Author Topic: "the fall" - purpose of man - judaism/christianity  (Read 2766 times)

MB_722

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"the fall" - purpose of man - judaism/christianity
« on: October 28, 2007, 10:53:15 AM »
The reason why I am bringing this up is because I need someone with a Christian POV on what is the purpose of man in this world not in the world to come.

Man is supposed to work hard and intelligently, resist temptation with self control and correct his ways a.s.a.p that take him off his course. Perfect himself in the best way possible and adapt to his environment, then have the ability to control it.

I came across this quote today:
Quote
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.


I've posted this before and I still agree with it
Question
Hello Rabbi Moss,

I was brought up an atheist Jew, and have a BA in Religious Studies (i.e. comparative religion).

I was recently wondering where Christianity got its concept of original sin, because, as far as I know, it doesn't really exist in Judaism. My understanding has always been that according to Judaism, we are born into this often miserable world (simplisticly the result of the Fall); we are born neither good or bad, but we have the ability to go with our yetzer tov or yetzer hara (which I have understood to mean good or bad inclinations). The sins for which we atone at New Years are those done during the past year, and not anything more integral to who we are. I assume any sacrifice that was made when the Temple existed would have been for that.

Therefore, the sin then becoming in Christianity one that exists at birth and that is integral to one's very being would seem to be a new concept.

Of course, I'm not sure there was a Jewish concept of a soul in the first place, but that's another topic.

Do you have any information on this 'original sin' question, what the Fall indicated, and was the implication of 'sin'?

Thank you.
Dori Jaffe

Answer
Dear Dori,
The Jewish view of the sin of Adam and Eve is very different from the Christian one. In fact, when looked at deeply, it is questionable whether the sin was evil at all.

Judaism is emphatic that a person is born innocent - not evil, not good either, but innocent. We are given a clean slate. But we are not born into an innocent world. The world we are born into is one of challenge, difficulty, pain and evil. But all these are merely means to an end: it is through facing challenges that we grow as human beings, through going through difficulty we bring out deeper resources from within, through pain we become stronger and by combatting evil we create a world of good. So all negativity in the world is just a facade - behind it is ultimate goodness.
That's how reality is now. But it was not like that in the beginning. Adam and Eve were pure beings who entered a perfect world. There was no challenge, pain or death in their world. The "knowledge of good and evil" was a tree that they were told to stay away from in order to maintain this perfect world. "On the day you eat from the tree you will become mortal" said God. Eve picked up on a nuance in this warning. Here is my reconstruction of Eve's thought process:

God is giving us a choice. We can either remain perfect in a perfect world, or we can ingest the knowledge of good and evil and become imperfect (mortal). What should we choose? Well, God created us with a purpose. But what purpose could there be in remaining perfect? God was perfect before we were created, so what are we adding? Our purpose must be to face imperfection and make that perfect too, through our own efforts. That's something only we can do, because only we can be imperfect (God "can't" do that). So she ate of the tree and convinced Adam to eat it too.

Mortality was not a punishment for eating the fruit, but rather the natural consequence
(because only a perfect being is immortal). So too the other "curses" - pain in childbirth and difficulty in making a living are the natural consequences of Eve's choice, because from now on, all achievement has to be earned, which means that nothing can be "born" without hardship.

As descendants of Adam and Eve we have inherited this path - the path of facing challenges, fighting evil and trying to bring the world back to its previous perfection. Every time we overcome a negative urge, or we transform an evil situation to a holy one, we win a battle in this war. We make the world a little bit more comfortable for God's presence to be manifest. When the sum total of all the good in all generations reaches a certain point, God will send the Messiah. He is a human leader who will teach the world how to put the finishing touches on the work of perfecting the world. He will bring material peace between all nations of the world, he will make peace between the spiritual ideals of how the world should be and the practical reality of how the world is, he will bring down the heavens and reveal them on earth. And he won't die, nor will anyone, because evil and death will have been vanquished for ever.

To summarise:
1) The "sin" of Adam and Eve was in fact a conscious choice, a necessary step in the development of humanity's purpose. It was the introduciton of imperfection into creation - something only humans can do.
2) We are not born evil, but we are born in a world of apparent evil and hidden goodness. Our mission is to reveal that goodness.

All the best,
Rabbi Moss


http://en.allexperts.com/q/Orthodox-Judaism-952/Original-Sin.htm


Tre

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Re: "the fall" - purpose of man - judaism/christianity
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2007, 09:04:20 AM »

Good stuff, man.

Hustle Man

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Re: "the fall" - purpose of man - judaism/christianity
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2007, 07:59:29 PM »
Sorry but the Rabbi has it wrong be back later to counter!

For now I would like to point out that our purpose is not to correct this imperfect world! Impact the world yes, correct it, no!

Our purpose is this: "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man" (Eccl. 12:14).

The word, "duty," is inserted. In essence, the writer says that to fear God and keep his commandments is "the whole of man." To "fear God and keep his commandments" is the "complete purpose," the all fulfilling, all encompassing purpose of man on earth.

What the Rabbi said is not truth at all!

Quote
Judaism is emphatic that a person is born innocent - not evil, not good either, but innocent.

Psalm 58:3,The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Be back later!
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OzmO

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Re: "the fall" - purpose of man - judaism/christianity
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2007, 09:14:31 PM »


Our purpose is this: "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man" (Eccl. 12:14).





rule through fear, obedience through fear.

One breath short of a robot's life.

Sorry that's one twisted submissive low self esteem way to exist



loco

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Re: "the fall" - purpose of man - judaism/christianity
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2007, 05:21:18 AM »


Our purpose is this: "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man" (Eccl. 12:14).

rule through fear, obedience through fear.

