"Insurrection"

[OzmO]

What are your points? Nobody is denying it happened, you have your opinion that there was some sort of "insurrection" that we can disagree on. As far as the number of people actually killed, I believe Grape Apes link clears up most of your confusion.

I made my points plainly.

I don't have any confusion about the number of people actually killed.  I think you might have me mixed up with another poster.

[Coach is Back!]

https://townhall.com/columnists/stephenmoore/2021/06/15/the-insurrection-in-chicago-n2590997

[Body-Buildah]

Pffft, that was mostly peaceful Joe, nothing to see here!! 

--

Thankfully, four reporters at the Chicago Tribune have investigated what really happened in the once great "city that works" and the devastating effects that still are felt. It's harrowing and Pulitzer-worthy material.

Written and reported by Todd Lighty, Gary Marx, Christy Gutowski and William Lee, we urge a full reading, but here are the lowlights:

In just a few days, there were 15 homicides and 53 shooting victims. More than 2,100 businesses were looted, 71 buildings were set on fire and looters stole more than 700,000 prescription pills from drug stores.

Businesses suffered more than $165 million in damages, "though the true cost is certainly much higher."

Mayor Lori Lightfoot had no clue what was coming, and her response was indefensibly feeble. She did not want the National Guard, even as the city burned.


The city's inspector general issued a scathing report, which portrays Lightfoot as woefully unprepared, as were other mayors. Downtown businesses were destroyed.

"I thought, 'I'm a Black-owned business. They're not going to bother me,'" said Howard Bolling, owner of the Roseland Pharmacy at 11254 S. Michigan Ave.

No such luck.

The riots even forced families at the Ronald McDonald House, where parents' sick children are cared for, to flee for their safety. Protesters used hammers to smash windows and doors.

The Ronald McDonald House is a cancer facility.

Here is what is most infuriating. Throughout that first wave of rioting, looting, arson and murder, only about 170 rioters were charged with felonies. It should have been 1,000 or more. Why hasn't Chicago law enforcement looked through the videos and tracked down these violent criminals?

Based on the property damage, the homicides, the injuries and the financial losses to the residents, this insurrection was many times worse than the indefensible actions at the U.S. capital by pro-Trump protesters on Jan. 6.

Why is no one paying attention to and amplifying the Tribune story of what happened in Chicago? Why is no one writing similar accounts of the carnage in Minneapolis, Milwaukee, New York, Kenosha, Portland and Los Angeles? Why isn't the local law enforcement and the FBI hunting down the perpetrators and putting them behind bars? We have video evidence of who they are and what they did. President Joe Biden seems only interested in putting the pro-Trump protesters behind bars.

[Grape Ape]

Oh snap.

[Dos Equis]

Some of them were let in... so what?  Others broke in.

Is the investigation still ongoing?

The ones who were let in should not be charged with trespassing.

I just gave you a link showing everyone who has been charged and not a single person has been charged with insurrection.  Pretty telling. 

If we're being logical, and it's "silly" not to call this an insurrection, then at least some of the hundreds of people charged should be charged with insurrection. 

[Dos Equis]

Pffft, that was mostly peaceful Joe, nothing to see here!! 

--

Thankfully, four reporters at the Chicago Tribune have investigated what really happened in the once great "city that works" and the devastating effects that still are felt. It's harrowing and Pulitzer-worthy material.

Written and reported by Todd Lighty, Gary Marx, Christy Gutowski and William Lee, we urge a full reading, but here are the lowlights:

In just a few days, there were 15 homicides and 53 shooting victims. More than 2,100 businesses were looted, 71 buildings were set on fire and looters stole more than 700,000 prescription pills from drug stores.

Businesses suffered more than $165 million in damages, "though the true cost is certainly much higher."

Mayor Lori Lightfoot had no clue what was coming, and her response was indefensibly feeble. She did not want the National Guard, even as the city burned.


The city's inspector general issued a scathing report, which portrays Lightfoot as woefully unprepared, as were other mayors. Downtown businesses were destroyed.

