1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud

[chaos]

If you inflate the value of your home by 2x, do you think the bank will take your word for it and give you a bigger loan?! Fuck no, they will have their own numbers. Ultimately the banks signed off on his valuations. And he did not personally do those valuations. He probably had staff or accountants come up with it. And so what if they were overvalued, the banks signed off on it and made money due to the interest he paid.

Kind of the point. Does anyone here think Trump or the people running his organizations are unique in that? Democrats see every headline against Trump as a "gotcha" moment. Very lackluster.

[LurkerNoMore]

Maybe if he turned over all the accounting, financial statements, and “numbers” way back when they requested them, he would better evidence in favor. Or at least with his testimony a believable explanation for the differences.

His circus, his monkeys. 

[chaos]

Not at all.  I am just not drinking that kool-aid you drink.   

Think about this:

Judge Engoron's ruling was a victory for New York Attorney General Letitia James in her lawsuit against Trump. His decision effectively decided that no trial was needed to determine that the former president had fraudulently secured favorable terms on loans and insurance deals.

James has argued that Trump inflated the value of his properties by as much as $2.2 billion and is seeking a penalty of about $250 million.

The judge's order will not dissolve Trump's company but will impact its operations. Trump can appeal.

The trial will determine the size of the penalty Trump will face.



dude looks creeepy


The evidence must be pretty solid for him to do that.

If not it will be overturned in an appeal.   

I am not making a determination of guilt here.  I don't have it all in front of me now and I am not a lawyer, detective or judge. 

But it doesn't look good for him.  And no amount of whining or mar-go this and naive that will change anything.

Are we to believe there is no political influence happening with these cases against Trump?
I know, "post the proof"  I don't need to prove anything about a question. But I won't blindly follow a media or a legal system that has spent the last 6 years trying to destroy the man.

[Dos Equis]

Sure but I doubt that all the other evidence stacked in this case isn’t nearly as bogus as the Mar-go thing appears to be. Like I said earlier the case doesn’t hinge on Mar-go.  And it hinges on much more than I listed. 

But all that will come out on the appeal if there is any merit to it.

You're assuming the judge's spectacular mistake is isolated.  I'm not.

[OzmO]

You're assuming the judge's spectacular mistake is isolated.  I'm not.

It will come to surface.    I think there is too much against him to matter.  But I could be incorrectly assuming that. 

[Dos Equis]

It will come to surface.    I think there is too much against him to matter.  But I could be incorrectly assuming that.

I will not give these people the benefit of the doubt.  They have lost their minds trying to destroy this man.  And he is still either competitive or leading in the polls.  It's making them even crazier.  I think if they take him down we will lose our country. 

Have you talked to people with TDS in real life?  They are unhinged.  They don't care about the Constitution, evidence, fairness, etc., so long as whatever happens gets rid of Trump.  I've never seen anything like it. 

[OzmO]

I will not give these people the benefit of the doubt.  They have lost their minds trying to destroy this man.  And he is still either competitive or leading in the polls.  It's making them even crazier.  I think if they take him down we will lose our country. 

Have you talked to people with TDS in real life?  They are unhinged.  They don't care about the Constitution, evidence, fairness, etc., so long as whatever happens gets rid of Trump.  I've never seen anything like it.

No lol. Never talked to anyone with TDS in real life but some of my friends from high school are crazy Trump supporters calling for an armed revolution and the hanging and execution of Biden and Obama.   Most peeps I know and interact with are on both sides but are reasonable people. 

For me it’s the legal system that s allows a defense and the full examination and challenging of the evidence. Simply dismissing it as a bias Judge, DA or what ever doesn’t hold up because of that.  He is not getting tried in a secret courtroom or being denied his rights.  He has every chance to prove his innocence.   It’s so likely that there is too much stacked against him. 

[Dos Equis]

No lol. Never talked to anyone with TDS in real life but some of my friends from high school are crazy Trump supporters calling for an armed revolution and the hanging and execution of Biden and Obama.   Most peeps I know and interact with are on both sides but are reasonable people. 

