No such thing as an Atheist?

[loco]

Again!  to tell me that God did this because of child sacrifice is ridiculous when you consider the 300 million other people who were all doing as you suggested.

I didn't say that God did it because of child sacrifice.  God did it because they built and worshiped the calf.  What I was saying is that you can't bring up "religious freedom" into this and start throwing "Buddhists, Muslim, Jews, Hindus," into the discussion because God did condemn human sacrifice and the worship of the calf did involve human sacrifice.

Deuteronomy 12:31
"in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods."
 
2 Kings 17:14-17
"But they would not listen and were as stiff-necked as their fathers, who did not trust in the LORD their God. 15 They rejected his decrees and the covenant he had made with their fathers and the warnings he had given them. They followed worthless idols and themselves became worthless. They imitated the nations around them although the LORD had ordered them, "Do not do as they do," and they did the things the LORD had forbidden them to do. 
They forsook all the commands of the LORD their God and made for themselves two idols cast in the shape of calves, and an Asherah pole. They bowed down to all the starry hosts, and they worshiped Baal. 17 They sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire."

Deuteronomy 18:9
"Don't you dare sacrifice your son or daughter in the fire"

The people of the united states gave them the authority. 

Really?  You?  You and who else gave the authority to kill a human being for committing a so called "treason"?  Who are you and those others to decide what is treason and to decide who committed it and to take their life?

All of which directly produces harm.

So a person who commits treason directly commits murder?  They haven't killed anyone, yet they are put to death(murdered?).

As it happens they get punished. 

They get killed(murdered?).

by joining an organization in the USA you do not get punished until you commit a crime that produces victims.   

OzmO, this has nothing to do with joining an organization.  I dropped that one the minute you told me that joining a murderous terrorist group in the US is not a crime.  I never said that joining a group is treason.  That is exactly why I posted the definition of what is treason in the US.

These people were not doing that.  They were following a religion......like Buddists, Muslim, Jews, Hindus, etc....   Are you justified under God's example to kill all of them?

No, not like "Buddhists, Muslim, Jews, Hindus"  You are actually insulting all these religions:

Moloch and Malcom are the same deity. Thus, the tabernacle or Sukkoth was understood to be that of Moloch and the star was of Raiphan as at the translation of the LXX or Malcom and Chiun from the Aramaic (cf. Lamsa's translation of the Peshitta). We are dealing with the fertility rites of Moloch and the Raiphan system. This fertility system has underpinned Israelite idolatry from the Exodus, through the kings and at the time of Amos and right after the captivity to the time of the apostles.
 
The Minotaur is the same being worshipped in the same way as the god Moloch or Malcom. It is the bull cult transferred to the crescent moon and involved human sacrifice (cf. Frazer The Golden Bough , Macmillan Press, 1976 print, iv, pp. 70-75).
 
The symbolism surrounding this calf system at Sinai, from Sin as progenitor, ties into the earliest and most primitive sacrificial system employing also temple and cult prostitution on a widespread level. This is the reason the revelry was associated with the Golden Calf. By the invocation, Sin as moon-god represented by the calf, the three-fold or triune aspects of he and his offspring were invoked.
 
The calf was also a symbol of fertility in the nature religions of the ancient Near-East. These symbols were incorporated into the feasts of Israel by Jeroboam as two calves (cf. 1Kings 12:28; Hos. 8:5; fn. to Oxford Annotated Bible RSV, p. 109).
 
The worship at the tabernacle of Moloch or Chemosh, was prevalent at the time of the Exodus, as we see from the advice of Balaam to the Moabites, to cast a stumbling-block to the children of Israel.  The calf-headed Moloch or Malcom and the Minotaur both involved human sacrifice.

http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p222.html

Deuteronomy 12:31
"You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods."

[OzmO]

So they sacrificed their children in the fire?  Who did that?


Sacrifice has been a consistent thing in ancient religions, even with judism and indirectly with Christianity.


