Author Topic: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways  (Read 15448 times)

MCWAY

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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2009, 06:29:00 PM »
The only reason Atheists spend so much time talking about something that they do not believe in is because OTHER PEOPLE believe, and it affects society and civilization.
Why is the Bus campaign a waste of time? Would a sign that says "Accept Jesus" be an equal waste of time?

Well, if it just said that, perhaps. Of course, part of the Christian faith is to share the Gospel with others. A bus advertisement is a somewhat unorthodox way of attempting to do that. So, that's not a waste of time.

Getting bent out of shape about references to someone you don't believe to exist is not only a waste of time, some would say, it borders on "nutty"  ;D .



Atheism is not a religion. Any admiration of Darwin (or other scientists) is just that:Admiration. It's not "worship" in any sense of the word.

Tell that to the Canadians; their law is the one that deems atheism a religion.


There are plenty of SECULAR charities. There is no point in an "Atheist" Charity because it wouldn't make sense. Secular charities do the work without pushing their dogma.

The charity work is part of their "dogma" (i.e. feed the hungry, clothe the naked, care for the widows and orphans, etc).

As for the "atheist" charities (or lack thereof), you mean to tell me that the enlightened freethinkers, who are SOOOOOOOOOO concerned about mankind and society can't or won't open a food bank or two, because it "wouldn't make sense"?

TO say that the "Founders" of America were all Christian would be ignorant, since MANY were Deists and they were all SECULAR. America is not a "Christian nation" in any sense except the fact that most people living in it identify as Christian. That's all.

Nobody claimed that they were ALL Christians. But a huge chunk of them were, and they made that no secret. And not only were they Christians, they were identified by their particular denomination (only a handful were Deists); and none of them intended for this country to be a godless secular society. We have their own words as testament to that.

So, I don't know where you and Necrosis keep getting this secular stuff. But, you might want to check the facts.


Support of organized religion, or preference of one religion over another IS illegal for the government. That's all from the "Wall of separation" ideal. The "In GOd we trust" and similar B.S. was added MUCH later after the founding of America, mostly in times of reverent revivalism or communist fears.

No, it's not illegal for the government. And when atheists file bone-headed lawsuits, trying to use that argument, their cases usually get chucked out of court.


liberalismo

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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2009, 06:53:15 PM »
Well, if it just said that, perhaps. Of course, part of the Christian faith is to share the Gospel with others. A bus advertisement is a somewhat unorthodox way of attempting to do that. So, that's not a waste of time.

Getting bent out of shape about references to someone you don't believe to exist is not only a waste of time, some would say, it borders on "nutty"  ;D .


No. It's also part of critical thinking and rationality to spread it as well.

What if the govt. decided to put "Xenu" on the money, the national anthem, and push Xenu all over the place. Wouldn't YOU get bent out of shape over something you don't believe in?

Tell that to the Canadians; their law is the one that deems atheism a religion.

So what? Because a Canadian law says it, it must be true?  ::)
Atheism doesn't fit any real definition of religion in any reputable dictionary.


The charity work is part of their "dogma" (i.e. feed the hungry, clothe the naked, care for the widows and orphans, etc).

Only a TINY fraction of professed religious people do any significant amount of charity work. Even if charity is part of a dogma, this doesn't give the dogma repute since in most cases many bad things are part of the same dogma. Also, people can do charity work without any dogma. That's the real goal. Charity work without the side effects of B.S. beliefs about religion or proselytizing.


As for the "atheist" charities (or lack thereof), you mean to tell me that the enlightened freethinkers, who are SOOOOOOOOOO concerned about mankind and society can't or won't open a food bank or two, because it "wouldn't make sense"?

They do. Plenty of atheists belong to more secular charities like the United Way, Toys for Tots, Habitat for humanity, World Wildlife fund, etc. I myself included.


Nobody claimed that they were ALL Christians. But a huge chunk of them were, and they made that no secret. And not only were they Christians, they were identified by their particular denomination (only a handful were Deists); and none of them intended for this country to be a godless secular society. We have their own words as testament to that.

Those handful were the most prominent and influential of the forefathers.




No, it's not illegal for the government. And when atheists file bone-headed lawsuits, trying to use that argument, their cases usually get chucked out of court.


The supreme court has interpreted the 1st amendment which says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" as that any government or state body that spends tax payer dollars, or otherwise uses state property to promote any religion, is against the 1st amendment.




MCWAY

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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2009, 07:22:09 PM »

No. It's also part of critical thinking and rationality to spread it as well.

What if the govt. decided to put "Xenu" on the money, the national anthem, and push Xenu all over the place. Wouldn't YOU get bent out of shape over something you don't believe in?

As I said earlier, if I lived in Saudi Arabia, I wouldn't be blubbering about the currently or holidays, or anything else making references to Allah.

This country wasn't formed by atheists or worshippers of Allah or any other deity. The men who helped shaped this country professed to be Christians.


So what? Because a Canadian law says it, it must be true?  ::)
Atheism doesn't fit any real definition of religion in any reputable dictionary.



