Author Topic: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon  (Read 30268 times)

kh300

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #100 on: December 21, 2006, 11:57:52 AM »
no, my facts are different. your ct sites have a timeline and a story of what they "believe" happend. everything that proves them wrong is either left out,, or the facts get changed.

Straw Man

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #101 on: December 21, 2006, 02:10:34 PM »
I like these points from your site Straw:


1) The perpetrators would have to have decided on what type of aircraft and what the wingspan of the "imaginary" plane would be in advance.
2) They would have to have agreed on a flight-path and predetermined the poles to be "damaged".
3) They would have to have had caused the poles to break up high and at the base assuming an imaginary altitude for the aircraft.
4) They would have to have had total control of all witnesses in the area including suppressing the witnesses who noticed the poles falling for no reason.
5) They would have to have had briefed the controlled witnesses on the type of plane, the flight-path, the poles being hit and the change to the engine sound.
6) They would have to have synchronized the falling of the poles with the explosion at the wall.


Some other points:

He doesn't ask how they made the passengers disappear - yes the bodies (lack thereof) and autopsy anomolies still remain. Since the FBI took control of the remains how do we really know what happened
Who line the passengers up and killed them - who says that is what happened
And where the plane went (planes are like cars in that many of their parts are serial numbered) but hiding a whole plane is completely differnt than dismanteling a car. have parts with serial # and such been presented anywhere - I don't know so if you do please explain

the info you cut and pasted is from a section where the author attempts to explain the problems with the "no plane" theory

NO PLANE

If there was no plane or an aircraft with a wingspan of less than 100 feet then the light pole damage would still have to be accounted for. The no plane proponents suggest a faking of this damage. I will just list the implications of this scenario since I have not come across a realistic explanation for how this could have been done.

1) The perpetrators would have to have decided on what type of aircraft and what the wingspan of the "imaginary" plane would be in advance.
2) They would have to have agreed on a flight-path and predetermined the poles to be "damaged".
3) They would have to have had caused the poles to break up high and at the base assuming an imaginary altitude for the aircraft.
4) They would have to have had total control of all witnesses in the area including suppressing the witnesses who noticed the poles falling for no reason.
5) They would have to have had briefed the controlled witnesses on the type of plane, the flight-path, the poles being hit and the change to the engine sound.
6) They would have to have synchronized the falling of the poles with the explosion at the wall.

That gives just some idea of what you are up against in a no plane scenario. Keep in mind when you look at the photos in the sidebars there is no evidence of explosives at the upper break or the base of the poles. Also, remember they would have gone to all of this trouble to account for about 12 feet of altitude. Why not just say the plane came in at a slightly steeper angle?

* The information on the poles is representative of the poles in the area. They had different manufacturers and distributors over the years. I could not acquire information specific to the exact poles impacted. One of the main manufacturers is Union Metal.






 

a_joker10

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #102 on: December 21, 2006, 02:28:03 PM »
It's kinda cheesy to be arguing the "no-plane" theory, when the DoD has not yet proven the "yes-plane" theory :)

http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build03/PDF/b03017.pdf
 8)
Z

Straw Man

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #103 on: December 21, 2006, 02:58:12 PM »
It's kinda cheesy to be arguing the "no-plane" theory, when the DoD has not yet proven the "yes-plane" theory :)

nothing is too cheesy for this place.  Besides the author of the website is not arguing for the "no plane" vs. "plane" he's just presenting some issues that would need to be explained (in lieu of additional info) were this event to be the result of something other than the plane that allegedly hit the building.  Who's to say the things he has raised are even a complete list. 

Straw Man

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #104 on: December 21, 2006, 03:05:03 PM »
also from the same site:

OFFICIAL STORY SUMMARY



The complex international plot was never discovered by intelligence agencies.

19 Arab hijackers evaded security on 4 different flights from 3 different international airports with knives, box cutters, mace and bombs in their possession.

Hani Hanjour who had been refused the rental of a Cessna 172 3 1/2 weeks prior to 9/11 navigated an aircraft he had never flown before from the Ohio/Kentucky border and located the Pentagon in Washington D.C.. He was reading a 757 manual on the way to the airport which he left in the car.