I agree with your thoughts on capital punishment being justice.  Like i said, when emotions are involved i'd feel different.  If i were to review the cases i'd get emotionally involved and want them dead.

But i still, at the core, i don't believe it's right to take another's life no matter what the reason.  God will deal with them in the after life.

[loco]

So they sacrificed their children in the fire?  Who did that?

Worshipers of false gods, idols such as Baal, etc.  Some disobedient people from Israel did too, when they followed these pagan religions.

Sacrifice has been a consistent thing in ancient religions, even with judism and indirectly with Christianity.

Animal sacrifice is part of Judaism, but human sacrifice was never a part of it and God did not approve of it.

There is no human sacrifice in Christianity either, other than Jesus sacrificing himself for us, which comes from the sacrificial lamb in Judaism.  But Christian worship does not include animal or human sacrifice.

[OzmO]

Worshipers of false gods, idols such as Baal, etc.  Some disobedient people from Israel did too, when they followed these pagan religions.

Animal sacrifice is part of Judaism, but human sacrifice was never a part of it and God did not approve of it.

But did those people in exodus sacrifice their children?  So God killed them for something they hadn't done, but because others had?

That makes no sense.

[loco]

But did those people in exodus sacrifice their children?  So God killed them for something they hadn't done, but because others had?

That makes no sense.

I don't know if they did or not.  I believe they didn't because they didn't get a chance to before Moses got there in time.  But golden calf and bull images were widely worshiped by pagan religions in those days in Egypt and neighboring nations.  They required the sacrifice of children in their worship.  So those 3000 men either did sacrifice children or were about to.  Just because Moses got there in time to stop them doesn't mean that they are off the hook.

Either way, they were put to death mainly for disobeying God by making the idol and worshiping it, human sacrifice or not.  But their idol worship does include the sacrifice of children and they also were teaching their children by example to worship idols and to sacrifice children to them.

[Hustle Man]

But did those people in exodus sacrifice their children?  So God killed them for something they hadn't done, but because others had?

That makes no sense.

Isaiah 55:8
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.

[OzmO]

I don't know if they did or not.  I believe they didn't because they didn't get a chance to before Moses got there in time.  But golden calf and bull images were widely worshiped by pagan religions in those days in Egypt and neighboring nations.  They required the sacrifice of children in their worship.  So those 3000 men either did sacrifice children or were about to.  Just because Moses got there in time to stop them doesn't mean that they are off the hook.

Either way, they were put to death mainly for disobeying God by making the idol and worshiping it, human sacrifice or not.  But their idol worship does include the sacrifice of children and they also were teaching their children by example to worship idols and to sacrifice children to them.

Yes, i  see what you are saying.  but we don't punish people for what they might do, we punish them for what they did.  that kind of thinking can lead to horrendous acts of violence and suffering.

That's why it doesn't make sense.   Perhaps punish them for making a calf, but kill them? 

[Hustle Man]

Yes, i  see what you are saying.  but we don't punish people for what they might do, we punish them for what they did.  that kind of thinking can lead to horrendous acts of violence and suffering.

That's why it doesn't make sense.   Perhaps punish them for making a calf, but kill them? 

OzmO, rejoice in the fact that God is patient with this generation (anno domini) because nothing is new under the sun we deserve the same, BUT God has shown mercy on us all! He is giving us space to repent and answer the call!

[loco]

Yes, i  see what you are saying.  but we don't punish people for what they might do, we punish them for what they did.  that kind of thinking can lead to horrendous acts of violence and suffering.

That's why it doesn't make sense.   Perhaps punish them for making a calf, but kill them? 

And I see what you are saying, but my point with this is that their choice of worship does create an unwilling victim and it is detrimental to society.  These were evil men, as you can see, who less than two months after God Himself had saved them through many miracles and God Himself had spoken to them, turned their back on God and deliberately disobeying, fully knowing and fully understanding the consequences of their choice to disobey.

