Author Topic: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!  (Read 18295 times)

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Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« on: January 16, 2005, 09:28:55 PM »
Q: After the 20th of January, do you expect to see consumers arrested by the cops for getting caught with a stash of prohormones that they stocked up on?

A: Unlikely in the near future.  While anyone who possesses the newly controlled products will be a drug criminal, for now the products will be controlled only at the federal level (with very limited exceptions).  This is important, since most steroid cases are brought in state courts, not federal courts.  If the products aren’t scheduled by state laws, state courts can’t prosecute them as a controlled substance crime.  Unless and until individual states pass legislation to make their laws consistent with the new federal law, which could take several months or even years, state authorities will have little incentive to go after prohormones.

Q: What about the Feds? Will they start going after prohormone consumers?

A: Possibly, although it’s doubtful that this would be an immediate priority for the DEA.  Although the federal government can prosecute possession of any amount of a controlled substance, under the current U.S. Sentencing Guidelines (the system that determines federal criminal punishments) you’d need 12,500 prohormone tablets just to reach a Base Offense Level of 8 (0 to 6 months imprisonment, with straight probation available if a generally clean record), and 50,000 prohormone tablets just to reach a Base Offense Level of 10 (facing at most 6 to 12 months imprisonment if a generally clean record).  So, although the maximum sentence by law for a first offense will be one year in prison, probation will be probable in the overwhelming number of potential cases.

Q: How likely is it for someone who has something sitting in their fridge to be arrested?

A: There are too many variables to answer that.  Life is full of surprises, and no ethical lawyer, myself included, would advise anyone to possess any controlled substance unlawfully [for all the reasons in Legal Muscle].  Regardless, the people who have stocked up on prohormones have figured that the chances of getting caught are less once the item’s safely in one’s home.  It’s true, based on the hundreds of steroid possession cases I’ve seen in my practice, that the vast majority of people who’ve been arrested for steroid possession got caught during the process of receiving or importing the drugs, not after they had them hidden in their house.  All things considered, I don’t see an epidemic of prohormone arrests in the immediate future.  But with prohormone prohibition, I see an impending rise in the black market of foreign veterinary steroids and resulting prosecutions for these products in state courts.

Q: What about the manufacturers and retailers?  Are they in jeopardy?

A: Yes, if they remain in possession of products that are now controlled drugs.  But most if not all companies have liquidated their stock and moved on to developing new sports nutrition products that are still legal.  Some of the more popular products may remain on the market in foreign countries, if legally permitted by those countries’ laws.  Some companies will investigate marketing new steroidal compounds that are not listed in the new law, although the legality of these products depends not only upon compliance with the new steroid law but also with the Dietary Supplements Health and Education Act (DSHEA).  This may become more relevant than ever before now that FDA has taken a heightened interest in products containing “new dietary ingredients” that were not on the market back in 1994, the year DSHEA was enacted.  Products containing new dietary ingredients must meet certain criteria or risk being branded “adulterated” and removed from the market, as happened to androstenedione last year.  Under FDA’s new enforcement priorities and evolving standards, safety data on new dietary ingredients will come to be expected.

Rick Collins

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2005, 09:48:18 PM »
hmmm ::)
Wait for it....

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2005, 10:40:34 PM »
While I doubt that the local police or even state police will go after users, I do not doubt that the federal government and their agents will start cracking down on wholesale companies and manufacturers that will produce or bring in in from another country.

Most of the cops that I spoke to say that is is the least of their agenda.

But on a federal level, they are looking for people or companies who want to bring it into the United States or continue to market them.

However, I hope some people won't start selling it on E-Bay thinking it's legal, as that is one of the easiest ways to get caught.

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2005, 11:08:49 PM »
Steroids work and have been illegal a lot longer  :D

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2005, 07:07:59 AM »
No great loss, does anyone actually use prohormones??

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2005, 12:51:33 PM »
No loss at all, pro hormones are for high school kids, anyone that lifts seriously knows what works. The same stuff bb'ers were using 20-30 years ago, and I doubt that's gonna change anytime soon.

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2005, 09:20:08 PM »
I don't think anyone in their right mind would use things like 5-ad or any of those things, but 1-test and those new methylated compounds seem to be the real deal. Methinks that some of 'em would make a good addition to a regular gear cycle.

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2005, 09:24:20 PM »
I got this email sent down through my management at work(military). What I found interesting is that andro will now be considered along the same lines as cocaine and heroin.

