Author Topic: A test of Getbigger's knowledge of the resistance curve: Single dumbbell lateral  (Read 11675 times)

Thin Lizzy

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How many pages have you guys spent arguing over subjective terms?

Let me break all this which is the best way to train rocket science bullshit down.

All training works stop doing multivariable quadratic equations and just go to the damn gym

I recall hearing Brad Schoenfled on podcast. He’s done several studies on hypertrophy. He found at the difference between 20 reps and 6-8 rep sets very small.

It’s really about getting some regular volume with somewhat challenging resistance.

You hear this a lot in distance running, whether it’s better to do 8x 400m or 4x 800 when it’s basically the same thing.

Humble Narcissist

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How many pages have you guys spent arguing over subjective terms?

Let me break all this which is the best way to train rocket science bullshit down.

All training works stop doing multivariable quadratic equations and just go to the damn gym
Because it is not a subjective term.  You are confusing intensity with best way to train.  It has nothing to do with one way being better than another.  Intensity has a specific meaning in strength science and it is: % of 1 rep max.

Bro science has bastardized the term intensity to mean "good workout," "hard work," "training to failure," etc, etc.

A trainer can have a very low intensity, high volume workout and still have a hard workout or a good workout.  A person can train very high volume to failure with the set being very low intensity.

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wes

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Haha the rep he hit “failure” after didn’t even slow down
And hev just stood up as opposed to hitting the last rep.

Then these fool wonder why they make no gains.

pellius

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One more citation on exercise intensity from Wikipedia:
Intensity, volume, and frequency
Three important variables of strength training are intensity, volume, and frequency. Intensity refers to the amount of work required to achieve the activity and is proportional to the mass of the weights being lifted. Volume refers to the number of muscles worked, exercises, sets, and reps during a single session. Frequency refers to how many training sessions are performed per week.

These variables are important because they are all mutually conflicting, as the muscle only has so much strength and endurance, and takes time to recover due to microtrauma. Increasing one by any significant amount necessitates the decrease of the other two, e.g. increasing weight means a reduction of reps, and will require more recovery time and therefore fewer workouts per week. Trying to push too much intensity, volume and frequency will result in overtraining, and eventually lead to injury and other health issues such as chronic soreness and general lethargy, illness or even acute trauma such as avulsion fractures. A high-medium-low formula can be used to avoid overtraining, with either intensity, volume, or frequency being high, one of the others being medium, and the other being low. One example of this training strategy can be found in the following chart:

Type   High   Med   Low
Intensity (% of 1RM)   80–100%   40–70%   0–40%
Volume (per muscle)   3+ exercises   2 exercises   1 exercises
Sets   4+ sets   2–3 sets   1 set
Reps   20+ reps   8–15 reps   1–6 reps
Session frequency   4+ p/w   2–3 p/w   1 p/w

Notice in the chart what the specific definition is for intensity.   Intensity is the % of 1 rep max.  Exactly what I said at the beginning of this silly argument. The full Wikipedia article is here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_training#Intensity,_volume,_and_frequency

OK, now we are going into Flat Earth, David Icke -- reptilian hybrid territory. This is a jump the shark moment. I think my reputation is well known that I take debates seriously (maybe too seriously) and take it to the bitter agonizing end. But if I am suspect or believe that I am just debating a unrepentant and hopelessly irrational person then I will concede. It's pointless debating a nut case. (BTW, aren't you a Holocaust denier? Correct me if I am wrong because I know there are a few here that bitterly resent for my rabid support of Israel and the Jewish people).

Anyway, in regard to your sources. You keep talking about "every strength coach". Who exactly and how are you so intimate with their training protocol? The way you speak you present yourself as some authority with real hands-on experience working with professional athletes like Coach.

And I notice you did a bit of cherry-picking on Wikipedia. When I wiki-ed intensity they gave me this definition:

Intensity is the amount of physical power (expressed as a percentage of the maximal oxygen consumption) that the body uses when performing an activity. For example, exercise intensity defines how hard the body has to work to walk a mile in 20 minutes.