Look at the damage they did.  Fast forward into the not so distant future:

2 Kings 17:14-17
"But they would not listen and were as stiff-necked as their fathers, who did not trust in the LORD their God. 15 They rejected his decrees and the covenant he had made with their fathers and the warnings he had given them. They followed worthless idols and themselves became worthless. They imitated the nations around them although the LORD had ordered them, "Do not do as they do," and they did the things the LORD had forbidden them to do.  
They forsook all the commands of the LORD their God and made for themselves two idols cast in the shape of calves, and an Asherah pole. They bowed down to all the starry hosts, and they worshiped Baal. 17 They sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire."

[OzmO]

And I see what you are saying, but my point with this is that their choice of worship does create an unwilling victim and it is detrimental to society.  These were evil men, as you can see, who less than two months after God Himself had saved them through many miracles and God Himself had spoken to them, turned their back on God and deliberately disobeying, fully knowing and fully understanding the consequences of their choice to disobey.

Look at the damage they did.  Fast forward into the not so distant future:

2 Kings 17:14-17
"But they would not listen and were as stiff-necked as their fathers, who did not trust in the LORD their God. 15 They rejected his decrees and the covenant he had made with their fathers and the warnings he had given them. They followed worthless idols and themselves became worthless. They imitated the nations around them although the LORD had ordered them, "Do not do as they do," and they did the things the LORD had forbidden them to do. 
They forsook all the commands of the LORD their God and made for themselves two idols cast in the shape of calves, and an Asherah pole. They bowed down to all the starry hosts, and they worshiped Baal. 17 They sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire."

Did they?  Did they know they would be summarily murdered and still chose to do it?  I agree, they were doing something that did produce victims in light of what was happening, but their deaths were unwarranted.  Should we follow the same example with Atheists?   with republicans and democrats? With homosexuals?  With Muslims?  If i fart in a small room with other people there will be victims, but we must put what they did (calf worshipers) in perspective.

Punishing someone for what they might do is wrong.  We must allow people the opportunity to make mistakes and in turn learn form them and make the right choices.

Think about it.   

[loco]

Did they?  Did they know they would be summarily murdered and still chose to do it?  I agree, they were doing something that did produce victims in light of what was happening, but their deaths were unwarranted.  Should we follow the same example with Atheists?   with republicans and democrats? With homosexuals?  With Muslims?  If i fart in a small room with other people there will be victims, but we must put what they did (calf worshipers) in perspective.

Punishing someone for what they might do is wrong.  We must allow people the opportunity to make mistakes and in turn learn form them and make the right choices.

Think about it.   

OzmO, remember that these 3000 men heard the voice of God Himself commanding them not to make an idol and not to worship it, or they would be put to death, God told them.  They chose to die.

[OzmO]

OzmO, remember that these 3000 men heard the voice of God Himself commanding them not to make an idol and not to worship it, or they would be put to death, God told them.  They chose to die.

No.  Why would people do that?  They didn't "hear" god say that anyway.  there's obviously some part of the story that are being left out or we are not seeing some parts of it.

[Necrosis]

OzmO, rejoice in the fact that God is patient with this generation (anno domini) because nothing is new under the sun we deserve the same, BUT God has shown mercy on us all! He is giving us space to repent and answer the call!

dude you are clearly a gimmick...

your the biggest jeebus freak ive ever seen.

jonny apollo maybe?

[Hustle Man]

dude you are clearly a gimmick...

your the biggest jeebus freak ive ever seen.

jonny apollo maybe?

Now that's funny! You must know that God's children are referred to by him as "peculiar people" so thanks for the affirmation.

BTW who is jonny apollo?

[loco]

No.  Why would people do that? 

I don't know, but based on their situation and their actions, I would say because they were an evil people, not all of Israel, but these men in particular.

They didn't "hear" god say that anyway. 

All of Israel at that time did hear God speak.  They even said to Moses:

Exodus 20:18-19
18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die."

Die of fear?  I wonder why they were so afraid.  Probably because they were so evil that they could not bear the presence of God or the sound of God's voice.

Based on what I know about these 3000 men, I do not believe that what they did was good.  That is why I do not defend them and why I do not defend their actions.

there's obviously some part of the story that are being left out or we are not seeing some parts of it.