Sir/Ma'am,

On 22 Oct 04, the President signed into law a Bill known as the "Andro Ban." The law, which takes effect 20 Jan 05, adds 18 substances to the list of banned anabolic steroids in the Controlled Substances Act (21 USC 802). The term "anabolic steroid" means any drug or hormonal substance, chemically and pharmacologically related to testosterone (other than estrogens, progestins, and corticosteroids) that promotes muscle growth. The most significant of these is androstenedione, a steroid precursor known as "andro" in the bodybuilding community. Under the new law, andro and andro supplements (to include commonly-used 1AD and 4AD), which are currently available in virtually all health and fitness stores, will be classified as Schedule III controlled substances, similar to cocaine and heroin. As of 20 Jan 05, these substances may no longer be legally purchased. It will also be illegal to use them, even if they were bought before 20 Jan 05.

Please disseminate widely. If a member possesses or uses these products after 20 Jan 05, they may face UCMJ action. If a member of your command is unclear if a substance is specifically banned, they may look it up online using 21 USC 802 as a reference or call the legal office at 480-5911.

V/R

Capt ***********

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2005, 01:01:40 AM »
I got this email sent down through my management at work(military). What I found interesting is that andro will now be considered along the same lines as cocaine and heroin.

Sir/Ma'am,

On 22 Oct 04, the President signed into law a Bill known as the "Andro Ban." The law, which takes effect 20 Jan 05, adds 18 substances to the list of banned anabolic steroids in the Controlled Substances Act (21 USC 802). The term "anabolic steroid" means any drug or hormonal substance, chemically and pharmacologically related to testosterone (other than estrogens, progestins, and corticosteroids) that promotes muscle growth. The most significant of these is androstenedione, a steroid precursor known as "andro" in the bodybuilding community. Under the new law, andro and andro supplements (to include commonly-used 1AD and 4AD), which are currently available in virtually all health and fitness stores, will be classified as Schedule III controlled substances, similar to cocaine and heroin. As of 20 Jan 05, these substances may no longer be legally purchased. It will also be illegal to use them, even if they were bought before 20 Jan 05.

Please disseminate widely. If a member possesses or uses these products after 20 Jan 05, they may face UCMJ action. If a member of your command is unclear if a substance is specifically banned, they may look it up online using 21 USC 802 as a reference or call the legal office at 480-5911.

V/R

Capt ***********

I tried it when it first came out and ended up trashing most of the bottle.  So it doesn't affect me either way, but I have to say, this is fking gay.  Yes fking gay to the maximum extreme of gaping gayness.  The same as cocaine and heroine; if Capt fucktard really believes those words, he is a retard.  Is this "post 9-11 era" suppose to feel like we've been plunged into a cold war era soviet stlye police state.  I mean because day by day if freakin seams like it.  I guess you can always go do "it" in Mexico, whatever "it" may be, it's the American way.

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2005, 04:57:58 AM »
No great loss, does anyone actually use prohormones??
EXACTLY! They are/were a waist of money. No biggie that they'll be gone. Ephedra...now that's different story, I miss my Ripped Fuel :'(

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2005, 01:56:31 PM »
No great loss, does anyone actually use prohormones??

Nope not me. I like having my testicles the regular size. ;)

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2005, 02:20:00 PM »
it is sad to see something so beautiful go, when i didn't even get a chance to use the real gear. Doesn't matter, when I move to USA I'll go to the southern border and stay in the Mexician country and do my cycle there, and come back and do my PCT in USA. It is all good, I guess.  :-\
GspotRocksGspot

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2005, 01:02:22 AM »
i wish they'd come out with the stronger methylated biologically active hormones first so people wouldn't rip on anything that's not a traditional compound.  these drugs work, but weren't pursued pharmaceutically for various reasons, or because other alternatives were already available.  the ones that need conversion (like 4ad or androstenedione) are much less useful.

rick's advice -- and prognostications -- are excellent as always.

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2005, 08:03:39 PM »
I got this email sent down through my management at work(military). What I found interesting is that andro will now be considered along the same lines as cocaine and heroin.

Sir/Ma'am,

On 22 Oct 04, the President signed into law a Bill known as the "Andro Ban." The law, which takes effect 20 Jan 05, adds 18 substances to the list of banned anabolic steroids in the Controlled Substances Act (21 USC 802). The term "anabolic steroid" means any drug or hormonal substance, chemically and pharmacologically related to testosterone (other than estrogens, progestins, and corticosteroids) that promotes muscle growth. The most significant of these is androstenedione, a steroid precursor known as "andro" in the bodybuilding community. Under the new law, andro and andro supplements (to include commonly-used 1AD and 4AD), which are currently available in virtually all health and fitness stores, will be classified as Schedule III controlled substances, similar to cocaine and heroin. As of 20 Jan 05, these substances may no longer be legally purchased. It will also be illegal to use them, even if they were bought before 20 Jan 05.