"I thought, 'I'm a Black-owned business. They're not going to bother me,'" said Howard Bolling, owner of the Roseland Pharmacy at 11254 S. Michigan Ave.

No such luck.

The riots even forced families at the Ronald McDonald House, where parents' sick children are cared for, to flee for their safety. Protesters used hammers to smash windows and doors.

The Ronald McDonald House is a cancer facility.

Here is what is most infuriating. Throughout that first wave of rioting, looting, arson and murder, only about 170 rioters were charged with felonies. It should have been 1,000 or more. Why hasn't Chicago law enforcement looked through the videos and tracked down these violent criminals?

Based on the property damage, the homicides, the injuries and the financial losses to the residents, this insurrection was many times worse than the indefensible actions at the U.S. capital by pro-Trump protesters on Jan. 6.

Why is no one paying attention to and amplifying the Tribune story of what happened in Chicago? Why is no one writing similar accounts of the carnage in Minneapolis, Milwaukee, New York, Kenosha, Portland and Los Angeles? Why isn't the local law enforcement and the FBI hunting down the perpetrators and putting them behind bars? We have video evidence of who they are and what they did. President Joe Biden seems only interested in putting the pro-Trump protesters behind bars.

And that's just one city. 

[OzmO]

The ones who were let in should not be charged with trespassing.

I just gave you a link showing everyone who has been charged and not a single person has been charged with insurrection.  Pretty telling. 

If we're being logical, and it's "silly" not to call this an insurrection, then at least some of the hundreds of people charged should be charged with insurrection.

Pretty telling if the investigation is over and everyone who is going to be charged is charged and the charges are final.  Is that the case or no?

If they don't end up being charged with insurrection, I have no problem with that because I am assuming the evidence was measured against what the laws say.

But what I see, behind this computer, in my fake ivory tower, my 64GB of RAM, and my Get Big law degree, is some of those people had pre-meditated intent (based on their comments) and actions that match it.

Should these people be put in prison for the rest of their lives... treated like traitors...  Lined up and shot....?   I don't think so.

[Dos Equis]

Pretty telling if the investigation is over and everyone who is going to be charged is charged and the charges are final.  Is that the case or no?

If they don't end up being charged with insurrection, I have no problem with that because I am assuming the evidence was measured against what the laws say.

But what I see, behind this computer, in my fake ivory tower, my 64GB of RAM, and my Get Big law degree, is some of those people had pre-meditated intent (based on their comments) and actions that match it.

Should these people be put in prison for the rest of their lives... treated like traitors...  Lined up and shot....?   I don't think so.

I think if there was evidence of an actual insurrection that at least some of the hundreds of people who have been charged would have been charged with insurrection instead of:  "Conspiracy; obstructing an official proceeding; unlawful entry on restricted building or grounds; tampering with documents or proceedings."

Anyone who broke the law should be held accountable.  But calling this an insurrection is on the 9/11 Troofer, Obama was born in Kenya, Trump was a Russian Manchurian Candidate level. 

[OzmO]

I think if there was evidence of an actual insurrection that at least some of the hundreds of people who have been charged would have been charged with insurrection instead of:  "Conspiracy; obstructing an official proceeding; unlawful entry on restricted building or grounds; tampering with documents or proceedings."

Anyone who broke the law should be held accountable.  But calling this an insurrection is on the 9/11 Troofer, Obama was born in Kenya, Trump was a Russian Manchurian Candidate level.

lol

Some of those people came in with the intent to set up a new government and actions that matched it. 

Now your argument that the possibility of it being successful is so remote that it's silly to charge them with insurrection and they didn't attack with firearms etc. doesn't take away from the fact that some of did go in there (action) with the intent to establish a new government.     

Not sure about the Trump Russia thing.  Honestly, I  thought it was too stupid to begin with and nothing was going to come of it and as a result never really followed it.

You know how deep I got with birthers and truthers.  Not even close in comparison. 