I don't believe that anything is being left out.  But if you really believe that some part of the story is being left out, why do you judge the Bible and why do you judge those of us who believe that the Bible is the word of God?  Shouldn't you at least get all the facts and find those parts of the story that you believe are being left out before judging?  And if you cannot find those parts of the story that you believe are missing, can you not conclude that you just don't know for sure if this is the word of God, rather than assure us that it isn't?

Like I said, I don't expect to change your mind on this.  I'm just explaining why I do not have any problems with God ordering the execution of these 3000 men.  They were given much more than you and I have ever been given, yet they insisted on turning their back on God and going back to idol worship which included sacrificing children and doing other detestable things.

[Butterbean]

OzmO, remember that these 3000 men heard the voice of God Himself commanding them not to make an idol and not to worship it, or they would be put to death, God told them.  They chose to die.

Ex 32:6 includes ...."Afterward they sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry." 

According to my study bible the Hebrew word for ""to indulge in revelry" suggests sex play.  (same word used in Gen 26:8 )  In light of the drinking and possible nakedness (Ex 32:25 kjv; 1 Cor 10: the scene likely became a drunken sex orgy."

So like loco said even if they weren't sacrificing people it's more than them "becoming insecure" and making an idol to worship.

They were told not to do it or die and they did it anyway.  If you told your child not to stick beans up his nose or he'd get a spanking...and then he stuck beans up his nose.....do you not give him the spanking?

[OzmO]

I don't know, but based on their situation and their actions, I would say because they were an evil people, not all of Israel, but these men in particular.

All of Israel at that time did hear God speak.  They even said to Moses:

Exodus 20:18-19
18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die."

Die of fear?  I wonder why they were so afraid.  Probably because they were so evil that they could not bear the presence of God or the sound of God's voice.

Based on what I know about these 3000 men, I do not believe that what they did was good.  That is why I do not defend them and why I do not defend their actions.

I don't believe that anything is being left out.  But if you really believe that some part of the story is being left out, why do you judge the Bible and why do you judge those of us who believe that the Bible is the word of God?  Shouldn't you at least get all the facts and find those parts of the story that you believe are being left out before judging?  And if you cannot find those parts of the story that you believe are missing, can you not conclude that you just don't know for sure if this is the word of God, rather than assure us that it isn't?

Like I said, I don't expect to change your mind on this.  I'm just explaining why I do not have any problems with God ordering the execution of these 3000 men.  They were given much more than you and I have ever been given, yet they insisted on turning their back on God and going back to idol worship which included sacrificing children and doing other detestable things.

Loco, we are making assumptions about what the people thought here.   You don't kill people because they didn't value what you gave them.   I see very few justifications for killing.  This is far from any.  What these did, sex orgies, idol etc....  (all with Aaron's involvement) is something far from being punishable by death.   It looks more like Moses had a minor mutiny on his hands and took care of it.......in the name of God.

[OzmO]

OzmO, rejoice in the fact that God is patient with this generation (anno domini) because nothing is new under the sun we deserve the same, BUT God has shown mercy on us all! He is giving us space to repent and answer the call!

Space to repent?   Is this more fear based motivation?  Moses killed 3000 people, in God's name as he told everyone God ordered it and saved his brother from the killing.  And we should rejoice he's more forgiving?  That's twisted.   How about God never told Moses that to begin and God is still the same as he has been for eternity, not changing HIS MOOD LIKE MAN DOES.

[OzmO]

Ex 32:6 includes ...."Afterward they sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry." 

According to my study bible the Hebrew word for ""to indulge in revelry" suggests sex play.  (same word used in Gen 26:8 )  In light of the drinking and possible nakedness (Ex 32:25 kjv; 1 Cor 10: the scene likely became a drunken sex orgy."

So like loco said even if they weren't sacrificing people it's more than them "becoming insecure" and making an idol to worship.

