Author Topic: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture  (Read 3202 times)

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Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« on: October 27, 2006, 09:53:34 AM »
he's on MSNBC right now getting grilled by the white house press corp. 

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2006, 09:59:37 AM »
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The White House said Friday that Vice President Dick Cheney was not talking about a torture technique known as "water boarding" when he said dunking terrorism suspects in water during questioning was a "no-brainer."

Human rights groups complained that Cheney's comments amounted to an endorsement of water boarding, in which the victim believes he is about to drown.

President Bush, asked about Cheney's comments, said, "This country doesn't torture. We're not going to torture." He spoke at an Oval Office meeting Friday with NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer.

Earlier, White House press secretary Tony Snow denied that Cheney had endorsed water boarding.

"You know as a matter of common sense that the vice president of the United States is not going to be talking about water boarding. Never would, never does, never will," Snow said. "You think Dick Cheney's going to slip up on something like this? No, come on."

In an interview Tuesday with WDAY of Fargo, North Dakota, Cheney was asked if "a dunk in water is a no-brainer if it can save lives."

The vice president replied, "Well, it's a no-brainer for me, but for a while there I was criticized as being the vice president for torture. We don't torture. That's not what we're involved in."


Peppered with questions about the remarks, Snow said Cheney did not interpret the question as referring to water boarding and the vice president did not make any comments about water boarding. He said the question put to Cheney was loosely worded.

The administration has repeatedly refused to say which techniques they believe are permitted under the new law. Asked to define a dunk in water, Snow said, "It's a dunk in the water."

Larry Cox, executive director of Amnesty International USA, said in a statement, "What's really a no-brainer is that no U.S. official, much less a vice president, should champion torture. Vice President Cheney's advocacy of water boarding sets a new human rights low at a time when human rights is already scraping the bottom of the Bush administration barrel."

Human Rights Watch said Cheney's remarks were "the Bush administration's first clear endorsement" of water boarding.


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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2006, 10:35:55 AM »
Front page story on CNN.com right now.  They are frothing at the mouth again.  Fox's front page story is about the huge fire that has killed four fire fighters. 

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2006, 10:41:09 AM »
for more on these late breaking developments, please visit CLUBBERS NO RULES SEX THREAD

 http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=103311.0

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2006, 12:03:52 PM »
These are historic times.  Never in US history has the Executive Branch just declared itself "allowed" to torture.  Now you have the VP admitting torture has been used.


I know it's okay right now.  But it just takes a little surprise legislation and suddenly torture is being used domestically.  Shit, a year ago, nobody would have believed we'd have the VP of the US bragging about how great waterboarding is.  Who knows what bullshit we'll be facing a year from now.

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2006, 12:09:52 PM »
These are historic times.  Never in US history has the Executive Branch just declared itself "allowed" to torture.  Now you have the VP admitting torture has been used.

Where did he admit this?

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2006, 12:17:12 PM »
Where did he admit this?

on a radio interview yesterday.  The white house press corp was drilling the heck outta Snow on it.  Snow denied the VP 'meant' that.  And the interview transcript above shows he immediately tried to revert to the company line of 'we do not torture' right after he said "well it's a no-brainer for me".

So... CIA leaks to press on FOX news that torture was very good for KSM and others.  Gitmo guards brag about it in bars.  Bush signs a bill making it legal.  bush refuses to answer if we do it.  Tony Snow refuses to deny we do it.  Then Cheney does this.

What the hell is wrong with people to condone torture?  Our media isn't reporting that many of the average 100 Iraqis killed daily in civil unrest show torture.  Our men, when captured, were fucking gutted a few months back.  We know a canadian was captured and tortured in Syria and was innocent.  We know there is still one man being held from 911 on a passport violation who has been tortured for 5 years.

What the hell is wrong with people to say this is okay?  It goes against the Geneva convention, it puts our soldiers in danger, and it won't be long until domestic noisemakers and troublemakers are bein waterboarded stateside.  I pity those without the conviction to look at the facts and realize this is huge and a terrible change in policy.

