Author Topic: 'Fireproof' burns up box office  (Read 8757 times)

mightymouse72

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2008, 03:53:43 AM »
Correct!  It's only by grace, through faith that I believe.  That's all.  I can't prove it to you.  But my life changing experience, and that of other Christians around me, is real and you can't talk me out of that.


Correct!  No one in this world can talk and cuss at me enough to take what God has done for me and my family away.  And I don't know why anyone tries.

Good topic.  I'm glad to see this movie is doing so well.  Plan on seeing it in the near future. 
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garebear

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2008, 04:07:56 AM »
You are deluded and psychologically ill human being Loco. Get help. There is no god. There is no Jebus. All we have is ourselves and then we die, consigned to oblivion. Christ is a fucking bumper sticker for people's weak psychology and deluded minds.

You don't know that there IS a God, and you don't know that there ISN'T.

Your error is the same, but on the other side.

It is simply unknowable.

The real question is your vehement attitude. Don't get angry with me, but keeping asking WHY?
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Deicide

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2008, 04:12:37 AM »
You don't know that there IS a God, and you don't know that there ISN'T.

Your error is the same, but on the other side.

It is simply unknowable.

The real question is your vehement attitude. Don't get angry with me, but keeping asking WHY?

I also don't know if Zeus exists or not; can you prove that Zeus  doesn't exist? Are you agnostic about the existence of Ra or Thor or Poseidon? That is the kind of agnosticism I have with regards to the biblical god who is as likely to exist as any of these other gods.
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garebear

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2008, 04:19:33 AM »
I also don't know if Zeus exists or not; can you prove that Zeus  doesn't exist? Are you agnostic about the existence of Ra or Thor or Poseidon? That is the kind of agnosticism I have with regards to the biblical god who is as likely to exist as any of these other gods.

Same concept, different name. Completely unknowable.

I used to be a rabid atheist. But if you are honest with yourself, you just have to admit you just cannot know.

I know that it pisses you off how illogical Christians are, but you are really in the same boat.

Don't be afraid to not know.
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MCWAY

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2008, 08:12:50 AM »
You are deluded and psychologically ill human being Loco. Get help. There is no god. There is no Jebus. All we have is ourselves and then we die, consigned to oblivion. Christ is a fucking bumper sticker for people's weak psychology and deluded minds.

Then why are you driving yourself coo-coo, blabbering and wailing about someone you don't believe to exist? Perhaps, you're the one with the "weak psychology". Get help!!!

As for this movie, if my wife wants to see it, then it's a date for me and the Mrs. It's just a matter of getting someone to watch the baby.


Colossus_500

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2008, 02:06:04 PM »
Thank your African ancestors for that as your genetics are all you have...
My ancestors are your ancestors.  Guess I just got the better portion of the gene pool than you did.   :P

Colossus_500

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2008, 02:09:15 PM »
Then why are you driving yourself coo-coo, blabbering and wailing about someone you don't believe to exist? Perhaps, you're the one with the "weak psychology". Get help!!!

As for this movie, if my wife wants to see it, then it's a date for me and the Mrs. It's just a matter of getting someone to watch the baby.


Cha-ching!!!!

Deicide

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2008, 02:12:04 PM »
My ancestors are your ancestors.  Guess I just got the better portion of the gene pool than you did.   :P

Physically yes, mentally I doubt it. Those who determine the course of the world are those with brains, not giant cocks and muscles.

Mollusks share ancestors with us as well...that says little. I clearly have European DNA, and my ancestors are one of the 7 daughters of Eve (a term that nothing to do with the Bible), one of the 7 original bearers of mtDNA that all Europeans have as ancestors; you do not, so it is a bit off to say you and I have the 'same' ancestors.
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MCWAY

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2008, 12:19:32 PM »
I also don't know if Zeus exists or not; can you prove that Zeus  doesn't exist? Are you agnostic about the existence of Ra or Thor or Poseidon? That is the kind of agnosticism I have with regards to the biblical god who is as likely to exist as any of these other gods.

Your statements betray each other. Now, you're saying that you "don't know" that God exists. Earlier you told Loco, "There is no god". That was not a statement of doubt; you were quite confident in your assessment.

So, which is it? Are you unsure that there is no God or not?

Deicide

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2008, 12:55:16 PM »
Your statements betray each other. Now, you're saying that you "don't know" that God exists. Earlier you told Loco, "There is no god". That was not a statement of doubt; you were quite confident in your assessment.

So, which is it? Are you unsure that there is no God or not?