This is measured in units of METs which for our purposed doesn't have to be defined in detail only that it can be used as a comparison to various activities. And this what this article does. It starts with sleep, walking, jogging, and so on with the increase in METs corresponding to the amount of physical effort, the V02, i.e. oygen consumption.

Nothing is said about weights or resistance.

Remember, pretty much anybody can post a write-up on Wiki. It is not surprising that the explanation that you cut and pasted for our edification, if not amusement, came with this disclaimer:

[iThis article needs more medical references for verification or relies too heavily on primary sources. Please review the contents of the article and add the appropriate references if you can. Unsourced or poorly sourced material may be challenged and removed.[/i]

For a more concise definition of intensity, we can refer to the National  Academy of Sports Medicine:

Training intensity refers to the level of effort a person exerts during exercise relative to his or her maximum effort."

Note how they make reference to absolute intensity and relative intensity.
"relative to his or her maximum."

For example, if Shizzo and I run a mile in 8 minutes. The absolute intensity would be the same. Distance covered during a specific time frame is the same. But relative intensity would be quite different. Shizzo would be wheezing and near collapse trying to complete that mile while I'll do it while being on my cell phone watching "The Simpsons" reruns.

pellius

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My argument was about intensity.  I have offered evidence by strength coaches proving my point.  Here is a bodybuilding trainer spelling it out for you.
Factor #6 TRAINING SESSION VOLUME and INTENSITY
These two factors play a major role in any
weight training program. Traditionally, training
volume is emphasized by bodybuilders who want
to maximize muscle size. Intensity is emphasized
by power lifters, or strength-oriented athletes.
Training volume can be defined basically as the
measure of total weight being lifted in a workout.
It is determined by multiplying the weight being lifted by the repetitions and number of sets
performed together (Volume = weight ∞ reps
∞ sets). For example, if you bench-pressed 175
pounds for 5 sets of 8 repetitions each your total
volume would be:
  EXAMPLE
175 lbs. x 8 reps x 5 sets = 7,000 lbs.
Intensity, on the other hand, measures the average weight lifted during a workout. Intensity
is determined by dividing the volume of weight lifted in a session by the total number of repetitions performed. For example:
   EXAMPLE B
First Set: 225 lbs. x 10 reps = 2,250 lbs.
Second Set: 275 lbs. x 6 reps = 1,650 lbs.
Third Set: 325 lbs. x 4 reps = 1,300 lbs.
Total Volume = 5,200 lbs.
Total Intensity = 5,200 lbs. 20 reps = 260 lbs.
Total intensity for the first example (A) equals 175 lbs. simply because the same weight was
used for each set.
The definition of high-intensity training became confused by many during the 1980s. Some
26 BIG BEYOND BELIEF
misunderstood that “high-intensity” training meant you were putting out more effort or “training harder.” This in incorrect. In fact, if you were to duplicate the above workouts you might
well find the higher volume workout to be much more strenuous and difficult to perform than
the higher “intensity” session.
On the other hand, do not make the mistake of thinking that you could gain maximum muscle
growth by performing endless repetitions with little or no weight (no volume). This would essentially amount to calisthenics and we know this would not build a high-degree of muscle.
Understand that the terms volume and intensity are relative and our Training Model dictates
that a proper combination of both be used. As you will discover upon integrating the Big
Beyond Belief workouts, volume and intensity must be strategically adjusted over time. This
is accomplished through the application of micro-periodization, hyperacceleration, and hyperadaptation. These techniques will be explained later in this chapter.

This is utter nonsense. I can't see how a rational person is unable to see all the holes in this argument.

First off, what coaches have provided evidence? I've read nothing but opinions. My definition, through Wiki, measures actual V02 max. Please post these coaches' names and their proof.

Although I can go into much further detail and continue to torture others Matt Canning style I'll try to be concise and just address this one statement with the assumption others have completely read your post so I don't have to get into detail.

