"cant build muscle and lose fat at the same time"

[candidizzle]

 is there some link between fat metabolism and a reduction in protein synthesis tha im not aware of? or is there some sort of calric intake moderator that keeps trtack of whether your eating a surplus or a deficiency that acts as somesort of "control switch" for growth.. ??

somebody that isnt talkin out their ass, please.

[Necrosis]

body recomposition is possible but it is hard.

carb cycling may work, or intermittent fasting or slow sustained proper diet.

the two are somewhat at odds in terms of goals. muscle gain needs surplus, diet the opposite. Proper nutrient partitioning is the key.

[candidizzle]

thanks man i was hoping you would see this.

so for a person that knew their select metabolism very well, and understood the basics of nutrient usage and metalic systems/hormones..its quite possible to slowly reduce body fat over a long period of time while building up muscle during that same stretch of time ?

[candidizzle]

sprry one more question bro

 in what way does the body "require" a surplus..  ? does it require just a surplus of amino acids ? or does there necessarily have to also be a srubplus of quote unquote energy calories..?

i understand that protein synthesis is elevated while glycogen is up, but as long as glycogen is aplenty, there is no deficiency in efa's (say for example fish oil evening primrose) and there is a surplus of aminos.. then whats stopps the body from growing at an optimom rate?  or is it in fact slowed at all?

[Necrosis]

sprry one more question bro

 in what way does the body "require" a surplus..  ? does it require just a surplus of amino acids ? or does there necessarily have to also be a srubplus of quote unquote energy calories..?

i understand that protein synthesis is elevated while glycogen is up, but as long as glycogen is aplenty, there is no deficiency in efa's (say for example fish oil evening primrose) and there is a surplus of aminos.. then whats stopps the body from growing at an optimom rate?  or is it in fact slowed at all?

to your first post, yes you can slowly gain mass and lose fat and naturally, although it takes discipline.


secondly growth of muscle is something your body does not want to do, its a horrible tissue that uses alot of energy, while fat is a energy dense source that is easily made and catabolized. so in terms of calories, your muscle tissue is last on the list for all intensive purposes. that why nutrient partioning is so important, you have to eat the right foods that feed muscle and inhibit lipogenesis. you also have to take advantage of particular hormones like insulin and leptin and use them to your advantage.

muscle buidling is simple if your in a surplus, and hard if you try to recomp your body.

your question was a little vague, so try and clarify it if my answer wasnt what you where looking for.

[candidizzle]

no that pretty much hits my question directly on the head, smoke pole, GRAZI

so you tink carbs are very important to muscle growth because they inhibit fat catabloism ?

what role do cxarbs and fats actually play in muscle growth ? do the ribosomes actually use them as a fuel or machine or raw material iin the protein synthesis process? 

[benchmstr]

just go with carb cycling,its good stuff.

bench

[candidizzle]

thanks for the thoughts bench
but im not looking to burn fa and build muscle right now

im just inquisitive as to the process..

i think when i do cut down though, i will do it very slowly and try my best to build as much muscle as possible while diteing off the body fat.  in fact i am not sure i will use caloric restriction as a means t reduction in body fat...rather, eat a hundred or so cals above maintanence throughout the day (low glycemic carbs only) and let cardio take the fat off

[LatsMcGee]

It's called the anabolic diet.  Body Opus.  If you do it right it works.

[candidizzle]

It's called the anabolic diet.  Body Opus.  If you do it right it works.

i have tried both of those in the past.

i think they are wonderful for the natural trainer, because the high fat weekdays makes for much better hormone levels.

[LatsMcGee]

i have tried both of those in the past.

i think they are wonderful for the natural trainer, because the high fat weekdays makes for much better hormone levels.

AMEN!

[WhiteHulk4]

Personally, I think the whole "You can't Burn Fat and Build Muscle at the same time" mantra, is simply rooted in old school bodybuilding methodology.  When they used to say that, what they really meant was "You can't Burn Fat FAST and Build Muscle FAST!"  It's either one or the other if you're in a hurry.  And since competitive bodybuilders are ALWAYS in a hurry for results - they either need to pack on mass or cut fat very rapidly - you can't do both rapidly.

Over-eating, in itself, is anabolic.  So just by the pure nature of it, it's MUCH easier to build muscle when you're taking in excessive calories every day.

And vice-versa, by eating less calories than you burn each day, you'll lose weight. 

However, the calorie-in / calorie-out doesn't take into account the type of training you do.  If you are strength-training then your body is automatically going to take calories away from your daily intake in order to repair and rebuild muscle tissue.  So at a maintenance level, with strength training included, you'll actually build muscle and burn fat at the same time.  Focus on super-sets and shorter rest periods to turn your strength-training into a double blast with a cardiovascular kick; and you'll speed up the process.