He violated the most secure airspace in the United States without intercept even though they had the transponder off for 42 minutes and intercept aircraft sat 10 minutes away at Andrews Air Force base. The attacks in New York were being broadcast in the media.

He passed the unsecured White House and flew over the totally unobstructed front of the Pentagon where the "brass" has their offices.

He entered Reagan International airspace while performing a 270 degree turn with a 7000 foot drop in altitude in 2.5 minutes with military precision.

He chose the most obstructed approach path possible out of all 5 sides of the building. And the only path that required an altitude change right at the end in order to level out over the Pentagon grounds.

He hit five 25 foot, 293 pound steel lamp poles, a fence, a 39,500 pound generator trailer, two cable spools, two single-wide mobile home construction trailers and a tree to hit the building without leaving a significant trail of aircraft debris behind.

He selected the only wedge out of 5 that was under renovation for blast reinforcement in case of a terrorist attack. The project was due to be completed that week. The exterior wall was built with 21 inch steel reinforced columns infilled with 8 inches of brick, tubular steel, 1600 pound blast-resistant windows, and Kevlar mesh covered in a facade of 6 inches of Indiana limestone. It was also the least occupied section of the building.

He made an entire 164,010* pound 757-200 more than 50 yards long with wings equal in area to the floor space of a three-bedroom suburban house vanish in between the first and second floor of the Pentagon which is 14 feet between slabs. 12 feet is the diameter of the fuselage. Except for a couple of pieces of the aircraft that had lettering from the AA livery (which is a very small percentage of the exterior surface area of the aircraft) there was very little left behind outside. No tail, no wings, no engines, no horizontal stabilizer, no passenger seats, no luggage and no aircraft cargo. He did not touch the lawn in the process.

The aircraft remained between the first and second floor slabs and traveled 310 feet through the interior walls, 21 inch rebar-cored columns every 10 feet, and office contents to break through the "C" wing wall composed of 8 inches of reinforced brick creating a near perfectly round 9 foot in diameter exit hole. It decelerated in the 40 foot space of the A-E drive and did not chip the opposing wall or leave any visible wreckage in the A-E drive. The Arlington County After-Action Report, the Shoring Report, and the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) Building Performance Report all attributed the exit hole to the aircraft but none of them explained it.

The FBI confiscated videos from local businesses at about the same time water was initially being put on the building fire.

The Pentagon denied having security video. Five frames of a security video taken from the Pentagon guard shack were leaked. The Pentagon admitted to having video. The 5 frames all have the wrong date, the aircraft is hidden behind a foreground object and the second frame had been artificially brightened from the source.

The FBI admits to having videos, aircraft wreckage, two "black boxes" and the hijackers unidentified remains. They refuse to positively identify the hijacker's remains, release the videos or let the media see the wreckage. The NTSB claims to have downloaded the information from the cockpit voice recorder but before it could be analyzed the FBI confiscated it. The FBI director Robert Mueller said "the agency had not gotten any information from the voice data recorder from Flight 77".

The Pentagon ASCE Building Performance Report was written after the building was demolished with no physical inspection of the impact zone evidence or aircraft debris. There is photographic proof that somebody falsified the condition of at least one significant column near the exit hole. The BPS team was not allowed to see the exit hole.

The FBI did not allow the NTSB to perform a crash investigation. There is no official federally required accident report for any of the four aircraft that crashed on 9/11. Those reports are completed when private aircraft skid off a runway.

The FBI produced a report that says "American Airlines #77, Boeing 757, 8:10 a.m. departed Dulles for Los Angeles, 9:39 a.m. crashed into the Pentagon" and shows 5 photos of Arab men on the FBI Flight 77 Page. One of those men has been reported by the BBC to still be alive. Robert Mueller of the FBI acknowledged, "that the identity of several of the suicide hijackers is in doubt".

