" All-loving God "

[loco]

I'm sorry OzmO!  I am not sure what it is that I said that offended you, but I apologize.  It was not my intention.

Really it was considered moral by ALL Greeks? 

OzmO, when I say "All Greeks", I don't mean all Greeks as individuals.  I meant all of Greece, as in Sparta, Athens, etc.,  at that time believed the practice was moral.  Most men did not have sex with boys, but most of the population believed that it was moral.  It is very possible that there were individuals that did not believe that it was moral.  But I said this in reply to your comments below, which according to history, are not correct.

From what i understand it was acceptable, i don;t know if it was considered moral.  Adultery is certainly part of our culture but we don't consider it moral.

Yes, it was considered moral.  Not all men had sex with boys back then.  That is not my point.  My point is that "most", if you want me to put it that way, believed that it was moral, even if they did not participate.

Remember not to confuse a small part of that culture with every man living in Greece at the time.

It wasn't a small part of that culture, OzmO.

Was there a poll? 
Did everyone fill out survey questions?

Did every Greek that ever lived during that time feel the exact same way?

Do you tell yourself this stuff and actually believe it?   

Do I tell myself what?  OzmO, this is world history.  Don't argue with me.  Argue with the historians.  I already told you, read about "Greek pederasty".  Then you'll see that it was considered "moral" and not by a "small" group of people.

Com on loco,  we are both educated people here.

While it may have been a part of main stream culture does not take away from the fact children were suffering and it is certain that people knew of their suffering INCLUDING the parents who eventually grew up.  And while most just repeated what happened to them, some didn't....much like child abuse from generation to generation.  I'm sure there were many families that didn't practice it.

It's common sense loco.  Common sense evolves.....  just society has.......like WITH SLAVES FOR EXAMPLE .......no thanks to the stupid BIBLE.

I agree that children were suffering.  My question to you was, what about the great majority who did not participate in the act, who were not aware of the child's suffering, who thought the practice was moral?  How would these people know that what they thought was moral was actually very immoral?  What sets the moral standard for them? 

Are you really asking me this question?
Were you lying about your education on another thread?

Tell you what,  I'm not going to even answer that.  Go find a place that treats children who have been molested, or go to Borders and buy a book on it.

You starting to look like you'll say anything to make a point in a debate.

Now, you completely confuse me here, OzmO.  What are you talking about?  I'm asking a very simple question and you, once again, refuse to answer.  That is exactly my point.  "Greek pederasty" is child molestation.  However, in those days, by Greek moral standards, it was not considered child molestation.  Why, OzmO?  Why wasn't it considered child molestation?  Where was the "god" inside then? 

You said that your criteria for knowing if something is moral or immoral is seeing a person's suffering.    I understand that.  But what if you are neither the "mentor" nor the "student" and you have no part at all in the act.  How would you have known?  What sets the moral standard then?  This is exactly what happened to that society.

here we go again, using "all" to make a point in describing poeple on something 2300 years ago.   Do you use "every" and "always" too when you get in arguments?

Here I did say "all of Greece", not all Greeks as individuals.  And again, I did not say that they all participated in the act.  I said that they, as a society accepted the act as good and moral.  By that I mean that it wasn't just one state or just one small group of people who accepted the act as moral.

What do you mean here?   

I was pointing out that 16th century Japan was screwed up and now it's progressed.  they don;t kill as a matter of practice when someone doesn't pay the appropriate respect to a samuri.

I wasn't talking about Japan.  I was talking about how societies before Greece did not consider having sex with boys something good and moral.  My point is that when it comes to morality, history shows us that societies can and have regressed at times.  It can and will probably continue to happen.  What is moral today may be immoral tomorrow, and vice versa.  So again, what sets the moral standards?

Again you are making an "all" assumption.  Remember i'm not saying you can't get morals from the Bible, i'm saying the bible isn't the 100% word of god.
If i was a greek, i would have been present in the act as a boy. 
So slavery is moral then?  You're ok with that?
Hey man,  I'm not trying to convince you of anything.  my point here is that the Bible is not the 100% word of god and you have done quite a lot in this debate to convince me of just that.

And also, it's too bad you do not have the confidence in yourself and of the tools and access to God which he gave you  from birth as his creation,   instead your security and direction lies in a book.

You see, murdering 3000 people is wrong.  Anyone can see that, just like they can with slavery.  But a person who's shut off part of his common sense (another great gift from God) will be sure find some alibi to justify it.