[candidizzle]

good thoughts hulk.


o always wonder...what qualifies as "over eating" or "eating to a surplus"..   how may calories do you need to reach that state? for what time period is this based against? if i eeat 200 calories, then at least for a half hours time i have a surplus of calories ...   right?   

[Faust]

Most beginners who start working out lose fat and gain muscle.
Gaining muscle gets harder the more muscle mass you already have. So i think for very seasoned (natural) lifters it's hard to do both, because you are close to your potential and don't have so much anabolic impulses from food anymore.

But i think most lifters can gain muscle when cutting, though less of course than when bulking.
Good timing helps a lot. Keep the carbs for after training, space the protein, etc...

[Necrosis]

good thoughts hulk.


o always wonder...what qualifies as "over eating" or "eating to a surplus"..   how may calories do you need to reach that state? for what time period is this based against? if i eeat 200 calories, then at least for a half hours time i have a surplus of calories ...   right?   

no.

its geusswork for the most part as its very hard to actually know your exact needs. i would calculate based on daily totals, as hormonal fluctuations in the day will cause variations in metabolism. Look at the dinural variation of cortisol, then look at cortisol's effect on glucose metabolism.

its not quite that simple.

[Mega Man]

Most beginners who start working out lose fat and gain muscle.
Gaining muscle gets harder the more muscle mass you already have. So i think for very seasoned (natural) lifters it's hard to do both, because you are close to your potential and don't have so much anabolic impulses from food anymore.

But i think most lifters can gain muscle when cutting, though less of course than when bulking.
Good timing helps a lot. Keep the carbs for after training, space the protein, etc...

I agree totaly.....When a coach potato or someone that tiook a long time off.....starts lifting again....their muscles are shocked and activated for the first time in a while so they grow some no matter what initially...and if diet and exercise is right...they can loose fat as well....but anyone that starts working out for the first time gains muscle in the begging no matter what.

But Ronnie coleman or Jay cuttler.....who already passed their genetic potential.....can't ever gain and cut at the same time. They need a bulking period and a cutting period.

[candidizzle]

no.

its geusswork for the most part as its very hard to actually know your exact needs. i would calculate based on daily totals, as hormonal fluctuations in the day will cause variations in metabolism. Look at the dinural variation of cortisol, then look at cortisol's effect on glucose metabolism.

its not quite that simple.

okay but lets say this is a dream world and i know excactly what my body can and will use.. and excactly what the "tipping point" for most amount of nutrients ine onemeal without fat storage..

lets say i know my body will burn 100 grams of carbs, and 10 grams of fat over the next three hours.  in a "fed" state, my body is capable of synthesizing protein at a rate of lets say 15 grams per hour.    my next meal is in four hours.  i eat 100 grams of carbs, 10 grams fat, and 45 grams of protien..       that would mean that after three horus time all those ingested nutrients would be used, and i would have grown as fast as i can for three hours tim, and thn for one hours time ill be burning fat ...      does this make any sense?

[WhiteHulk4]

okay but lets say this is a dream world and i know excactly what my body can and will use.. and excactly what the "tipping point" for most amount of nutrients ine onemeal without fat storage..

lets say i know my body will burn 100 grams of carbs, and 10 grams of fat over the next three hours.  in a "fed" state, my body is capable of synthesizing protein at a rate of lets say 15 grams per hour.    my next meal is in four hours.  i eat 100 grams of carbs, 10 grams fat, and 45 grams of protien..       that would mean that after three horus time all those ingested nutrients would be used, and i would have grown as fast as i can for three hours tim, and thn for one hours time ill be burning fat ...      does this make any sense?

Not really, because again, you're not taking into account all of the hormonal variables, that quite frankly, you just can't nail down so simply.  The biggest thing is, once you've fully digested all of your food, even if you've timed it absolutely perfect at 3 hours exactly, that doesn't mean that you will immediately turn to fat for fuel.  Why?  Because you've got stored up energy in your muscles, in your liver, as well as other areas.  Granted, for that 4th hour, "some" fat could be used, but I doubt it would be very much. 

The biggest thing to keep in mind is - after all of your nutrients have been absorbed and utilized, it doesn't mean you've got an empty fuel tank.  It means you just FILLED your tank.  So the whole time your digesting/utilizing/whatever you wanna call it - it's like the time you spend filling up your gas tank.  Then you've got enough fuel to drive for quite a while...

[thewickedtruth]

it's very slow process..but one can do it. The problem is the time it takes to reevaluate your diet to one that burns fat as it's fuel source but still gives you enough TOTAL cals to keep you at excess. But that excess is only about 100-200 cals more a day. It's SLOW but steady...adn the more muscle you build obviously the more you'll hafta take in.

typically it's hard to push for gains and cut up. The more you try to cut down it seems the more risk of injury you're prone to.