Author Topic: Prayer and Religion in Public Life  (Read 531237 times)

Agnostic007

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 12773
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #725 on: December 08, 2020, 11:06:41 PM »
Since most NFL players are christian how does Jesus pick who he will have win the game?  Hebrew coin flip?

The truth is MOST Christians at least in the US have very little knowledge of the bible and it's teachings beyond what some person standing behind a lectern tells them. That is why you see FB memes or postings with "Type Amen and you'll receive a blessing" and it gets 30K responses. 

Humble Narcissist

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14301
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #726 on: December 09, 2020, 04:16:19 AM »
The truth is MOST Christians at least in the US have very little knowledge of the bible and it's teachings beyond what some person standing behind a lectern tells them. That is why you see FB memes or postings with "Type Amen and you'll receive a blessing" and it gets 30K responses.
I've never understood that.  If I am banking my whole eternity on something I want to know it inside and out.  But then again there are people who hire personal trainers to instruct them on stuff they can easily learn on their own.  We are way too specialized today and like Robert Heinlein said "specialization is for insects."

Agnostic007

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 12773
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #727 on: December 09, 2020, 08:35:47 PM »
I've never understood that.  If I am banking my whole eternity on something I want to know it inside and out.  But then again there are people who hire personal trainers to instruct them on stuff they can easily learn on their own.  We are way too specialized today and like Robert Heinlein said "specialization is for insects."

You raise an excellent point I have tried to make myself over the years.

Ask people what books they have read in their life. Some avid readers have read every Tom Clancy, every Danielle Steele, Harold Robbins, Enid Blyton, Dean Koontz, Stephen King or Sidney Sheldon book ever written. Some, more than once.
   
Ask the ones that are Christian if they have bothered to read the bible one time cover to cover and you get silence.

Another way to look at it is if tomorrow an alien spaceship landed on the white house lawn and dropped off a manuscript of 800 pages I guarantee you within a month it would have been read and studied cover to cover..

Which brings me to my personal belief that most Christians really don't believe the bible is the word of god. It's comfort, its an insurance policy just in case, but they don't believe it's real enough to read it for themselves one time. That says a lot

Humble Narcissist

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14301
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #728 on: December 10, 2020, 10:57:31 AM »
You raise an excellent point I have tried to make myself over the years.

Ask people what books they have read in their life. Some avid readers have read every Tom Clancy, every Danielle Steele, Harold Robbins, Enid Blyton, Dean Koontz, Stephen King or Sidney Sheldon book ever written. Some, more than once.
   
Ask the ones that are Christian if they have bothered to read the bible one time cover to cover and you get silence.

Another way to look at it is if tomorrow an alien spaceship landed on the white house lawn and dropped off a manuscript of 800 pages I guarantee you within a month it would have been read and studied cover to cover..

Which brings me to my personal belief that most Christians really don't believe the bible is the word of god. It's comfort, its an insurance policy just in case, but they don't believe it's real enough to read it for themselves one time. That says a lot
When people tell me that they follow the Bible word for word it's always an interesting conversation.  I ask them if they practice polygamy, purchased their wife from their father in law, married a virgin and believe in stoning people to death if they cheat.  I also ask if they believe it is moral and just to take over a town and kill, rape and enslave the inhabitants all because they are a different religion.  Jacob and Joshua alone covered all of this in the Old Testament.

Agnostic007

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 12773
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #729 on: December 10, 2020, 09:09:28 PM »
When people tell me that they follow the Bible word for word it's always an interesting conversation.  I ask them if they practice polygamy, purchased their wife from their father in law, married a virgin and believe in stoning people to death if they cheat.  I also ask if they believe it is moral and just to take over a town and kill, rape and enslave the inhabitants all because they are a different religion.  Jacob and Joshua alone covered all of this in the Old Testament.

I've pointed out things in the bible that my Christian friends obviously weren't aware of. Instead of saying "Wow, I didn't know that, maybe I oughta read the bible for myself" Their response is usually "You don't even believe in the bible why are you trying to quote it?" Like that makes what I said go away...
'

ThisisOverload

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2098
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #730 on: December 11, 2020, 11:33:23 AM »
People get to pick and choose what they follow in the Bible, that's the funniest thing to me.  There are a ton of things in the Bible that people ignore because it doesn't work for their lifestyle.