"Total intensity for the first example (A) equals 175 lbs. simply because the same weight was used for each set."

So "175 lbs. x 8 reps x 5 sets = 7,000 lbs" is the formula used to measure a person's exact level of intensity. That's it. An irrefutable mathematical law. Nothing is said about the time involved. Are those five sets done in 5 minutes or in 50 minutes. Does it matter? What about absolute versus relative intensity. If Shizzo performs that feat in 15 minutes and prime Keven Levrone does the exact same are you going to argue that they both trained with the same absolute intensity?

pellius

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Sent you a pic showing off my Power Clean “prowess”.

🤣

Let me know how your knee is coming along.

As mentioned in my reply, I was hoping for a motion-packed video, but from the picture your form looks flawless. Cool straps. I also mentioned that I am not a big fan of explosive-type movements. That is when you are far more prone to injury and you are not working your muscles throughout its full range, i.e, continuous tension. A lot of force in the beginning of the movement and then momentum takes over with little muscle contraction. It's the difference between velocity and acceleration. Press your fist against a brick wall as hard as you can versus punching that brick wall as hard as you can. What is more likely to break your hand?

pellius

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How many pages have you guys spent arguing over subjective terms?

Let me break all this which is the best way to train rocket science bullshit down.

All training works stop doing multivariable quadratic equations and just go to the damn gym

Some of us have moved out of our mom's house a long time ago and have to work for a living. In other words, some of us have become adults.

Does your mom give your allowance on a weekly or monthly schedule?

Humble Narcissist

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This is utter nonsense. I can't see how a rational person is unable to see all the holes in this argument.

First off, what coaches have provided evidence? I've read nothing but opinions. My definition, through Wiki, measures actual V02 max. Please post these coaches' names and their proof.

Although I can go into much further detail and continue to torture others Matt Canning style I'll try to be concise and just address this one statement with the assumption others have completely read your post so I don't have to get into detail.

"Total intensity for the first example (A) equals 175 lbs. simply because the same weight was used for each set."

So "175 lbs. x 8 reps x 5 sets = 7,000 lbs" is the formula used to measure a person's exact level of intensity. That's it. An irrefutable mathematical law. Nothing is said about the time involved. Are those five sets done in 5 minutes or in 50 minutes. Does it matter? What about absolute versus relative intensity. If Shizzo performs that feat in 15 minutes and prime Keven Levrone does the exact same are you going to argue that they both trained with the same absolute intensity?
I used Leo Costa's example because he is a bodybuilder and not a lifter.  I used examples of lifters earlier.  This example is how they register intensity as do strength coaches.  You can believe anything you want.


Humble Narcissist

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OK, now we are going into Flat Earth, David Icke -- reptilian hybrid territory. This is a jump the shark moment. I think my reputation is well known that I take debates seriously (maybe too seriously) and take it to the bitter agonizing end. But if I am suspect or believe that I am just debating a unrepentant and hopelessly irrational person then I will concede. It's pointless debating a nut case. (BTW, aren't you a Holocaust denier? Correct me if I am wrong because I know there are a few here that bitterly resent for my rabid support of Israel and the Jewish people).

Anyway, in regard to your sources. You keep talking about "every strength coach". Who exactly and how are you so intimate with their training protocol? The way you speak you present yourself as some authority with real hands-on experience working with professional athletes like Coach.

And I notice you did a bit of cherry-picking on Wikipedia. When I wiki-ed intensity they gave me this definition:

Intensity is the amount of physical power (expressed as a percentage of the maximal oxygen consumption) that the body uses when performing an activity. For example, exercise intensity defines how hard the body has to work to walk a mile in 20 minutes.

This is measured in units of METs which for our purposed doesn't have to be defined in detail only that it can be used as a comparison to various activities. And this what this article does. It starts with sleep, walking, jogging, and so on with the increase in METs corresponding to the amount of physical effort, the V02, i.e. oygen consumption.

Nothing is said about weights or resistance.

