Hitler

[Irongrip400]

Now that we are 70 or so years after his reign, and most who had to deal with him are dead, how will he be remembered?  What I wonder, is that will he eventually just be remembered as a conqueror, or will the atrocities he committed keep with his legacy?  Will he be remembered with the likes of Napoleon and Julius Caesar , or something all on his own?

[Shockwave]

Now that we are 70 or so years after his reign, and most who had to deal with him are dead, how will he be remembered?  What I wonder, is that will he eventually just be remembered as a conqueror, or will the atrocities he committed keep with his legacy?  Will he be remembered with the likes of Napoleon and Julius Caesar , or something all on his own?

He's still pretty much remembered as Satan.
His legacy will probably dull with time, especially when the next genocidal madman gains control of some powerful country. History ebbs and flows, and history repeats.
The next Hitler will be the new "Satan", and he'll just be another genocidal douche in the anals of history.

[OzmO]

Now that we are 70 or so years after his reign, and most who had to deal with him are dead, how will he be remembered?  What I wonder, is that will he eventually just be remembered as a conqueror, or will the atrocities he committed keep with his legacy?  Will he be remembered with the likes of Napoleon and Julius Caesar , or something all on his own?

He'll be remembered as a fucking idiot.

-  Started a 2 front war
-  Couldn't make up his mind between Stalingrad and Moscow
-  Ignored the Russian winter
-  Listened to Goring regarding Dunkirk
-  Lacked the will to continue in the battle of Brittan
-  Insisted the Me-262 be a bomber
-  Opted to make too expensive impractical tanks for his situation
-  Didn't give his generals the power to move certain divisions where in one such incident could have turned the tide on D-day

the list goes on and on.

[Hugo Chavez]

Now that we are 70 or so years after his reign, and most who had to deal with him are dead, how will he be remembered?  What I wonder, is that will he eventually just be remembered as a conqueror, or will the atrocities he committed keep with his legacy?  Will he be remembered with the likes of Napoleon and Julius Caesar , or something all on his own?

It depends solely on shit that is very politically incorrect to talk about.

[24KT]

It depends solely on shit that is very politically incorrect to talk about.

Was that a grammatical error?
Did you really mean to say "that is" ?
Are you sure you didn't instead mean "who are"  ? 

[Shockwave]

He'll be remembered as a fucking idiot.

-  Started a 2 front war
-  Couldn't make up his mind between Stalingrad and Moscow
-  Ignored the Russian winter
-  Listened to Goring regarding Dunkirk
-  Lacked the will to continue in the battle of Brittan
-  Insisted the Me-262 be a bomber
-  Opted to make too expensive impractical tanks for his situation
-  Didn't give his generals the power to move certain divisions where in one such incident could have turned the tide on D-day

the list goes on and on.

This pretty much goes without saying.
Nice drop on the Me-262 info. Not well known fact.
Fucking idiot wouldnt listen to any of his military advisors, ever. Personally decided, against advisement, that the ME-262, a fighter that could fly right by our fighter escorts and knock our bombers out of the sky, no, he decided it was more important to strike back at the Allies with high speed bombers rather than defend his own soil.

I think idiocy goes without saying.

[GigantorX]

This pretty much goes without saying.
Nice drop on the Me-262 info. Not well known fact.
Fucking idiot wouldnt listen to any of his military advisors, ever. Personally decided, against advisement, that the ME-262, a fighter that could fly right by our fighter escorts and knock our bombers out of the sky, no, he decided it was more important to strike back at the Allies with high speed bombers rather than defend his own soil.

I think idiocy goes without saying.

You could also throw the Ardennes Offensive on there as well. He threw pretty much his last haymaker at the West in a futile assault that wasted whatever fighting strength Germany had left. He should have thrown that against the Soviets to let the West have time to take Berlin. Or at best stopped the Russians as their supply lines were stretched to the breaking point and even they were going to be having manpower problems soon.

You could also say he started a 3 front war. East-West-Africa/Italy.

[Shockwave]

You could also throw the Ardennes Offensive on there as well. He threw pretty much his last haymaker at the West in a futile assault that wasted whatever fighting strength Germany had left. He should have thrown that against the Soviets to let the West have time to take Berlin. Or at best stopped the Russians as their supply lines were stretched to the breaking point and even they were going to be having manpower problems soon.

You could also say he started a 3 front war. East-West-Africa/Italy.

Yeah, Hitler pretty much rates number one on the recent history list of incompetent Commander's in Chief.

[Irongrip400]

He'll be remembered as a fucking idiot.

-  Started a 2 front war
-  Couldn't make up his mind between Stalingrad and Moscow
-  Ignored the Russian winter
-  Listened to Goring regarding Dunkirk
-  Lacked the will to continue in the battle of Brittan
-  Insisted the Me-262 be a bomber
-  Opted to make too expensive impractical tanks for his situation
-  Didn't give his generals the power to move certain divisions where in one such incident could have turned the tide on D-day

the list goes on and on.