Very few people i know have actually read and studied the entire Bible like i did as a teenager. There is a lot of crazy random shit in there that no body talks about.  Things that are pretty ridiculous and contradict everything else we are taught.

Then you go to church on Sundays and it's the same teachings over and over and over. Most churches only cover about 10% of the Bible; the things that make people feel better about death and feel at peace.  They sing the same songs, study the same verses and tell the same stories. They have cherry picked the best parts to sell the story.

Humble Narcissist

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14301
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #731 on: December 11, 2020, 11:45:14 AM »
They like to pick parts from the Old Testament along with the New.  There were over 600 commandments the Israelites were given that no body follows like, how many steps you can walk on the sabbath, not eating shellfish, not having sex with your wife when she's on the rag, etc.  These sins were punishable by death!  When someone talks about following all the commandments I bring this up.  The New Testament was a new law that completely goes against the Old but most Christians like to mix the two.

Agnostic007

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 12773
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #732 on: December 11, 2020, 02:57:00 PM »
People get to pick and choose what they follow in the Bible, that's the funniest thing to me.  There are a ton of things in the Bible that people ignore because it doesn't work for their lifestyle.

Very few people i know have actually read and studied the entire Bible like i did as a teenager. There is a lot of crazy random shit in there that no body talks about.  Things that are pretty ridiculous and contradict everything else we are taught.

Then you go to church on Sundays and it's the same teachings over and over and over. Most churches only cover about 10% of the Bible; the things that make people feel better about death and feel at peace.  They sing the same songs, study the same verses and tell the same stories. They have cherry picked the best parts to sell the story.

exactly. There are people who have attended church for 50 years that have probably only heard 20% of it

AbrahamG

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 11816
  • TeamFauci2024
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #733 on: December 11, 2020, 09:32:45 PM »
They like to pick parts from the Old Testament along with the New.  There were over 600 commandments the Israelites were given that no body follows like, how many steps you can walk on the sabbath, not eating shellfish, not having sex with your wife when she's on the rag, etc.  These sins were punishable by death!  When someone talks about following all the commandments I bring this up.  The New Testament was a new law that completely goes against the Old but most Christians like to mix the two.

jerking off altar boys, finger banging nuns, etc. etc.

Humble Narcissist

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14301
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #734 on: December 12, 2020, 04:51:03 AM »
jerking off altar boys, finger banging nuns, etc. etc.
That was not in either Testaments.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 57829
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #735 on: January 04, 2021, 11:12:28 PM »
Since most NFL players are christian how does Jesus pick who he will have win the game?  Hebrew coin flip?

I've always maintained that NFL players should drop to a knee and pray when they fumble, drop a pass, thrown an INT, etc. and not whey they score TDs.   :)

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 57829
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #736 on: January 04, 2021, 11:13:03 PM »
The truth is MOST Christians at least in the US have very little knowledge of the bible and it's teachings beyond what some person standing behind a lectern tells them. That is why you see FB memes or postings with "Type Amen and you'll receive a blessing" and it gets 30K responses.

 ::)

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 57829
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #737 on: May 07, 2021, 01:27:39 PM »
Biden’s National Day of Prayer proclamation makes no mention of God — but it does talk about racial justice and climate change
SARAH TAYLOR
May 07, 2021   

President Joe Biden's Thursday National Day of Prayer proclamation omitted any mention of God.

It did, however, discuss racial justice and climate change.

What are the details?
Biden's proclamation, issued on Thursday, addressed the power of prayer.

"Throughout our history, Americans of many religions and belief systems have turned to prayer for strength, hope, and guidance," the proclamation began. "Prayer has nourished countless souls and powered moral movements — including essential fights against racial injustice, child labor, and infringement on the rights of disabled Americans. Prayer is also a daily practice for many, whether it is to ask for help or strength, or to give thanks over blessings bestowed."

The president pointed out that the First Amendment protects "the rights of free speech and religious liberty," thus protecting the right of all Americans to pray.

"These freedoms have helped us to create and sustain a Nation of remarkable religious vitality and diversity across the generations," the proclamation added.