Remember, pretty much anybody can post a write-up on Wiki. It is not surprising that the explanation that you cut and pasted for our edification, if not amusement, came with this disclaimer:

[iThis article needs more medical references for verification or relies too heavily on primary sources. Please review the contents of the article and add the appropriate references if you can. Unsourced or poorly sourced material may be challenged and removed.[/i]

For a more concise definition of intensity, we can refer to the National  Academy of Sports Medicine:

Training intensity refers to the level of effort a person exerts during exercise relative to his or her maximum effort."

Note how they make reference to absolute intensity and relative intensity.
"relative to his or her maximum."

For example, if Shizzo and I run a mile in 8 minutes. The absolute intensity would be the same. Distance covered during a specific time frame is the same. But relative intensity would be quite different. Shizzo would be wheezing and near collapse trying to complete that mile while I'll do it while being on my cell phone watching "The Simpsons" reruns.
My example on Wikipedia has over 50 footnotes to research.  The chart specifically is dealing with intensity in strength training.  Your example is dealing with VO2 max not strength intensity.

I have provided example after example of the definition of intensity.  All you do is throw insults and back nothing up with anything other than your opinion.

bhank

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Some of us have moved out of our mom's house a long time ago and have to work for a living. In other words, some of us have become adults.

Does your mom give your allowance on a weekly or monthly schedule?

I paid cash for my house. It is the 6th home I have purchased. Have you ever heard of K.I.S.S?? You are all making this way too complicated. Keep it Simple Stupid

Most of the so called experts you all quote like rocket scientist were just gym rats trying to sell something. Menzter and HIT was just an advertisement for Arthur Jones to sell gym equipment none of the so called experiments were real they were all setup like before and after pics and you guys act like it was Nasa engineering 40 years later

Guys talking about 1 working set not mentioning the 5 warm up sets they did going super heavy high intensity and destroying your CNS every workout is not productive

You know how you can tell when someone doesn't know what they are talkign about they start mentioning studies with Mentzer and Jones form the 1970's or they pull out a godamn notebook in the gym to write down every rep why not bring a 10 key calculator so you can get exactly 72.369 percentage of your last lift?? And percentage of your max? Your max changes daily. At a certain point you need to listen to what is going on inside your body and not rely on outside books and calculations

Do what you can then go home eat and rest repeat

IroNat

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No pain...no gain!


wes

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I paid cash for my house. It is the 6th home I have purchased. Have you ever heard of K.I.S.S?? You are all making this way too complicated. Keep it Simple Stupid

Most of the so called experts you all quote like rocket scientist were just gym rats trying to sell something. Menzter and HIT was just an advertisement for Arthur Jones to sell gym equipment none of the so called experiments were real they were all setup like before and after pics and you guys act like it was Nasa engineering 40 years later

Guys talking about 1 working set not mentioning the 5 warm up sets they did going super heavy high intensity and destroying your CNS every workout is not productive

You know how you can tell when someone doesn't know what they are talkign about they start mentioning studies with Mentzer and Jones form the 1970's or they pull out a godamn notebook in the gym to write down every rep why not bring a 10 key calculator so you can get exactly 72.369 percentage of your last lift?? And percentage of your max? Your max changes daily. At a certain point you need to listen to what is going on inside your body and not rely on outside books and calculations

Do what you can then go home eat and rest repeat
You wouldn`t make it through one of my easiest workouts, that`s how intense it would be.

I had a great training partner some time back...................c ompetitive bodybuilder who looked great.

The guy was in his early  40`s....I was heading towards 50... we were doing tri-sets for arms non-stop adding weight to each tri-set.... and on my third set of the tri-set,he was squatting on the gym floor wheezing.

Nevermind a leg or shoulder session......you would come away knowing what intensity is and knowing you just tried to train with a fucking animal.

Also trained with a 22 year old kid who loved to train hard.....we did legs in the basement of the gym and everyday, not jut on leg days but leg days were the best,I would ask him...."What`s it like to be trained into the ground by an old man"?