The liklihood that your desert tyrant exists is as great as that of rock trolls, fairies or Artemis, Goddess of the Hunt; I can't prove that these things don't exist, so by default I must be 'agnostic' about them, but in reality I live my life in such a way that they don't exist; I do the same with Jebus.
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MCWAY

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2008, 01:42:34 PM »
The liklihood that your desert tyrant exists is as great as that of rock trolls, fairies or Artemis, Goddess of the Hunt; I can't prove that these things don't exist, so by default I must be 'agnostic' about them, but in reality I live my life in such a way that they don't exist; I do the same with Jebus.

As you should, regarding "Jebus". As for Jesus Christ, in laymen's terms, you are confident that He does not exist, correct?  ;D

The issue here is your statement of doubt versus your statement of certainty.

Deicide

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2008, 01:51:43 PM »
As you should, regarding "Jebus". As for Jesus Christ, in laymen's terms, you are confident that He does not exist, correct?  ;D

The issue here is your statement of doubt versus your statement of certainty.

On a scale from 1-7, where 1 represents absolute theism, certainty in the existence of deities and 7, where 7 represents absolute atheism, certainly that deities do not exist, I am a 6.9.
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Eisenherz

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2008, 11:37:29 PM »
 .1 shows that the bottom line is you dont know and the 6.9 represents your "belief/ faith  ::).", in the end thats all in comes down to.
So therefore you should believe what makes you the happiest and most positive towards life.

Parker

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2008, 05:17:41 AM »
Physically yes, mentally I doubt it. Those who determine the course of the world are those with brains, not giant cocks and muscles.

Mollusks share ancestors with us as well...that says little. I clearly have European DNA, and my ancestors are one of the 7 daughters of Eve (a term that nothing to do with the Bible), one of the 7 original bearers of mtDNA that all Europeans have as ancestors; you do not, so it is a bit off to say you and I have the 'same' ancestors.

What is it with you white dudes and cocks?Specifically the measurement of how you compare to another...  And you mentioned that first instead of after "muscles". I do realize that some ancient Euro cultures including the Greeks worshiped  the Phallus as a symbol of power, but its get rediculous. I firmly believe as one college friend pointed out is the reason why NYC has so many skyscrapers. Each person is saying, "Mine is bigger", "No, mine is bigger", basically a competition of phalluses.



It may be the ones who determine the course of the world have the brains, but it seems like they are envious of those who have the latter... 

loco

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2008, 07:03:05 AM »
So, since you are so elated about Jebus, why don't you tell me, how you 'found' 'him'?

Deicide, I did not find Jesus.  Jesus wasn't lost and I wasn't looking for Him. 

I grew up in a Christian home and my parents always took me to church.  So I knew all about Jesus for as long as I can remember. 

I just did not want to have anything to do with Jesus.  "You must make Jesus the Lord of your life" they told me.  I was the only lord of my life and I wanted it to stay that way.  I wanted to live my life how I wanted to live it, and nobody was going to tell me how to live it.

But gradually, by reading the Bible and obtaining wisdom from it, by watching good Christians like my parents and others around me, by noticing their peace, their forgiveness, their interest in helping others, their conviction and happiness even at times when they had every reason to be depressed and bitter, I finally said a prayer to Jesus one day and asked Him to be the Lord of my life.  And I meant it.  After that, I changed for the better.  Everyone noticed the change.  Those who knew me then and still know me today can testify that I am not the same person that I used to be.  That was about 20 years ago and I have never gone back to being who I used to be.  That's my personal experience. 

Deicide

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2008, 03:32:18 PM »
Deicide, I did not find Jesus.  Jesus wasn't lost and I wasn't looking for Him. 

I grew up in a Christian home and my parents always took me to church.  So I knew all about Jesus for as long as I can remember. 

I just did not want to have anything to do with Jesus.  "You must make Jesus the Lord of your life" they told me.  I was the only lord of my life and I wanted it to stay that way.  I wanted to live my life how I wanted to live it, and nobody was going to tell me how to live it.

But gradually, by reading the Bible and obtaining wisdom from it, by watching good Christians like my parents and others around me, by noticing their peace, their forgiveness, their interest in helping others, their conviction and happiness even at times when they had every reason to be depressed and bitter, I finally said a prayer to Jesus one day and asked Him to be the Lord of my life.  And I meant it.  After that, I changed for the better.  Everyone noticed the change.  Those who knew me then and still know me today can testify that I am not the same person that I used to be.  That was about 20 years ago and I have never gone back to being who I used to be.  That's my personal experience. 

I feel the same way about the Egyptian Book of the Dead and Osiris.
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Eisenherz

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2008, 03:37:35 PM »
Deicide, I did not find Jesus.  Jesus wasn't lost and I wasn't looking for Him. 

I grew up in a Christian home and my parents always took me to church.  So I knew all about Jesus for as long as I can remember. 