Lauding the "healing balm of prayer," Biden added, "As we continue to confront the crises and challenges of our time — from a deadly pandemic, to the loss of lives and livelihoods in its wake, to a reckoning on racial justice, to the existential threat of climate change — Americans of faith can call upon the power of prayer to provide hope and uplift us for the work ahead."

Anything else?
A portion of former President Donald Trump's 2018 proclamation read, "On this National Day of Prayer, let us come together, all according to their faiths, to thank God for His many blessings and ask for His continued guidance and strength."

A portion of former President Barack Obama's 2015 proclamation read, "Through prayer we find the strength to do God's work." A portion of his 2010 proclamation read, "On this day, let us give thanks for the many blessings God has bestowed upon our Nation."

A portion of former President George W. Bush's 2003 proclamation read, "We come together to thank God for our Nation's many blessings, to acknowledge our need for His wisdom and grace, and to ask Him to continue to watch over our country in the days ahead."

A portion of former President Bill Clinton's 1995 proclamation read, "Let us not forget those painful lessons of our past, but continue to seek the guidance of God in all the affairs of our Nation."

A portion of former President George H.W. Bush's 1991 proclamation read, "As one Nation under God, we Americans are deeply mindful of both our dependence on the Almighty and our obligations as a people He has richly blessed."

A portion of former President Ronald Reagan's 1987 proclamation suggested Americans "turn our faces and our hearts to God not only at moments of personal danger and civil strife, but in the full flower of the liberty, peace, and abundance that He has showered upon us."

A portion of former President Jimmy Carter's 1979 proclamation read, "We endure and remain a land of hope because of the basic goodness and strength of our people and because the God of us all has shown us His favor."

A portion of former President Gerald Ford's 1976 proclamation, issued during the nation's bicentennial celebration, read, "Let us also reflect on the profound faith in God which inspired the founding fathers."

A portion of former President Richard Nixon's 1973 proclamation read, "America is a nation under God."

A portion of former President Lyndon B. Johnson's 1967 proclamation read, "Let each of us pray that God will endow us with the constancy to prevail in defense of freedom, and with the courage and resolution to preserve and extend His blessings of liberty."

A portion of former President John F. Kennedy's 1962 proclamation read, "May we especially ask God's blessing upon our homes, that this integral unit of society may nurture our youth and give to them the needed faith in God, in our Nation, and in their future."

A portion of former President Dwight D. Eisenhower's 1959 proclamation read, "Let us remember that our God is the God of all men, that only as all men are free can liberty be secure for any, and that only as all prosper can any be content in their good fortune."

A portion of former President Harry Truman's 1952 proclamation suggested Americans "beseech God to grant us wisdom to know the course which we should follow."

https://www.theblaze.com/news/biden-national-day-of-prayer-omits-god

Agnostic007

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 12773
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #738 on: May 09, 2021, 10:14:03 PM »
"It should be noted, however, that Biden did mention the word “Lord” in his May 2021 National Day of Prayer proclamation. At the end, Biden writes that this proclamation was signed in “the year of our Lord two thousand twenty-one.” It should also be noted that Biden mentioned the word “God” in a video message commemorating the National Day of Prayer.

Biden said: “By the grace of God and the extraordinary work of researches and scientists, we have vaccines that have proven to be safe and effective … Thank you for your prayers and may God Bless you and all those you love and are concerned about on this day and every day.”

Not that I care either way.... kinda goes without saying when you're talking about a national day of prayer that you are praying to something..

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 57829
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #739 on: May 10, 2021, 03:20:14 PM »
"It should be noted, however, that Biden did mention the word “Lord” in his May 2021 National Day of Prayer proclamation. At the end, Biden writes that this proclamation was signed in “the year of our Lord two thousand twenty-one.” It should also be noted that Biden mentioned the word “God” in a video message commemorating the National Day of Prayer.

Biden said: “By the grace of God and the extraordinary work of researches and scientists, we have vaccines that have proven to be safe and effective … Thank you for your prayers and may God Bless you and all those you love and are concerned about on this day and every day.”

Not that I care either way.... kinda goes without saying when you're talking about a national day of prayer that you are praying to something..

I think the overall point is Biden trying to de-emphasize God.  Same as Obama.  For example, I think the reason Biden couldn't say the line from the Declaration of Independence (where he said "you know the thing") was because he didn't want to say the "endowed by their Creator" line, but couldn't think fast enough to come up with alternative words.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights . . . ."