Dr. Marcella Fierro, the Virginia Chief Medical Examiner was refused any participation in processing the human remains. She was so upset she requested and received a letter from then Attorney General Ashcroft transferring responsibility for the medical examinations to the FBI. The remains were removed under armed guard and taken to Dover AFB, Delaware. Despite temperatures that melted an entire 757-200 they claim to have positively identified all but 5 remains from the Pentagon and Flight 77.

There are no Arab names on the original passenger list or the official autopsy report. On the autopsy report all names on the passenger list were identified except for an infant (if they didn't fly under their own names and there are not 5 alias names unconnected with remains, then how did they board the aircraft?).

The State Department produced the longest government report on the Pentagon here. It uses articles from the Washington Post, USA Today, MSNBC, and Rense.com to prove that an aircraft hit the Pentagon instead of producing the evidence they are in possession of for the American people.

*This includes the aircraft and fuel. It does not include cargo, luggage or passengers.

Straw Man

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #105 on: December 21, 2006, 03:14:29 PM »
isn't it odd that the US government was incapable of intercepting the "plane" that hit the Pentagon in spite of all the time they had yet they were out collecting video tape within 5 minutes after the event

not saying it means anything but just seems a bit incongruent to me

kh300

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #106 on: December 21, 2006, 04:42:19 PM »
what would you have liked the military to do if they did intercept them?

Straw Man

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #107 on: December 21, 2006, 05:29:19 PM »
what would you have liked the military to do if they did intercept them?

they have all kind of scenarios for that. Shooting them down would be one of the options.  Sitting around with their collective thumbs up their ass wouldn't be the best choice.

OzmO

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #108 on: December 21, 2006, 07:25:39 PM »
Because I believe that this guy had to be pretty good at analyzing scenes such as the Pentagon, where buildings, planes, fire trucks, and other objects are used to determine exact dimensions of original events.  Have you seen the original media reports on the Pentagon crash?  "A gaping hole in the lawn and 100 feet -wide hole in the building!"  These idiotic falshoods would have been the official story if not for fast photogs on the scene. 

This general supervised Army imagery interpretation for Scientific & Technical Intelligence during the cold war.  I believe his analysis here is just another of the 10,000 small pieces which show probable cause for a real investigation.  believe it or don't believe it, but it is obviously worth more than kh300 or similar asshat's guessing analysis.  He is a 2-star general who held an important intel position - for you to call him a crackpot because he says no 757 fuselage fit in that round hole which drilled perfectly thru 3 reinforced buildings...

well, perhaps you have a better theory!



You failed your "critical Thinkning course" in college didn't you?

He said he measured soviet equipment from photographs.

Anyone can do that including you and I

He said The hole doesn't match the size of the plane.

We all already agree on this.  Everyone knows this.  That's not news.

He said becuase of that he doesn't think it was a plane that hit the pentagon.

From what stand point of his "expertese" does he base this on?  Becuase he can measure stuff?

Now if he was a physicist and Airplane engineer and he said a plane definatly didn't make that hole then that's one thing.  But he isn't.

His opinion is no more impacting than yours or mine in that field.

However,

putting the photographs of the C-130 building and the video of the F-4 into the brick wall tend to support the idea that a plane might not have done the damage you suggest it should have if in fact it was a plane.

Bullding very well intact with the c-130
Very few debris

Concrete wall in video intact
PLane partically dissentigrated.

All of which support the aftermath fo the pentagon plane.


I'm sorry for this.  But if you really really believe this guy is a credible authority on physics & Airplane construction  you need  help.

OzmO

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #109 on: December 21, 2006, 07:28:30 PM »
It's kinda cheesy to be arguing the "no-plane" theory, when the DoD has not yet proven the "yes-plane" theory :)

NO,  in your opinon which is based on crackpots like your 2-star general as qualified experts, they haven;t proven it.

In a court of law, there is enough evidence and eye witnesses to prove it. 

That's why CT'ers are pretty much laughed at becuase they use things like this idiot senile general and "credible witnesses"

OzmO

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #110 on: December 21, 2006, 07:35:24 PM »
LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Please tell me

1) The diameter of the hole
2) The diameter of a 757 Boeing fuselage.

You been making shit up!!!!!!!!!