[Dos Equis]

lol

Some of those people came in with the intent to set up a new government and actions that matched it. 

Now your argument that the possibility of it being successful is so remote that it's silly to charge them with insurrection and they didn't attack with firearms etc. doesn't take away from the fact that some of did go in there (action) with the intent to establish a new government.     

Not sure about the Trump Russia thing.  Honestly, I  thought it was too stupid to begin with and nothing was going to come of it and as a result never really followed it.

You know how deep I got with birthers and truthers.  Not even close in comparison.

I don't see a difference.  What you're saying isn't logical.  Some unspecified person, made some unspecified plan to overthrow and run the federal government and our military, using pepper spray.  I bet you cannot even say that out loud with a straight face. 

Here is the insurrection statute:

"Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2383

No one has been charged with violating this.  Bruh this is tinfoil hat stuff.  Don't get caught up in the narrative.   

[OzmO]

I don't see a difference.  What you're saying isn't logical.  Some unspecified person, made some unspecified plan to overthrow and run the federal government and our military, using pepper spray.  I bet you cannot even say that out loud with a straight face. 

Here is the insurrection statute:

"Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2383

No one has been charged with violating this.  Bruh this is tinfoil hat stuff.  Don't get caught up in the narrative.   

A specified person(s), made comments suggesting premeditation (on video), illegally entered the capital building (along with a mob, which some broke in) making comments that they were there to establish a new government.

Like I said, I am willing to concede this based on a determination of the evidence applied to the law. 

You and I do not have all the evidence for us to review.  I am not a lawyer.  Not sure about you. 

That's why I asked a few times now:

Pretty telling if the investigation is over and everyone who is going to be charged is charged and the charges are final.  Is that the case or no?

[Dos Equis]

A specified person(s), made comments suggesting premeditation (on video), illegally entered the capital building (along with a mob, which some broke in) making comments that they were there to establish a new government.

Like I said, I am willing to concede this based on a determination of the evidence applied to the law. 

You and I do not have all the evidence for us to review.  I am not a lawyer.  Not sure about you. 

That's why I asked a few times now:

Pretty telling if the investigation is over and everyone who is going to be charged is charged and the charges are final.  Is that the case or no?

I have no idea how many people they are going to charge.  What I do know is it has been six months and they have charged hundreds of people.  We know exactly who those people are and what they have been charged with (I posted the link). 

Tell me the names of these people so we can see exactly what they have been charged with:  "A specified person(s), made comments suggesting premeditation (on video), illegally entered the capital building (along with a mob, which some broke in) making comments that they were there to establish a new government."

[chaos]

It's the same back and forth with Ozmo as with straw/lurker/funk just without the name calling. Only the media and leftists are calling that an insurrection, like Dos said, not a single insurrection charge, but the media has people convinced that's what it was. What can you do?

[Grape Ape]

It's the same back and forth with Ozmo as with straw/lurker/funk just without the name calling. Only the media and leftists are calling that an insurrection, like Dos said, not a single insurrection charge, but the media has people convinced that's what it was. What can you do?

There have been so many falsehoods proven to be as such - very fine, bleach, clearing out for chuch, russiagate, calling troops losers, find the fraud, etc........

People should learn by now.

But Ozmo is good people, willing to have legit discussion.

[chaos]

But Ozmo is good people, willing to have legit discussion.

Sort of. He doesn't resort to the name calling but he does seem to have drank the msm koolaid.

[Dos Equis]

It's the same back and forth with Ozmo as with straw/lurker/funk just without the name calling. Only the media and leftists are calling that an insurrection, like Dos said, not a single insurrection charge, but the media has people convinced that's what it was. What can you do?

But Ozmo is good people, willing to have legit discussion.

Sort of. He doesn't resort to the name calling but he does seem to have drank the msm koolaid.

