Is the West (specifically the United States) keeping down the Arab man?

[Oliver Klaushof]

I notice the only countries in the middle-east we attack are the somewhat prosperous countries. Iran has one of the largest armies in the world. They are in the process of developing nuclear technology to power their cities. Iraq had a system of socialised medicine. Women were allowed to go to school, earn degrees. They were one of the most progressive countries in the region. Now Iraq has been reduced to rubble. Murder and looting is rampant. They have been set back 50 years. It looks like Iran will meet the same fate. I think the US wants to keep down any Arab country that is doing well for itself.

[240 is Back]

I think a bit of it, is that the US enjoys being the only remaining superpower.

If a few of these middle eastern countries got their shit together, they could form a nice alliance, control most of the world's oil output, and create their own little embargo.  They could just sell to their European allies, and make the US buy from them.  This would cripple our economy.  Picture how much your groceries would cost if the truck that brought them to the store was running on gas at $25 a gallon.

So, the middle east in chaos is good for keeping us on top.

[OzmO]

I notice the only countries in the middle-east we attack are the somewhat prosperous countries. Iran has one of the largest armies in the world. They are in the process of developing nuclear technology to power their cities. Iraq had a system of socialised medicine. Women were allowed to go to school, earn degrees. They were one of the most progressive countries in the region. Now Iraq has been reduced to rubble. Murder and looting is rampant. It looks like Iran will meet the same fate. I think the US wants to keep down any Arab country that is doing well for itself.

More than that, they want to rape the profits of it's natural resources.    The stupid American people voted the same wire tapping shit head into office for a second term of more of the same and the rest of the world sees it as supporting an oppressive president. No wonder they hate us.

Sorry guys....  America is full of unelightened idoits.   

[Oliver Klaushof]

I think a bit of it, is that the US enjoys being the only remaining superpower.

If a few of these middle eastern countries got their shit together, they could form a nice alliance, control most of the world's oil output, and create their own little embargo.  They could just sell to their European allies, and make the US buy from them.  This would cripple our economy.  Picture how much your groceries would cost if the truck that brought them to the store was running on gas at $25 a gallon.

So, the middle east in chaos is good for keeping us on top.

I think so. I'm not commenting on the morality of it. It is what it is. I'm sure they would do the same to us.

I feel like we are running on borrowed time though. We don't have stability anymore. The future looks uncertain. This will remain the case as long as these buffoons are elected to office.

If we want to cripple the Arabs we could develop alternative fuel. The technology is definitely there. Bush said that is the answer to the price gouging problem in his state of the union speech. I had to laugh out loud literally. Who is he kidding? This isn't going to happen anytime soon. American politics are completely dominated by lobbyist. The car companies would throw a fit.

[Oliver Klaushof]

More than that, they want to rape the profits of it's natural resources.    The stupid American people voted the same wire tapping shit head into office for a second term of more of the same and the rest of the world sees it as supporting an oppressive president. No wonder they hate us.

Sorry guys....  America is full of unelightened idoits.   

It's not all bad. Bush fooled us twice but I don't think a neo-con will be elected again. McCain could get elected, but at least he's a human being.

[240 is Back]

I feel like we are running on borrowed time though. We don't have stability anymore. The future looks uncertain. This will remain the case as long as these buffoons are elected to office.

If we want to cripple the Arabs we could develop alternative fuel. The technology is definitely there. Bush said that is the answer to the price gouging problem in his state of the union speech. I had to laugh out loud literally. Who is he kidding? This isn't going to happen anytime soon. American politics are completely dominated by lobbyist. The car companies would throw a fit.

The future has always looked scary.  realistically, the govt will keep its people just scared enough to keep them in office.  It's a sad reality.  always been that way.

alternative fuels like ethanol are the future.  Brazil is just about independent in its energy needs from ethanol.  with all our fields, we could do it in a minute.  but the bush oil deal isn't interested in that.  Another 5, 10 years, as the middle east matures and strenthens, we'll see the need for it, it'lol happen quickly, and those in power will coincidentally profit form it.  It's jsut how the system is set up.