Only a TINY fraction of professed religious people do any significant amount of charity work. Even if charity is part of a dogma, this doesn't give the dogma repute since in most cases many bad things are part of the same dogma. Also, people can do charity work without any dogma. That's the real goal. Charity work without the side effects of B.S. beliefs about religion or proselytizing.

Side effects.....and these would be what? Once again, the atheist

They do. Plenty of atheists belong to more secular charities like the United Way, Toys for Tots, Habitat for humanity, World Wildlife fund, etc. I myself included.

I'm sorry!! I missed the part where these charities were OPENED (that is, started) by atheists. The Marines run Toys for Tots, and as military, they serve "God and country".

And I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but according to Wikipedia, the United Way, "has roots in Denver, Colorado, where in 1887 church leaders began the Charity Organization Society which coordinated services and fund raising for 22 agencies"



Those handful were the most prominent and influential of the forefathers.

I beg to differ.....and so does the historical record.




The supreme court has interpreted the 1st amendment which says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" as that any government or state body that spends tax payer dollars, or otherwise uses state property to promote any religion, is against the 1st amendment.

As is too often the case, people like you forget to list the REST of the first amendment, you know the part about the free exercise, which is often where atheists get their knickers in a knot. As mentioned, let someone display a Nativity scene in a public park, during Christmas (a federal holiday, BTW). And, the wailing begins.



liberalismo

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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2009, 09:13:31 PM »
As I said earlier, if I lived in Saudi Arabia, I wouldn't be blubbering about the currently or holidays, or anything else making references to Allah.

This country wasn't formed by atheists or worshippers of Allah or any other deity. The men who helped shaped this country professed to be Christians.




Side effects.....and these would be what? Once again, the atheist

I'm sorry!! I missed the part where these charities were OPENED (that is, started) by atheists. The Marines run Toys for Tots, and as military, they serve "God and country".

And I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but according to Wikipedia, the United Way, "has roots in Denver, Colorado, where in 1887 church leaders began the Charity Organization Society which coordinated services and fund raising for 22 agencies"



I beg to differ.....and so does the historical record.



As is too often the case, people like you forget to list the REST of the first amendment, you know the part about the free exercise, which is often where atheists get their knickers in a knot. As mentioned, let someone display a Nativity scene in a public park, during Christmas (a federal holiday, BTW). And, the wailing begins.





That's because Saudi Arabia is less tolerant. American Atheists are lucky that things aren't as bad as they are in the middle east. Lucky that religious fanatics are held on a leash.

The side effects of religious dogma is the uncritical beliefs that go with it. Believing that evolution is wrong can harm scientific and education progress. Believing that Zygotes have souls can harm women and society. Believing that the bible is the only true way can harm free liberty. Belief in B.S. is always bad.

I never said that the charities listed were made by Atheists. I said they were "secular", meaning no religious affiliation. Atheists can do charity work without involving religious beliefs in it. No sense in that.

The United way had starts with church leaders. Today it is secular.

Jefferson, Paine, Washington, Franklin....All Deists.


"Free exercise" means free exercise for "the people", separate from the government.

MCWAY

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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2009, 08:45:05 AM »

That's because Saudi Arabia is less tolerant. American Atheists are lucky that things aren't as bad as they are in the middle east. Lucky that religious fanatics are held on a leash.

Tolerance has nothing to do with it. The founders of the country were MUSLIMS, not atheists. So, no one should surprised about the Islamic references and holidays within their society. America started with Christian fathers, no matter how much the secular humamists/progressives try to whitewash that fact.


The side effects of religious dogma is the uncritical beliefs that go with it. Believing that evolution is wrong can harm scientific and education progress. Believing that Zygotes have souls can harm women and society. Believing that the bible is the only true way can harm free liberty. Belief in B.S. is always bad.

Come again? The beliefs of Christianity have been anything but "uncritical". The Bible has been the most criticized book, perhaps, in human history. Yet, it's withstood those criticisms and stands today.

The "Zygote" comment is nothing more than a PC way to call a baby anything but a baby, to justify its destruction for convenience's sake. As for women being harmed, as a bumper sticker I recently viewed so eloquently states, "It's easy to be 'pro choice', when you're not the one being KILLED". It's the baby, who gets his arms and legs ripped out, the skull crushed, and the brain sucked out by a vacuum, not the mother. And, considering in at least 95% of the cases, it's the woman's choice to open her legs and have sex in the first place, you'll excuse me if I don't buy the pathetic attempt to show how sparing the baby in the womb harms the woman.

The only harm that comes to education is with regards to the materialistic/humanistic philosophy, present in many scientists. From a practical standpoint, it has no effect whatsoever. People don’t stop finding cures to diseases, making nifty inventions, or discovering things, because they believe in Creation instead of evolution.

It certainly didn’t stop Louis Pasteur from developing vaccines or pasteurizing milk; nor did it stop Raymond Damidian from his contributions to inventing the MRI machine (over which he got screwed out of the Nobel Peace prize, due to his religious beliefs).