I just did not want to have anything to do with Jesus.  "You must make Jesus the Lord of your life" they told me.  I was the only lord of my life and I wanted it to stay that way.  I wanted to live my life how I wanted to live it, and nobody was going to tell me how to live it.

But gradually, by reading the Bible and obtaining wisdom from it, by watching good Christians like my parents and others around me, by noticing their peace, their forgiveness, their interest in helping others, their conviction and happiness even at times when they had every reason to be depressed and bitter, I finally said a prayer to Jesus one day and asked Him to be the Lord of my life.  And I meant it.  After that, I changed for the better.  Everyone noticed the change.  Those who knew me then and still know me today can testify that I am not the same person that I used to be.  That was about 20 years ago and I have never gone back to being who I used to be.  That's my personal experience. 

Its all in your head buddy. But good for you!

Eisenherz

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2008, 03:39:03 PM »
I feel the same way about the Egyptian Book of the Dead and Osiris.

The story of Osiris is the original Jesus story, so you're not realy off track.

Deicide

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2008, 12:49:21 AM »
The story of Osiris is the original Jesus story, so you're not realy off track.

I am well aware of this. Based on my readings and personal studies I don't think there ever existed a human Jesus figure, that is to say, there was no historical Jesus.
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loco

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2008, 05:57:17 AM »
Its all in your head buddy. But good for you!

The story of Osiris is the original Jesus story, so you're not realy off track.

I am well aware of this. Based on my readings and personal studies I don't think there ever existed a human Jesus figure, that is to say, there was no historical Jesus.

My turn!   8)

Scholarly response to the Jesus Myth Hypothesis:
 
"There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church's imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more."
Burridge, R & Gould, G, Jesus Now and Then, Wm. B. Eerdmans, 2004, p.34.
 
The classical historian Michael Grant writes:
"To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.' In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary." 
 
Michael Grant does not see the similarities between Christianity and pagan religions to be significant. Grant states that "Judaism was a milieu to which doctrines of the deaths and rebirths, of mythical gods seemed so entirely foreign that the emergence of such a fabrication from its midst is very hard to credit."
Grant, Michael (1995). Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels. Scribner, 199. ISBN 978-0684818672 .

 
R.T. France points out that Christianity was actively opposed by both the Roman Empire and the Jewish authorities, and would have been utterly discredited if Jesus had been shown as a non-historical figure. He argues that there is evidence in Pliny, Josephus and other sources of the Roman and Jewish approaches at the time, and none of them involved this suggestion.
 
In response to Jesus-myth proponents who argue the lack of early non-Christian sources, or question their authenticity, R. T. France counters that "even the great histories of Tacitus have survived in only two manuscripts, which together contain scarcely half of what he is believed to have written, the rest is lost" and that the life of Jesus, from a Roman point of view, was not a major
event.
 
R.T France disagrees with the notion that the Apostle Paul did not speak of Jesus as a physical being. He argues that arguments from silence are unreliable and that there are several references to historical facts about Jesus's life in Paul's letters, such as that Jesus "who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David" (Romans 1:3, TNIV).
France, RT (1986). Evidence for Jesus (Jesus Library). Trafalgar Square Publishing, 19-20. ISBN 0340381728.   
 
Supporting a historical Jesus
Bovon, François (2006). The Last Days of Jesus, trans. Kristin Hennessy; Louisville: Westminster, John Knox. ISBN 0664230075.
   
Burridge, Richard A. (2006). Four Gospels, One Jesus? A Symbolic Reading, 2nd edn., Grand Rapids:Eerdmans. ISBN 0802829805 .
 
Charlesworth, James H. (ed.) (2006). Jesus and Archaeology. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans. ISBN 080284880X. 
 
Grant, Michael [1977] (1999). Jesus. London: Phoenix. ISBN 0-75380-899-4.   

Komoszewski, J. Ed ; et al (2006). Reinventing Jesus. Kregel Publications. ISBN 082542982X.   

Meier, John P. A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus, 3 vols., New York: Doubleday.   
(1991) The Roots of the Problem and the Person. ISBN 0-385-26425-9 .
 
(1994) Mentor, Message, and Miracles. ISBN 0-385-46992-6 . 

(2001) Companions and Competitors. ISBN 0-385-46993-4 . 

Sanders, E. P. (1993). The Historical Figure of Jesus. London: Allen Lane. ISBN 0-7139-9059-7.   

Theissen, Gerd; and Annette Merz (1998). The Historical Jesus: A Comprehensive Guide , trans. John Bowden, Minneapolis: Fortress Press. ISBN 0-8006-3123-4.   