The good news is that despite their poor integrity and their selfishness, they think in macro terms.  they don't think about 3000 lives.  They think about what it takes to keep 300,000,000 used to their standard of living.  So statistically, most of us will live our happy little lives and worry a bit, but that'll be it

[Dos Equis]

More than that, they want to rape the profits of it's natural resources.    The stupid American people voted the same wire tapping shit head into office for a second term of more of the same and the rest of the world sees it as supporting an oppressive president. No wonder they hate us.

Sorry guys....  America is full of unelightened idoits.   

I guess that's why we invaded Saudi Arabia. . . .

[headhuntersix]

Yeah they could launch an embargo but since all economies are interconnected this would be the worst possible thing for anybody to do. As far as threads go..this has to be the most idiotic. We feed most of the world as it is. U can't eat oil. I fail to see why anybody cares about what we do to the arabs as they would prefer to kill all of us anyway..liberals especially. As for our wire tapping shit head.

Has anybody on this board been directly affected by the Patriot Act or associated operations..in a negative way. I doubt it. Almost 5 years and no attacks on American soil. And spare me anymore conspiracy theories.  In fact how many have beeen directly affected by the war. How many have served over there..have close friends or family....Served period. I already know most of the guys who have on the board. The price of gas does not count. This war affects the American public only whn they watch TV or get on internet chat rooms. Nobody really cares about the soldiers....the war or anything else. If they did the war protests would be huge. The only way...DRAFT..then all the so called patriots and internet tough guys would be carrying signs whining about having to serve. I think we screwed up in Iraq..I think Rummy is  moron who needs to go....but slamming America because we are keeping the rags down..they do a good enough job of that themselves....

[Dos Equis]

Yeah they could launch an embargo but since all economies are interconnected this would be the worst possible thing for anybody to do. As far as threads go..this has to be the most idiotic. We feed most of the world as it is. U can't eat oil. I fail to see why anybody cares about what we do to the arabs as they would prefer to kill all of us anyway..liberals especially. As for our wire tapping shit head.

Has anybody on this board been directly affected by the Patriot Act or associated operations..in a negative way. I doubt it. Almost 5 years and no attacks on American soil. And spare me anymore conspiracy theories.  In fact how many have beeen directly affected by the war. How many have served over there..have close friends or family....Served period. I already know most of the guys who have on the board. The price of gas does not count. This war affects the American public only whn they watch TV or get on internet chat rooms. Nobody really cares about the soldiers....the war or anything else. If they did the war protests would be huge. The only way...DRAFT..then all the so called patriots and internet tough guys would be carrying signs whining about having to serve. I think we screwed up in Iraq..I think Rummy is  moron who needs to go....but slamming America because we are keeping the rags down..they do a good enough job of that themselves....

I feel your pain man.  I've served and two of my closest friends are in Iraq right now.  We just had dinner with one of their families tonight and they're sleeping over my house.  It's tough on them.  Two little kids. 

I have nothing but the utmost respect for you guys.  Thanks for your sacrifice.

[headhuntersix]

I know i am going to get slammed for some of this but..I don't feel tht America is this horrible place. These guys post this crap and yet fail to enjoy the act that they are free to do so because this horrible government allows them to. Try this crap in China..ur gonna get rounded up. Plus all the bush bashing.. i think they give him to much credit. I agree with u....he's doing his best. He's not doing it to get rich..with the risky adventures we have been on in the last five years..u have to live to spend the cash and with what we have been doing... we're lucky we have not been more seriously attacked.

[JOHN MATRIX]

i miss the old days of imperialism, where europe/the west literally controlled the whole world. things were better off then. but now its politically incorrect ::)bring back colonialism!

[Nordic Superman]

i miss the old days of imperialism, where europe/the west literally controlled the whole world. things were better off then. but now its politically incorrect ::)bring back colonialism!

I too vote for this!

Why the fuck did it ever stop? IDIOTS!