And, it certainly didn’t stop Ben Carson from becoming one of the greatest neurosurgeons on this planet (TNT just showed a movie on his life, “Gifted Hands”; so PLLLEAAASSSE tell me how his education was “harmed” by his belief in Creation.

From his article “Evolution? No! I don’t have enough faith”,

” Before Darwin most scientists were Christian. Even Darwin was brought up a Christian, but he became embittered. He set out to prove another explanation to life. I have to give the man credit--he was a powerful observer. On the Galápagos Islands he found thick-billed finches whose bills were capable of breaking apart hard seeds. He also discovered iguanas and tortoises with different adaptations. Therefore, he concluded that these organisms were evolving, and he was right in terms of microevolution--adaptation to the environment. Imagine if you only got fed if you could dunk a basketball . . .
Ultimately, if you accept the evolutionary theory, you dismiss ethics, you don't have to abide by a set of moral codes, you determine your own conscience based on your own desires. You have no reason for things such as selfless love, when a father dives in to save his son from drowning. You can trash the Bible as irrelevant, just silly fables, since you believe that it does not conform to scientific thought. You can be like Lucifer, who said, "I will make myself like the Most High."
Can you prove evolution? No. Can you prove creation? No. Can you use the intellect God has given you to decide whether something is logical or illogical? Yes, absolutely. It all comes down to "faith"--and I don't have enough to believe in evolution. I'm too logical!


http://www.adventistreview.org/2004-1509/story2.html

I never said that the charities listed were made by Atheists. I said they were "secular", meaning no religious affiliation. Atheists can do charity work without involving religious beliefs in it. No sense in that.

The United way had starts with church leaders. Today it is secular.

Of course, you missed the point. Atheists appear to be rather slow on the humanitarian front. Or are we to believe that they gave nothing to the United Way (nor did they start any humanitarian efforts of their own), until it became “secular” enough for them.

And, why, if it's so important to have "secular" charities, did atheists not start any themselves?

Jefferson, Paine, Washington, Franklin....All Deists.

You're missing some folks: Patrick Henry, for one, was a Christian. Two, regarding Washington being a Deist, you might want to check that one again.


"Free exercise" means free exercise for "the people", separate from the government.

The government isn't mandating exercise, one way or the other. But, it has every right to acknowledge its Judeo-Christian roots, in keeping with the will of the people. That's why we have Christmas as a federal holiday, "In God We Trust" on our money and as part of our national anthem (3rd verse), and we swear our leaders into office using Bibles.

liberalismo

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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2009, 01:22:12 PM »
I think you're missing the point here. I'm saying that there are not big campaigns in  Saudi Arabia to remove Muslim holidays because such campaigns would be met with a lot of violence, unlike the U.S.


The bible has been criticized through and through, but Christians who believe in the bible ignore these well though out (and justified) criticism. Their beliefs are not critical. The bible has not "withstood" these criticism, because they are correct. It has only withstood them in the sense that a lot of stubborn people still believe in the Bible.

A Zygote isn't a baby, it's a zygote. You can't call a NON-THINKING, NON FEELING growth in a woman's stomach a "baby" because it's just not the case. It's something that "might" become a baby in the future, but until then it's a zygote. Only a religious person or an ignorant person would prohibit abortion prior to the 3rd trimester, prior to the fetus having thought or feeling. But then again, aren't the two often synonymous?

If every scientist in America stopped believing in Evolution and started believing in Creationism, Science would come to a basic stand still. Biology is based on evolution, and it can't progress without it. As is medicine. Belief in creationism would mean the scientific method is obsolete (since science refutes creationism), and thus shouldn't be followed...which would cause science to freeze and we would return to the dark ages.

The people who made various discoveries with the belief in creationism did so without knowing that science itself would one day refute creationism (as told by Genesis), and couldn't predict that they were paving the way for this. If the scientific facts from the scientific method say that the world is 4 billion years old and all life today came from a common ancestor, belief otherwise means the method is worthless and thus science itself is worthless. You can't have your cake and eat it too.


Anyone who says that evolution means a dismissal of ethics is a moron. Evolution simply says how things are and where we came from, it doesn't determine what is moral and what isn't moral. Selfless love is, in fact, an evolutionary trait. So is Altruism.

Can you prove evolution? Yes. ERVs. Phylogeny. Fossils. Genetics. Etc.

Atheists give to charities, even religious ones. I'm saying that Atheists see no point in making charities based on spreading their beliefs. Charities are for charity and that's it. No point in making an "Atheist charity" anymore than there is a point in making a "General Charity made by people who love jazz music".


Patrick Henry isn't as well known, nor was he as influential as the ones I mentioned.

Washington was a Deist. Despite what dishonest Christians want to claim.


The government isn't mandating exercise of a religion by using tax dollars to feature religious monuments on state property, but it IS  seeming to make preference of one belief over another. Which would be "establishing religion" and thus illegal.


24KT

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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2009, 10:23:21 PM »
I haven't read the whole thread, but why would the city approve something so controversial to appear on public buses?

It's not the "city" that approved the ad, ...but rather the "transit commission", ...and they were correct to do so.

