs at the door. I'm learning this as I go as well. This is a learning process for me too, as for the past year, I've had to wean myself off weight gainers after coming to the realization that I don't need the amount of calories I once did to get bigger.

You might want to go "old-school" and use a type of dieting strategy made famous by the "Iron Guru", Vince Gironda. He would have his clients eat high-protein, high calories foods and train intensely for three weeks, followed by a one-week period of light training and low-calorie, low-protein (mainly vegetables) diet to cleanse out the system.

That's just a basic overview. I'd get one of his book or check out an old issue of MuscleMag International to get more details.

And, there's the use of a fat-burner, while you're doing this.

[gibberj2]

i'm doing gironda stuff right now mcway. i've had to learn a lot too. i haven't gained any muscle in the last 6-8 months because i've gotten to a certain weight and tried to cut and lost a ton of muscle. i've made 3 unsucessfull attempts this time around I'm doing pretty low carb, lotta steak, egg, and salad. protein powder with a little bit of half and half. my training is just normal lifting. nothing different and i haven't lost any muscle yet but the waist is going down and i'm getting more defined.

Lugar I think you don't need a lot of help as far as methods on HOW to do it. just encouragement to get back in and stay consistant. a lot of times people blame the diet or training but they are not being consistant.

[Lugar]

thnx bros...if i get fat, I get fat....f it.....how old are you guys?

[gibberj2]

im 24. sorry if i disrespected before. you worry too much. you won't get fat if you keep track of all your numbers every couple weeks.

[MCWAY]

thnx bros...if i get fat, I get fat....f it.....how old are you guys?

I turned 33 just over a month ago.

[triple_pickle]

gibber, you can easily lose a shitload of muscle when you quit working out.  i had an 8-year break from weightlifting and went from 200 lbs down to 170 lbs.  i was active all the time, just switched to running and swimming.  when you stop training, your muscles are crying for food and if you keep on eating as if you were still training, you will turn into a fat bastard (happened to some of my friends).  i had chosen a different way: cut on food and became a skinny bastard.  still, losing 65 lbs is a lot, lugar.  you must have done nothing but sitting at the computer all day.  or over-doing cardio.

do not obsess over your abs, lugar.  they still will be super strong, just hidden under a layer of fat.  treat abs just as you do other muscle groups: do WEIGHTED knee/hip raises, sit-ups, crunches, etc., whatever makes you happy.  when it is time to cut, you will be surprised....

[Lugar]

LOL...sit in front of the computer all day....I friggn wish I could do that........to be honest, I competed my ass off and trainned like no tomorrow....HOWEVER, it was for a triatholon for Luekemia....then it was two tris, then three...then before I knew it, I had done 4 tris, training 2x a day, lifting and doing crazy cardio, trying to eat as much as possble, but it wasnt easy.  To say the least...so I dwindled away.  Now I want to kill peopl thqat say (arent you a runner???), but it's not their fault, that's how I look...like an anerexic runner.  I'm not concerned with losing ab strength, I am concerned with the loss of the defenition.  Ever heard of skinny fat?  Something I don not want to have happen!!!

Do you know what it's like to go from bench 350 and the end of your chest session to struggling with 135?  It's a shot through the heart.  I know it would help if I ate and took some time off, but thats not in my vocab.........every every every single morning, it's 30 minutes of walk on 10.5 incline at 3.0 - 3.5 speed............not crazy, but enough to make me dtired.  That or 3.7mph and 7.5 ramp.....every moning....then, every single day...5pm...it's weights, delts, back,legs,arms,chest repeat......

I just want to knowck it down.  I also want to understand three philospohies.  Post workout, prebed and separating carbs/fats in meals.  If I could get my prebed meal down, without feeling like it's gonna make me fat, I'd be in heaven.  Problem is, I eat this meal as I lay down and read, so I could possibly crash within minutes of finishing....is this a bad thing??  Anyone else do it?