OzmO, pretend for a second that I'm not a Christian and that I do not believe in the Bible.  Pretend I'm a lost, confused soul who is looking for answers.  Pretend I'm asking you to give me a reason for your faith and to answer these questions for me.  Who sets the standards for morality?  What went wrong with ancient Greece?  What went wrong with so many Germans during WWII and their hate and obsession with annihilating Jews for no other reason than the fact that they are Jews?

That's all I was trying to do, to find out what "answers" you have.  To get you to give me a reason for your faith.

[OzmO]

I'm sorry OzmO!  I am not sure what it is that I said that offended you, but I apologize.  It was not my intention.

OzmO, when I say "All Greeks", I don't mean all Greeks as individuals.  I meant all of Greece, as in Sparta, Athens, etc.,  at that time believed the practice was moral.  Most men did not have sex with boys, but most of the population believed that it was moral.  It is very possible that there were individuals that did not believe that it was moral.  But I said this in reply to your comments below, which according to history, are not correct.

Yes, it was considered moral.  Not all men had sex with boys back then.  That is not my point.  My point is that "most", if you want me to put it that way, believed that it was moral, even if they did not participate.

It wasn't a small part of that culture, OzmO.

Do I tell myself what?  OzmO, this is world history.  Don't argue with me.  Argue with the historians.  I already told you, read about "Greek pederasty".  Then you'll see that it was considered "moral" and not by a "small" group of people.

I agree that children were suffering.  My question to you was, what about the great majority who did not participate in the act, who were not aware of the child's suffering, who thought the practice was moral?  How would these people know that what they thought was moral was actually very immoral?  What sets the moral standard for them? 

Now, you completely confuse me here, OzmO.  What are you talking about?  I'm asking a very simple question and you, once again, refuse to answer.  That is exactly my point.  "Greek pederasty" is child molestation.  However, in those days, by Greek moral standards, it was not considered child molestation.  Why, OzmO?  Why wasn't it considered child molestation?  Where was the "god" inside then? 

If it wasn't "ALL" Greeks you should have said that or said what you finally said:

OzmO, when I say "All Greeks", I don't mean all Greeks as individuals.  I meant all of Greece, as in Sparta, Athens, etc.,  at that time believed the practice was moral.  Most men did not have sex with boys, but most of the population believed that it was moral.  It is very possible that there were individuals that did not believe that it was moral.  But I said this in reply to your comments below, which according to history, are not correct.

It leads the reader to believe otherwise.  now you are using the word:  "most"  which is probably more accurate.  and although most of the  society might have seen nothing wrong with it, there were many that did. 

They didn't need to have to be present during the act to see it harmed the child, they only needed to be present after the act to see that or were part of the act to begin with when they were children.

You see, NOT everyone listens to their heart, listen to God inside them.  It's sad because if more people would, I'm sure there would be so much less suffering in the world.

I wasn't talking about Japan.  I was talking about how societies before Greece did not consider having sex with boys something good and moral.  My point is that when it comes to morality, history shows us that societies can and have regressed at times.  It can and will probably continue to happen.  What is moral today may be immoral tomorrow, and vice versa.  So again, what sets the moral standards?

I don't think societies will continue to regress in terms of moral standards that harm people mainly because of the information world we now live in.  It may and is regressing in standards that are debatable such as sex and demonstrations of violence on TV and Movies..   Both of these things are due to the increased transfer of knowledge and information via the media and internet.

So what sets moral standards?   Several things:

-  Yes, books like the bible and other religious books
-  Personal experiences
-  Your parents and other people you respect.
-  The thing inside you that tells you right from wrong which is part of God inside you.

I agree with you.....morals can be found in the Bible and be used as a guide.  Some people need that more than others.  My problem with the Bible is that i don't believe it's the 100% word of God and believe many of things in it are suspect as a result.  A good example being homosexuality versus Slavery.  And it's used to guilt people into acting a certain way, persecute others, amass money, etc....

OzmO, pretend for a second that I'm not a Christian and that I do not believe in the Bible.  Pretend I'm a lost, confused soul who is looking for answers.  Pretend I'm asking you to give me a reason for your faith and to answer these questions for me.  Who sets the standards for morality?  What went wrong with ancient Greece?  What went wrong with so many Germans during WWII and their hate and obsession with annihilating Jews for no other reason than the fact that they are Jews?

That's all I was trying to do, to find out what "answers" you have.  To get you to give me a reason for your faith.

i was once a lost confused soul.  I was found by God in a Christian Church and continued my spiritual growth beyond that.  I'll tell you more later....   Got a meeting right now.