The Ontario Human Rights charter prevents discrimination based on sex, colour, religion, creed etc., etc., etc.

Atheism while not a "religion", is an accepted creed, and as such cannot be discriminated against.

For some however, those signs are as offensive as religious signs sharing their message is to atheists.

Whether we agree with their message is irrelevant, ...they have the right to advertise their "product" as much as Evian advertises their water, or RIM with their Blackberry.

What I find so fascinating is how such a simple message whether one agrees or disagrees with it, ...can get people so darned riled up. I've seen where thousands of people are dying in a day, ...many from preventable & treatable diseases, ...millions slowly starving to death from war, pestilence, famine etc., and people don't even bat an eye, ...but make a statement that goes contrary to prescribed dogma, ...and they flip out. They react like you're driving a knife through their chest. Unbelievable.  ::)
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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2009, 12:54:45 AM »
I don't think it's a big deal either way. 
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loco

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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2009, 05:48:31 AM »
I've seen where thousands of people are dying in a day, ...many from preventable & treatable diseases, ...millions slowly starving to death from war, pestilence, famine etc., and people don't even bat an eye

And what are you doing about this, Jag?  How are you directly helping those people?

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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2009, 10:54:15 AM »
And what are you doing about this, Jag?  How are you directly helping those people?

Among this and other things... www.FundamentalFreedomInitiative.com

I'm helping to clean up the air across the planet that people have to breathe. 
I'm helping to introduce waterless technology into areas so that we can preserve water, one of the earth's most precious resources. Contributing to the building of wells that provide fresh clean drinking water to people around the world that don't have it. Clean Air to breathe and Clean Water to drink, are the fundamental elements of life, and should be basic fundamental freedoms everyone on the planet should enjoy. I've helped in the building of schools around the world. One in Uganda, and another in Samoa. I help people to develop sustainable incomes that are changing their lives and those of their families, ...and their heirs, ...among other things...  What do you do?

When planning for a year, plant rice.
When planning for a decade, plant trees.
When planning for lifetime, train and educate people."
-- Chinese Proverb

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loco

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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2009, 11:31:40 AM »
Among this and other things... www.FundamentalFreedomInitiative.com

I'm helping to clean up the air across the planet that people have to breathe. 
I'm helping to introduce waterless technology into areas so that we can preserve water, one of the earth's most precious resources. Contributing to the building of wells that provide fresh clean drinking water to people around the world that don't have it. Clean Air to breathe and Clean Water to drink, are the fundamental elements of life, and should be basic fundamental freedoms everyone on the planet should enjoy. I've helped in the building of schools around the world. One in Uganda, and another in Samoa. I help people to develop sustainable incomes that are changing their lives and those of their families, ...and their heirs, ...among other things...  What do you do?

When planning for a year, plant rice.
When planning for a decade, plant trees.
When planning for lifetime, train and educate people."
-- Chinese Proverb



Good for you!  But it looks like those thousands of people you mentioned need immediate help or they'll die real soon.  None of those things you mentioned you are doing for them really help them now.  They'll all be dead by then.

Yet many of the people you criticize by saying..."but make a statement that goes contrary to prescribed dogma, ...and they flip out."...are the same people who are also putting a whole lot of their time, energy, money and love into directly helping those less fortunate around the world, right now.  You should join them and help them continue to provide immediate, much needed help to others.

24KT

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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2009, 12:11:53 PM »
Good for you!  But it looks like those thousands of people you mentioned need immediate help or they'll die real soon.  None of those things you mentioned you are doing for them really help them now.  They'll all be dead by then.

I think you misunderstand. The wells are dug, ...and more are being dug everyday. As is awareness and Action.
Ask those kids who no longer have to walk 8 hrs a day for filthy disease ridden water if the well in their village isn't helping them NOW. Ask those kids who can now go to school instead of walking 8 hrs a day far from home vulnerable to animal and human predators if that well or that school is not helping them NOW. Ask someone who made enough more to feed their family that day, ...or someone right here in North America who was down to their last $6.50 if the additional $200 they were able to put in their pocket in 30 mins didn't help them to buy a few groceries right then and there. Or the trucker who would normally spend $4,000 in fuel for his dedicated run, who now only has to spend $3,400 on fuel to do the same trip. Tell me that $600 in his pocket isn't going to help him. Tell me that taking a truck that blows 19 on an emission test, down to 5 isn't going to help him stay in business. Any trucker who fails emission testing is out of business. Tell me helping someone to remain gainfully employed... in this economy, when they would otherwise be out of work, isn't helping them NOW.  Come on' ...I dare you. In fact, ...I double dog dare you.  ;)

If you give a man a fish, ...you feed him for a day. If you teach a man how to fish, ...you feed him for a lifetime!

Quote
Yet many of the people you criticize by saying..."but make a statement that goes contrary to prescribed dogma, ...and they flip out."...are the same people who are also putting a whole lot of their time, energy, money and love into directly helping those less fortunate around the world, right now. 