Please disseminate widely. If a member possesses or uses these products after 20 Jan 05, they may face UCMJ action. If a member of your command is unclear if a substance is specifically banned, they may look it up online using 21 USC 802 as a reference or call the legal office at 480-5911.

V/R

Capt ***********

I;m sure that they won't start urine testing for that, it's not worth it to the military, if they catch you red handed that's another story.

goatboyIII

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2005, 10:23:14 PM »
As of 20 Jan 05, these substances may no longer be legally purchased. It will also be illegal to use them, even if they were bought before 20 Jan 05.

That's the part that's stupid as hell. You can legally buy a bottle of prohormones in a regular store on the evening of Jan 19th, then be busted for having them in your posession the next morning.

If anyone in congress had two brain cells to rub together, they would have put a lag time of say six months or more between the date it's illegal to sell and the date it's illegal to possess. It's utterly ridiculous that you could be prosecuted for posessing something you purchased completely legally.

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2005, 11:01:12 PM »
That's our government in the good 'ol US of A for you. They are worried more about pro-hormones than keeping our schools safe from child predators, heroin dealers and other scumbags.  (classifying 1 AD the same as heroin is a joke). I have never used pro-hormones or 'roids. However, I do not condemn those that do. It's their choice to use gear or pro-hormones.  Our government needs to focus on keeping our streets safe and spending money to keep our military safe & well equipped for the war on terror. It's a shame that politicians will vote no to giving our military state of the art equipment and then vote yes to banning Andro. Who is a bigger threat to mankind? Osama and his terrorist dirtbags or 1AD?

By the way, has anyone heard of the ex-post facto law? The law that states you can not prosecute someone after the fact. If you bought 1-AD, M1T yesterday you should not be able to be prosecuted for having it in your possesion after the fact. Looks like our wonderful & caring politicians forgot to enforce that law.

Thank you for serving our country captain, I only wish your employer would treat you guys with the respect you deserve. Your employer needs to worry about keeping you guys & the ladies in the military safe & well equipped to fight low life scum like Osama, not whether or not you are using 1AD, M1T etc.  Drop the ex-post facto law on their @$$ and see what they say.

goatboyIII

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2005, 12:01:57 AM »
By the way, has anyone heard of the ex-post facto law? The law that states you can not prosecute someone after the fact. If you bought 1-AD, M1T yesterday you should not be able to be prosecuted for having it in your possesion after the fact. Looks like our wonderful & caring politicians forgot to enforce that law.

Actually, ex post facto wouldn't apply to what you're describing. An ex post facto law would be where you commit a perfectly legal act on Monday, then on Tuesday they pass a law making that act illegal, and you get arrested because you had done it on Monday, before it was illegal.

In the case of prohormones, if you buy it legally on the 19th, then are arrested for possessing it on the 21st, the offense you're commiting is possession, on the 21st, after it is illegal to possess.  You're not being arrested for buying it on the 19th, so there's no ex post facto.

So, legally, they can get away with this. But as I said, from a common-sense standpoint, it's ridiculous that you could buy something legally one day, then be expected to throw it away a day later or risk being arrested for possession.

Blake Physical

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2005, 01:13:05 AM »
'Andro' ban starts tomorrow

Supplement fans stock up

BY SCOTT BLAKE
FLORIDA TODAY

Richard Young has gone to Physical Addictions, a local bodybuilding supplements store, to buy muscle-building "prohormones." The 56-year-old Melbourne Beach resident said he takes the pills to enhance his bodybuilding, weight lifting and martial-arts efforts.

I think it's helped my bodybuilding," Young said.

But that's all about to change for him and everyone else who takes prohormones, or other products containing androstenedione and variations of it.

Starting Friday, the federal government is banning the sale, purchase and use of prohormones and "andro" products without a prescription. Anyone caught with the substances, which are supposed to turn into testosterone when ingested, could face prison and fines.

Authorities say prohormones can cause the same bad effects as anabolic steroids, including liver damage, hair loss, impotence, acne, and increased risk of heart disease or other internal problems.