[loco]

The mere fact the "god" described in the Bible gives advice or direction on purchasing slaves, treating children of other families as "property", selling daughters as slaves and keeping them slaves longer than men, is reprehensible and not indicative or representative of, Jesus or God.  And then at the same time making homosexuality a sin?

Still, the Bible never openly or clearly says that slavery is okay or that it is a good thing.  Owning slaves may not be clearly portrayed as an immoral thing to do in the Bible, but it does portray setting slaves free as a positive thing. 

OzmO, I don't have all the answers and I don't always understand God.

I believe God is teaching us something, as individuals throughout our lifetime, and as a human race, throughout history.  He wants us to learn and to grow.  In the case of slavery, Israelites had been slaves in Egypt and were oppressed for generations.  After God set them free, it was Israel's turn to own slaves. God set guidelines for Israel on slavery.  Would Israel treat slaves better than Egypt treated them?  Would Israel oppress slaves?  Would they set slaves free? 

In life, we are some times put on both sides of the fence for a reason.  I dont' know what that reason is.

Deuteronomy 15:12-15
12If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free. 13 And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. 14 Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you.
15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today.

Deuteronomy 24:19-22
When you are harvesting in your field and you overlook a sheaf, do not go back to get it. Leave it for the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. 20 When you beat the olives from your trees, do not go over the branches a second time. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. 21 When you harvest the grapes in your vineyard, do not go over the vines again. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow.
22 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt. That is why I command you to do this.

this is the crap that Slavery was justified with by white westerners for years. 

Yet, the men most influential in the abolition of slavery in the west were Christians and believers in the Bible. 

America:
John Brown
Frederick Douglass
Abraham Lincoln
 
Britain:
William Wilberforce
Granville Sharp
Thomas Clarkson

That is pathetic.  It looks like the word of Satan to me.
How can you sit there and say the bible is the word of God when "god" is giving out advice on how to manage slaves? 

And you call this book a moral compass?   

That is not GOD.   

So, 80% of it is the word of God and 20% is the word of Satan?

OzmO, anybody can take anything out of any religious book and use it to justify their evil deeds.  That doesn't mean that the book is evil. 

Slavery is just part, a dark part, of world history.  In many cases, it was a way to pay your debt if you were unable to pay otherwise, "file for bankruptcy".  It was a way to discourage people from borrowing money that they knew they couldn't repay.  It is wrong, but it happened.  Today we have much better ways to handle and penalize bankruptcy. 

I don't see God in the Bible commanding me to own and oppress slaves.  That's ridiculous.  If you see it that way, if that's how you interpret it, that's fine.  But true Christians do not interpret it that way.  See the men above, who believed in the Bible and who fought slavery.  It was their very Christian beliefs that inspired them to fight slavery.

Deuteronomy 23:15-16
15 “You shall not give back to his master the slave who has escaped from his master to you. 16 He may dwell with you in your midst, in the place which he chooses within one of your gates, where it seems best to him; you shall not oppress him."

Isaiah 58:6
"Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?"

Jeremiah 34:10
So all the officials and people who entered into this covenant agreed that they would free their male and female slaves and no longer hold them in bondage. They agreed, and set them free.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

[Oldschool Flip]

Will this all loving God accept the different doctrines that the Christian denominations translate in to being right with him? Each denomination has a different view on certain passages and will curtail them to fit their beliefs. Who is right here? And how do  you know?

[loco]

Will this all loving God accept the different doctrines that the Christian denominations translate in to being right with him? Each denomination has a different view on certain passages and will curtail them to fit their beliefs. Who is right here? And how do  you know?

They all agree on eternal life only through faith in Jesus Christ, don't they?  What Christian denomination does not believe this?

[Oldschool Flip]

They all agree on eternal life only through faith in Jesus Christ, don't they?  What Christian denomination does not believe this?

I'm sure they all do, however being from a Catholic background, I know for a fact that many Catholics idolize statues, though they claim it's just an image. This is against God's commandments and a sin that continues because the Catholic church doesn't have anything against this type of worship. Now in your opinion, how can they be "saved" and be accepted by an all loving God when they are purposely breaking a most promenant commandment? And if leadership of this denomination doesn't regard this as sinful, then the followers are just sheep, doing what they perceive is accepted because of being raised that way.

[loco]

I'm sure they all do, however being from a Catholic background, I know for a fact that many Catholics idolize statues, though they claim it's just an image. This is against God's commandments and a sin that continues because the Catholic church doesn't have anything against this type of worship. Now in your opinion, how can they be "saved" and be accepted by an all loving God when they are purposely breaking a most promenant commandment? And if leadership of this denomination doesn't regard this as sinful, then the followers are just sheep, doing what they perceive is accepted because of being raised that way.