I definitely would not mention Ozmo in the same breath as the Village Idiot.  I think he's either just not thinking this through or bored and feels like arguing.  lol

[OzmO]

There have been so many falsehoods proven to be as such - very fine, bleach, clearing out for chuch, russiagate, calling troops losers, find the fraud, etc........

People should learn by now.

But Ozmo is good people, willing to have legit discussion.

I definitely would not mention Ozmo in the same breath as the Village Idiot.  I think he's either just not thinking this through or bored and feels like arguing.  lol

I appreciate the comments.  I like to have a discussion over name-calling for sure.  Sometimes I argue points here just to test an argument.  There are posters here, you two included, whose viewpoints I respect even if I don't always agree with them.  Sometimes you bring up points I didn't consider.  I am always willing to change my viewpoint based on these arguments, input, points, etc.   

Concerning this charge of insurrection.  It's a hard charge to prove.  I still believe what some of the protesters did satisfies the requirements for a charge of insurrection based on the comments that suggest premeditation and breaking into the Captial building.  For a prosecutor to make the charge and prove guilt is another story.  That may be why no one has been charged with insurrection.  Also, are the charges final?  Is the investigation still going on?  Until its final, who is to say.

https://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-18-crimes-and-criminal-procedure/18-usc-sect-2383.html

18 U.S.C. § 2383 - U.S. Code - Unannotated Title 18. Crimes and Criminal Procedure § 2383. Rebellion or insurrection:

Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both;  and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/criminal-charges/rebellion-or-insurrection.html

The first is that, since insurrection and rebellion is a crime, private citizens do not have standing to file charges against someone. Only the government itself, acting through the Office of the Attorney General, can bring charges.

The second reason that rebellion and insurrection are rarely charged is because of the strength of the U.S. Constitution's First Amendment protection of free speech. A certain amount of hyperbole is tolerated, where there aren't accompanying overt acts. The general language of the crime also lends itself to interpretation, making prosecutions a chancier proposition.

Comment:  "While we are here we might as well set up a government". Time: 4:09. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=270F8s5TEKY&t=251s

Overt Acts:  Unlawfully going into the capital building, Challenging the authority of the US Government while in a democratic process, associated violence of the mob.

[Grape Ape]

Concerning this charge of insurrection.  It's a hard charge to prove.  I still believe what some of the protesters did satisfies the requirements for a charge of insurrection based on the comments that suggest premeditation and breaking into the Captial building.  For a prosecutor to make the charge and prove guilt is another story.  That may be why no one has been charged with insurrection.  Also, are the charges final?  Is the investigation still going on?  Until its final, who is to say.

Exactly.  We'll find out.

The left will do everything they can though, as they want this to be the worstest thing ever, to overshadow that passes they gave to the other events of the past year.

[Straw Man]

This idiot seemed to know exactly why THE TRAITOR summoned him to DC on January 6th and knew exactly what THE TRAITOR wanted him to do

He knew he was there to participate in an INSURRECTION and had no problem saying so and putting it in writing as well.

California man organized ‘armed fighters’ for Capitol riot, new court filing says

A Ladera Ranch entrepreneur is suspected of “organizing and fomenting” a group of “armed fighters” to stop Congress’ certification of the presidential election, according to a court filing by federal prosecutors on Tuesday expanding on his alleged role in the Jan. 6 Capitol riot.

Russell Taylor armed himself with a knife, joined a “mob of protesters” that clashed with officers attempting to keep them out of the Capitol building, celebrated “at the sight of the chaos,” and later messaged a friend that the next step would be “insurrection,” federal prosecutors allege in the new court filing.

The filing comes as prosecutors are attempting to keep Taylor, 40, locked up pending trial. Taylor and former La Habra police chief Alan Hostetter – who teamed up together to organize Orange County Stop the Steal and anti-coronavirus pandemic restriction rallies – were criminally charged last week for their role in the Capitol insurrection, along with four other men accused of being involved in the Three Percenters militia.

Taylor’s attorney, Dyke Huish, has previously denied that Taylor is a militant, indicating that his actions were misunderstood.