[JOHN MATRIX]

I too vote for this!

Why the f**k did it ever stop? IDIOTS!

ive always wanted to live in this age, say early 1900's....i could write a book on why this period appeals to me. fucking WW2 had to fuck everything up

[24KT]

The future has always looked scary.  realistically, the govt will keep its people just scared enough to keep them in office.  It's a sad reality.  always been that way.

alternative fuels like ethanol are the future.  Brazil is just about independent in its energy needs from ethanol.  with all our fields, we could do it in a minute.  but the bush oil deal isn't interested in that.  Another 5, 10 years, as the middle east matures and strenthens, we'll see the need for it, it'lol happen quickly, and those in power will coincidentally profit form it.  It's jsut how the system is set up.

The good news is that despite their poor integrity and their selfishness, they think in macro terms.  they don't think about 3000 lives.  They think about what it takes to keep 300,000,000 used to their standard of living.  So statistically, most of us will live our happy little lives and worry a bit, but that'll be it

Don't kid yourself 240. They are NOT thinking about what it takes to keep 300,000,000 used to their standard of living. If that were the case they wouldn't have embarked on a course of action that has turned record surplusses into record deficits. They have left America, and Americans subservient and vulnerable, indebted to foreign European private banking interests, and open to hostile take-over and foreign ownership. There is no standard of living when you are mired in debt, which this effort has visited not only on the present generation, but on the descendants of the 300,000,000 for many generations to come. Your dollar is worthless on the world market, and continues to drop like a lead balloon everyday. If they really had a concern for the 300,000,000, development of alternative and renewable fuel sources would have been implemented long ago. There is no "standard of living" when one is dead. If concern was for the 300,000,000, the truth concerning global warming would never have been suppressed, deliberate lies disputing it's veracity would never have been circulated, and innovative technologies like the electric car would not have been killed. Make no mistake, what they are thinking about is all the profits that can be generated from the as yet untapped oil reserves. There are still trillions of barrels worth of oil in the ground, which represent trillions in profits yet to be tapped, and they intend to get it no matter the cost.

[240 is Back]

My feeling is that they love to fearmonger, they love to let us live on the edge and be scared for it, but before there is any crash, we'll just invent a reason to attack some resource-rich nation to stay afloat another ten years.  Why? Cause they just love this system in which they control so much.

[OzmO]

I guess that's why we invaded Saudi Arabia. . . .

We invaded what we could justify invading.  And we certainly wouldn't invade or current business parters when we have such a juicy target in Iraq.

[Dos Equis]

We invaded what we could justify invading.  And we certainly wouldn't invade or current business parters when we have such a juicy target in Iraq.

The argument that we invade wealthy, vulnerable countries makes no sense.  Otherwise, we would control Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.  Instead, we defended both countries and continue to maintain a military presence, partly for their benefit.  We invaded Iraq, and rightfully so, but do we now control Iraqi oil reserves?  No.  Are we profiting from Iraqi oil?  No.  I haven't noticed any extra money in my pocket as a result of this invasion.  This whole invasion to control Iraqi oil is ridiculous IMO. 

Yes I know about Halliburton, no-bid contracts, etc., but so what.  We didn't go to war for Halliburton and there is no evidence to the contrary.

[OzmO]

The argument that we invade wealthy, vulnerable countries makes no sense.  Otherwise, we would control Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.  Instead, we defended both countries and continue to maintain a military presence, partly for their benefit.  We invaded Iraq, and rightfully so, but do we now control Iraqi oil reserves?  No.  Are we profiting from Iraqi oil?  No.  I haven't noticed any extra money in my pocket as a result of this invasion.  This whole invasion to control Iraqi oil is ridiculous IMO. 

Yes I know about Halliburton, no-bid contracts, etc., but so what.  We didn't go to war for Halliburton and there is no evidence to the contrary.