Now, even I'm smart enough to know that in a crash like that the concrete if far more stonger then the aluminum shell of the fuselage. 

But then again you believe a guy who used to measure images on photographs as an authority on physics and airplane construction.

Yeah, right.   ::)

OzmO

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #111 on: December 21, 2006, 07:36:16 PM »
As far as this idiot old man goes........ you got nothing.

Unless you have something else to add to help debate your side on this.................


NEXT?

OzmO

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #112 on: December 21, 2006, 07:43:28 PM »
isn't it odd that the US government was incapable of intercepting the "plane" that hit the Pentagon in spite of all the time they had yet they were out collecting video tape within 5 minutes after the event

not saying it means anything but just seems a bit incongruent to me


It's not that odd.  Collecting the tape might have been part of protocol in an event at the pentagon.  And i highly doubt it was 5 min.

Also,  straw if you want the real truth start researching NORAD defense proceedures seperate for the events of 9/11, and what happened on 9/11 from non-government and non-CT websites.   then go back and compare all the info from all sources, CT sites  included.

This is how you conduct a REAL investagation,  not the witch hunt 240 has forsaken his god given objectivity for.

OzmO

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #113 on: December 21, 2006, 07:44:40 PM »
LOL

Anyone who believes that fucking fairy tale is a grade A sucker.


You mean like the guy who believes a man who measured photographs as an authority on physics and plane construction?

 ::) ::) ::) ::)

Straw Man

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #114 on: December 21, 2006, 09:48:00 PM »

It's not that odd.  Collecting the tape might have been part of protocol in an event at the pentagon.  And i highly doubt it was 5 min.

Also,  straw if you want the real truth start researching NORAD defense proceedures seperate for the events of 9/11, and what happened on 9/11 from non-government and non-CT websites.   then go back and compare all the info from all sources, CT sites  included.

This is how you conduct a REAL investagation,  not the witch hunt 240 has forsaken his god given objectivity for.

the timing seem odd to me but then this site is entertainment for me not a religious quest.  I'm not an investigator of anything.   I'm am kind of curious what makes you an expert in investigative techniques.   It sounds like you've already researched the items you've mentioned or at least have some working knowledge so please share.  I'm always open to new information.  Here's a question maybe you can answer.  How many times in 2001 prior to 9-11 were plane intercepted that, for whatever reason entered restricted airspace over DC.   I don't know exactly but I'm sure someone here does.  What went wrong on 9-11? 

OzmO

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #115 on: December 22, 2006, 08:12:58 AM »
we both want a real 911 investigation, ozmo.

your continual attacks and insults show a pretty emotional involvement with it.  if it turns out we let it happen, it's going to hurt as your position unravels.



Look,  240,  i respect you and your beliefs and your intentions. 

I just think you are not using your head when it comes to evaluating evidence.  I think this so much so that the rhetoric you use to support your arguements in this debate seem so off base that my sarcasism tends to come out.


My postion has been farily consistant:

I believe BUSH KNEW   ;Dabout this before it happened.

I don't believe:

WTC's were brought down be explosives
Pentagon was not hit by a plane
Flight 93 demise was something completely outside the official story.


Come back to the point:

How is this General's testimony any more impacting that you or i saying a 16 foot hole is smaller than the plane?

Straw Man

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #116 on: December 22, 2006, 10:06:07 AM »
Look,  240,  i respect you and your beliefs and your intentions. 

I just think you are not using your head when it comes to evaluating evidence.  I think this so much so that the rhetoric you use to support your arguements in this debate seem so off base that my sarcasism tends to come out.


My postion has been farily consistant:

I believe BUSH about this before it happened. - there seems to be a word missing here - Freudian slip perhaps - maybe you still harbor some doubt?  Maybe just a typo

I don't believe:

WTC's were brought down be explosives
Pentagon was not hit by a plane
Flight 93 demise was something completely outside the official story.


Come back to the point:

How is this General's testimony any more impacting that you or i saying a 16 foot hole is smaller than the plane?

Oz- In your opinion - what makes anything the "official" story? 