Wright, NT (1996). The New Testament and the People of God. Augsburg Fortress Publishers. ISBN 0800626818.   

loco

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2008, 05:59:56 AM »
Josephus Jewish Antiquities (c.93 C.E.)
(later interpolations in brackets)


"Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man [if it be lawful to call him a man], for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. [He was the Messiah.] And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him [for he appeared to them alive again at the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him]. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this date.1


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Pliny the Younger Letter to Trajan (c.111-117 C.E.)

"...they maintained that their fault or error amounted to nothing more than this: they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before sunrise and reciting an antiphonal hymn to Christ as God, and binding themselves with an oath not to commit any crime, but to abstain from all acts of theft, robbery and adultery, from breaches of faith, from repudiating a trust when called upon to honour it."2


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Tacitus Roman Annals (c.115-117 C.E.)

"They got their name from Christ, who was executed by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. That checked the pernicious superstition for a short time, but it broke out afresh--not only in Judea, where the plague first arose, but in Rome itself, where all the horrible and shameful things in the world collect and find a home."3


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Sanhedrin 43a (200-500 C.E.)

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu4 was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of Passover!"4


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Endnotes

1. Antiquities xviii. 33 (early second century) from F.F. Bruce, Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), 37.
2. Pliny, Epistles x.96, from Bruce, p.26.
3. Tacitus, Annals xv, 44, from Bruce, p. 22.
Talmudic designation of Jesus.
4. "Sanhedrin," vol 3 of Nezikin, Babylonian Talmud, edited by Isidore Epstein, reprint (London: Soncino, 1938), 281.

loco

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2008, 06:01:05 AM »
Josephus on Jesus - Testimonium Flavianum - Arabic Version
 
"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to themafter his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."
 
Arabic summary, presumably of Antiquities 18.63. From Agapios' Kitab al-'Unwan ("Book of the Title," 10th c.).
The translation belongs to Shlomo Pines. See also James H. Charlesworth, Jesus Within Judaism.

loco

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #47 on: October 07, 2008, 06:01:51 AM »
Concerning Albinus Under Whose Procuratorship James Was Slain; As
Also What Edifices Were Built By Agrippa.


1. And now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus
into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the
high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on
the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the
report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man;
for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high
priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long
time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high
priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you
already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper,
and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, (23)
who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of
the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus
was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper
opportunity [to exercise his authority]. Festus was now dead, and
Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of
judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was
called Christ
, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some
of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against
them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but
as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and
such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they
disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa],
desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for
that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some
of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey
from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for
Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent. (24)
Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in
anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to
punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the
high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and
made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.

Antiquities of the Jews by Flavius Josephus - Book 20, Chapter 9
http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=2359&pageno=648

loco

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #48 on: October 07, 2008, 06:02:44 AM »
Josephus on Jesus - Current state of the debate

Judging from Alice Whealey's 2003 survey of the historiography, it seems that the majority of modern scholars consider that Josephus really did write something here about Jesus, but that the text that has reached us is corrupt to a perhaps quite substantial extent. In the words of the Catholic Encyclopedia entry for Flavius Josephus, "The passage seems to suffer from repeated interpolations." There has been no consensus on which portions are corrupt, or to what degree.
Alice Whealey writes:

Twentieth century controversy over the Testimonium Flavianum can be distinguished from controversy over the text in the early modern period insofar as it seems generally more academic and less sectarian. While the challenge to the authenticity of the Testimonium in the early modern period was orchestrated almost entirely by Protestant scholars and while in the same period Jews outside the church uniformly denounced the text's authenticity, the twentieth century controversies over the text have been marked by the presence of Jewish scholars for the first time as prominent participants on both sides of the question. In general, the attitudes of Protestant, Roman Catholic, Jewish and secular scholars towards the text have drawn closer together, with a greater tendency among scholars of all religious backgrounds to see the text as largely authentic. On the one hand this can be interpreted as the result of an increasing trend towards secularism, which is usually seen as product of modernity. On the other hand it can be interpreted as a sort of post-modern disillusionment with the verities of modern skepticism, and an attempt to recapture the sensibility of the ancient world, when it apparently was still possible for a first-century Jew to have written a text as favorable towards Jesus of Nazareth as the Testimonium Flavianum.

Alice Whealey: Josephus on Jesus: The Testimonium Flavianum Controversy from Late Antiquity to Modern Times (Studies in Biblical Literature, Vol. 36). Peter Lang Publishing (February 2003) ISBN-10: 0820452416

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Re: 'Fireproof' burns up box office
« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2008, 12:44:14 PM »
The story of Osiris is the original Jesus story, so you're not realy off track.

That's funny! I don't remember anything about Jesus getting dismembered, chucked into the underworld and getting his necrophilia-bestiality freak on with his wife, who turned herself into a bird (using a substitute schlong, as Osiris' orginial "Johnson" was still MIA).

 ;D