No, I believe I was very clear on the issue. I believe I stated my astonishment at those who do not bat an eye to the suffering in this world, but get apoplectic if someone makes a statement that goes against dogma. 

Quote
You should join them and help them continue to provide immediate, much needed help to others.

This statement implies to me that you don't believe I am helping. if you choose to believe that, you are welcome to.
I don't do it for recognition. I do it for results. I know I'm making a difference, and the impact continues to be felt.
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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2009, 12:18:57 PM »

Tell that to the Canadians; their law is the one that deems atheism a religion.


Canadian law does not discriminate against a group of people whose "creed" does not conform to the trappings of traditional organized religion. It does not recognize atheism as a religion, but it recognizes it for what it is... a creed. A creed is nothing more than a belief, and the law you cannot discriminate because of someone's beliefs.
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loco

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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2009, 01:01:43 PM »
I think you misunderstand. The wells are dug, ...and more are being dug everyday. As is awareness and Action.
Ask those kids who no longer have to walk 8 hrs a day for filthy disease ridden water if the well in their village isn't helping them NOW. Ask those kids who can now go to school instead of walking 8 hrs a day far from home vulnerable to animal and human predators if that well or that school is not helping them NOW. Ask someone who made enough more to feed their family that day, ...or someone right here in North America who was down to their last $6.50 if the additional $200 they were able to put in their pocket in 30 mins didn't help them to buy a few groceries right then and there. Or the trucker who would normally spend $4,000 in fuel for his dedicated run, who now only has to spend $3,400 on fuel to do the same trip. Tell me that $600 in his pocket isn't going to help him. Tell me that taking a truck that blows 19 on an emission test, down to 5 isn't going to help him stay in business. Any trucker who fails emission testing is out of business. Tell me helping someone to remain gainfully employed... in this economy, when they would otherwise be out of work, isn't helping them NOW.  Come on' ...I dare you. In fact, ...I double dog dare you.  ;)

If you give a man a fish, ...you feed him for a day. If you teach a man how to fish, ...you feed him for a lifetime!

No, I believe I was very clear on the issue. I believe I stated my astonishment at those who do not bat an eye to the suffering in this world, but get apoplectic if someone makes a statement that goes against dogma. 

This statement implies to me that you don't believe I am helping. if you choose to believe that, you are welcome to.
I don't do it for recognition. I do it for results. I know I'm making a difference, and the impact continues to be felt.

Forgive me!  Maybe I did misunderstand you.  You're very vague. 

someone right here in North America who was down to their last $6.50 if the additional $200 they were able to put in their pocket in 30 mins didn't help them to buy a few groceries right then and there. Or the trucker who would normally spend $4,000 in fuel for his dedicated run, who now only has to spend $3,400 on fuel to do the same trip. Tell me that $600 in his pocket isn't going to help him. Tell me that taking a truck that blows 19 on an emission test, down to 5 isn't going to help him stay in business. Any trucker who fails emission testing is out of business. Tell me helping someone to remain gainfully employed... in this economy, when they would otherwise be out of work, isn't helping them NOW

How exactly are you accomplishing this, or helping them accomplish this?

liberalismo

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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2009, 01:11:12 PM »
It would be FOOLISH for society to try to ban PAID advertisements because they disagree with their religious message. This is censorship and ignorance at its peak. If I pay money for an advertisement, what the fuck gives you the right to try to get it removed because you disagree with what it says? This isn't obscenity in any sense of the work, you just disagree with the particular message. I find the "Jesus saves" and other religious B.S. advertisements on highway billboards highly offensive, but I don't try to BAN them.

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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2009, 02:27:41 PM »
Forgive me!  Maybe I did misunderstand you.  You're very vague. 

How exactly are you accomplishing this, or helping them accomplish this?



Here's what the President had to say ...




While the President was somewhat vague, we do it by educating people about solutions to issues they were previously unaware of. By teaching people how to build a business, providing these same solutions to the public, by gathering a handful of customers and business partners. And teaching them how to teach others how to do the same. We simply duplicate that process over and over again. I guess you could say we took a page from the world's greatest network marketer who told the 12 members of his team to "Be fishers of men." They then went on to share the good news about what they had, and how it was available to all. Look at the size of the organization he built.  :P

Paul Zane Pilzer, a world-renowned economist, the world's most accurate economic forecaster, was an appointed economic advisor in two presidential administrations and warned of the impending $200-billion savings and loan crisis years before official Washington was willing to listen—a story that he later told in 'Other People’s Money' (Simon & Schuster, 1989) which was critically acclaimed by the 'New York Times' and 'The Economist' magazine, coined a phrase for it. He called it "Intellectual Distribution." You can read an interview with Paul Zane Pilzer through here.


And if you want to know what my friend Len (a well respected court recognized industry expert) has to say...
feel free to read his well researched article on the matter. He calls it "The Coming Boom"

We all knew it was coming, ...weren't sure when, ...but current GLOBAL economic conditions appear quite ripe.
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loco

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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2009, 06:07:10 AM »

Here's what the President had to say ...