BB,  we (you and i) aren't going to see a dime of that money.  Iraq is BIG business for these companies and they knew going in there they would profit.  We didnot go in there for WMD's.  That was what we were sold as a reason.  Bush and his bakers saw an opportunity to get the oil in the name of FEAR and WMD's and he took it.  Do you even know the companies invovled in iraq?  And the profits they are making?  All the while we get to pay $3 a gallin for gas and exxon posts 8 billion dollar profits. 

[Dos Equis]

BB,  we (you and i) aren't going to see a dime of that money.  Iraq is BIG business for these companies and they knew going in there they would profit.  We didnot go in there for WMD's.  That was what we were sold as a reason.  Bush and his bakers saw an opportunity to get the oil in the name of FEAR and WMD's and he took it.  Do you even know the companies invovled in iraq?  And the profits they are making?  All the while we get to pay $3 a gallin for gas and exxon posts 8 billion dollar profits. 

Let me see if I follow this.  We invented a reason to invade Iraq so we could get control of Iraq's oil, sent our men and women to die over this, are helping them rebuild their country, and are moving to towards turning over control of the country to a new Iraqi government, and at the end of the day we will control Iraq's oil for the sole benefit of a handful of U.S. companies?  Ozmo I just can't follow this one. 

Unless I'm missing something, we don't control Iraq's oil, we (the government) aren't profiting from their oil, and we're going to turn control of the country over in the next year or so, making it impossible for us to control Iraq's oil. 

The U.S. oil companies are an entirely different matter.  Don't even get me started on those guys.  Now THAT is an "evil cabal."  I put them up (or down) there with tobacco companies.  They have to be the only industry in the country that profits no matter how the economy is doing.  They ALWAYS pass along the actual or PROJECTED increase in oil to consumers.  They ALWAYS maintain their profit margin.  Every other industry has to ride with the highs and lows of the economy, while these crooks manipulate their prices sometimes on a daily basis.  I think it's criminal. 

[OzmO]

Let me see if I follow this.  We invented a reason to invade Iraq so we could get control of Iraq's oil, sent our men and women to die over this, are helping them rebuild their country, and are moving to towards turning over control of the country to a new Iraqi government, and at the end of the day we will control their Iraq's oil for the sole benefit of a handful of U.S. companies?  Ozmo I just can't follow this one. 

Unless I'm missing something, we don't control Iraq's oil, we (the government) aren't profiting from their oil, and we're going to turn control of the country over in the next year or so, making it impossible for us to control Iraq's oil. 

The U.S. oil companies are an entirely different matter.  Don't even get me started on those guys.  Now THAT is an "evil cabal."  I put them up (or down) there with tobacco companies.  They have to be the only industry in the country that profits no matter how the economy is doing.  They ALWAYS pass along the actual or PROJECTED increase in oil to consumers.  They ALWAYS maintain their profit margin.  Every other industry has to ride with the highs and lows of the economy, while these crooks manipulate their prices sometimes on a daily basis.  I think it's criminal. 

What happens is this:  We install a "democratic" government;  with in the parameters of their laws and protected by their laws our companies profit from their resources.  We couldn't do that with Sadaam in power.  You see when we trun over control of the government to the iraqis, so long as the government stays demoncratic, we will own interests in their oil.  If there government doen't succeed and gets over thrown then we will have to go back on their to restore "democracy"  which really means restore the government and laws that gives us the legal right to priofit from their oil.

Was it a privately owned company that drilled and produced the oil when sadaam was in power?  I don't think so.

But it is a privatley owned company now.  Hmmm  i wonder where the trail leads.

Democarcy and Captilaism complement each other.  (not that i mind, just that we shouldn't be unaware of it)

[240 is Back]

we don't control the oil.

nope.

but we do own the companies that oversee the pipeline functions.  We did install the puppet regime.  we do maintain the only military presence in the country.  and we do control 99% of iraqi media.  We control their civilian & govt infrastructure. 

We see whatever sanitized info the US govt would like the world to see.  Sure, you have a few asshole soldiers do things like Abu Ghirab, and that gets leaked and it's big news.  Unfortunately, the men running large oil empires are smart enough not to give away such good gossip to cnn.  and even if they did, most would not understand it.