One breath short of a robot's life.

Sorry that's one twisted submissive low self esteem way to exist

OzmO,
Why do you say this?  Where is the fear in this particular verse?  Do you even know who wrote it and why?  Do you even know how he came to this conclusion?   I would encourage you to look it up.  It is very interesting.

Besides, what does that have to do with this thread?  Hustle Man is making a good point, this is the Old Testament, the Hebrew Holy scriptures saying that humans are inclined to do evil from birth.  I does not necessarily say that we are evil, but that we are inclined to do evil from birth. 

What this Rabi in MB_722's post says contradicts his own Hebrew scriptures.  And this is only one of many verse in the Old Testament that says that we are inclined to sin from birth.

OzmO

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Re: "the fall" - purpose of man - judaism/christianity
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2007, 08:55:48 AM »



OzmO,
Why do you say this?  Where is the fear in this particular verse? 

Let's see.....

Right here:

Quote
Our purpose is this: "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man" (Eccl. 12:14).

Quote
Besides, what does that have to do with this thread?  Hustle Man is making a good point, this is the Old Testament, the Hebrew Holy scriptures saying that humans are inclined to do evil from birth.  I does not necessarily say that we are evil, but that we are inclined to do evil from birth.

What this Rabi in MB_722's post says contradicts his own Hebrew scriptures.  And this is only one of many verse in the Old Testament that says that we are inclined to sin from birth.

No, Man was predisposed to sin before "the fall"  just like a new born baby is.   So in other words the fall, in terms of Adam and eve being perfect, didn't happen.

loco

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Re: "the fall" - purpose of man - judaism/christianity
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2007, 09:16:50 AM »
Let's see.....

Right here:

No, Man was predisposed to sin before "the fall"  just like a new born baby is.   So in other words the fall, in terms of Adam and eve being perfect, didn't happen.

Oh, I thought you were talking about hell or something like that.

Hustle Man

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Re: "the fall" - purpose of man - judaism/christianity
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2007, 07:00:47 PM »
rule through fear, obedience through fear.

One breath short of a robot's life.

Sorry that's one twisted submissive low self esteem way to exist


OzmO,
Why do you say this?  Where is the fear in this particular verse?  Do you even know who wrote it and why?  Do you even know how he came to this conclusion?   I would encourage you to look it up.  It is very interesting.

Besides, what does that have to do with this thread?  Hustle Man is making a good point, this is the Old Testament, the Hebrew Holy scriptures saying that humans are inclined to do evil from birth.  I does not necessarily say that we are evil, but that we are inclined to do evil from birth. 

What this Rabi in MB_722's post says contradicts his own Hebrew scriptures.  And this is only one of many verse in the Old Testament that says that we are inclined to sin from birth.

Loco, I am glad you understood what I was showing there and that you cleared this up. I was rushing and could not explain in detail what I was getting at so thanks bro!

Hebrew word: yare'
Means;

1) to fear, revere, be afraid

2) to stand in awe of, be awed

3) to fear, reverence, honour, respect

4) to be fearful, be dreadful, be feared

5) to cause astonishment and awe, be held in awe

6) to inspire reverence or godly fear or awe

Hope this helps OzmO

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MB_722

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Re: "the fall" - purpose of man - judaism/christianity
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2007, 02:15:35 PM »
think it's natural for any religion to be God fearing, thats a given. But I don't think that this is man's only purpose. Otherwise life would be extremely boring. Essentially a robot to life's basic activities. go to work come home spend some money go back to work spend some money, you get the picture  ;D

I'm indifferent to what our status is as good or evil. What we have is choice, thats all we have pretty much.

Generally speaking, having the discipline to resist the things that hurt you. I don't think has anything to do with evil inclinations. It has more do with not being educated properly in what is the right thing to do for yourself. Poor habits. Giving in to little things means you are weak.

everyone has flaws that they are born with and have to deal with to overcome. Blaming evil, the life they have been given or the thing(s) that made them choose to do what they did, is a test. Either you fail or you pass.

More should be enjoyed in life and appreciated, pleasures of this world shouldn't be looked down upon. Like anything too much of something isn't healthy, comes back to your choices.  Who we are and what we do determines where we go. Not only in this life but in the next wouldn't you agree? People should be looking to advance their lives and lift it to a new level. Life would be useless if you can't accomplish anything in this life.


Hustle Man with what you posted. I'm trying to find something else or maybe it just isn't there? 

With any religion you are supposed to love and fear God and live by his rules, I'm not in disagreement with that, it would be foolish to think that this is the only thing in life to do.
 

Hustle Man

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Re: "the fall" - purpose of man - judaism/christianity
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2007, 03:07:59 PM »
Hustle Man with what you posted. I'm trying to find something else or maybe it just isn't there? 

With any religion you are supposed to love and fear God and live by his rules, I'm not in disagreement with that, it would be foolish to think that this is the only thing in life to do.
 

Essentially, what this means is;

1 Corinthians 10:31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.

Being a Christian means loving and serving God and this is not boring at all! I enjoy my life and I praise God for everything he gives me. I think some people think believers just go to church, pray, read the bible and look down on non believers! We live life like everyone else! We ski, we go to parties, we go to school to better ourselves etc! We also fall into diverse sins like everyone else! I think the Christian life is very exciting especially if you take into account that we are under close scrutiny daily, the balancing act (being in the world but not of the world) is challenging to say the least! It very easy to live like there is no God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit); say and do what you want like no one is watching! It's hard work being a believer because remember we are sinners saved by grace nothing more nothing less! I love God for what he has saved me from, I fear (Awe, Reverence, Honour, respect) God because of who he is!

Much more on this but I don't have time to post!

HM
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