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2006, 12:20:35 PM »
on a radio interview yesterday.  The white house press corp was drilling the heck outta Snow on it.  Snow denied the VP 'meant' that.  And the interview transcript above shows he immediately tried to revert to the company line of 'we do not torture' right after he said "well it's a no-brainer for me".

So... CIA leaks to press on FOX news that torture was very good for KSM and others.  Gitmo guards brag about it in bars.  Bush signs a bill making it legal.  bush refuses to answer if we do it.  Tony Snow refuses to deny we do it.  Then Cheney does this.

What the hell is wrong with people to condone torture?  Our media isn't reporting that many of the average 100 Iraqis killed daily in civil unrest show torture.  Our men, when captured, were fucking gutted a few months back.  We know a canadian was captured and tortured in Syria and was innocent.  We know there is still one man being held from 911 on a passport violation who has been tortured for 5 years.

What the hell is wrong with people to say this is okay?  It goes against the Geneva convention, it puts our soldiers in danger, and it won't be long until domestic noisemakers and troublemakers are bein waterboarded stateside.  I pity those without the conviction to look at the facts and realize this is huge and a terrible change in policy.
You honestly think that the United States, in all previous wars, did NOT use torture tactics before the current administration?  Never?

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2006, 12:27:34 PM »
You honestly think that the United States, in all previous wars, did NOT use torture tactics before the current administration?  Never?

Men were prosecuted by the US govt after WW2 for waterboarding prisoners.

And of course, there are random incidents- there are random incidents of everything.  The problem here is that by legislating it, it can happen on a widespread, public scale.  Bush could just wake up one day and declare one million Americans to be enemy combatiants by being against the war (aiding the enemy with their words), and put them all in torture camps, and guess what, it's FUCKING LEGAL.  Military commissions act made it legal.  pres can declare any American an enemy combatant if he decides it, and there is no check and balance.

it probably won't happen.  but the fact that it COULD- the fact that any number of Americans could be put into a cell and waterboarded tomorrow with no legal recourse - depends solely upon how Bush feels any given morning.

Should any man have that much power with zero checks and balances?

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2006, 12:38:10 PM »
Men were prosecuted by the US govt after WW2 for waterboarding prisoners.

And of course, there are random incidents- there are random incidents of everything.  The problem here is that by legislating it, it can happen on a widespread, public scale.  Bush could just wake up one day and declare one million Americans to be enemy combatiants by being against the war (aiding the enemy with their words), and put them all in torture camps, and guess what, it's FUCKING LEGAL.  Military commissions act made it legal.  pres can declare any American an enemy combatant if he decides it, and there is no check and balance.

it probably won't happen.  but the fact that it COULD- the fact that any number of Americans could be put into a cell and waterboarded tomorrow with no legal recourse - depends solely upon how Bush feels any given morning.

Should any man have that much power with zero checks and balances?

I believe that we simply live in a world today where we are privy to so much more information than we actually need to know.    Though the media was privy to this type of information in decades past, there was some sense of responsibility and integrity.  That no longer exists. Had President Kennedy been listening in on conversations that Castro was having about a possible war, President Carter had tortured some Iranians who were known advocates of those who held American citizens hostages for information, or President Regan put a money trail on Russia's spending habits, would you have cared to know all of that back then?   What would your opinions be if you were privy to that kind of information from the media back then?  What would your thoughts be?

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2006, 12:46:20 PM »
heres what we should do
excuse me mr terrorist. plese tell us where those members of al-queda are hidding, or else you wont get a cup cake after dinner.

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2006, 12:54:03 PM »
heres what we should do
excuse me mr terrorist. plese tell us where those members of al-queda are hidding, or else you wont get a cup cake after dinner.
  Mr. I ??? ...

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2006, 01:35:29 PM »
I believe that we simply live in a world today where we are privy to so much more information than we actually need to know.    Though the media was privy to this type of information in decades past, there was some sense of responsibility and integrity.  That no longer exists. Had President Kennedy been listening in on conversations that Castro was having about a possible war, President Carter had tortured some Iranians who were known advocates of those who held American citizens hostages for information, or President Regan put a money trail on Russia's spending habits, would you have cared to know all of that back then?   What would your opinions be if you were privy to that kind of information from the media back then?  What would your thoughts be?