For me it’s the legal system that s allows a defense and the full examination and challenging of the evidence. Simply dismissing it as a bias Judge, DA or what ever doesn’t hold up because of that.  He is not getting tried in a secret courtroom or being denied his rights.  He has every chance to prove his innocence.   It’s so likely that there is too much stacked against him.

If only it were that simple.  Take the "rape"/defamation case Trump just went through.  He had a trial in front of a judge and jury.  No secret courtroom, etc.  But if you look at the context, it's straight up fascist.  The claim was over 20 years old.  The "victim" worked with the New York legislature to reopen decades old claims for alleged rape victims, for the sole purpose of targeting Trump.  She then hired a lawyer, who was bankrolled by wealthy Democrat donor.  They then present his case to a jury where about 90 percent of the pool consists of Trump haters.  The jury found him liable for some kind sexual misconduct, despite the fact the woman could not remember the precise location or even the year when this alleged assault happened.  It's a joke. 

This "fraud" stuff is no different.  The prosecutor has dedicated her career to getting Trump and is open about it.  They refused to charge him with a crime, because it's BS and because there are no victims.  Trump borrowed money and repaid it.  The lenders are not complaining.  This whole thing is friggin stupid. 

All of this stuff is designed to injure Trump and make him unelectable. 

[Coach is Back!]

Realtors: Mar-a-Lago's $18M Valuation 'Delusional'

A New York judge’s lowball valuation for Donald Trump’s real estate properties has sent shockwaves through real estate and political circles, the New York Post reports.

Insiders are especially flummoxed by Manhattan Supreme Court Justice Arthur Engoron’s $18 million assessment for Trump’s 20-acre oceanfront Mar-a-Lago golf club in Palm Beach.

“It’s utterly delusional to think that property is only worth $18 million,” one prominent Palm Beach, Fla., real estate broker told the Post on the condition of anonymity.

“If that property were on the market today, I would list it at $300 minimum … at least. He also has the separate golf course minutes away,” the realtor added.

Engoron ruled that the former president inflated the value of his wealth. His ruling—made without a jury under the guise the “facts” were unequivocal and none was needed—holds Trump and the Trump Organizations liable for fraud, mirroring the central allegation in New York Attorney General Letitia James’ lawsuit against the 45th president of the United States, who made a name for himself with blockbuster New York real estate deals.

Engoron’s 35-page verdict cites a Palm Beach Assessor valuation for the property of $18 million to $28 million between the years 2011 and 2021.

A two-acre wooded lot five minutes away from Mar-a-Lago is currently listed for $150 million, and another, 2.3-acre plot is on the market for $200 million.

In March, Rush Limbaugh’s widow, Kathryn Adams Limbaugh, sold his Palm Beach estate on 2.7 acres for $155 million.

Purchased in 1985 for $10 million by Trump, the 128-room mansion with a 20,000-square-foot ballroom was appraised for $160 million in 2018 by Forbes.

Built between 1924 and 1927 for businesswoman and socialite Marjorie Merriweather Post, Mar-a-Lago is a National Historic Landmark.

The judge and AG James allege Trump exaggerated the value of his business and properties in order to obtain more favorable bank loans and insurance.

https://www.newsmax.com/finance/streettalk/donald-trump-fraud-lawsuit-mar-a-lago/2023/09/27/id/1136112/

[chaos]

For me it’s the legal system that s allows a defense and the full examination and challenging of the evidence. Simply dismissing it as a bias Judge, DA or what ever doesn’t hold up because of that.

So question nothing because a judge said so? You realize judges are people too right?

[OzmO]

So question nothing because a judge said so? You realize judges are people too right?

No not at all.  I am saying that the judge's decision will fall under scrutiny and because there is an opposition to advocate for the defendant, the Judges decision will be examined. 

[OzmO]

If only it were that simple.  Take the "rape"/defamation case Trump just went through.  He had a trial in front of a judge and jury.  No secret courtroom, etc.  But if you look at the context, it's straight up fascist.  The claim was over 20 years old.  The "victim" worked with the New York legislature to reopen decades old claims for alleged rape victims, for the sole purpose of targeting Trump.  She then hired a lawyer, who was bankrolled by wealthy Democrat donor.  They then present his case to a jury where about 90 percent of the pool consists of Trump haters.  The jury found him liable for some kind sexual misconduct, despite the fact the woman could not remember the precise location or even the year when this alleged assault happened.  It's a joke. 

Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby had similar charges when people from decades back came forward.   Don't forget we are talking about a guy here who on tape said he likes to grab women's pussies which in some respects equates to sexual assault.  Giving Trump the benefit of the doubt here; anyone who is trying to do something that shakes up the establishment is going to be a target and if there are things he may have done in the past and in the present that make him vulnerable. That's on him.   Furthermore, shame on the lawyer for allowing 90 percent Trump haters on the jury.  Did the lawyer not manage jury selection well or was the entire pool filled with 90% Trump haters?

This "fraud" stuff is no different.  The prosecutor has dedicated her career to getting Trump and is open about it.  They refused to charge him with a crime, because it's BS and because there are no victims.  Trump borrowed money and repaid it.  The lenders are not complaining.  This whole thing is friggin stupid.

All of this stuff is designed to injure Trump and make him unelectable.

 

In my mind, if a person commits fraud and benefits from it, it doesn't matter if no one is hurt.  I am really disturbed about how they are going about this in the area of the corporate death penalty.  Fine him, sure, but seizing his business really concerns me and seems fascist/commy or whatever.   

I don't like Trump.  I don't think he is good for America.  But I don't think (at the moment) a state or federal government should have the right to do this.

[Soul Crusher]

[Dos Equis]

Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby had similar charges when people from decades back came forward.   Don't forget we are talking about a guy here who on tape said he likes to grab women's pussies which in some respects equates to sexual assault.  Giving Trump the benefit of the doubt here; anyone who is trying to do something that shakes up the establishment is going to be a target and if there are things he may have done in the past and in the present that make him vulnerable. That's on him.   Furthermore, shame on the lawyer for allowing 90 percent Trump haters on the jury.  Did the lawyer not manage jury selection well or was the entire pool filled with 90% Trump haters?
 

In my mind, if a person commits fraud and benefits from it, it doesn't matter if no one is hurt.  I am really disturbed about how they are going about this in the area of the corporate death penalty.  Fine him, sure, but seizing his business really concerns me and seems fascist/commy or whatever.   

I don't like Trump.  I don't think he is good for America.  But I don't think (at the moment) a state or federal government should have the right to do this.

Weinstein and Cosby were not the same.  Weinstein was unquestionably a predator.  I think Cosby did some of what he was accused of, but I had a problem with the fact some of the allegations were so old.  But neither one of them had a situation like Trump, where the "victim" worked with Democrats in the state legilslature to change the law for the sole purpose of targeting Trump.  Then being bankrolled by a Democrat donor. Then not having details about the alleged rape.  She couldn't even identity the year that it happened.  Come on now. 

Regarding the jury pool, when the population is made up of 90 percent Trump haters, the odds of having Trump haters on the jury are pretty high.

There is no question that rape case was a political hit job.

Regarding fraud, I hear what you are saying.  I'm not trying to downplay the significance of fraud.  I'm saying fraud requires a victim and there is no victim. 

I keep saying this, but if we allow these zealots to destroy Trump using the tactics they have used, we are finished.  And I say this not as a "Trump supporter," but as an American. 

[OzmO]

Weinstein and Cosby were not the same.  Weinstein was unquestionably a predator.  I think Cosby did some of what he was accused of, but I had a problem with the fact some of the allegations were so old.  But neither one of them had a situation like Trump, where the "victim" worked with Democrats in the state legilslature to change the law for the sole purpose of targeting Trump.  Then being bankrolled by a Democrat donor. Then not having details about the alleged rape.  She couldn't even identity the year that it happened.  Come on now. 

Regarding the jury pool, when the population is made up of 90 percent Trump haters, the odds of having Trump haters on the jury are pretty high.

There is no question that rape case was a political hit job.

Regarding fraud, I hear what you are saying.  I'm not trying to downplay the significance of fraud.  I'm saying fraud requires a victim and there is no victim. 

I keep saying this, but if we allow these zealots to destroy Trump using the tactics they have used, we are finished.  And I say this not as a "Trump supporter," but as an American.

I didn't pay much attention to that case.  What law was changed?