[Dos Equis]

What happens is this:  We install a "democratic" government;  with in the parameters of their laws and protected by their laws our companies profit from their resources.  We couldn't do that with Sadaam in power.  You see when we trun over control of the government to the iraqis, so long as the government stays demoncratic, we will own interests in their oil.  If there government doen't succeed and gets over thrown then we will have to go back on their to restore "democracy"  which really means restore the government and laws that gives us the legal right to priofit from their oil.

Was it a privately owned company that drilled and produced the oil when sadaam was in power?  I don't think so.

But it is a privatley owned company now.  Hmmm  i wonder where the trail leads.

Democarcy and Captilaism complement each other.  (not that i mind, just that we shouldn't be unaware of it)

Which U.S. companies will profit from Iraq's oil after we relinquish control of the country?  Don't say Exxon, Chevron, etc. because those crooks have and will always profit on the backs of American consumers. 

What interest will we own in Iraq's oil? 

This whole thing is about as wild as the 9/11 "conspiracy."  Bush, his cabinet, the military brass, and a handful of U.S. companies in a conspiracy to overthrow Iraq so we can, in some unknown way, allow a handful of U.S. companies to earn even higher profits? 

I think these conspiracy theories are interesting to talk about, but when you try and fill in the blanks and follow the conspiracies to their logical conclusions, they often don't make any sense.  The end result here (increased profits by a handful of companies) doesn't make any sense to me. 

[Oliver Klaushof]

Yeah they could launch an embargo but since all economies are interconnected this would be the worst possible thing for anybody to do. As far as threads go..this has to be the most idiotic. We feed most of the world as it is. U can't eat oil. I fail to see why anybody cares about what we do to the arabs as they would prefer to kill all of us anyway..liberals especially. As for our wire tapping shit head.

Has anybody on this board been directly affected by the Patriot Act or associated operations..in a negative way. I doubt it. Almost 5 years and no attacks on American soil. And spare me anymore conspiracy theories.  In fact how many have beeen directly affected by the war. How many have served over there..have close friends or family....Served period. I already know most of the guys who have on the board. The price of gas does not count. This war affects the American public only whn they watch TV or get on internet chat rooms. Nobody really cares about the soldiers....the war or anything else. If they did the war protests would be huge. The only way...DRAFT..then all the so called patriots and internet tough guys would be carrying signs whining about having to serve. I think we screwed up in Iraq..I think Rummy is  moron who needs to go....but slamming America because we are keeping the rags down..they do a good enough job of that themselves....

All of your post read like a giant run-on sentence.

[Camel Jockey]

AMERICA TRYIN' TO KEEP THE SAND guy DOWN SON.

[OzmO]

Which U.S. companies will profit from Iraq's oil after we relinquish control of the country?  Don't say Exxon, Chevron, etc. because those crooks have and will always profit on the backs of American consumers. 

What interest will we own in Iraq's oil? 

This whole thing is about as wild as the 9/11 "conspiracy."  Bush, his cabinet, the military brass, and a handful of U.S. companies in a conspiracy to overthrow Iraq so we can, in some unknown way, allow a handful of U.S. companies to earn even higher profits? 

I think these conspiracy theories are interesting to talk about, but when you try and fill in the blanks and follow the conspiracies to their logical conclusions, they often don't make any sense.  The end result here (increased profits by a handful of companies) doesn't make any sense to me. 

Haliburton and Becthel to start are making BIG time dukets from this.  Hmm and Cheney was what to haliburton?

There are other companies too,  I'll some research.  Actually Mr. Intenseone had a site he linked on the forum a couple of months ago about Bill Clinton that talked about these companies in iraq on another part of the same site.

It's not a conspiracy theory.  We do this sort of thing all over the 3rd world.  Its a type of econiomic warfare.  It's of the reasons we are such a strong country.  I'm OK with it to a point.  But i'm not unaware of it.