But Bush didn't get the powers to torture just bad guys.  No, he went ahead and gvae himself:
1) The power to torture all enemy combatants
2) The power to declare any American or non-American an enemy combatant
3) Zero oversight for what he does, and it is all done in secret.

A small problem would be Bush just wanting to torture foreigners. 
A larger problem is that he now has the power to have anyone in the USA tortured in secret, and executed in secret. 

Do you realize how fucking huge this is?  The Constitution designed our nation's system so that this COULD NOT happen- no one man would ever have unanswerable power.  And Bush has this power.

This isn't anti-bush, as I'd be equally against giving any Dem pres this power.  But no man needs the power to secretly torture and execute americans with no checks.  Agree?

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2006, 01:40:27 PM »
But Bush didn't get the powers to torture just bad guys.  No, he went ahead and gvae himself:
1) The power to torture all enemy combatants
2) The power to declare any American or non-American an enemy combatant
3) Zero oversight for what he does, and it is all done in secret.

A small problem would be Bush just wanting to torture foreigners. 
A larger problem is that he now has the power to have anyone in the USA tortured in secret, and executed in secret. 

Do you realize how fucking huge this is?  The Constitution designed our nation's system so that this COULD NOT happen- no one man would ever have unanswerable power.  And Bush has this power.

This isn't anti-bush, as I'd be equally against giving any Dem pres this power.  But no man needs the power to secretly torture and execute americans with no checks.  Agree?

And here's the kicker...

Even if you do trust Bush not to abuse this power... do you trust the next guy/girl?

Do you want Hilary Clinton or Joe biden to have blanket power to secretly torture and execute Americans he decides to call enemy combatants?

take the politics out of it.  Instead, think about constitutional law.

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2006, 03:11:20 PM »
take the politics out of it.  Instead, think about constitutional law.
This is my whole argument, man.  You CAN'T take the politics out of it.  The media IS the political machine now. 

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2006, 03:23:14 PM »
This is my whole argument, man.  You CAN'T take the politics out of it.  The media IS the political machine now. 

Now you're employing media and political diversions- focus...

Should ONE MAN have the legal ability to secretly torture and execute an unlimited number of Americans?
Yes or no?

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2006, 03:26:50 PM »
Now you're employing media and political diversions- focus...

Should ONE MAN have the legal ability to secretly torture and execute an unlimited number of Americans?
Yes or no?

Does he really? 

What evidence do you have and where are you getting the information?  What's the source?

See where I'm going?

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2006, 03:33:07 PM »
Does he really? 

What evidence do you have and where are you getting the information?  What's the source?

See where I'm going?

Read the Military Commissions Act of 2006.   It passed this month.   You think I'm bullshitting?  You're gonna be really surprised here.  Habeas Corpus has been removed from the Constitution, friend.  It's only by the good graces of the Executive Branch that any of us is still free.

And, we won't hear about when it is used.  Domestic threats being tortured and executed without ever seeing counsel or evidence are secret, of course. 

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2006, 03:37:33 PM »
Read the Military Commissions Act of 2006.   It passed this month.   You think I'm bullshitting?  You're gonna be really surprised here.  Habeas Corpus has been removed from the Constitution, friend.  It's only by the good graces of the Executive Branch that any of us is still free.


did you fall in the shower this morning and hit your head hard?  just wondering what's responsible for this new level of ridiculousness. haguar's syndrome?

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2006, 04:06:00 PM »
Now Congress has passed the Military Commissions Act. Amnesty International will work for the repeal of this legislation which violates human rights principles. Among other things, the Military Commissions Act will:

====Strip the US courts of jurisdiction to hear or consider habeas corpus appeals challenging the lawfulness or conditions of detention of anyone held in US custody as an "enemy combatant". Judicial review of cases would be severely limited. The law would apply retroactively, and thus could result in more than 200 pending appeals filed on behalf of Guantánamo detainees being thrown out of court.

====Prohibit any person from invoking the Geneva Conventions or their protocols as a source of rights in any action in any US court.