Personally Ithink its kind of crazy to wait 20 years to come forward and then it becomes word vs word.

I asked this of ChatGPT:

"If I misrepresent my financial status to receive a loan from a bank have I committed a crime?" 

ChatGPT:
I'm not a legal expert, but it's important to know that intentionally misrepresenting your financial status to receive a loan from a bank is generally considered fraud. In many jurisdictions, this is a criminal offense that can result in severe penalties, including fines and imprisonment. Laws can vary by jurisdiction, but the act of knowingly providing false information to a financial institution with the intent to deceive is usually taken very seriously. If you find yourself in such a situation, it's crucial to consult with a legal professional for advice tailored to your specific circumstances.

Saying there isn't a victim here and therefore in essence saying "no harm no foul", does not apply.  If he committed fraud he committed a crime.

[Dos Equis]

I didn't pay much attention to that case.  What law was changed?

Personally Ithink its kind of crazy to wait 20 years to come forward and then it becomes word vs word.

I asked this of ChatGPT:

"If I misrepresent my financial status to receive a loan from a bank have I committed a crime?" 

ChatGPT:
I'm not a legal expert, but it's important to know that intentionally misrepresenting your financial status to receive a loan from a bank is generally considered fraud. In many jurisdictions, this is a criminal offense that can result in severe penalties, including fines and imprisonment. Laws can vary by jurisdiction, but the act of knowingly providing false information to a financial institution with the intent to deceive is usually taken very seriously. If you find yourself in such a situation, it's crucial to consult with a legal professional for advice tailored to your specific circumstances.

Saying there isn't a victim here and therefore in essence saying "no harm no foul", does not apply.  If he committed fraud he committed a crime.

I posted about Jean Carroll getting the law changed here:

So a Democrat private citizen worked with a Democrat state legislature to pass a law targeting a single American citizen (a Republican), filed a lawsuit against that private citizen, funded by a Democrat donor, tried in front of a likely Democrat jury.  Crazy stuff.

“The fact that New York passed this law, the Adult Survivors Act,” CNN’s Poppy Harlow said. “They passed it just a few years ago. Were it not for that law, you never would have been able to bring this case.”

“Exactly. This would never – I would never have this window, this year of having the ability to bring a lawsuit for rape. Robbie can explain it better,” Carroll responded.

“E. Jean actually helped to get that law passed,” Carroll’s lawyer, Roberta Kaplan, said. “It passed last year. We filed – it was Thanksgiving Day, the first day you could sue.

E. Jean Carroll Admits She Helped New York Dems Change Law So She Could Sue Trump
BRIANNA LYMAN
NEWS AND COMMENTARY WRITER
May 10, 2023
https://dailycaller.com/2023/05/10/trump-accuser-e-jean-carroll-adult-survivors-act/?utm_medium=email&pnespid=tKR7FHscJqZC16Wbpz_7FY3U5gK2DMVoNvGym_c0qB9m3Ia0H3ZUEmcTtYJr38vkNdDxk3rlvg

Regarding fraud, if Trump committed a crime then why isn't he being prosecuted for that crime?  Because they knew they didn't have a victim.  They refused to prosecute him and instead filed a civil claim. 

The victims in this alleged fraud would have been the lenders.  But the lenders loaned money, Trump repaid the loans, and the lenders are not complaining.

[OzmO]

Regarding fraud, if Trump committed a crime then why isn't he being prosecuted for that crime?  Because they knew they didn't have a victim.  They refused to prosecute him and instead filed a civil claim. 

The victims in this alleged fraud would have been the lenders.  But the lenders loaned money, Trump repaid the loans, and the lenders are not complaining.

This:

Trump made an argument, which the judge framed this way: “Defendants’ stance is, practically speaking, that they may submit false SFCs so long as the recipients know, from their own due diligence, that the information was false.” Moreover, they claimed “that overvaluations of two hundred million dollars are immaterial,” because the banks made millions in interest.

The judge’s  response: “As has been explained to defendants many times, in many legal proceedings, and in painstaking detail, ‘where, as here, there is a claim based on fraudulent activity [under Executive Law 63(12)], disgorgement may be available as an equitable remedy, notwithstanding the absence of loss to individuals or independent claims for restitution.’”

