Author Topic: Anyone remember when...  (Read 5428 times)

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Anyone remember when...
« on: September 16, 2006, 12:23:14 AM »
1991 I think... It was 15 years ago.  We were fighting iraq in Desert Storm.  Remember how their soldiers really looked forward to surrendering?  There would be ten tanks that stumbled upon one US truck, and they'd surrender and follow him back to the base to turn themselves in.  Back then, they knew we had the weaponry to destroy them, and they also know that the US-led coalition would treat them right.  They actually looked fwd to being a POW so they could eat well again.

Fast forward 15 years.  Same country, same two sides.  Many of the same soldiers on both sides.  And this time they kill several of our soldiers a day.  Do they look fwd to surrender?  Not this time.  back then, Bush1 would tell them to surrender and live.  Today, bush2 tells the world that the US, and only the US, should be allowed to dish out torture anytime it sees fit.

There were terrorists back then.  There was bin laden back then.  if anything, the advancements in technology of the last 15 years should make it easier for terrorism to be stopped these days.

So what is different now?  Why don't other countries want to fight in iraq with us this time?  Why dont' the soldiers surrender this time?  Why are we losing this time?


ozman

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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2006, 12:26:14 AM »
Allah  ?

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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2006, 07:33:50 AM »
1991 I think... It was 15 years ago.  We were fighting iraq in Desert Storm.  Remember how their soldiers really looked forward to surrendering?  There would be ten tanks that stumbled upon one US truck, and they'd surrender and follow him back to the base to turn themselves in.  Back then, they knew we had the weaponry to destroy them, and they also know that the US-led coalition would treat them right.  They actually looked fwd to being a POW so they could eat well again.

Fast forward 15 years.  Same country, same two sides.  Many of the same soldiers on both sides.  And this time they kill several of our soldiers a day.  Do they look fwd to surrender?  Not this time.  back then, Bush1 would tell them to surrender and live.  Today, bush2 tells the world that the US, and only the US, should be allowed to dish out torture anytime it sees fit.

There were terrorists back then.  There was bin laden back then.  if anything, the advancements in technology of the last 15 years should make it easier for terrorism to be stopped these days.

So what is different now?  Why don't other countries want to fight in iraq with us this time?  Why dont' the soldiers surrender this time?  Why are we losing this time?



This is a new war, a cultural, religious war, funded mostly by Iran.

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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2006, 07:59:42 AM »
This is a new war, a cultural, religious war, funded mostly by Iran.
times change politics religion rule,plus we are scared of a possible attack here as well ,last time iraq really had no back up know they have every terrorist on there side..
p

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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2006, 08:05:10 AM »
1991 I think... It was 15 years ago.  We were fighting iraq in Desert Storm.  Remember how their soldiers really looked forward to surrendering?  There would be ten tanks that stumbled upon one US truck, and they'd surrender and follow him back to the base to turn themselves in.  Back then, they knew we had the weaponry to destroy them, and they also know that the US-led coalition would treat them right.  They actually looked fwd to being a POW so they could eat well again.

Fast forward 15 years.  Same country, same two sides.  Many of the same soldiers on both sides.  And this time they kill several of our soldiers a day.  Do they look fwd to surrender?  Not this time.  back then, Bush1 would tell them to surrender and live.  Today, bush2 tells the world that the US, and only the US, should be allowed to dish out torture anytime it sees fit.

There were terrorists back then.  There was bin laden back then.  if anything, the advancements in technology of the last 15 years should make it easier for terrorism to be stopped these days.

So what is different now?  Why don't other countries want to fight in iraq with us this time?  Why dont' the soldiers surrender this time?  Why are we losing this time?



It's a very different war. 

In the first gulf war the iraqi army was in the middle fo the desert hunkered down.  There wasn't much urban fighting.  They had 2 choices:  Surrender or die fighting.  Their governemtn wasn't being overthrown.  We had much better justification in that war becuase of Kuwait.  So other countries were able to send troops and not lose the support of their poeple.

In this war.  It's primarily urban and city areas.  We don;t have th same justification so other countries see it for what it is:  Plain agggression.

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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2006, 08:10:14 AM »
1991 I think... It was 15 years ago.  We were fighting iraq in Desert Storm.  Remember how their soldiers really looked forward to surrendering?  There would be ten tanks that stumbled upon one US truck, and they'd surrender and follow him back to the base to turn themselves in.  Back then, they knew we had the weaponry to destroy them, and they also know that the US-led coalition would treat them right.  They actually looked fwd to being a POW so they could eat well again.

Fast forward 15 years.  Same country, same two sides.  Many of the same soldiers on both sides.  And this time they kill several of our soldiers a day.  Do they look fwd to surrender?  Not this time.  back then, Bush1 would tell them to surrender and live.  Today, bush2 tells the world that the US, and only the US, should be allowed to dish out torture anytime it sees fit.