All he would ay as he literally crawled upstairs was ...."Fuck you old man " !!

Then he`d smile cuz he knew we just trained our guts out.

Fuck percentages, get in and race the clock getting the most work done in the shortest amount of time possible then you`ll know what pain and what intensity truly is.

bhank

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You wouldn`t make it through one of my easiest workouts, that`s how intense it would be.

I had a great training partner some time back...................c ompetitive bodybuilder who looked great.

The guy was in his early  40`s....I was heading towards 50... we were doing tri-sets for arms non-stop adding weight to each tri-set.... and on my third set of the tri-set,he was squatting on the gym floor wheezing.

Nevermind a leg or shoulder session......you would come away knowing what intensity is and knowing you just tried to train with a fucking animal.

Also trained with a 22 year old kid who loved to train hard.....we did legs in the basement of the gym and everyday, not jut on leg days but leg days were the best,I would ask him...."What`s it like to be trained into the ground by an old man"?

All he would ay as he literally crawled upstairs was ...."Fuck you old man " !!

Then he`d smile cuz he knew we just trained our guts out.

Fuck percentages, get in and race the clock getting the most work done in the shortest amount of time possible then you`ll know what pain and what intensity truly is.

The goal is results throwing up in a bucket is not the result I am looking to achieve

wes

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The goal is results throwing up in a bucket is not the result I am looking to achieve
You`re not getting results on your chest and back...........arms and delts look good but look the same..............big gut .....leg have progressed....so prop there.

There is a big dfiffereance between those who train and those who merely workout.

Sorry you "workout" like a pussy and dont try to make any inroads to gaining.

Van_Bilderass

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And hev just stood up as opposed to hitting the last rep.

Then these fool wonder why they make no gains.
Haha the rep he hit “failure” after didn’t even slow down

One reason this is interesting is that Schoenfeld is involved in a lot of training/hypertrophy research. But when I've looked at some of the routines they look impossible to do, unless you lift like Schoenfeld. IOW the studies are pretty worthless.

bhank

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You`re not getting results on your chest and back...........arms and delts look good but look the same..............big gut .....leg have progressed....so prop there.

There is a big dfiffereance between those who train and those who merely workout.

Sorry you "workout" like a pussy and dont try to make any inroads to gaining.

My upper body is not progressing because I can't train heavy yet it is maintaining and yes legs are making gains. I said from day one most of my gains will go into my legs. The legs have more potential if I can train them without causing injury. I only hve a big gut when I am trying to make a heavy weigh in. I take a day or two off eating to clear everything about once a week. Not everyday is a heavy eating day. After I touch a heavy weight I stop chill let body adjust and digestive system rest then go again

wes

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The goal is results throwing up in a bucket is not the result I am looking to achieve
You wouldn`t throw up unless you ate an entire peach cobbler with a side of pizza before you hit the gym.

I puked only a handful of times in decades of training and all on leg days......doesn`t happen all that much only in Weider magazines

wes

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My upper body is not progressing because I can't train heavy yet it is maintaining and yes legs are making gains. I said from day one most of my gains will go into my legs. The legs have more potential if I can train them without causing injury. I only hve a big gut when I am trying to make a heavy weigh in. I take a day or two off eating to clear everything about once a week. Not everyday is a heavy eating day. After I touch a heavy weight I stop chill let body adjust and digestive system rest then go again
You dont have to train heavy,do super-sets with no rest for 10 -12 reps.

Breaking down tissue, eating, and resting builds muscle not training heavy.

Of course you should always use a weight that` sufficiently heavy for the reps you are shooting for but you dont have to do a single on the bench with 505 to build muscle.

You should know this mr. excuse maker.