But federal prosecutors in the new filing explicitly accuse Taylor of setting up a chat group on the messaging app Telegram in order to “organize a group of ‘fighters’ to travel to D.C. with weapons for Jan. 6, 2021 to prevent the peaceful transfer of power.”

Taylor and Hostetter are leaders of the American Phoenix project, which federal prosecutors identify as being founded to “advocate for violence against individuals and groups who supported the 2020 presidential election results.” Prosecutors cite public speeches by Hostetter in which he allegedly referred to “execution” as a “just punishment” for those unwilling to overturn the election results.

Prosecutors say that in a late December message to Hostetter, Taylor wrote, “I truly believe that we were meant to come together to be engaged in this war at this time and as I have said before it is an honor to be shoulder to shoulder with you.”

In a later group message that prosecutors cite as being evidence of Taylor’s “intentions for violence,” Taylor allegedly wrote  regarding the trip to the Capitol that “I personally want to be on the front steps and be one of the first ones to breach the doors!”

The day before the Capitol riot, prosecutors wrote, Taylor gave a public speech outside the Supreme Court in which he said “we will fight and we will bleed before we allow our freedoms to be taken from us.” Later that evening, prosecutors allege, he sent a photo of a tactical vest, knife, hatchets, stone baton, gloves, scarf and backpack with the caption “now getting ready for tomorrow.”

Prosecutors allege that Hostetter drove across the country with a backpack belonging to Taylor that was “full of weapons.” Their other co-defendants – Derek Kinnison, Erik Warner, Ronald Mele and Felipe Martinez – drove cross-country “in an SUV loaded with weapons including firearms, knives and bear spray as well as tactical gear,” according to the new court filing.

On Jan. 6, Taylor and the others marched to the Capitol, where Taylor is alleged to have been “among an initial group of rioters who clashed with a line of law enforcement officers on the Lower West Terrace of the Capitol building.” In the midst of the chaos, Taylor filed a “selfie” video in which he “urged on other rioters who were fighting with officers,” according to prosecutors, reportedly shouting, “Move forward Americans!”

Prosecutors allege that in a chat message later that evening, Taylor wrote, “I was pushing through traitors all day today. WE STORMED THE CAPITOL! Freedom was fully demonstrated today!” Asked by a friend what would happen next, Taylor allegedly responded “Insurrection!”

https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2021/06/16/ladera-ranch-man-organized-armed-fighters-for-capitol-riot-new-court-filing-says/

https://www.thedailybeast.com/accused-capitol-rioter-russell-taylor-in-bid-to-be-released-from-detention

[Dos Equis]

I appreciate the comments.  I like to have a discussion over name-calling for sure.  Sometimes I argue points here just to test an argument.  There are posters here, you two included, whose viewpoints I respect even if I don't always agree with them.  Sometimes you bring up points I didn't consider.  I am always willing to change my viewpoint based on these arguments, input, points, etc.   

Concerning this charge of insurrection.  It's a hard charge to prove.  I still believe what some of the protesters did satisfies the requirements for a charge of insurrection based on the comments that suggest premeditation and breaking into the Captial building.  For a prosecutor to make the charge and prove guilt is another story.  That may be why no one has been charged with insurrection.  Also, are the charges final?  Is the investigation still going on?  Until its final, who is to say.

18 U.S.C. § 2383 - U.S. Code - Unannotated Title 18. Crimes and Criminal Procedure § 2383. Rebellion or insurrection:

Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both;  and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/criminal-charges/rebellion-or-insurrection.html

The first is that, since insurrection and rebellion is a crime, private citizens do not have standing to file charges against someone. Only the government itself, acting through the Office of the Attorney General, can bring charges.

The second reason that rebellion and insurrection are rarely charged is because of the strength of the U.S. Constitution's First Amendment protection of free speech. A certain amount of hyperbole is tolerated, where there aren't accompanying overt acts. The general language of the crime also lends itself to interpretation, making prosecutions a chancier proposition.