There were terrorists back then.  There was bin laden back then.  if anything, the advancements in technology of the last 15 years should make it easier for terrorism to be stopped these days.

So what is different now?  Why don't other countries want to fight in iraq with us this time?  Why dont' the soldiers surrender this time?  Why are we losing this time?



1st how should tech help stop a religious nut from blowing up himself with a car bomb? People willing to die and take others with them can't be stopped anywhere in the world no matter what the support. The main difference is not the troops surrendering now they did when we invaded in 91 and again in 2002 but now the "war" is over and its a small group of terriorist who are fighting a gurella tactic war not big military units moving on a battlefield.You can fight a guriella war for decades and never show who wins (see israel).We are not losing since we control the territory but we are not winning either because the military is not trained or equiped to handle a long term gurella war that last for 10's of years with no hope in sight. The military is a target group, not a hold forever group. Until the goverment pulls out and lets whatever happens and whoever shakes out on top after the civil war we will always have the same result. Other countries not supporting us is backlash from us after 9/11 telling the wqorld we will invade who we want where we want and do not care if you like it or not.

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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2006, 08:32:48 AM »
This is a new war, a cultural, religious war, funded mostly by Iran.

I agree.  The people killing our soldiers are a very small percentage of the population over there.  They do not represent the feelings of the majority. 

Also, Saddam was in charge the first time and his soldiers would have rather been POW's than fight for his unjust, torturous, murderous a**.  Plus he wasn't feeding them ::)
R

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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2006, 12:02:01 PM »

So what is different now?  Why don't other countries want to fight in iraq with us this time?  Why dont' the soldiers surrender this time?  Why are we losing this time?



Because we weren't in Iraq last time....it was a little place called Kuwait.  The Iraq soldiers did not want to be there & knew invading Kuwait was a bad idea.

Hope this helps

Mr. Intenseone

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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2006, 12:06:25 PM »
1991 I think... It was 15 years ago.  We were fighting iraq in Desert Storm.  Remember how their soldiers really looked forward to surrendering?  There would be ten tanks that stumbled upon one US truck, and they'd surrender and follow him back to the base to turn themselves in.  Back then, they knew we had the weaponry to destroy them, and they also know that the US-led coalition would treat them right.  They actually looked fwd to being a POW so they could eat well again.

Fast forward 15 years.  Same country, same two sides.  Many of the same soldiers on both sides.  And this time they kill several of our soldiers a day.  Do they look fwd to surrender?  Not this time.  back then, Bush1 would tell them to surrender and live.  Today, bush2 tells the world that the US, and only the US, should be allowed to dish out torture anytime it sees fit.

There were terrorists back then.  There was bin laden back then.  if anything, the advancements in technology of the last 15 years should make it easier for terrorism to be stopped these days.

So what is different now?  Why don't other countries want to fight in iraq with us this time?  Why dont' the soldiers surrender this time?  Why are we losing this time?



Remember in 1993 when the WTC was bombed and Clinton surrendered to the terrorists and did nothing??

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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2006, 12:24:23 PM »
The reason Iraqi soldiers surrendered was we bombed them for a month before rolling in on the ground.  By the time our troops came through the Iraqis were decimated.  Plus they wanted to go home.  They weren't kamikazes. 

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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2006, 04:03:43 PM »
Remember in 1993 when the WTC was bombed and Clinton surrendered to the terrorists and did nothing??

Mr I,
There's a darn good reason Clinton chose not to bomb anyone for this:

THE NEW YORK TIMES
* * * * *
Thursday October 28, 1993 Page A1

"Tapes Depict Proposal to Thwart Bomb Used in Trade Center Blast"

By Ralph Blumenthal


Law-enforcement officials were told that terrorists were building
a bomb that was eventually used to blow up the World Trade Center,
and they planned to thwart the plotters by secretly substituting
harmless powder for the explosives, an informer said after
the blast.


The informer was to have helped the plotters build the bomb
and supply the fake powder, but the plan was called off by
an F.B.I. supervisor who had other ideas about how the informer,
Emad Salem, should be used
, the informer said.

The account, which is given in the transcript of hundreds of
hours of tape recordings that Mr. Salem secretly made of his
talks with law-enforcement agents, portrays the authorities as
being in a far better position than previously known to foil
the February 26th bombing of New York City's tallest towers.


The explosion left six people dead, more than a thousand people
injured, and damages in excess of half-a-billion dollars.
Four men are now on trial in Manhattan Federal Court
[on charges of involvement] in that attack.