They were told not to do it or die and they did it anyway.  If you told your child not to stick beans up his nose or he'd get a spanking...and then he stuck beans up his nose.....do you not give him the spanking?

There's a big difference between spanking someone and killing them.

[loco]

Loco, we are making assumptions about what the people thought here.   You don't kill people because they didn't value what you gave them.   I see very few justifications for killing.  This is far from any.  What these did, sex orgies, idol etc....  (all with Aaron's involvement) is something far from being punishable by death.   It looks more like Moses had a minor mutiny on his hands and took care of it.......in the name of God.

I am not assuming anything.  God told them, with a very loud and very clear voice, not to do it.  They heard God tell them not to do it, but they did it anyway.  That's no assumption.  You may disagree with me, but I believe that God gave them what they deserved.   We know that their worship includes child sacrifice.  That's no assumption. 

For example, you don't join a terrorist group to sing songs and dance around.  You join a terrorist group to kill innocent people.  And if a group of people from your terrorist group get caught, you'll all be executed, whether or not you got a chance to kill an innocent person.  Likewise, the worship of the Golden Calf included child sacrifice and many other detestable things, and they were guilty.

By the way, did you know that more the 3000 people worshipped the calf, but God gave them another chance?  Those 3000 men even got a second chance from God, God showed them mercy, yet they rejected that chance. 

Exodus 32:14
"Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened"

Exodus 32:26
 So he[Moses] stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the LORD, come to me."

See, even then these 3000 had a chance to repent and stand by Moses like the others did, then God would have spared their lives.  I'd say, yup, they deserved to die.

[loco]

There's a big difference between spanking someone and killing them.

There is a big difference between sticking beans up your nose and sacrificing children to an idol.

[OzmO]

I am not assuming anything.  God told them, with a very loud and very clear voice, not to do it.  They heard God tell them not to do it, but they did it anyway.  That's no assumption.  You may disagree with me, but I believe that God gave them what they deserved.   We know that their worship includes child sacrifice.  That's no assumption. 

For example, you don't join a terrorist group to sing songs and dance around.  You join a terrorist group to kill innocent people.  And if a group of people from your terrorist group get caught, you'll all be executed, whether or not you got a chance to kill an innocent person.  Likewise, the worship of the Golden Calf included child sacrifice and many other detestable things, and they were guilty.

By the way, did you know that more the 3000 people worshipped the calf, but God gave them another chance?  Those 3000 men even got a second chance from God, God showed them mercy, yet they rejected that chance. 

Exodus 32:14
"Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened"

Exodus 32:26
 So he[Moses] stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the LORD, come to me."

See, even then these 3000 had a chance to repent and stand by Moses like the others did, then God would have spared their lives.  I'd say, yup, they deserved to die.

Yes, you are correct.  but in the end, they were killed for not being obedient, not because they harmed a child.

[OzmO]

There is a big difference between sticking beans up your nose and sacrificing children to an idol.

Again, very correct.   Did they sacrifice a child??     no.


You are already punishing them for something they didn't do.   

So I'm going to follow God's example and punish my son today for something he'll surely do sometime.    How much sense does that make?


Then I'm going to kill the first practicing Muslim i find.

[loco]

Yes, you are correct.  but in the end, they were killed for not being obedient, not because they harmed a child.

You are correct, in the end they were killed for making and worshiping the calf.  But the whole story shows that God is good, merciful and just.

God is good and gave them freedom from the Egyptians, gave them bread from heaven when they asked for bread, gave them meat when they asked for meat, gave them water when they asked for water.

God is good and spoke to them when they asked to hear God's voice as a sign.

God is merciful and gave them a second chance even after they had made and worshiped the golden calf.

God was just when He killed them, not only for their disobedience, but also for refusing to repent.  God did not kill them for being good boys.  These were evil men.  Sorry, I will not defend them!  If God had not killed them, God would not be just.

[loco]

So I'm going to follow God's example and punish my son today for something he'll surely do sometime.    How much sense does that make?


Then I'm going to kill the first practicing Muslim i find.

No and No.  Where do you get this from?