OzmO

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #117 on: December 22, 2006, 08:10:05 PM »
Look,  240,  i respect you and your beliefs and your intentions. 

I just think you are not using your head when it comes to evaluating evidence.  I think this so much so that the rhetoric you use to support your arguements in this debate seem so off base that my sarcasism tends to come out.


My postion has been farily consistant:

I believe BUSH KNEW   ;Dabout this before it happened.

I don't believe:

WTC's were brought down be explosives
Pentagon was not hit by a plane
Flight 93 demise was something completely outside the official story.


Come back to the point:

How is this General's testimony any more impacting that you or i saying a 16 foot hole is smaller than the plane?

Guess when you got nothing you have nothing to say...........


Are you going to rotate now?

Straw Man

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #118 on: December 23, 2006, 11:48:49 AM »
Guess when you got nothing you have nothing to say...........


Are you going to rotate now?


didn't I also guess TYPO

BTW - is Bush knowing before the event part of the OFFICIAL STORY

Wouldn't Bush knowing beforehand and doing nothing to stop it something that might be  impeachable

Straw Man

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #119 on: December 23, 2006, 12:14:34 PM »
The official story doesn't "go there". 

yes, I am aware of that.   Then again, Bush didn't even want an investigation.  I guess he didn't see any need to investigate the biggest intelligence and defense failure in our country's history.   Does that make sense to anyone on either side of the aisle?

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #120 on: December 27, 2006, 03:22:04 AM »
Gents pretty good debating,very entertaining. ;D ;D  I dont understand why people want to argue so adamantly against you 240, I never got the message that you were claiming to have the end all story on everything that happened that day.  I can respect that you are willing to do so much research and continually have at least answers for these guys over and over.  Ozmo you seem to debate 240 with more intelligence than most, would say not being ignorant is a start. 8)Hint hint bb.   I know who straw is!  Wondered where he went.  I will say 240 you are still making valid points.  Intelligent debates = :)

Straw Man

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #121 on: December 27, 2006, 09:40:07 AM »
Gents pretty good debating,very entertaining. ;D ;D  I dont understand why people want to argue so adamantly against you 240, I never got the message that you were claiming to have the end all story on everything that happened that day.  I can respect that you are willing to do so much research and continually have at least answers for these guys over and over.  Ozmo you seem to debate 240 with more intelligence than most, would say not being ignorant is a start. 8)Hint hint bb.   I know who straw is!  Wondered where he went.  I will say 240 you are still making valid points.  Intelligent debates = :)

I think you're confusing me with someone else.  I'm relatively new to this site.

Straw Man

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #122 on: December 27, 2006, 10:14:02 AM »
thanks L....

Yeah, I don't know any answers, nor do I claim to.  I just think we need a real investigation.

Didn't you post a whole list of conclusions last night and then say that anyone who didn't agree with you was a moron and a douchebag?

Straw Man

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #123 on: December 27, 2006, 10:49:27 AM »
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2056042529846696837&hl=en


Well, I think I know the answers to the bigger questions. 

And I know we did 9/11.  And anyone who can't see it, well, they haven't looked at the evidence.  I spent the last 6 months arguing it with douchebags who still scream that buildings fall like WTC7 all the time.  SO yeah, to me, at this point, they're morons.

But for the sake of discussion, I know we can't convinct any person for it.  We know it was an inside job, but we do not yet know WHO beyond the obvious players.

who's we?  You may believe (as I do) that the official story is almost certainly incomplete but that's about it at this point.   Everything else is speculation.   Some of it could possibly be proven true and some of it could be a dead end.  There is still lot's and lot's of info that needs to come out before we can draw any conclusions (if ever).

BTW - I share many of your beliefs but I'm still aware that they are just beliefs and can be ammended/changed based on additional data
 

Straw Man

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Re: U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon
« Reply #124 on: December 27, 2006, 11:19:56 AM »
true. 

IMO, we = a small group of non-arabs in the US.


just for kicks - how do we know it's not a group that includes arabs, non-arabs, jews, gentiles, athiests, occultists, living both in and outside the US?