Try drop-sets, running dumbell the rack, pre-exhaust ets.......there are tons of stuff you could do to work around your injuries as most of these principles dont allow you to go all that heavy.

wes

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My upper body is not progressing because I can't train heavy yet it is maintaining and yes legs are making gains. I said from day one most of my gains will go into my legs. The legs have more potential if I can train them without causing injury. I only hve a big gut when I am trying to make a heavy weigh in. I take a day or two off eating to clear everything about once a week. Not everyday is a heavy eating day. After I touch a heavy weight I stop chill let body adjust and digestive system rest then go again
Having a heavy weigh in day is just plain old dumb as you will weigh far less in the morning.....the weight gain is not muscle and I know your argument for this and it`s bullshit.

It takes time, not blowing up each night like the Michelin Man.

bhank

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You dont have to train heavy,do super-sets with no rest for 10 -12 reps.

Breaking down tissue, eating, and resting builds muscle not training heavy.

Of course you should always use a weight that` sufficiently heavy for the reps you are shooting for but you dont have to do a single on the bench with 505 to build muscle.

You should know this mr. excuse maker.

Try drop-sets, running dumbell the rack, pre-exhaust ets.......there are tons of stuff you could do to work around your injuries as most of these principles dont allow you to go all that heavy.

I can not yet train in the 10-12 rep range that will be too heavy also I amn noticing I am more vascular than ever in my chest and shoulders so some gains are being made

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I paid cash for my house. It is the 6th home I have purchased. Have you ever heard of K.I.S.S?? You are all making this way too complicated. Keep it Simple Stupid

Most of the so called experts you all quote like rocket scientist were just gym rats trying to sell something. Menzter and HIT was just an advertisement for Arthur Jones to sell gym equipment none of the so called experiments were real they were all setup like before and after pics and you guys act like it was Nasa engineering 40 years later

Guys talking about 1 working set not mentioning the 5 warm up sets they did going super heavy high intensity and destroying your CNS every workout is not productive

You know how you can tell when someone doesn't know what they are talkign about they start mentioning studies with Mentzer and Jones form the 1970's or they pull out a godamn notebook in the gym to write down every rep why not bring a 10 key calculator so you can get exactly 72.369 percentage of your last lift?? And percentage of your max? Your max changes daily. At a certain point you need to listen to what is going on inside your body and not rely on outside books and calculations

Do what you can then go home eat and rest repeat

 ;D

pellius

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My example on Wikipedia has over 50 footnotes to research.  The chart specifically is dealing with intensity in strength training.  Your example is dealing with VO2 max not strength intensity.

I have provided example after example of the definition of intensity.  All you do is throw insults and back nothing up with anything other than your opinion.

It doesn't matter how many "foot notes" that article had. It starts out with a disclaimer that the whole article wanting.

I have provided specific examples of intensity, even using hypotheticals to make it easier to understand. But, as I said before, you're over your head on this one.

The idea that one needs weights to determine intensity is just ridiculous. Watch the Olympics and notice how a world-class athlete will collapse to the ground in utter exhaustion after running a 440 and say that is not intensity.

pellius

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I paid cash for my house. It is the 6th home I have purchased. Have you ever heard of K.I.S.S?? You are all making this way too complicated. Keep it Simple Stupid

Most of the so called experts you all quote like rocket scientist were just gym rats trying to sell something. Menzter and HIT was just an advertisement for Arthur Jones to sell gym equipment none of the so called experiments were real they were all setup like before and after pics and you guys act like it was Nasa engineering 40 years later

Guys talking about 1 working set not mentioning the 5 warm up sets they did going super heavy high intensity and destroying your CNS every workout is not productive

You know how you can tell when someone doesn't know what they are talkign about they start mentioning studies with Mentzer and Jones form the 1970's or they pull out a godamn notebook in the gym to write down every rep why not bring a 10 key calculator so you can get exactly 72.369 percentage of your last lift?? And percentage of your max? Your max changes daily. At a certain point you need to listen to what is going on inside your body and not rely on outside books and calculations

Do what you can then go home eat and rest repeat

Whose cash? And how much did that house cost? You don't work, don't seem to have any marketable job skills, and you obviously not the brightest bulb on the block.

And, BTW, Dorian kept meticulous records of every workout he did.