While the President was somewhat vague, we do it by educating people about solutions to issues they were previously unaware of. By teaching people how to build a business, providing these same solutions to the public, by gathering a handful of customers and business partners. And teaching them how to teach others how to do the same. We simply duplicate that process over and over again. I guess you could say we took a page from the world's greatest network marketer who told the 12 members of his team to "Be fishers of men." They then went on to share the good news about what they had, and how it was available to all. Look at the size of the organization he built.  :P

Paul Zane Pilzer, a world-renowned economist, the world's most accurate economic forecaster, was an appointed economic advisor in two presidential administrations and warned of the impending $200-billion savings and loan crisis years before official Washington was willing to listen—a story that he later told in 'Other People’s Money' (Simon & Schuster, 1989) which was critically acclaimed by the 'New York Times' and 'The Economist' magazine, coined a phrase for it. He called it "Intellectual Distribution." You can read an interview with Paul Zane Pilzer through here.


And if you want to know what my friend Len (a well respected court recognized industry expert) has to say...
feel free to read his well researched article on the matter. He calls it "The Coming Boom"

We all knew it was coming, ...weren't sure when, ...but current GLOBAL economic conditions appear quite ripe.

What is this?  You have managed to turn this into an Amway sales pitch?  I thought we were talking about helping needy people around the world.  Is this how you are helping?  No, you are not helping them.  You are kicking them when they're down. 

You are taking advantage of their desperate situation and exploiting them when they are most vulnerable, luring them into your pyramid scheme...all the while bad mouthing those who are truly helping them.

And who cares what Bill Clinton has to say?  In that same video he says "In America, if you play by the rules..."  If you play by the rules?  Yeah, we all know he played by the rules to get to where he is.

MCWAY

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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2009, 09:53:40 AM »
It would be FOOLISH for society to try to ban PAID advertisements because they disagree with their religious message. This is censorship and ignorance at its peak. If I pay money for an advertisement, what the fuck gives you the right to try to get it removed because you disagree with what it says? This isn't obscenity in any sense of the work, you just disagree with the particular message. I find the "Jesus saves" and other religious B.S. advertisements on highway billboards highly offensive, but I don't try to BAN them.

Who said anything about banning it?

My comment was merely aoubt how DUMB it was to obsess about something/someone you don’t believe to exist, to the point you have to pay lots of $$$$$ to express your disbelief in the allegedly non-existent entity on the side of a bus.

In other words.....Legal? YES!!! Dumb? Absolutely!!!!




liberalismo

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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2009, 09:59:26 AM »
Who said anything about banning it?

My comment was merely aoubt how DUMB it was to obsess about something/someone you don’t believe to exist, to the point you have to pay lots of $$$$$ to express your disbelief in the allegedly non-existent entity on the side of a bus.

In other words.....Legal? YES!!! Dumb? Absolutely!!!!






Someone had asked why the city would "approve" it.


I don't think it's stupid to obsess over something you don't believe in. Especially when that thing that you don't believe in affects countless people around you, and indirectly affects you. In our world, even things that don't exist can hurt us if people believe in them and to stupid things because of those beliefs.

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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2009, 02:33:11 PM »
What is this?  You have managed to turn this into an Amway sales pitch?  I thought we were talking about helping needy people around the world.  Is this how you are helping?  No, you are not helping them.  You are kicking them when they're down. 

You are taking advantage of their desperate situation and exploiting them when they are most vulnerable, luring them into your pyramid scheme...all the while bad mouthing those who are truly helping them.

As for your opinion of what we are doing... I beg to differ. In fact, I cannot disagree with you strongly enough.

First off: We are NOT exploiting anyone, or taking advantage of desperate situations.
It is the international bankers, corrupt politicians, cartels, and war mongers across the planet that exploited them.
We are addressing their desperate situations in a sustainable fashion. That's lasting change.

Secondly: I was not bad-mouthing anyone. Again, I was very clear. My astonishment was reserved for those who do not bat an eye at suffering in the world, but who get all riled up because someone has taken out a billboard advertisement that states an opinion they do not agree with. I was not bad-mouthing Christians or faith based relief organizations.

Thirdly: We do NOT operate a pyramid scheme, ...we are a legitimate network marketing company.
Pyramid schemes often try to disguise themselves as network marketing companies, that doesn't make them so.



Is this a pit bull or a bunny rabbit? See my point?  :D   ...and I am not involved with Amway.

Fourthly: I have not made a sales pitch. You asked me what I do to help these people. I told you what I do to help people in desperate situations, and I told you I dig wells and build schools with my colleagues. end of story. You then came back asking for further clarification, asking me how I do what I do, ...and I told you that network marketing is the vehicle that allows me to do this. Had I informed you about the very products & services I provide to the public, the various prices of the items sold that generate the income, that finances this, then perhaps you could stretch somewhat to try to fashion an argument that I was making a sales pitch, ...but I have got to insist that you not keep requesting further clarification, then objecting when I give it to you.

Fifthly: We are truly helping people, however, we are doing it in a sustainable fashion  NO STRINGS ATTACHED.