Mr. Salem, a 43-year-old former Egyptian Army officer, was used
by the Government [of the United States]
to penetrate a circle
of Muslim extremists who are now charged in two bombing cases:
the World Trade Center attack, and a foiled plot to destroy
the United Nations, the Hudson River tunnels, and other
New York City landmarks. He is the crucial witness in the
second bombing case, but his work for the Government was
erratic, and for months before the World Trade Center blast,
he was feuding with th F.B.I.

Supervisor `Messed It Up'

After the bombing, he resumed his undercover work. In an
undated transcript of a conversation from that period,
Mr. Salem recounts a talk he had had earlier with an agent
about an unnamed F.B.I. supervisor who, he said,
"came and messed it up."
"He requested to meet me in the hotel,"

Mr. Salem says of the supervisor.
"He requested to make me to testify, and if he didn't
push for that, we'll be going building the bomb with
a phony powder, and grabbing the people who was
involved in it. But since you, we didn't do that."

The transcript quotes Mr. Salem as saying that he wanted to
complain to F.B.I. Headquarters in Washington about the
Bureau's failure to stop the bombing, but was dissuaded by
an agent identified as John Anticev.


Mr. Salem said Mr. Anticev had told him,
"He said, I don't think that the New York people would
like the things out of the New York Office to go to
Washington, D.C."

Another agent, identified as Nancy Floyd, does not dispute
Mr. Salem's account, but rather, appears to agree with it,
saying of the `New York people':

"Well, of course not, because they don't want to
get their butts chewed."

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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2006, 04:07:16 PM »
The FBI Bombed the World Trade Center in 1993
Author: James Redford | Date: 05-04-2006 | Posted in: talk.politics.libertaria n | Show original

It was the FBI that bombed the World Trade Center in 1993. None of
this would be known today if it were not for the FBI's undercover
agent Emad A. Salem taping his conversations with his FBI handlers
(unbeknownst to them). Salem thought that the FBI might try to pin it
on him so he took measures to protect himself. Indeed, without the FBI
the '93 WTC bombing would never have happened, as it was agent Salem
who built the bomb for the would-be Muslim "terrorists." Salem wanted
to use fake ingredients for the "bomb" but the FBI ordered him to make
a real one. When the making of the bomb was complete Salem told the
FBI that they could now arrest the would-be terrorists, but the FBI
told Salem that the bombing is to go forward. After agent Salem went
public with his tapes in a news conference the FBI found it necessary
to pay him over a million dollars just to shut him up.

For more on the above, see the below New York Times articles:

"Tapes Depict Proposal to Thwart Bomb Used in Trade Center Blast,"
Ralph Blumenthal, New York Times, October 28, 1993, Section A, Page 1,
Column 4; and "Tapes in Bombing Plot Show Informer and F.B.I. at
Odds," Ralph Blumenthal, New York Times, October 27, 1993, Section A,
Page 1, Column 4:

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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2006, 04:09:26 PM »
http://nwo.media.xs2.net/tape/emad%20salem.mp3

here is part of the recording. There are many hours online.  The FBI knew this bombing was coming and helped build that groovy bomb.

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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2006, 04:10:11 PM »
Two cassette tape recordings, obtained by SHADOW reporter Paul DeRienzo of telephone conversations between FBI informant Emad Salem and his Bureau contacts reveal secret U.S. Government complicity in the February 26, 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center in New York City in which six people were killed and more than a thousand were injured.

After careful deliberation, the SHADOW believes the question regarding the bombing boils down to the following: Did the FBI do the bombing, utilizing informant Salem as an "agent provocateur" or did it fail to prevent an independent Salem and his associates from doing it? The taped conversations obtained by the SHADOW seem to indicate the former:

FBI Informant Edam Salem: "...we was start already building the bomb which is went off in the World Trade Center. It was built by supervising supervision from the Bureau and the DA and we was all informed about it and we know that the bomb start to be built. By who? By your confidential informant. What a wonderful great case!" [Listen]


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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2006, 04:48:57 PM »
Remember in 1993 when the WTC was bombed and Clinton surrendered to the terrorists and did nothing??

Remember we launched 63 tomohawk missles at a Al-Queda terrorist base in Afghanistan a few months after that?

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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2006, 04:54:23 PM »
Remember we launched 63 tomohawk missles at a Al-Queda terrorist base in Afghanistan a few months after that?

Actually I think that was 6 months later in mid august, and in response to August attacks that killed 200+ people at the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzanianianiania

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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2006, 04:59:25 PM »
Well there ya go,  he repsonded to something!   ;D

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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2006, 07:12:13 PM »
Remember we launched 63 tomohawk missles at a Al-Queda terrorist base in Afghanistan a few months after that?

Oh yeah, that the one where they hit the asprin factory......good job......who shot the missles, Ray Charles?

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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2006, 08:06:10 PM »
Oh yeah, that the one where they hit the asprin factory......good job......who shot the missles, Ray Charles?

