Author Topic: RIP...Arthur Jones  (Read 43798 times)

pumpster

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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #50 on: August 28, 2007, 11:03:31 PM »
I doubt his high intensity theory is correct. Oh, it does have a place in hypertrophy theory, but if it were true it would have been embraced by now by rank and file bodybuilders. I suppose his main message was that unless you did something extraordinary you were unlikely to grow or get stronger. His ideas re volume do not stand up in research, although this is controversial. There is very little research re hypertrophy in large muscles.
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What's missing from this and other assessments like it is balance, in place of which is conjecture. Whether HIT's effective is entirely debatable; any method that effectively exhausts the muscle works IMO.

The more likely reason HIT isn't followed by most BBs has little to do with efficacy and everything to do with the gruelling nature of the training, when done correctly. Most can't get to the right degree of intensity AKA torture after years of standard training, nor are they able to maintain that intensity for any length of time.

There were other factors, such as personal taste, the "enjoyment" & pacing of volume training that is lacking with the comparatively brusque, brief workouts involved with HIT. The comfort factor found in standard types of training protocols is completely absent in HIT, replaced by training that's over almost before it's begun that thanks to the intensity involved can leave practitioners in a stupor if done correctly. Sergio was sorry he didn't continue with HIT but deep down was also glad to be done with it i suspect; sans machines he could've still continued HIT with his training partner if the desire were really there.

Vince B

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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #51 on: August 29, 2007, 01:51:42 AM »
This isn't the thread to debate HIT theory. What amuses me is those who believe in HIT always argue that those who failed to grow simply weren't training intensely enough. What a pity the scientists are not interested enough to test various theories. If they did we wouldn't have to waste so much time on the internet discussion boards debating HIT and other methods.

When Arthur put ads in Ironman they were read just as much as the stories and articles were. Arthur said he could sell shit if it was marketed properly. He was right, too. Exercise science has advanced in molecular research since Arthur was active in bodybuilding theory. I doubt his theory will be the cornerstone of hypertrophy training. That is the trouble with philosophy, if the theory doesn't work then there is something wrong with the theory. Arthur never had much success with hypertrophy on his own body but he could convince anyone else of anything. I bet that disappointed him.

What remains as part of exercise theory are the concepts that Arthur introduced or stressed. His machines were never embraced by the rank and file bodybuilders who still proclaim to this day that they prefer free weights. That would have been grounds enough for Arthur to abandon bodybuilders as knuckleheads. Mike Mentzer is gone so there aren't too many left to champion the ideas that Arthur made popular. Ellington Darden still publishes books on HIT so I guess he makes a living from that enterprise.

I am not judging Arthur but I have always challenged theories and that is also something that Arthur urged us all to do.

chris_mason

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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #52 on: August 29, 2007, 04:49:25 AM »
OK, I understand Jones liked guns, but why the fuck, would he need a machine gun to feed a baby elephant?

He was in very dangerous places in the world and needed to protect himself. 
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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #53 on: August 29, 2007, 05:12:51 AM »
He was in very dangerous places in the world and needed to protect himself. 
I thought I heard he lived on a "farm" with alot of animals that were being poached so he had to carry the gun to protect himself and the animals....guy was intense if you believe the stories about him.  RIP.  I love reading his stuff.
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bmacsys

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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #54 on: August 29, 2007, 05:25:23 AM »
Jones was a VERY interesting man. 

You can read a bit more about him in this interview I did with Ellington Darden, PhD.

http://www.atlargenutrition.com/ellington_darden_interview.php



You can download the .pdf file of Jones book "and the gods laughed" from the internet. EXTREMELY good read.
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bmacsys

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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #55 on: August 29, 2007, 05:26:13 AM »
OK, I understand Jones liked guns, but why the fuck, would he need a machine gun to feed a baby elephant?

Africa was a very dangerous place in the 40's, 50's and 60's.
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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #56 on: August 29, 2007, 07:44:03 AM »
what was the cause of death? steroid related?
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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #57 on: August 29, 2007, 07:57:12 AM »


 Arthur never had much success with hypertrophy on his own body but he could convince anyone else of anything. I bet that disappointed him.

 


From looking at earlier photos I would say he did have success with hypertrophy. He may not have looked like the BB'ers of that era(he didn't use hormones) but still above average size.

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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #58 on: August 29, 2007, 08:21:43 AM »
Neither Arthur, Peary Rader, Bob Hoffman, Bob Kennedy, or Ben Weider were bodybuilders. Joe did compete in the good old days. Arthur did do some training so I guess that counts. However, he didn't really practice what he preached because muscles were a low priority for him. He seemed to be lean most of his life and perhaps that was the limiting factor for much size.

bmacsys

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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #59 on: August 29, 2007, 09:15:25 AM »
Neither Arthur, Peary Rader, Bob Hoffman, Bob Kennedy, or Ben Weider were bodybuilders. Joe did compete in the good old days. Arthur did do some training so I guess that counts. However, he didn't really practice what he preached because muscles were a low priority for him. He seemed to be lean most of his life and perhaps that was the limiting factor for much size.