It takes money to build a school. Many faith based organizations do the same. I will make a comparison between us and them because I believe that is who you think I was referring to (despite my previously stating that not to be the case). As we can both agree, faith based organizations help others in various parts of the world to meet basic needs, etc. They acquire their funding through handouts. Begging money from governments, citizens etc. Then they come back next season requesting more.

Some people will give $50 to a group, but do so not out of some desire to help, but because their religion tells them they have to give this money to their church, so they do it out of dogmatic obligation and/or a tax write off. Many other people have a sincere desire to help, but do not have the financial resources to do so directly, or the ability to roll up their sleeves and help, so they give $5, $25, $100 etc., to a faithbased org or registered charity, and hope it's not run by an individual with the character of Jimmy Swaggert, Jim or Tammy Faye Baker.

Network marketers however, are a different breed of humanitarian.
We fund our charitable & humanitarian activities through our businesses.


We have the financial means, and the lifestyle that enables us to hop on a plane and fly to some part of the world, ...roll up our sleeves and put shovel to dirt. A network mktr making a 6 figure monthly income has a lot of resources at their disposal to get the job done, ...not to mention the ability to fly to some remote part of the world for 3 or 4 months at a time overseeing a project, ...all the while the income continues coming in.

Most people cannot do that. There are those who would love to go to Peru and work with farmers down there, but they have to work their 9-5 Just Over Broke day in day out to put food on their own table, and a roof over their family's head. So they again turn to some organization hoping it's not run by a Jim Baker.

A huge distinction between what we as network marketers do and the faith based groups do, is that network mktrs do it without any strings attached. The faith based groups (missionaries) will go over, and provide the assistance, but along with it comes an agenda; ...one that discounts, and obliterates native customs, cultures, and religions, and replaces it with their particular doctrine. Their help comes with a price tag... religious conversion and endless proselytizing ad nausem. I don't think we need to get into the effects on a society when their culture is destroyed. Especially while corporate avarice moves in and takes all their resources leaving nothing in return except destroyed local economies, and polluted environments. It creates unsustainable bubbles that eventually burst to the detriment of all concerned. We've seen ample evidence of that across the globe over the years, ...and in recent months.

The network mktr however, is simply supporting a cause we believe in. These people over there need a school. Let's build one. This village over there needs clean drinking water. Let's put in a well that will do just that. This organization needs a source of perpetual funding, one that is not vulnerable to whimsical changes in government administrations, or influential lobbyists with exceptional access to administrative decision makers. Our solution, ...let's build a business whose profits can sustain the funding needs of the organization through passive residual income. This allows the organization to devote their time to the task at hand, rather than constant fundraising. We are entrepreneurs with a talent for feeding two birds with the same worm. We are intimately acquainted with universal principles and the interconnectedness of all things, and we leverage these principles.

Let's say you have a valueable product with the ability to simultaneously clean up the air, while reducing the customer's expenditures, allowing the customer of the product to keep more money in his/her pocket, or in the case of some (if your customer is a business owner), to even remain in business. The more customers you have using it, the cleaner the air would be, the more money your customers would have, and the more businesses that would stay afloat right? The more sales generated, the cleaner the air becomes, the more money your customers keep in their pockets, ...and the more money you make, and the more money you have available to do good works.

Let me give you a hypothetical using small numers:
Person #1 in NewYork who was just laid off from their job, can sell a product to Customer A, and earn a direct retail sales commission that they can put into their pocket immediately. Customer A is happy because this product represents real value to them. By using this product, they can meet compliance guidelines that allow them to stay in business. They also save themselves $X, allowing them to expand their businesses and hire additional employees. Something sorely needed especially in this economy. Customer A continues to buy the product. Sets up a standing monthly order for this product so it can be automatically shipped to them at intervals of their choosing. They never have to run out of it, or schlep across town to get it from Person 1. Person 1's customer is supplied, and Person 1 didn't have to tie up massive amounts of capital to do it, nor did they have to schlep across town to deliver the product. You have just created an ongoing income from a one-time effort. Of course, Person 1 is now going to sell that same product to Customer B, and Customers C,D,E,F,G etc. All 7 customers set up standing monthly orders for these products. Every month, Person A has income coming in from 7 customers. So what is he going to do, he's going to gather another 7 customers and so on and so on. Let's say that Person 1 eventually develops 100 customers. Every month, Person 1 makes commissions from 100 sales whether s/he gets out of bed or not.

That's 100 customers staying in business and hiring employees... and cleaning up the air in the process.

What if Person 1 received a matching bonus check for everybody that s/he taught to do the same thing?

If Person 1 taught Person 2 how to do the same thing. and then taught Persons 3, Person 4,5,6,7 etc

As Person 1, your business would have 700 sales every month whether you got out of bed or not. Passive Income.

Now Persons 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, duplicated the same thing, and each found 7 more people who each develop 100 customers. You could be earning a residual income on monthly sales generation of 34,300 businesses
...whether you got out of bed or not, in addition to a check matching bonus on 343 other people doing what you are.