It's

1/2 tub cottage cheese slightly frozen
1 24oz casein/milk/egg white shake
and 15-20 peanuts or almonds....thoguhts?

[danielson]

Mr. Lugar, please don't listen to Gibberish. He doesn't workout. He comes on here to mess with people. He may have the worst build I have ever seen. I believe he is 190 pounds at 30% bodyfat. You seem like a good guy, Lugar, I have read a few of your posts, you just want honest advice, I just thought you should know that Giibberish is built exactly like the fat kid everyone picked on when we were young. Shame on you Gibberish.

[SS]

Mr. Lugar, please don't listen to Gibberish. He doesn't workout. He comes on here to mess with people. He may have the worst build I have ever seen. I believe he is 190 pounds at 30% bodyfat. You seem like a good guy, Lugar, I have read a few of your posts, you just want honest advice, I just thought you should know that Giibberish is built exactly like the fat kid everyone picked on when we were young. Shame on you Gibberish.

hahaha! brutal acne!

[danielson]

hahaha! brutal acne!

yes, that is the kid who has been giving you advice. Shame on you Gibberish. Mr. Lugar want good advice, not advice on how to look like a piece of shit. Lugar, I assure you not everyone on here are pranksters, like this fat little kid.

[gibberj2]

so you lost all that muscle by becoming a tri-athlete? you don't necessarily have a big problem then. just stop what made you lose all your muscle before and start doing what you did before to get big. if your testosterone is REALLY low it should come up by eating real good and lifting weights just don't over do it and stay away from the "cardio". you won't get fat if you keep track every 2 or 3 weeks of how fat you get that way you can keep it in check. Danielson we've seen superstar. he's an old fat juicer who can lift a lot of weight. where's your picture? mine are here and I've got pictures from 120lbs though i was even smaller when i started to 185 or something. the one this jackass posted is 180. I'm 178.5 now and the waist is coming down more.

[danielson]

so you lost all that muscle by becoming a tri-athlete? you don't necessarily have a big problem then. just stop what made you lose all your muscle before and start doing what you did before to get big. if your testosterone is REALLY low it should come up by eating real good and lifting weights just don't over do it and stay away from the "cardio". you won't get fat if you keep track every 2 or 3 weeks of how fat you get that way you can keep it in check. Danielson we've seen superstar. he's an old fat juicer who can lift a lot of weight. where's your picture? mine are here and I've got pictures from 120lbs though i was even smaller when i started to 185 or something. the one this jackass posted is 180. I'm 178.5 now and the waist is coming down more.

Gibberish, you are still trying to play this one off?

[gibberj2]

i've heard about you being some kinda drug addict. while i dont pay attention to that kinda stuff you were either born stupid or made stupid by drugs. "play this one off" ??   ususally when people "play something off" is when they pretend something didn't happen or whatever. i am in no way doing that. any picture of me that are here were put by me so why would i care if they are here? you still haven't posted a picture. in my gym there is a karate class and not only can none of them fight they are all out of shape. are you one like that? i'm addressing everything head on so what is this "playing this one off" stuff? clearly you being a guy who's new here with 34 posts per day you don't even know what you're saying any more.

[danielson]

i've heard about you being some kinda drug addict. while i dont pay attention to that kinda stuff you were either born stupid or made stupid by drugs. "play this one off" ??   ususally when people "play something off" is when they pretend something didn't happen or whatever. i am in no way doing that. any picture of me that are here were put by me so why would i care if they are here? you still haven't posted a picture. in my gym there is a karate class and not only can none of them fight they are all out of shape. are you one like that? i'm addressing everything head on so what is this "playing this one off" stuff? clearly you being a guy who's new here with 34 posts per day you don't even know what you're saying any more.

I tried reading it, but it was all "gibberish".

[gibberj2]

OK now i know what category you're in here.

[SS]

Danielson we've seen superstar. he's an old fat juicer who can lift a lot of weight.

I resent that