I know of a Roman Catholic monk who would have agreed with you.  His name is Martin Luther.

[Oldschool Flip]

I know of a Roman Catholic monk who would have agreed with you.  His name is Martin Luther.

So is God going to save these worshippers?

[loco]

So is God going to save these worshippers?

If they have truly placed their faith in Jesus Christ, then YES.

If they truly have placed their faith in Jesus Christ, according to the Bible, Jesus Christ will then show them the sin in their life, He will give them the desire to abandon that sin, and He will give the the power to abandon that sin. 

It is all part of the spiritual growth that I had posted about earlier.  So these Roman Catholics who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ will soon realize that praying to statues is a sin and they will abandon that practice.  That is what Martin Luther, and many other Roman Catholics throughout history have done. 

If say, they happen to die before they get to that point in their spiritual growth, the point at which they learn that praying to statues is a sin, they do go to heaven because they have placed their faith in Jesus Christ and were in the process of growing spiritually.

[Oldschool Flip]

If they have truly placed their faith in Jesus Christ, then YES.

If they truly have placed their faith in Jesus Christ, according to the Bible, Jesus Christ will then show them the sin in their life, He will give them the desire to abandon that sin, and He will give the the power to abandon that sin. 

It is all part of the spiritual growth that I had posted about earlier.  So these Roman Catholics who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ will soon realize that praying to statues is a sin and they will abandon that practice.  That is what Martin Luther, and many other Roman Catholics throughout history have done. 

If say, they happen to die before they get to that point in their spiritual growth, the point at which they learn that praying to statues is a sin, they do go to heaven because they have placed their faith in Jesus Christ and were in the process of growing spiritually.

And if they haven't grown spiritually?

[loco]

And if they haven't grown spiritually?

What do you mean?  If they haven't grown spiritually to the point at which they learn that praying to statues is a sin?  Or, if they do not grow spiritually at all in any area?

[OzmO]

Still, the Bible never openly or clearly says that slavery is okay or that it is a good thing.  Owning slaves may not be clearly portrayed as an immoral thing to do in the Bible, but it does portray setting slaves free as a positive thing. 

OzmO, I don't have all the answers and I don't always understand God.

I believe God is teaching us something, as individuals throughout our lifetime, and as a human race, throughout history.  He wants us to learn and to grow.  In the case of slavery, Israelites had been slaves in Egypt and were oppressed for generations.  After God set them free, it was Israel's turn to own slaves. God set guidelines for Israel on slavery.  Would Israel treat slaves better than Egypt treated them?  Would Israel oppress slaves?  Would they set slaves free? 

In life, we are some times put on both sides of the fence for a reason.  I dont' know what that reason is.

Deuteronomy 15:12-15
12If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free. 13 And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. 14 Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you.
15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today.

Deuteronomy 24:19-22
When you are harvesting in your field and you overlook a sheaf, do not go back to get it. Leave it for the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. 20 When you beat the olives from your trees, do not go over the branches a second time. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. 21 When you harvest the grapes in your vineyard, do not go over the vines again. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow.
22 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt. That is why I command you to do this.

Yet, the men most influential in the abolition of slavery in the west were Christians and believers in the Bible. 

America:
John Brown
Frederick Douglass
Abraham Lincoln
 
Britain:
William Wilberforce
Granville Sharp
Thomas Clarkson

Sorry but this is the "word of God' and in it he gives guidelines on owning and dealing in slaves, and even goes as far as describing Children as someone's property.

Imagine if this were "Murder".  And while God never condones it, he does talk about how to kill someone, how to plan and murder or even how to murder a child.

How can talk of slavery be the word of God?

If the Word of God can be so easily manipulated how can it be the Word of God?  Sholdn't the Word of God be something simple and everlasting free from tampering and abuse?

Like for Example:  "Do on to others and you would have them do to you"?  Or, "thou shall not Kill?"

But yet we see in this bible so many instances of "man made dogma"  How can this be the word of God?  At the very least these are conflicting messages and therefore can not be the 100% word of God.

So, 80% of it is the word of God and 20% is the word of Satan?

I said this mainly for effect.  Mainly because talk of slavery is so off base.  Here we have on one hand, God talking about slavery and then God talking about the evils of homosexuality. 

Think about it......Slavery and all the associated evils vs. something that's has no victims and is consensual.   