What kind of an impact do you think 34,300 businesses NOT closing their doors has on a local economy?
...especially if businesses are a type whose demise could stop a NATIONAL economy in it's tracks?

How many additional employees can 34,300 businesses hire if they are able to improve their profit margins, while reduce operating expenses. Many companies reduce expenses by laying workers off, ...what if you could help a business to reduce expenses and improve their profit margins, while hiring additional workers? How many local families does that feed, house, and clothe?

Duplicate this process over time, ...and it can generate some very impressive numbers.

It's a win/ win/ win/ situation all around. I see nothing wrong with, and everything right, about being able to sustainably finance the desperate needs of people around the planet, by simultaneously providing value to consumers, an income source for the unemployed, and cleaner air for people to breathe, and stimulating local economies on a global scale.
 
Do you think that when we go over and build schools, we're trying to recruit distributors?
Because if that's your impression, you are completely mistaken.

Most successful network mktrs belong to companies who do not even do business in those countries.
My friend has been building schools and digging wells in Uganda for yrs. She's also been in network mkting for over 30 yrs, and to my knowledge, not until 3 years ago did she even participate with a networking company that even did business in Uganda. Most only did business in the US, Canada, Japan, UK, and Australia.

There are some network marketers who are attracted to the industry because the income it produces can create a life of absolute hedonistic luxury for them. A $300,000 per month, or a $500,000/month,  or in the case of the very elite mlm'er, a 7 figure a month income, can produce an incredible lifesyle and a legacy that can set your family up for life. Not only their immediate family, but their kids, grandchildren, and heirs for generations to come.

The vast majority of elite income earners that I've met however, live well below their means, in quite modest accomodations, rarely revealing their assets except to those within the same asset bracket who would not be intimidated by it. Many continue to live as they did when their family was getting by on their corporate salaries of less than $100K a year, ...but the income is invested in many endeavors... whether it be in real estate, stock markets, or travelling the world putting boots on the ground, doing hands on good works. And yes, some hide it under their mattresses.

Not everyone can be Oprah Winfrey and have their own media empire that enables them to build an elite academy, however, network marketing affords everyone the opportunity to be able to do the same good works as Oprah, and develop the financial means to do it, despite their lack of a talk show, or monthly magazine.

Network marketers have options and choices the non network marketer does not.
The non network marketer gives their money to a faith based group, and that group decides how it will be spent.
There may not even be an existing organization that focusses on the areas or causes the person wants to support, so they examine a list of existing institutions and picks one that comes the closest... again hoping it's not run by a Jim Baker.

The network marketer has the ability to fund his/her desired cause directly, and make a difference on the planet, ..if s/he chooses to make that kind of a difference on the planet. Or, ...s/he can simply keep the residual income they've earned, and live a good life. The choice is entirely their own.
    
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And who cares what Bill Clinton has to say?  In that same video he says "In America, if you play by the rules..."  If you play by the rules?  Yeah, we all know he played by the rules to get to where he is.

That's why we do what we do. We know that society doesn't work the way it's supposed to. We know that many are feeling the harsh betrayal of the corporate world after "playing by the rules". It has led to many lives shattered, loyal employees who've devoted their lives to companies at the expense of their marriages, families, being shafted out of retirement incomes, pension plans, etc., In network marketing, however, ...if you play by the rules, you will be able to achieve your goals and your dreams... whatever they are. There is no glass ceiling. You produce... you get results. Network marketing is simply the vehicle we use as leverage to achieve them. It is Brilliant Compensation at it's finest.

That's what I do, ...and that's how I do it. I never did get your answer about what you do?
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loco

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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2009, 04:27:46 PM »
I don't have time to read all of that, but I might come back and read it...one of these days.

brent2741

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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2009, 08:01:49 PM »
that is awesome

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tonymctones

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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2009, 09:13:32 AM »
LOL HAHAHAHAHHAHA WOW  :o I think its hillarious that atheist continuosly come on this board and complain about how religious ppl try to ram religion down there throat. Then turn around and defend or agree with atheist trying to push their agenda publicly...Ive asked this question to many ppl necrosis has avoided it multiple times, Whats the difference between religious ppl pushing their agenda and atheist pushing theirs? both do it yet you guys seem to only bitch and moan about religious ppl doing it, whats the difference?

24KT

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Re: 'No God' Ads, Soon To Appear On Public Transit Buses and in Subways
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2009, 10:06:40 PM »
LOL HAHAHAHAHHAHA WOW  :o I think its hillarious that atheist continuosly come on this board and complain about how religious ppl try to ram religion down there throat. Then turn around and defend or agree with atheist trying to push their agenda publicly...Ive asked this question to many ppl necrosis has avoided it multiple times, Whats the difference between religious ppl pushing their agenda and atheist pushing theirs? both do it yet you guys seem to only bitch and moan about religious ppl doing it, whats the difference?

Are you categorizing me as part of the atheist crowd? Because if you are, ...you are gravely mistaken.
I believe you asked me once before if I was an atheist, ...and I told you I was not.
Is your your ADD kicking in again, ...or has all that high fructose corn syrup in the US impaired your memory?  :P
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