I see you e done your homework. Are you military by chance?  Yes, he should've smashed the allies at Dunkirk, but hesitated because he thought Goering could bring them down with his Luftwaffe.  Attacking the soviets was a huge problem, but he could've won it had he not gone to yugoslavia first. And declaring war on the US when Japan wouldn't declare war on the Russians was a mistake too.

[GigantorX]

I see you e done your homework. Are you military by chance?  Yes, he should've smashed the allies at Dunkirk, but hesitated because he thought Goering could bring them down with his Luftwaffe.  Attacking the soviets was a huge problem, but he could've won it had he not gone to yugoslavia first. And declaring war on the US when Japan wouldn't declare war on the Russians was a mistake too.

It was, sure, the Eastern borders were secure but he did anyways and had chances to finish the Soviets off but failed to make the correct strategic and tactical decisions.

In that regard:
- His orders to fight to the death in Stalingrad and losing Paulus and the 6th army was a huge mistake.
-Listening to Goering (About anything) and agreeing to do the disastrous airlift to an encircled 6th army instead of sending an actual relief column was a big mistake.
-Operation Citadel/Zitadel was in-reality a draw but he wasted more men, material, fuel and those shiny new Panthers and Tigers on it for no gain.
-Having Italians and Romanians guard the flank for the 6th Army during Stalingrad was a really bad move, no armor, poor training and they were smashed by the Soviets which doomed Gen/Field Marshall Paulus.
-Choosing Operation Barbarossa to begin before securing the Suez and the M.E. oil fields was, again, the wrong move.
-Choosing to begin the bombings of cities as terror attacks during the air war over Britain instead of continuing to pound the RAF airfields, factories and radar stations. Hitler had the RAF on the ropes during this time and ready to break. The British bomb Berlin, Hitler gets emotional and the rest is history. This was a bad decision in a long line of bad decisions fueled by his mental weakness and emotions.

[OzmO]

I see you e done your homework. Are you military by chance?  Yes, he should've smashed the allies at Dunkirk, but hesitated because he thought Goering could bring them down with his Luftwaffe.  Attacking the soviets was a huge problem, but he could've won it had he not gone to yugoslavia first. And declaring war on the US when Japan wouldn't declare war on the Russians was a mistake too.

No, WW2 has always been an interest of mine.   I prolly have 50+ books on it.  Hitler had the best trained and most powerful army on earth and wouldn't listen to his generals.  If he would have prepped for the Russian winter and made a b-line to Moscow, taking it would have led to the collapse of Russia.

I think, Credit Richard Sorge for being the spy who informed the Russians that Japan had no interest in attacking Russia and the fact that Russia beat the crap out of them in a earlier battle. 

But I credit Hitler for the brilliance and brutalilty of taking power and manipulating an entire nation into what was thought of as a righteous war

[Shockwave]

It was, sure, the Eastern borders were secure but he did anyways and had chances to finish the Soviets off but failed to make the correct strategic and tactical decisions.

In that regard:
- His orders to fight to the death in Stalingrad and losing Paulus and the 6th army was a huge mistake.
-Listening to Goering (About anything) and agreeing to do the disastrous airlift to an encircled 6th army instead of sending an actual relief column was a big mistake.
-Operation Citadel/Zitadel was in-reality a draw but he wasted more men, material, fuel and those shiny new Panthers and Tigers on it for no gain.
-Having Italians and Romanians guard the flank for the 6th Army during Stalingrad was a really bad move, no armor, poor training and they were smashed by the Soviets which doomed Gen/Field Marshall Paulus.
-Choosing Operation Barbarossa to begin before securing the Suez and the M.E. oil fields was, again, the wrong move.
-Choosing to begin the bombings of cities as terror attacks during the air war over Britain instead of continuing to pound the RAF airfields, factories and radar stations. Hitler had the RAF on the ropes during this time and ready to break. The British bomb Berlin, Hitler gets emotional and the rest is history. This was a bad decision in a long line of bad decisions fueled by his mental weakness and emotions.

Agree.
He was a politican, not a military commander, and he paid the price for his arrogance by not listening to those that knew what they were talking about.
His arrogance and lack of ability to control his emotions was his downfall.

[Irongrip400]

No, WW2 has always been an interest of mine.   I prolly have 50+ books on it.  Hitler had the best trained and most powerful army on earth and wouldn't listen to his generals.  If he would have prepped for the Russian winter and made a b-line to Moscow, taking it would have led to the collapse of Russia.

I think, Credit Richard Sorge for being the spy who informed the Russians that Japan had no interest in attacking Russia and the fact that Russia beat the crap out of them in a earlier battle. 

But I credit Hitler for the brilliance and brutalilty of taking power and manipulating an entire nation into what was thought of as a righteous war

Which books? I have rise and fall of the third reich, Patton and Rommel , knights cross and a book called world war two by Keegan. Let me know what else I need to read, as well as any world war 1 books.

[Dos Equis]

His legacy is and always should be:  an evil mass-murderer.