In 1998, the Taliban gave us his location and the green light.  We hit it but missed him by minutes.

In spring 2001, we negotiated with the Taliban for permission to put an oil pipeline in Afghanistan.

In Sept 2001, we told the world that the Taliban wasn't a real govt, then we bombed and evicted them.

Weird that we would get permission to fire missiles and put oil pipelines into a country from the Taliban, but we declared  them enemy combatants when we wanted to invade.

Oh, that's right.  If they were a real country, we couldn't have them all in Gitmo right now.  War prisoners go home when the war ends.  Enemy combatants never go home.

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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2006, 08:35:35 PM »
In 1998, the Taliban gave us his location and the green light.  We hit it but missed him by minutes.

In spring 2001, we negotiated with the Taliban for permission to put an oil pipeline in Afghanistan.

In Sept 2001, we told the world that the Taliban wasn't a real govt, then we bombed and evicted them.

Weird that we would get permission to fire missiles and put oil pipelines into a country from the Taliban, but we declared  them enemy combatants when we wanted to invade.

Oh, that's right.  If they were a real country, we couldn't have them all in Gitmo right now.  War prisoners go home when the war ends.  Enemy combatants never go home.

Clinton actually had on at least 10 different occations and let him go!  Sounds like your getting all hyped up for NY meeting next week!

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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2006, 08:46:06 PM »
Clinton actually had on at least 10 different occations and let him go!  Sounds like your getting all hyped up for NY meeting next week!

I agree - Clinton completely dropped the ball and IMO, left him alive because he didn't want to deal with the backlash, and may have had his hands full with his own marriage mess.

NY - If anything said by anyone brings us closer to the TRUTH about 911, the war, foreign relations, or the current state of affairs, I would like to hear it.

Don't you?

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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2006, 09:09:20 PM »
1991 I think... It was 15 years ago.  We were fighting iraq in Desert Storm.  Remember how their soldiers really looked forward to surrendering?  There would be ten tanks that stumbled upon one US truck, and they'd surrender and follow him back to the base to turn themselves in.  Back then, they knew we had the weaponry to destroy them, and they also know that the US-led coalition would treat them right.  They actually looked fwd to being a POW so they could eat well again.

Fast forward 15 years.  Same country, same two sides.  Many of the same soldiers on both sides.  And this time they kill several of our soldiers a day.  Do they look fwd to surrender?  Not this time.  back then, Bush1 would tell them to surrender and live.  Today, bush2 tells the world that the US, and only the US, should be allowed to dish out torture anytime it sees fit.

There were terrorists back then.  There was bin laden back then.  if anything, the advancements in technology of the last 15 years should make it easier for terrorism to be stopped these days.

So what is different now?  Why don't other countries want to fight in iraq with us this time?  Why dont' the soldiers surrender this time?  Why are we losing this time?


One factor, as you said.... It's a lot harder to surrender with visions of torture dancing in your head... Another factor no matter if it's true or not is that the fact we wanted to initially come in and privatize the oil fields and that quickly circulated around Iraq--the message being we wanted their oil, not their liberation from a dictator hell bent on threatening the world/America with WMD.  Another factor is that it's easy for Arabs to see this war as a war by and for Israel even if it's not true?  With the first Gulf War, being in the distinct defense of an Arab nation from an invader, it's much harder if not impossible to pin it on Israeli interests... The first war had benefits for Arab nations feeling the heat from Saddam.  This time around it's different in so many ways.  It also doesn't help when Bush keeps putting religious perspectives on every bit of this... That brings visions of the Crusades, no wonder there is a growing insurgency and extremism in the region.  What would we be doing in this land if we were occupied and the leader of the occupation was using words like, “Christian Fascism” and there were stories everywhere by people being tortured even to death in some cases.  I know what I would be doing to the invaders of America if that ever happend and I'm not even Christian.

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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2006, 09:21:48 PM »
Remember in 1993 when the WTC was bombed and Clinton surrendered to the terrorists and did nothing??
240, you gotta start calling out these guys for using red herrings... It's like standard operating procedure with these guys... This is a different subject completely... Int especially, and others come in, don't address the question, and instead divert the point to something they feel they can make an easy argument of...  Start calling them on it.... It's sickening seeing how often it's attempted here.

Mr. Intenseone

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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2006, 10:16:16 PM »
240, you gotta start calling out these guys for using red herrings... It's like standard operating procedure with these guys... This is a different subject completely... Int especially, and others come in, don't address the question, and instead divert the point to something they feel they can make an easy argument of...  Start calling them on it.... It's sickening seeing how often it's attempted here.


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Re: Anyone remember when...
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2006, 11:30:07 PM »
Let me fix that for ya int...