Comment:  "While we are here we might as well set up a government". Time: 4:09. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=270F8s5TEKY&t=251s

Overt Acts:  Unlawfully going into the capital building, Challenging the authority of the US Government while in a democratic process, associated violence of the mob.

Which specific people are you talking about here?  We can check their names with the list in the link I provided showing who has been arrested and what they have been charged with. 

A specified person(s), made comments suggesting premeditation (on video), illegally entered the capital building (along with a mob, which some broke in) making comments that they were there to establish a new government.

I heard a soundbite from the FBI Director who said he is unaware of anyone being charged with insurrection. 

Also, there were no weapons recovered/confiscated on the Capitol Grounds that day and no one at the Capitol has been charged with weapons crimes.  Worst insurrection ever.  lol

FBI Official Says No Guns Were Recovered During Capitol Riot Arrests
Trump Supporters Hold "Stop The Steal" Rally In DC Amid Ratification Of Presidential Election
CHUCK ROSS
INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER
March 03, 2021
https://dailycaller.com/2021/03/03/fbi-guns-capitol-riots/

[OzmO]

Which specific people are you talking about here?  We can check their names with the list in the link I provided showing who has been arrested and what they have been charged with. 

I heard a soundbite from the FBI Director who said he is unaware of anyone being charged with insurrection. 

Also, there were no weapons recovered/confiscated on the Capitol Grounds that day and no one at the Capitol has been charged with weapons crimes.  Worst insurrection ever.  lol

FBI Official Says No Guns Were Recovered During Capitol Riot Arrests
Trump Supporters Hold "Stop The Steal" Rally In DC Amid Ratification Of Presidential Election
CHUCK ROSS
INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER
March 03, 2021
https://dailycaller.com/2021/03/03/fbi-guns-capitol-riots/

How would I know the name of the person?

[Dos Equis]

How would I know the name of the person?

I assumed you did.  I pointed out a gaping hole in your view on this by highlighting you're not even talking about specific people:

I don't see a difference.  What you're saying isn't logical.  Some unspecified person, made some unspecified plan to overthrow and run the federal government and our military, using pepper spray.  I bet you cannot even say that out loud with a straight face. 

You responded as if you know who those specific people are:

A specified person(s), made comments suggesting premeditation (on video), illegally entered the capital building (along with a mob, which some broke in) making comments that they were there to establish a new government.

Who are these "specified persons(s)"?  The reason I'm asking is we have a list of everyone who has been charged.  I want to see exactly whether these "specified person(s)" were charged and if so what they were charged with. 

[OzmO]

I assumed you did.  I pointed out a gaping hole in your view on this by highlighting you're not even talking about specific people:

You responded as if you know who those specific people are:

Who are these "specified persons(s)"?  The reason I'm asking is we have a list of everyone who has been charged.  I want to see exactly whether these "specified person(s)" were charged and if so what they were charged with.

Why would you assume I had the name of the person?

Do you think I am involved in the investigation?

Even if I was I couldn't release details about it.

I said specified because it's on video.   Are you suggesting they don't know that person's name?

[Dos Equis]

Why would you assume I had the name of the person?

Do you think I am involved in the investigation?

Even if I was I couldn't release details about it.

I said specified because it's on video.   Are you suggesting they don't know that person's name?

Because YOU said "specified person(s)."  So what you're really saying is someone was on a video, saying something about overthrowing and running the United States government, but you don't know who that specific person is or whether they have been charged with a crime. 

[OzmO]

Because YOU said "specified person(s)."  So what you're really saying is someone was on a video, saying something about overthrowing and running the United States government, but you don't who that specific person is or whether they have been charged with a crime.

So?

How would I know that person's name if I am not involved in the investigation?

And what does me knowing that person's name have to do with that person being part of the capitol riot mob that broke into the capital building and talked about setting up a government all caught on video?

I said specified because it shows that person on video saying it.  It's not unspecified suggesting hearsay or anonymous.