New York’s legislature passed this law io “guarantee a marketplace that adheres to standards of fairness.” 

What this means is the judge is clarifying that under the specific law cited (Executive Law 63(12)), the state can seek to have profits gained through fraudulent activity returned ("disgorged"), even if no individual person has filed a claim for restitution or suffered a demonstrable financial loss. This is significant because it sets a lower bar for the state to seek this particular remedy, making it easier to hold fraudulent actors accountable.

Basically your BS can get in you in trouble in New York

[Grape Ape]

I haven't paid attention this other than hearing some news blurbs.

If the judge said Mar A Lago (or however it's spelled) is worth 18M, but Trump gets real estate experts to change the value, does this go away?

I know Trump said it's 300M because he could get a Saudi  to buy it instantly if he wanted, but have seen other things saying the 18M is laughably low, as comps in the area with only 1/2 acre have sold for more.

[Dos Equis]

Trump made an argument, which the judge framed this way: “Defendants’ stance is, practically speaking, that they may submit false SFCs so long as the recipients know, from their own due diligence, that the information was false.” Moreover, they claimed “that overvaluations of two hundred million dollars are immaterial,” because the banks made millions in interest.

The judge’s  response: “As has been explained to defendants many times, in many legal proceedings, and in painstaking detail, ‘where, as here, there is a claim based on fraudulent activity [under Executive Law 63(12)], disgorgement may be available as an equitable remedy, notwithstanding the absence of loss to individuals or independent claims for restitution.’”

New York’s legislature passed this law io “guarantee a marketplace that adheres to standards of fairness.”

Disgorgement of what?  The money they repaid, with interest? 

[Dos Equis]

I haven't paid attention this other than hearing some news blurbs.

If the judge said Mar A Lago (or however it's spelled) is worth 18M, but Trump gets real estate experts to change the value, does this go away?

I know Trump said it's 300M because he could get a Saudi  to buy it instantly if he wanted, but have seen other things saying the 18M is laughably low, as comps in the area with only 1/2 acre have sold for more.

The judge apparently relied on tax assessed value.  Market value is determined largely by comps, not tax assessed value. 

[OzmO]

Disgorgement of what?  The money they repaid, with interest?

The loan amount?

[Dos Equis]

The loan amount?

The loan amount that was repaid with interest?  Man this is some seriously stupid stuff. 

[Irongrip400]

I don’t understand how some folks don’t realize this is all political to keep him from running again. Nothing more. Whether you like the guy or not, this is done for only one reason. It sucks because it will only keep the tit for tat going.

[Dos Equis]

I don’t understand how some folks don’t realize this is all political to keep him from running again. Nothing more. Whether you like the guy or not, this is done for only one reason. It sucks because it will only keep the tit for tat going.

Exactly.  That's what I keep saying.  They used law enforcement agencies to target him with the Russia hoax.  They are using state prosecutors to target him.  Biden's DOJ is targeting him.  All designed to make him unelectable.  If he had faded into the private sector after 2020, none of this would be happening. 

I was really hoping DeSantis would get the nomination, but after all this crap, I am rooting for Trump.  At this point, he has to win.  We cannot allow this Banana Republic stuff to succeed.

[Primemuscle]

I will not give these people the benefit of the doubt.  They have lost their minds trying to destroy this man.  And he is still either competitive or leading in the polls.  It's making them even crazier.  I think if they take him down we will lose our country. 

Have you talked to people with TDS in real life?  They are unhinged.  They don't care about the Constitution, evidence, fairness, etc., so long as whatever happens gets rid of Trump.  I've never seen anything like it.

Copied from the classic often used Trump line. “problems ... the likes of which perhaps we’ve never seen." "We're doing numbers like we've never seen." "...at levels that nobody has ever seen before."

Trump also has been known to say, "Everything in life is luck." Currently, it looks like his good luck has run out.

My how times have changed. Remember when he said this in 1990, "Well, if I ever ran for office, I'd do better as a Democrat than as a Republican - and that's not because I'd be more liberal, because I'm conservative. But the working guy would elect me. He likes me. When I walk down the street, those cabbies start yelling out their windows."