The talk of Slavery in the bible is a historical account written from the writers perspective and Homosexuality in "Paul's" version is church doctrine.  This is not "God" talking here. 

OzmO, anybody can take anything out of any religious book and use it to justify their evil deeds.  That doesn't mean that the book is evil. 

That's the problem and there in lies more reason that the bible isn't the word of God.   A true holy book or words could not easily be taken a twisted to turn fanatics into murders.

Slavery is just part, a dark part, of world history.  In many cases, it was a way to pay your debt if you were unable to pay otherwise, "file for bankruptcy".  It was a way to discourage people from borrowing money that they knew they couldn't repay.  It is wrong, but it happened.  Today we have much better ways to handle and penalize bankruptcy. 

In many cases it was a result of not being able to pay debts?   How about conquered peoples?  How about kidnapped children from peaceful villages?  You're saying that it was a way to discourage going in debt and there fore it's justified in the bible? 

I don't see God in the Bible commanding me to own and oppress slaves.  That's ridiculous.  If you see it that way, if that's how you interpret it, that's fine.  But true Christians do not interpret it that way.  See the men above, who believed in the Bible and who fought slavery.  It was their very Christian beliefs that inspired them to fight slavery.

Was it their Christian beliefs or was it their inner beliefs?  Probably a combination of both.   But how many less problems, how many less years.....  of slavery would there have been without the references and guidelines in the Bible to owning, buying, and treating slaves, if there was one simple denunciation of slavery all together in it?  But yet, we take a Human activity with no victim and make it sin?

Very un-divine.


Thisi is what's very twisted among other things about the Bible and Christianity.   Here's another:

My nephew-in-law's parents are very religious Christians like your self.  My nephew is 10 years old.   He's been allowed to watch "saving private Ryan"  you ever see that?  Very violent movie.   I was over at there house one day, and there was a some what violent western on.  He was allowed to watch it6, but when there was a "kissing" scene he was told to cover his eyes.

Can you imagine the message here?   Violence is ok, But human affection based on love isn't........at age 10.  And we wonder why we have problems in our society.  (of course many other things contribute to the problems we have like:  the sexual exploitation, materialism and TV in general)


this is much like the slavery/homo sexual comparison.   Misdirected values from a Book that's supposedly the "word of God"

[Oldschool Flip]

What do you mean?  If they haven't grown spiritually to the point at which they learn that praying to statues is a sin?  Or, if they do not grow spiritually at all in any area?

If you 've ever been to a Catholic mass, it's basically the same routine every week, except for the sermon. Looking around, I could see in people's eyes that they were just there because it was the way they were taught. Are they learning anything? I doubt it. If you ask most Catholics, they believe having a rosary and a statue of Mary protects them in their home. Now devotion to this type of thinking would lead me to believe they are not growing more spirtually, but just following rituals that they were taught when they were young.

What's even funnier to me is how other denominations criticize other denominations on there interpretations. Let's face it, according to the Bible, there is really only one denomination, the other are wolves in sheeps clothing. So who are the wolves?

[loco]

Imagine if this were "Murder".  And while God never condones it, he does talk about how to kill someone, how to plan and murder or even how to murder a child.

Sorry, but I missed something.  Can you show me where God tells us how to plan the murder of a child?
 

How can talk of slavery be the word of God?

I already told you how.
 

If the Word of God can be so easily manipulated how can it be the Word of God? 

You make it sound as if the Word of God was easier to manipulate than anything else.  OzmO, people are easily manipulated.  The laws in your own United States of America are very easily manipulated.  So what's you point? 
 
You say that part of the Bible is the word of God.  Take anyone of those parts and show me how it cannot be manipulated.  You do believe that at least that one part is the word of God, right?  Yet, it can be manipulated.
 

Shouldn't the Word of God be something simple and everlasting free from tampering and abuse?

I don't see why it should.  But if you think it should, I don't know.  Ask God.  If it were something simple, I personally would doubt that it came from an infinite God.  I believe that it is everlasting and free from tampering.  Free from abuse? No, it is not free from abuse.  People have free will and can abuse even the word of God and God will hold them accountable for it. 
 
If it were a "magic" book, with "supernatural" power, people would turn it into an idol and worship the book instead of God.

Like for Example:  "Do on to others and you would have them do to you"?  Or, "thou shall not Kill?"

But yet we see in this bible so many instances of "man made dogma"  How can this be the word of God?  At the very least these are conflicting messages and therefore can not be the 100% word of God.

Man made dogma?  Conflicting messages?  These are your personal believes and not mine.  You are free to believe anything you want.