He also detested steroids Vince.
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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #60 on: August 29, 2007, 09:40:22 AM »
He also detested steroids Vince.

his entire success was based on steroid users ie viator, mentzer, coe, even oliva. he did hype hit as a program that didn't require steroids, but i doubt he actually believed that nonsense. jones was pure salesman.

if it weren't for steroids people would have realized that nautilus was less effective than free weights and probably not bought into it in the first place. as it was he had all his bbers pictured using the equipment and gave lecture after lecture on the advantages of nautilus over free weights, propping up his juiced bbers as exhibits.

it worked and the rest is history.

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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #61 on: August 29, 2007, 05:53:03 PM »
Arthur wrote about muscles in a logical way. I recall how he used a train composed of boxcars to illustrate his contraction ideas. That was a poor analogy because of the sliding filament theory. What he did know was that he was smarter than most jocks who were exercise experts and he could out argue any of them. Today things are totally different and the language of exercise science is complex and difficult to comprehend. It is a very different world at the cellular level than Arthur or anyone else imagined 30 years ago.

The test of any theory is does it work? The best that can be claimed by HIT is that it works some of the time with some people. In other words, the theory is literally not correct. If you have falsehoods in your premises you can end up with both true and false conclusions. All the logic in the world cannot change the way things are in reality. When dealing with complex phenomena like bodybuilding it is exceeding difficult to keep everything the same and alter one factor and test for that. Without doing rigorous testing it is unlikely that anyone will discover anything approaching an exact science of anything.

Bodybuilding at the highest level today has been contaminated by drug use. There is no way to know exactly what is causing the increases in muscle size. I have written that it is possible to grow rapidly without using any drugs or supplements and people have labelled me crazy. Rapid, sustained growth is the test of hypertrophy theory.  Arthur predicted HIT would revolutionize bodybuilding and we would see champions within a few years using HIT and Nautilus machines. It didn't happen. Drugs became the biggest factor in professional bodybuilding and training became secondary.

pumpster

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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #62 on: August 29, 2007, 06:48:22 PM »
his entire success was based on steroid users ie viator, mentzer, coe, even oliva. he did hype hit as a program that didn't require steroids, but i doubt he actually believed that nonsense. jones was pure salesman.

if it weren't for steroids people would have realized that nautilus was less effective than free weights and probably not bought into it in the first place. as it was he had all his bbers pictured using the equipment and gave lecture after lecture on the advantages of nautilus over free weights, propping up his juiced bbers as exhibits.

it worked and the rest is history.

One-sided speculation.

pumpster

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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #63 on: August 29, 2007, 06:49:44 PM »
This isn't the thread to debate HIT theory. What amuses me is those who believe in HIT always argue that those who failed to grow simply weren't training intensely enough. What a pity the scientists are not interested enough to test various theories. If they did we wouldn't have to waste so much time on the internet discussion boards debating HIT and other methods.

When Arthur put ads in Ironman they were read just as much as the stories and articles were. Arthur said he could sell shit if it was marketed properly. He was right, too. Exercise science has advanced in molecular research since Arthur was active in bodybuilding theory. I doubt his theory will be the cornerstone of hypertrophy training. That is the trouble with philosophy, if the theory doesn't work then there is something wrong with the theory. Arthur never had much success with hypertrophy on his own body but he could convince anyone else of anything. I bet that disappointed him.

What remains as part of exercise theory are the concepts that Arthur introduced or stressed. His machines were never embraced by the rank and file bodybuilders who still proclaim to this day that they prefer free weights. That would have been grounds enough for Arthur to abandon bodybuilders as knuckleheads. Mike Mentzer is gone so there aren't too many left to champion the ideas that Arthur made popular. Ellington Darden still publishes books on HIT so I guess he makes a living from that enterprise.

I am not judging Arthur but I have always challenged theories and that is also something that Arthur urged us all to do.


If this isn't the place to discuss theory then why was this brought up in the first place, and if it is, be fair and present more than one-dimensional critiques and judgements. With little to support your views this is nothing more than an unnecessary diatribe.

A fairer apraisal would be that it was another way to achieve the same goals.

chris2489

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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #64 on: August 29, 2007, 07:05:44 PM »
Neither Arthur, Peary Rader, Bob Hoffman, Bob Kennedy, or Ben Weider were bodybuilders. Joe did compete in the good old days. Arthur did do some training so I guess that counts. However, he didn't really practice what he preached because muscles were a low priority for him. He seemed to be lean most of his life and perhaps that was the limiting factor for much size.