Because of the ban, Young and others have been stocking up on the supplements before they become illegal for over-the-counter sales, resulting in a temporary spurt in business for Physical Addictions and other supplement stores and suppliers.

Rick Martis, who owns Physical Addictions with partner Frank Heinze, said their sales of prohormones have doubled in recent weeks, with some customers spending up to several thousand dollars on the products, which can cost up to $70 or $80 a bottle. They say their store in Indialantic sells to walk-in customers, and also takes orders by telephone or the Internet from customers in other states and countries -- including members of the military in Iraq.

The products are sold by various names, and come in pill, powder and liquid forms.

Martis and Heinze, who have been in the business for 16 years, said there is plenty of politics and not enough science behind the andro ban.

"We think people should have a choice as adults on whether to buy it or not to buy it," Martis said.

The ban is part of a crackdown on athletic-performance-enhancing supplements in the wake of major scandals involving professional athletes.

It follows the government's ban last year on fat-burning and weight-loss products containing ephedrine, a stimulant that boosts heart rate and metabolism, after a number of people taking the supplements suffered heart attacks or other heart problems.

In October, President Bush signed a bill declaring andro a "schedule III controlled substance" -- the same category in which anabolic steroids were placed by the government 15 years ago because of the known and potential adverse effects.

Prohormones gained notoriety after former pro baseball slugger Mark McGwire admitted using andro during his record-setting home-run season in 1998.

In recent years, the bodybuilding supplements industry has marketed prohormones as mild versions of steroids that boost strength and stamina, while helping the user build more muscle, burn more fat and recover from workouts faster.

Gus Barni, president of Atlas Operations, a maker of prohormones and other sports-nutrition products in Pompano Beach, said the government has done a poor job of informing the public and those in the industry about the ban, as well as how it will be enforced.

Barni said he thinks the ban will create "a massive black market" for steroids. He said his company is working on an herbal alternative to prohormones, although he said it will be hard to match the strength of the latest prohormone products.

Martis and Heinze said the industry has "pushed the envelop" with the latest products that more closely mimic steroids.

However, they said the andro ban stands to enrich pharmaceutical companies, because many bodybuilders, athletes and fitness buffs will go back to buying steroids "on the streets" or seeing doctors to get testosterone-boosting drugs by prescription.

"While andro products may seem to have short-term benefits, the science shows that these same properties create real and significant health risks," said Food and Drug Administration Commissioner Mark McClellan. "There is no proven safe substitute for hard work and training when it comes to improving athletic skill. We will do all we can to protect Americans against companies that seek to profit by trying to convince consumers otherwise."

However, older bodybuilders such as Young said prohormones provide a nice anti-aging "edge" for them at an age when their natural testosterone levels have declined since youth. Young and others said the products seem to be safe if the recommended doses are not exceeded.

"I had some blood work done and my liver checked, and everything was OK," Young said. "I got my testosterone levels checked, and they were a little above normal for my age, which I think is a good thing. It keeps my sex drive."

Jim Pettis, 29, a self-described "natural" bodybuilder who works at Hawk's Gym in Indialantic, said he started taking prohormones about three years ago to help him prepare for bodybuilding contests, but he stopped taking the products a few months ago because he felt his body adapted to it and the benefits wore off.

But he called it "stupid" to make prohormones illegal.

"At least, up until now, it's been a safe alternative to the black market," Pettis said.

Dennis Leary, another young fitness buff, said he tried prohormones several years ago, only for a few weeks, but stopped because he felt the products were giving him "mood swings." Now, protein powders, amino acids and creatine -- a substance produced by the body for muscle contraction -- are the only supplements he buys.

"I don't think the government should ban (andro) because it might affect other people differently than it affected me," Leary said while shopping for protein powder at Physical Addictions

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2005, 01:15:30 AM »
Pumping Supplements: Bodybuilders Face New Limits As `Andro,' Other Prohormones Join Steroids As Controlled Substances

January 18, 2005
By JOHN JURGENSEN

The capsules are advertised with a warning.
"Caution: HUGE gains, BIG bodies, and ULTIMATE power may result!"

It's a claim that any weightlifter gets accustomed to. But in the case of this product - 4-androstenediol - and others like it for sale on bodybuilding.com, the results are apparently real enough to make them the most popular and controversial muscle builders this side of anabolic steroids.

Because of the reported effects (and side effects) of this family of sports supplements, Paul Carson doesn't stock them beside the energy bars and tubs of protein powder for sale at his Powerhouse Gym.