I said this mainly for effect.  Mainly because talk of slavery is so off base.  Here we have on one hand, God talking about slavery and then God talking about the evils of homosexuality. 

OzmO, I don't believe that any Christian on this board has brought up homosexuality in this particular thread.  Why do you keep on bringing up homosexuality?

Think about it......Slavery and all the associated evils vs. something that's has no victims and is consensual.   

Homosexuality has no victims?  OzmO, what if a few years from now, a well conducted study, not by Christians, shows that a child raised by two homosexual men who are open about their homosexuality is traumatizing, harmful and destructive to the child emotionally, mentally and socially?  What if that happened?  How do you know it's not happening now?  We don't know.  All I know is that God said a man shall not have sex with another man and that the act is detestable to God and an abomination. 

I don't know about you, but I have no desire to have sex with another man, but even if I did want to, I wouldn't do it because the Bible says it's evil. 

I'm not going to sit around and wait for a scientific study or for society to catch up, to tell me what is moral and what is immoral.

The talk of Slavery in the bible is a historical account written from the writers perspective and Homosexuality in "Paul's" version is church doctrine.  This is not "God" talking here. 

Homosexuality?  Church dogma?  OzmO, the church started with Jesus Christ.  Homosexuality is condemned in the Old Testament.  Paul is simply talking about something that had been condemned by God for hundreds of years.  How can this be "church dogma"?

And why do you bash the Bible on homosexuality?  Christianity teaches love for everybody, even homosexuals.  Other religions that do not believe the Bible is the word of God also condemn homosexuality, but even make it a crime punishable by death.

That's the problem and there in lies more reason that the bible isn't the word of God.   A true holy book or words could not easily be taken a twisted to turn fanatics into murders.

Not necessarily.  What about the murderer who doesn't read the Bible, yet murders and then says "god told me to do it", the "god" inside speaking to him?

In many cases it was a result of not being able to pay debts?   How about conquered peoples?  How about kidnapped children from peaceful villages?  You're saying that it was a way to discourage going in debt and there fore it's justified in the bible? 

OzmO,
All I was saying is that slavery has always been part of history.  Slavery was around since before the days of Noah.  Are you blaming the Bible for all the slavery in the history of the world?

Was it their Christian beliefs or was it their inner beliefs?  Probably a combination of both.   

It was their Christian beliefs.  Christians believe in the Bible, and they live their lives by it.  And if a little inner voice, inner emotion or feeling contradicts the Bible, we go with the Bible.  That's what we believe.  Look at the verses I posted about freeing slaves.  The Bible promotes setting slaves free.  The Bible even gives detailed guidelines on how to properly set a slave free "And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed.  Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress" (Deuteronomy 15:13-14)

OzmO, you got to give credit where credit is due.  When a Christian does something good, you say it was their inner belief.  When a Christian does something bad, you say it is the Bible.  I'm not even going to roll my eyes here. It's obvious that no matter what, your mind is already made up on arguing that the Bible is not the word of God.

But how many less problems, how many less years.....  of slavery would there have been without the references and guidelines in the Bible to owning, buying, and treating slaves, if there was one simple denunciation of slavery all together in it?  But yet, we take a Human activity with no victim and make it sin?

Very un-divine.

Oh, so now, according to you, slavery and all the evils of the world are the Bible's fault.  According to you, if the Bible had not mentioned slavery, slavery would never have existed.  Yeah, sure.  What about "Greek pederasty"?  The Bible condemns it, yet it didn't stop Greece from practicing it in the past and believing it to be moral.  And what of the Christians who fought slavery because the Bible inspired them to free slaves? 

Thisi is what's very twisted among other things about the Bible and Christianity.   Here's another:

My nephew-in-law's parents are very religious Christians like your self.  My nephew is 10 years old.   He's been allowed to watch "saving private Ryan"  you ever see that?  Very violent movie.   I was over at there house one day, and there was a some what violent western on.  He was allowed to watch it6, but when there was a "kissing" scene he was told to cover his eyes.

Can you imagine the message here?   Violence is ok, But human affection based on love isn't........at age 10.  And we wonder why we have problems in our society.

this is much like the slavery/homo sexual comparison.   Misdirected values from a Book that's supposedly the "word of God"

The Bible never says that owning and oppressing slaves is good.  It does say that freeing slaves is good.  But it does clearly say that homosexuality is bad.  You can compare the two all you want to, but your point in mute.  Why don't you find something else other than slavery in the Bible to compare it to homosexuality?  If the Bible is the word of Satan, according to you, then you shouldn't have a problem finding where God takes something evil and clearly, without a doubt, says that it is good, right OzmO?