Agnostic007

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 12773
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #740 on: May 10, 2021, 08:29:51 PM »
I think the overall point is Biden trying to de-emphasize God.  Same as Obama.  For example, I think the reason Biden couldn't say the line from the Declaration of Independence (where he said "you know the thing") was because he didn't want to say the "endowed by their Creator" line, but couldn't think fast enough to come up with alternative words.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights . . . ."



cool.. de emphasizing a ridiculous belief in a supernatural being is not a bad thing for critically thinking adults..

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 57829
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #741 on: May 10, 2021, 11:57:48 PM »
cool.. de emphasizing a ridiculous belief in a supernatural being is not a bad thing for critically thinking adults..

Believing in nothing and ridiculing people of faith doesn't require much critical thinking.  It's boring.  Contemplating a higher intelligent life, faith, and study requires a great deal of critical thinking.  Much more interesting. 

Humble Narcissist

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14301
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #742 on: May 11, 2021, 09:59:43 AM »
Believing in nothing and ridiculing people of faith doesn't require much critical thinking.  It's boring.  Contemplating a higher intelligent life, faith, and study requires a great deal of critical thinking.  Much more interesting.
Good point.

Skeletor

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 11938
  • Silence you furry fool!
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #743 on: May 11, 2021, 12:06:46 PM »
I think the overall point is Biden trying to de-emphasize God.  Same as Obama.  For example, I think the reason Biden couldn't say the line from the Declaration of Independence (where he said "you know the thing") was because he didn't want to say the "endowed by their Creator" line, but couldn't think fast enough to come up with alternative words.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights . . . ."



Someone could say this about Obama but with Biden you have a bumbling dolt with a 50 year political career full of foot-in-mouth moments who, at this stage in his life, is also senile. While it's possible that Biden was attempting to "de-emphasize" god, I think it's more plausible that he's just senile or cognitively declining:




ThisisOverload

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2098
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #744 on: May 11, 2021, 03:29:29 PM »
Contemplating a higher intelligent life, faith, and study requires a great deal of critical thinking.  Much more interesting.

From a philosophical point of view sure, but using religion to control how people think and live their daily life doesn't require critical thinking.

It's perfectly fine for an intelligent person to not believe in religion and focus on more important matters in life. Take Elon Musk for example.  Look at what he has done, it's unreal.

If we left religion behind and focused on a science based lifestyle, our society would be a much better place and we would be far more advanced than we are today.

That's a pretty critical point IMO.

Imagine all the time and money people waste on religion; take that money and effort, put it towards advancing technology and mental wellbeing. This world would be far better off without all the fake gods.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 57829
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #745 on: May 11, 2021, 03:34:16 PM »

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 57829
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #746 on: May 11, 2021, 03:36:29 PM »
Someone could say this about Obama but with Biden you have a bumbling dolt with a 50 year political career full of foot-in-mouth moments who, at this stage in his life, is also senile. While it's possible that Biden was attempting to "de-emphasize" god, I think it's more plausible that he's just senile or cognitively declining:



Man those are just painful to watch. 

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 57829
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #747 on: May 11, 2021, 03:44:36 PM »
From a philosophical point of view sure, but using religion to control how people think and live their daily life doesn't require critical thinking.

It's perfectly fine for an intelligent person to not believe in religion and focus on more important matters in life. Take Elon Musk for example.  Look at what he has done, it's unreal.

If we left religion behind and focused on a science based lifestyle, our society would be a much better place and we would be far more advanced than we are today.

That's a pretty critical point IMO.

Imagine all the time and money people waste on religion; take that money and effort, put it towards advancing technology and mental wellbeing. This world would be far better off without all the fake gods.

That's one way to look it at. 

For me, I don't think it has to be either faith or science.  They compliment each other.  In fact, I've had numerous discussions and disagreements with people on this board over one of my central viewpoints:  faith is a part of science.  There are things that cannot be scientifically proved, but that are accepted on faith.  People don't call it faith, but that's effectively what it is.  Like the origins of life on earth.  Whatever theory you accept, it is a faith-based theory.