"It's not vitamin C. It's an aggressive supplement," said Carson, co-owner of the Berlin fitness center.

But he's not one to preach to his members. "It's not a product I believe in, but I'll get it for you. ... If you're 21, if you're healthy, I'll sell it to you."

Within the week, however, Carson won't have to make that judgment call. As of Thursday, the supplements he has occasionally sold on the side will be considered illegal without a prescription under federal legislation signed into law last October by President Bush. A response to the doping scandal that has enveloped professional sports in recent years, the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2004 widens the scope of the law passed in 1991 to list steroids as controlled substances.

The result of the new law so far has been a shopping rush on the soon-to-be-outlawed capsules, creams and sprays as proponents stock up and manufacturers unload their supplies.

The supplements in question are called prohormones. Also known as steroid precursors, they're a chemical step away from human hormones. As the body breaks down these compounds, they get converted into testosterone, which manufacturers say builds muscles.

Mainstream America's first introduction to prohormones came in 1998, when home run phenomenon Mark McGwire said he recovered from weightlifting sessions by using androstenedione. "Andro," the term that tends to stand for all prohormones, was banned by Major League Baseball last year. People who don't know a nitric oxide gel from a glutamine powder may lump andro into the same category as creatine, another supplement McGwire used. But creatine, which is said to supply energy and hasten weight gain, will remain on the shelves after this week.

"The side effects of creatine are minuscule compared to andro," said Dr. Carl Nissen, an orthopedic surgeon at the University of Connecticut Health Center who has studied the use of sports supplements among the state's high school athletes.

No clinical studies have been conducted to monitor the long-term health impact of andro. But even fans of the supplement swap information about its potential side effects, which mirror those from steroid abuse. Although doctors regularly prescribe steroids for other medical purposes, men who use them to bulk up tamper with their hormone levels, which can result in acne, enlarged breasts, premature baldness and a swollen prostate.

Nissen cites such alarming symptoms when he confronts athletes he suspects of using harmful performance enhancers. "I tell them their [testicles] are going to shrink. That usually gets them to pay attention," he said.

But Nick, 21, who occasionally incorporates andro into his workout regimen, says he hasn't experienced any such thing. "I don't use it a lot, so I don't see it as having any adverse effect," he said in a telephone interview in which he would not reveal his last name. "Sometimes I'd feel aggressive or edgy during the day, but it's not like you feel completely different."

In advance of the ban, Nick recently bought a 180-capsule supply of andro online for $80. The results, he said, can be measured in both muscle and motivation.

"You can see a better pump when you work out ... at the end of two or three weeks, I put on about 5 pounds of pretty solid muscle," he said, adding that "it's also a mental thing. Every once in a while you get bored and need something to motivate you to work harder."

For long-term lifters, this quest for the next level poses a constant challenge. It fills the pages of magazines like Flex and Muscular Development, and it fuels the $19.8 billion nutritional-supplement industry, of which sports nutrition products (including andro) account for nearly $2 billion, according to the Nutrition Business Journal.

Hence the hoarding of andro.

"We're sold out of everything right now," said Wayne Gomes, a sales manager for Dynamic Marketing, a supplement warehouse in Rhode Island. "Nobody [on the supply side] wants to get stuck with it. This is illegal to possess. We can't have it on our shelves."

There were only about a dozen prohormone products in Dynamic Marketing's catalog of 2,000 items, Gomes said, but they were some of the most popular and profitable.

"They were products that worked," said Gomes. He has tried andro and says it's silly to put it in the same league with steroids, as the new law does. "We're talking about comparing a Maserati to a Yugo."

That's one reason, said Rick Collins, an attorney who specializes in defending steroid cases, that the government is taking the wrong approach by banning andro outright. The ban will only create a black market for andro products from China, India and elsewhere, Collins said.

"I don't think those products ever should have been available to high school athletes. But I think mature adults who are informed of all risks should have the freedom to make their own choices," he said.

Tom and April Ciaffaglione eventually decided against andro. Ultimately, its costs (physical and monetary) outweighed its benefits.

"At $40 a bottle, I probably might have been better off buying more steak and chicken," said Tom, 28, who has become an apostle of a more old-fashioned approach to muscle gain, including a high-protein diet. He often consumes a dozen eggs for breakfast.

On a shelf in the Bristol apartment where the couple and their two daughters live stand a pair of muscled bronze bulldogs. These are first-place trophies the couple brought home from their first strongman competition in 2003. More concerned with power than appearance, strongman competitors can sometimes be seen on television stacking boulders, hurling tires and pulling trucks in a sort of decathlon of brute strength.