About your nephew-in-law's parents, if the way that they raise their child bothers you so much that you are posting it here for the whole world to read, then you should probably be having this discussion with the parents and not with me.

[OzmO]

Sorry, but I missed something.  Can you show me where God tells us how to plan the murder of a child?

Are we having problems reading today?

Imagine if this were "Murder". And while God never condones it, he does talk about how to kill someone, how to plan and murder or even how to murder a child.

   
You make it sound as if the Word of God was easier to manipulate than anything else.  OzmO, people are easily manipulated.  The laws in your own United States of America are very easily manipulated.  So what's you point? 
 
You say that part of the Bible is the word of God.  Take anyone of those parts and show me how it cannot be manipulated.  You do believe that at least that one part is the word of God, right?  Yet, it can be manipulated.
 

OK try:  "do on to others...."  and manipulate it without having a "victim". 

 
I don't see why it should.  But if you think it should, I don't know.  Ask God.  If it were something simple, I personally would doubt that it came from an infinite God.  I believe that it is everlasting and free from tampering.  Free from abuse? No, it is not free from abuse.  People have free will and can abuse even the word of God and God will hold them accountable for it. 
 

You don;t see why the word of god should be something ever lasting and simple, all the while people have "abused" this bible for their own ends and people have suffered for it?  Sorry got to eye roll here   

Man made dogma?  Conflicting messages?  These are your personal believes and not mine.  You are free to believe anything you want.

Of course it's not conflicting, in your opinion, because that would shatter the foundation of your beliefs. So even though GOd teaches slavery  it's OK with you. 

Homosexuality has no victims?  OzmO, what if a few years from now, a well conducted study, not by Christians, shows that a child raised by two homosexual men who are open about their homosexuality is traumatizing, harmful and destructive to the child emotionally, mentally and socially?  What if that happened?  How do you know it's not happening now?  We don't know.  All I know is that God said a man shall not have sex with another man and that the act is detestable to God and an abomination. 

I believe that childred of Homosexual unions in certain areas of our country would have problems.  But these children would be victims of a religious based culture not direct intended victims such as Slavery.

Get it now?

OzmO, I don't believe that any Christian on this board has brought up homosexuality in this particular thread.  Why do you keep on bringing up homosexuality?

because it's a great example to compare it too.  Slavery vs a life style choice.

I don't know about you, but I have no desire to have sex with another man, but even if I did want to, I wouldn't do it because the Bible says it's evil. 

I don't either, in fact i don't know why any would want to..... but that's another discussion:  Is Homosexuality something you are born with?"

I'm not going to sit around and wait for a scientific study or for society to catch up, to tell me what is moral and what is immoral.

You don't need to wait because between 2 consenting adults there are no victims.

Homosexuality?  Church dogma?  OzmO, the church started with Jesus Christ.  Homosexuality is condemned in the Old Testament.  Paul is simply talking about something that had been condemned by God for hundreds of years.  How can this be "church dogma"?

No,  homosexuality was condemned by both cultures.  and slavery wasn't condemned, in fact it was encouraged and taught in the bible .

 
And why do you bash the Bible on homosexuality?  Christianity teaches love for everybody, even homosexuals.  Other religions that do not believe the Bible is the word of God also condemn homosexuality, but even make it a crime punishable by death.

Not necessarily.  What about the murderer who doesn't read the Bible, yet murders and then says "god told me to do it", the "god" inside speaking to him?

[/quote]

At this point we don't know what's really going on a murderers head....  remember Cho, could have very well been born again.

The "WOG" in the Bible and in other religious books are beyond reproach:  Show me how to twist and abuse:  "thou shall not kill"

OzmO,
All I was saying is that slavery has always been part of history.  Slavery was around since before the days of Noah.  Are you blaming the Bible for all the slavery in the history of the world?

No, I'm blaming the supposed word of God for not STOPPING IT.  just one denunciation would have saved the suffering of countless people.  but yet we have the Word of GOd teaching us how to own slaves.


If you can't see there err in that than you have gone beyond brain washing.

OzmO,
It was their Christian beliefs.  Christians believe in the Bible, and they live their lives by it.  And if a little inner voice, inner emotion or feeling contradicts the Bible, we go with the Bible.  That's what we believe.  Look at the verses I posted about freeing slaves.  The Bible promotes setting slaves free.  The Bible even gives detailed guidelines on how to properly set a slave free "And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed.  Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress" (Deuteronomy 15:13-14)

OzmO, you got to give credit where credit is due.  When a Christian does something good, you say it was their inner belief.  When a Christian does something bad, you say it is the Bible.  I'm not even going to roll my eyes here. It's obvious that no matter what, your mind is already made up on arguing that the Bible is not the word of God.