I was just talking to one of my running buddies the other day who asked me why I go to church.  I told him it's not for the sermons, because I've been in church my entire life and I've probably heard every sermon known to man, twice.  It's not for the people, because if I put my faith in people I would have left the church a long time ago.  It's really to keep me grounded.  To keep me humble.  To be thankful.  To have an hour or so of peace and happiness.  I told him that organized religion is great.  It's no different than our political system, legal system, etc. that are terrific on paper.  It's the people who screw it up.   


ThisisOverload

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2098
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #748 on: May 11, 2021, 04:11:52 PM »
That's one way to look it at. 

For me, I don't think it has to be either faith or science.  They compliment each other.  In fact, I've had numerous discussions and disagreements with people on this board over one of my central viewpoints:  faith is a part of science.  There are things that cannot be scientifically proved, but that are accepted on faith.  People don't call it faith, but that's effectively what it is.  Like the origins of life on earth.  Whatever theory you accept, it is a faith-based theory.

I was just talking to one of my running buddies the other day who asked me why I go to church.  I told him it's not for the sermons, because I've been in church my entire life and I've probably heard every sermon known to man, twice.  It's not for the people, because if I put my faith in people I would have left the church a long time ago.  It's really to keep me grounded.  To keep me humble.  To be thankful.  To have an hour or so of peace and happiness.  I told him that organized religion is great.  It's no different than our political system, legal system, etc. that are terrific on paper.  It's the people who screw it up.   

I agree to a certain extent. However religion has never lived up to the scientific method of critical thinking, it is entirely based on faith. Which is fine i guess. I just have a hard time believing in things that are not real. In Science we do have hypothesis, but we also have "Assumptions", so i can see how someone could consider faith a part of that. I've never really thought of it like that, but that's a fair point. However in Science i can measure and draw conclusions based on facts that are derived from "faith" or "assumptions", so it is not the same for me personally. As you cannot measure religion other than what the Bible tells you. It hasn't changed for a reason, it is not dynamic.

Religion does give people hope and removes the fear of death or of losing a loved one. That's why i generally don't have a problem with it. It is a good method to control people and keep them docile. This planet would be very different if the majority of the people did not fear God(s).

But i have also seen so many people use religion as a weapon to ruin lives, start wars, steal money and manipulate people; it's hard for me to take it seriously. Too much hypocrisy in religion IMO. Do as i say, not as i do.

I went to church twice a week for 18 years, i've read the Bible cover to cover three times. It's not something i consider real, it's full of great stories, but my mind cannot accept these stories any more than urban myths or tall tales like John Henry the Hammer Man.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 57829
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #749 on: May 11, 2021, 04:37:58 PM »
I agree to a certain extent. However religion has never lived up to the scientific method of critical thinking, it is entirely based on faith. Which is fine i guess. I just have a hard time believing in things that are not real. In Science we do have hypothesis, but we also have "Assumptions", so i can see how someone could consider faith a part of that. I've never really thought of it like that, but that's a fair point. However in Science i can measure and draw conclusions based on facts that are derived from "faith" or "assumptions", so it is not the same for me personally. As you cannot measure religion other than what the Bible tells you. It hasn't changed for a reason, it is not dynamic.

Religion does give people hope and removes the fear of death or of losing a loved one. That's why i generally don't have a problem with it. It is a good method to control people and keep them docile. This planet would be very different if the majority of the people did not fear God(s).

But i have also seen so many people use religion as a weapon to ruin lives, start wars, steal money and manipulate people; it's hard for me to take it seriously. Too much hypocrisy in religion IMO. Do as i say, not as i do.

I went to church twice a week for 18 years, i've read the Bible cover to cover three times. It's not something i consider real, it's full of great stories, but my mind cannot accept these stories any more than urban myths or tall tales like John Henry the Hammer Man.

I understand where you're coming from.  I was having a discussion with someone the other day about a specific part of the Bible that tells people not to be a stumbling block for others.  That's a direct message to people who are partly responsible for causing people to walk away from their faith.  It happens.  A lot.  Still, that is a problem with people, not faith. 

Also important to keep in mind that the Bible is not a science book.  It does have a bunch of stories, parables, commands, recommendations, etc.  There are historical facts and persons that are historically accurate, but I don't consider it a science book at all.