The Ciaffagliones are putting their muscle - Tom bench-presses almost 500 pounds, April 200 - into organizing Connecticut's first strongman event, an amateur contest to be held March 19 in New Haven to benefit the Connecticut Children's Medical Center.

Tom, a chemical engineer who works for a cosmetics company, has an encyclopedic knowledge of performance enhancers. He uses a kit to make capsules at home out of a white powder said to boost brain power.

But this willingness to experiment almost killed him in college after he drank a glass of water with a few grams of dinitrophenol dissolved in it. DNP, which is also used in photochemicals and explosives, had been talked up in weightlifting circles as a fat burner. It burned so much fat on Tom's body that his temperature shot up to critical levels, landing him in the hospital for a week, where he says a priest read him his last rites.

"After that I watched what I took," he said.

The Ciaffagliones experimented briefly with andro, spraying it on their bodies before workouts. They agree that it temporarily helped them pump up and served as an incentive to trudge down the stairs to their weight room in the garage.

But Tom wasn't won over by the results. And April had her own reasons for dropping the testosterone trigger.

"It would tend to cause hair to grow where I sprayed it, and I did not want to be a hairy-backed female," said April, 29. "Not knowing the long-term effects of using it scares me enough to stay away from it. People talk about the chance of kidney failure and cancer. I say, no, thank you. I have kids to take care of."

When it comes to andro - and other shortcuts to strength - the biggest concern is their use by teenagers who may not have the maturity or patience to make such rational decisions.

The drug policy at Southington High School, for example, requires counseling and a two-week suspension from sports for any athlete caught using illegal substances such as alcohol or steroids. After Thursday, presumably andro will be added to that list. But until now, coaches could only try to persuade athletes not to use it, said Jude Kelly, head coach of the football team.

"As far as some of the other [supplements], all we can do is discourage the use of things that aren't natural," said Kelly. "But there's a gray area. Where do you draw the line? At what point is it too much? That's why you have to stick to the basics."

Raw

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2005, 01:57:39 AM »
Good ole America.... Land of the free.  ye right.

suckmymuscle

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2005, 01:40:26 AM »
Why even bother about pro-hormones? The conversion rate is ridiculously low, anyway. Also, the steroids they get converted into, testosterone and nandrolone, are not effective on those doses. It could be different if they got converted into methandrostenolone or trenbolone. Just take ZMA before sleeping.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2005, 12:22:52 PM »
Good ole America.... Land of the free.  ye right.
Hey, America will always be the land of the free,.... as long as the Mexican border stays open :-\

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2005, 10:21:04 PM »
Goatboy,

Thanks for clearing that up. I agree with you. Being arrested for posession after you legallly bought it the day before is assinine. But then again, that's our governement for you. The are worried more about pro-hormones than they are keeping child molesters and terrori sts behind bars.

pushinweightwi

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2005, 07:43:22 AM »
I like the story of the women who said andro spray made her hair grow were she applied it, and also said she stopped because she did not know the long term effects.  Weather you liked PH/PS a it is people like this that get liberties taken away from all of us.  "Didn't know the long term effects,"  Its a F#&*ING androgen you idiot of course it is not recommended for a women.  Also the article portrays her husband as some supp/drug genius(after all he manages to successfully use a cap-m-kwik) yet the guy has his wife on andro spray and drank water with GRAMS!!! of DNP.  Anyone that takes that amount of DNP and dies i chock up to natural selection.

BeNaBoLiC

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Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions!
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2005, 10:36:09 PM »
HAHAHAHA<<<< sh*t. Grams of DNP. YOu mean deaht candy. People are so dumb. THe media is worse. Our gobenment is dispicable. People, its all about the prescription drug companies, and them not getting their cut. They see the otc supplement bisuness booming from 1-ad and 1-test sales, so they "lobby" (pay) congress to pass bills to ban it. Same thing with ephedra. Doctors and Prescription drug companies want complete market share, 100%. They are slowly getting rid of the supplement market. Next it could be on the news that creatine and protien place too much stress on the kidneys and liver. WE might hear stories of people dropping dead from these things, then a law will be passed saying we can only get these with prescription at lower doses too. HA, great country, we are in a war that has turned out to be as successful as vietnam, and W gets a second term. When we arent even able to lify weights anymore,mabey you all will get the point and wont voe for an @sshole.
Remember you control the wheight; not visversa!!!!