No i do not say that.  I say it's a combination.  I say for myself it's mostly God inside me.  And i say we all have that ability if we chose to use it and that if we do we will clearly see just how much of "man" is disguised as the word of god.

Oh, so now, according to you, slavery and all the evils of the world are the Bible's fault.  According to you, if the Bible had not mentioned slavery, slavery would never have existed.  Yeah, sure.  What about "Greek pederasty"?  The Bible condemns it, yet it didn't stop Greece from practicing it in the past and believing it to be moral.  And what of the Christians who fought slavery because the Bible inspired them to free slaves? 

No, i did not say if it wasn't for the Bible slavery would not have existed. (if i did, it's becuase i didn;t proof read my post enough ) I said that if the Bible had denounced it it would have stopped sooner.

And here you go again with "ALL"  did i ever say that the Bible is to blame for "ALL"  evils of the world. 

You getting so quick to judge and label loco, and i think you'll be condemning me to hell soon.

The Bible never says that owning and oppressing slaves is good.  It does say that freeing slaves is good.  But it does clearly says that homosexuality is bad.  You can compare the two all you want to, but your point in mute.  Why don't you find something else other than slavery in the Bible to compare it to homosexuality?  If the Bible is the word of Satan, according to you, then you shouldn't have a problem finding where God takes something evil and clearly, without a doubt, says that it is good, right OzmO?

About your nephew-in-law's parents, if the way that they raise their child bothers you so much that you are posting it here for the whole world to read, then you should probably be having this discussion with the parents and not with me.

Her ewe go with taking the wrong meaning again.  I explained it to you what i meant.  do i need to again?  And about my nephew,  i was giving an example not asking for advice. 

please read closer next time.




 

[loco]

Are we having problems reading today?


OK try:  "do on to others...."  and manipulate it without having a "victim". 

Sorry got to eye roll here   

Of course it's not conflicting, in your opinion, because that would shatter the foundation of

Get it now?

If you can't see there err in that than you have gone beyond brain washing.

And here you go again with "ALL"  did i ever say that the Bible is to blame for "ALL"  evils of the world. 

You getting so quick to judge and label loco, and i think you'll be condemning me to hell soon.

Her ewe go with taking the wrong meaning again.  I explained it to you what i meant.  do i need to again?  

please read closer next time.

OzmO, I was being serious about my questions.  Instead of answering, look at all the cynical, sarcastic, insulting remarks you post.  Then you call me arrogant, judgmental and condemning?  Look in the mirror.

Just let me know when you are ready to have a discussion.   

[OzmO]

OzmO, I was being serious about my questions.  Instead of answering, look at all the cynical, sarcastic, insulting remarks you post.  Then you call me arrogant, judgmental and condemning?  Look in the mirror.

Just let me know when you are ready to have a discussion.   

loco, then don't put words in my mouth or lump me into a "all" statement or incorrectly translate the meaning of my words when they obviously say something different.

Example: 

Quote from: loco on Today at 12:01:37 PM
Sorry, but I missed something.  Can you show me where God tells us how to plan the murder of a child?

Are we having problems reading today?


Quote
Imagine if this were "Murder". And while God never condones it, he does talk about how to kill someone, how to plan and murder or even how to murder a child.

[OzmO]

another example:

Quote from: loco on Today at 12:01:37 PM

Oh, so now, according to you, slavery and all the evils of the world are the Bible's fault.

[OzmO]

hmmm ..............it seems like as soon as you get exposed you cry foul pretty quick.

part of having an intelligent discussion is being accurate about what the other person said and not lump their statements into a different meaning.

[loco]

Have a good day, OzmO!  Hope it all works out for you!   

[OzmO]

Have a good day, OzmO!  Hope it all works out for you!   

You too, loco,  sorry it got too hot and real in the kitchen for you.   Sorry you had to address real issues regarding of what's really said in the Bible.   

P.S.  sorry if you took offense to any of my posts.  Just as you don't appreciate someone mis quoting the Bible, I don't appreciate people putting words in my mouth.


P.P.S.S.  And i do apologize if i offended you in anyway. 

[Oldschool Flip]

Have a good day, OzmO!  Hope it all works out for you!   

HAHAHAHA! Love thy enemy!