[OzmO]

Which books? I have rise and fall of the third reich, Patton and Rommel , knights cross and a book called world war two by Keegan. Let me know what else I need to read, as well as any world war 1 books.

Here's some of them, (I didn't put the authors but you should be able to get them all on Amazon, except Hitler Moves East cuase its pretty old)

**A Time of Trumpets
**The battle of Kurst
Citizen soldier
**D-Day (Ambrose)
D-Day (Beevor) just bought it this weekend
**Fall of Berlin
**Hitler Moves East 1941-1943 (Paul Carrell)
Armageddon in Stalingrad Vo. 2
Dirty little secrets of WW2
Tigers in the mud
War as we knew it
Hitler's Panzers
tigers in Action
Panzer Tactics
Tank rider
**the Battle of the Bulge (Hugh Cole)

The with ** i strongly recommend.  the book "dirty little secrets of WW2" is a great bathroom reader.

[GigantorX]

Here's some of them, (I didn't put the authors but you should be able to get them all on Amazon, except Hitler Moves East cuase its pretty old)

**A Time of Trumpets
**The battle of Kurst
Citizen soldier
**D-Day (Ambrose)
D-Day (Beevor) just bought it this weekend
**Fall of Berlin
**Hitler Moves East 1941-1943 (Paul Carrell)
Armageddon in Stalingrad Vo. 2
Dirty little secrets of WW2
Tigers in the mud
War as we knew it
Hitler's Panzers
tigers in Action
Panzer Tactics
Tank rider
**the Battle of the Bulge (Hugh Cole)

The with ** i strongly recommend.  the book "dirty little secrets of WW2" is a great bathroom reader.

Add in:

-Ardennes '44
-With the Old Breed

[OzmO]

Add in:

-Ardennes '44
-With the Old Breed

"The Pacific" on HBO got me to buy that one.

I'll check out Ardennes 44

[andreisdaman]

He's still pretty much remembered as Satan.
His legacy will probably dull with time, especially when the next genocidal madman gains control of some powerful country. History ebbs and flows, and history repeats.
The next Hitler will be the new "Satan", and he'll just be another genocidal douche in the anals of history.

I actually think Hitler will stand the test of time as the ultimate badguy......his mystique and his hypnotic personality are what separate him from the other conquerors...he had a whole philosophy behind what he was doing ....it wasn't just destroy, maim, and conquer

[Irongrip400]

I actually think Hitler will stand the test of time as the ultimate badguy......his mystique and his hypnotic personality are what separate him from the other conquerors...he had a whole philosophy behind what he was doing ....it wasn't just destroy, maim, and conquer

Not to start an argument, but I believe he was as bad as the others, we just have what he did on film. I think the age of seeing battle and war on the tv or big screen really makes things worse, because you see it first hand. But yeah, I do see what you're saying about him as the person, that he was a great orator.

[andreisdaman]

Not to start an argument, but I believe he was as bad as the others, we just have what he did on film. I think the age of seeing battle and war on the tv or big screen really makes things worse, because you see it first hand. But yeah, I do see what you're saying about him as the person, that he was a great orator.

point taken.....agreed....

[OzmO]

Stalin, Pol Pot, both pretty dam evil too.

[howardroark]

I actually think Hitler will stand the test of time as the ultimate badguy......his mystique and his hypnotic personality are what separate him from the other conquerors...he had a whole philosophy behind what he was doing ....it wasn't just destroy, maim, and conquer

You could say the same of Stalin, Mao, and other communist dictators. Marxism is more than just an ideology; it is a philosophy. In fact, Marxism is a far more developed philosophy than whatever Hitler practiced. Hitler really was just a power-hungry fool who pimped the parts of Nietzsche that suited him. Hardly a "whole philosophy."

Note: The very foundation of fascism is a rejection of intellectualism and objective reality. So the likes of Hitler and Mussolini were closer to irrationalist mystics than philosophers.

[andreisdaman]

You could say the same of Stalin, Mao, and other communist dictators. Marxism is more than just an ideology; it is a philosophy. In fact, Marxism is a far more developed philosophy than whatever Hitler practiced. Hitler really was just a power-hungry fool who pimped the parts of Nietzsche that suited him. Hardly a "whole philosophy."

Note: The very foundation of fascism is a rejection of intellectualism and objective reality. So the likes of Hitler and Mussolini were closer to irrationalist mystics than philosophers.

good post...point taken

[24KT]

He'll be remembered as a fucking idiot.

-  Started a 2 front war
[...]the list goes on and on.

{blink}{blink}  You mean the way Bush and his neo-con buddies did in Iraq & Afghanistan? ...cheered on by the American people?

Is that what you mean by a 2 front war?

[GigantorX]

{blink}{blink}  You mean the way Bush and his neo-con buddies did in Iraq & Afghanistan? ...cheered on by the American people?

Is that what you mean by a 2 front war?

Bush and his neo-con buddies?

So it was just Bush and his Neo-Con buddies voting in Congress to authorize war powers?

Hmmmm, interesting, I didn't know our government worked that way.