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And now Pence...
Wayne Tracker:
--- Quote from: Agnostic007 on January 31, 2023, 11:44:50 PM ---I don't know that the raid was unnecessary as it seems the information as it was reported was all other means were exhausted. I do agree with you on the "Biden still did it"
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Correctomundo
Trump was given an extraordinary amount of time to produce the missing government property and it was only after he continued to obstruct that the FBI was able to obtain a search warrant for his property
--- Quote ---While there are criminal statutes that hinge on classification, they aren’t among the criminal offenses that the FBI included on the search warrant. To the contrary, all three of the criminal provisions that the FBI did list can be—and two routinely are—applied to misconduct that has absolutely nothing to do with classified information, making it unclear whether Trump’s claims of declassification would make any difference even if true.
The first provision listed, 18 U.S.C. § 1519, is an obstruction of justice provision that makes it a crime to knowingly alter, conceal, destroy, or falsify “any record, document, or tangible object[,]” so long as it’s done with the intent to impede or influence a federal investigation or other process. It’s unclear whether the Justice Department included § 1519 on the search warrant because it believes records held at Mar-a-Lago have been concealed or manipulated in violation of § 1519, or because members of Trump’s team may have generated false records as part of the extended negotiations over the retrieval of those records (such as the inventory that one or more of Trump’s lawyers reportedly signed in June 2022 asserting, incorrectly, that all classified documents had been turned over). Either way, whether the records held at Mar-a-Lago are classified or not is irrelevant, as the Justice Department routinely brings successful § 1519 charges in relation to records that are entirely unclassified, such as police reports and records of maritime waste disposal.
The second provision, 18 U.S.C. § 2071, similarly applies to any effort to willfully and unlawfully conceal, mutilate, or destroy “any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document, or other thing” that is “filed or deposited with any clerk or officer of any court of the United States, or in any public office, or with any judicial or public officer of the United States[.]” This language has been understood to cover efforts to conceal or destroy just about any sort of public record for well over a century. Consistent with this view, the Justice Department has described § 2071 as “a broad prohibition” covering “acts [that] involve either misappropriation of or damage to public records” without regard to whether they are classified and has successfully brought charges in relation to unclassified records ranging from Selective Service records to military flight logs.
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https://www.lawfareblog.com/does-it-matter-what-if-anything-trump-declassified
It's almost completely irrelevant whether the documents were classified or not. They are all government property and when the governments tells you that you have their property and you need to return it and you don't comply and in fact obstruct then you've got a problem
Also, it's almost a certainty that none of the docs we "declassified". There is a process for declassification of docs and it takes time and involves multiple agencies within the government. The POTUS can't declassify something by thinking about it. What an absolutely moronic claim. If Biden had said this the right wing media would have lost their fucking minds.
Also, no one in the Trump administration can confirm Trumps claims (quite the contrary actually) and no one in his administration can confirm that he somehow changed the de-classification process.
Bottom line is that the docs were almost certainly NOT declassified AND it doesn't really matter that much if they were or not.
Declassified or not, they still don't belong to Trump
loco:
--- Quote from: Wayne Tracker on February 01, 2023, 10:35:29 AM ---Correctomundo
Trump was given an extraordinary amount of time to produce the missing government property and it was only after he continued to obstruct that the FBI was able to obtain a search warrant for his property
https://www.lawfareblog.com/does-it-matter-what-if-anything-trump-declassified
It's almost completely irrelevant whether the documents were classified or not. They are all government property and when the governments tells you that you have their property and you need to return it and you don't comply and in fact obstruct then you've got a problem
Also, it's almost a certainty that none of the docs we "declassified". There is a process for declassification of docs and it takes time and involves multiple agencies within the government. The POTUS can't declassify something by thinking about it. What an absolutely moronic claim. If Biden had said this the right wing media would have lost their fucking minds.
Also, no one in the Trump administration can confirm Trumps claims (quite the contrary actually) and no one in his administration can confirm that he somehow changed the de-classification process.
Bottom line is that the docs were almost certainly NOT declassified AND it doesn't really matter that much if they were or not.
Declassified or not, they still don't belong to Trump
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Hi Straw!
Primemuscle:
--- Quote from: chaos on January 30, 2023, 03:51:22 PM ---Not sure what your point is here stalker. I would say my post history reflects a 17 year growth pattern and change of opinions/views, probably farther to the right thanks to people like you.
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Stalking - Driven to the right - My pleasure. ;D
Primemuscle:
--- Quote from: Dos Equis on January 30, 2023, 07:39:24 PM ---You do realize an EO is not a law and cannot contradict either a law or the Constitution? And yes the limitation on the VP's authority is exactly what I said.
Biden's situation is nothing like Trump's situation. The three most glaring differences are Trump had declassification authority before leaving office, while Biden did not. Trump took documents with him and the FBI knew, while Biden had documents for six to sixteen years and nobody knew. Trump had documents in a room protected by secret service, with a lock requested by the FBI, while Biden had documents in multiple locations, including a garage frequented by his crackhead son. No comparison.
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Does Obama's executive order contradict the law or the Constitution? If so, can you provide a link to the law it contradicts?
Executive Orders are issued by the White House and are used to direct the Executive Branch of the U.S. Government. Executive Orders state mandatory requirements for the Executive Branch, and have the effect of law. They are issued in relation to a law passed by Congress or based on powers granted to the President in the Constitution and must be consistent with those authorities. Executive Orders are given numbers and abbreviated as “EO XXXXX”. Executive Orders are numbered in ascending order, so a higher number means the order was given more recently. Executive Orders may amend earlier orders.
https://www.phe.gov/s3/law/Pages/ExecOrders.aspx#:~:text=Executive%20Orders%20state%20mandatory%20requirements,be%20consistent%20with%20those%20authorities.
Dos Equis:
--- Quote from: Primemuscle on February 01, 2023, 02:40:34 PM ---Does Obama's executive order contradict the law or the Constitution? If so, can you provide a link to the law it contradicts?
Executive Orders are issued by the White House and are used to direct the Executive Branch of the U.S. Government. Executive Orders state mandatory requirements for the Executive Branch, and have the effect of law. They are issued in relation to a law passed by Congress or based on powers granted to the President in the Constitution and must be consistent with those authorities. Executive Orders are given numbers and abbreviated as “EO XXXXX”. Executive Orders are numbered in ascending order, so a higher number means the order was given more recently. Executive Orders may amend earlier orders.
https://www.phe.gov/s3/law/Pages/ExecOrders.aspx#:~:text=Executive%20Orders%20state%20mandatory%20requirements,be%20consistent%20with%20those%20authorities.
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If you are telling me executive orders trump the law and the Constitution then I'm not wasting my time this. This is high school civics stuff.
And everything I said about classification and declassification authority is accurate.
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