====Permit the executive to convene military commissions to try "alien unlawful enemy combatants", as determined by the executive under a dangerously broad definition, in trials that would provide foreign nationals so labeled with a lower standard of justice than US citizens accused of the same crimes. This would violate the prohibition on the discriminatory application of fair trial rights.

====Permit civilians captured far from any battlefield to be tried by military commission rather than civilian courts, contradicting international standards and case law.
Establish military commissions whose impartiality, independence and competence would be in doubt, due to the overarching role that the executive, primarily the Secretary of Defense, would play in their procedures and in the appointments of military judges and military officers to sit on the commissions.

====Permit, in violation of international law, the use of evidence extracted under cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, or as a result of "outrages upon personal dignity, particularly humiliating or degrading treatment", as defined under international law.

====Permit the use of classified evidence against a defendant, without the defendant necessarily being able effectively to challenge the "sources, methods or activities" by which the government acquired the evidence. This is of particular concern in light of the high level of secrecy and resort to national security arguments employed by the administration in the "war on terror", which have been widely criticized, including by the UN Committee against Torture and the Human Rights Committee. Amnesty International is concerned that the administration appears on occasion to have resorted to classification to prevent independent scrutiny of human rights violations.

====Give the military commissions the power to hand down death sentences, in contravention of international standards which only permit capital punishment after trials affording "all possible safeguards to ensure a fair trial". The clemency authority would be the President. President Bush has led a pattern of official public commentary on the presumed guilt of the detainees, and has overseen a system that has systematically denied the rights of detainees.

====Limit the right of charged detainees to be represented by counsel of their choosing.
Fail to provide any guarantee that trials will be conducted within a reasonable time.
Permit the executive to determine who is an "enemy combatant" under any "competent tribunal" established by the executive, and endorse the Combatant Status Review Tribunal (CSRT), the wholly inadequate administrative procedure that has been employed in Guantánamo to review individual detentions.

====Narrow the scope of the War Crimes Act by not expressly criminalizing acts that constitute "outrages upon personal dignity, particularly humiliating and degrading treatment" banned under Article 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions. Amnesty International believes that the USA has routinely failed to respect the human dignity of detainees in the "war on terror".

====Prohibit the US courts from using "foreign or international law" to inform their decisions in relation to the War Crimes Act. The President has the authority to "interpret the meaning and application of the Geneva Conventions". Under President Bush, the USA has shown a selective disregard for the Geneva Conventions and the absolute prohibition of torture or other ill-treatment.

====Endorse the administration’s "war paradigm" – under which the USA has selectively applied the laws of war and rejected international human rights law. The legislation would backdate the "war on terror" to before the 11 September 2001 in order to be able to try individuals in front of military commissions for "war crimes" committed before that date.

Al-Gebra

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2006, 04:07:42 PM »
240, i love your enthusiasm, but sometimes you're just batty . . . should I blame the $23k education?

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2006, 04:09:04 PM »
Doh!   ;D  Not to let the facts get in the way or anything, but anyone who takes the time to read the Act will see it doesn't apply to American citizens. 

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2006, 04:13:16 PM »
Doh!   ;D  Not to let the facts get in the way or anything, but anyone who takes the time to read the Act will see it doesn't apply to American citizens. 

Does the Executive branch have the power to declare ANY US citizen an enemy combatant without trial or lawyer?

Ask Jose Padilla.  What has he been charged with, and when is his trial?

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2006, 04:35:03 PM »
Does the Executive branch have the power to declare ANY US citizen an enemy combatant without trial or lawyer?

Ask Jose Padilla.  What has he been charged with, and when is his trial?

You tell me.  No.  Wait.  You haven't read the Act.   ::) 

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Re: Tony Snow denying Cheney admitted torture
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2006, 04:41:57 PM »
Yes, I have.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Commissions_Act_of_2006

And seriously, while Bush might be a really nice guy, the next person in office, or the person after that, could justify some very shitty things against americans.  This act removes the checks/balances.

AlG, you have strong opinions which I respect because you back them up.  I see much of this act as indefensible.