If you read Arthur's autobiography you will see he enjoyed weight training and trained on and off for years but when he did train he practiced what he preached. He stated he was 205lbs in muscular condition with a little over 17 inch arms at his peak, you don't get that way from very little training. Unlike BB'ers he had other interest that took up his time and didn't allow for training. In my earlier post with pics you can see he had a good amount of muscular size on him. Perhaps if he trained continuously year after year he would have even been bigger.

Vince B

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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #65 on: August 29, 2007, 08:14:39 PM »
I think we can talk about the contributions of Arthur Jones and comment on what has happened to theories he presented. Those of us who were current with what Arthur wrote did wonder if his principles would spread to the bodybuilders. It never happened. Just about everyone uses volume of one kind or another. Arthur's dream of brief workouts was wishful thinking. That is not what big muscles are for. The relationship between strength and large size diminishes beyond a certain size. There after it is related to muscular endurance and thus, volume, and not intensity is the key factor. What seemed to make sense when Arthur wrote about it turned out not to be what was found in bodybuilders. That he took Sergio to a new level is mainly because he did something extraordinary with Sergio and put those muscles under severe tension for several minutes.

If Arthur had 17 inch arms at his peak we would have seen images of them by now. I never felt like Arthur respected bodybuilders. He certainly dismissed most of them, including Bill Pearl, who avoided controversy thoughout his long career.

I think Arthur's legacy will be for his contributions to exercise equipment. His Medx testing equipment set a new standard for professional equipment. He insisted that mechanics had to be friendly to the human anatomy and forever after all manufacturers tried harder to get machines that worked properly. We owe a lot of that to Arthur Jones.

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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #66 on: August 30, 2007, 12:45:48 AM »
Obviously besides having some good ideas he was a major bullshitter & obnoxious know-all, which is part of the HIT legacy:

Arthur Jones; Revolutionized Exercise Industry

Washington Post
Thursday, August 30, 2007

Arthur Jones, 80, the swashbuckling inventor of Nautilus exercise equipment, which revolutionized strength training by replacing the dead weight of barbells with a variable resistance technique, died Aug. 28 at his home in Ocala, Fla. No cause of death was reported.

Gruff and profane, Mr. Jones did not fit the image of the creator of the machines used by svelte, leotard-wearing exercise enthusiasts. He wore horn-rimmed glasses and ill-fitting pants. He spent his early life hunting big game for zoos and collectors. He made television shows and a movie, all geared to outdoors adventure.
 
It was his invention of the Nautilus that made his fortune and reshaped the world's physique. It took bodybuilding out of the subculture of dank gyms and bulging muscles and ushered in an era that brought sedentary office workers into brightly lit fitness centers.

The creation was born of frustration. Living in the Tulsa YMCA in 1948, he routinely became irritated when the barbells and exercise regimes then in vogue failed to give him the big muscles he sought.

"I ended up with the arms and legs of a gorilla on the body of a spider monkey," he told Forbes magazine in 1983. "I figured there was something wrong with the exercise tool."

One day, instead of quitting when he reached a plateau, he cut his routine in half and was surprised to see results. Deducing that muscles need rest to recover and that leverage affects strength, he began experimenting. He introduced his product in 1970 at a Los Angeles weight-lifting convention and dubbed it the Nautilus, after the nautilus seashell, which resembles the kidney-shaped cam that was his breakthrough development.

The machines and the company he formed to sell them made him a multimillionaire and landed him on the Forbes 400 list. At one point, financial analysts estimated that Nautilus was grossing $300 million annually.

With his new wealth, Mr. Jones bought 600 acres of north Florida property to house a private zoo containing 90 elephants, three rhinoceroses, a gorilla, 300 alligators, 400 crocodiles and three used Boeing 707 airliners. He founded a "fly-in" community in Ocala called Jumbolair Aviation Estates, whose most famous resident is actor John Travolta.

But Mr. Jones's flamboyant personality didn't play so well in the business world. In 1984, Adweek magazine said he spent $4.2 million on an ad campaign as a purported ploy to avoid making a profit and paying taxes. The Internal Revenue Service indicted him in 1981 with failing to pay federal income taxes in the 1970s.

As many as six former business partners and distributors accused him of threatening to kill them after disputes, which incurred a spate of lawsuits from distributors and retail accounts. Other distributors accused Nautilus of failing to ship merchandise they had paid for.

He also disastrously invested $70 million in a video studio, dubbed the Nautilus Television Network, which produced a talk show starring his friend G. Gordon Liddy, the chief of the Watergate "plumbers." Mr. Jones also made a vanity TV program starring himself, dubbed "Younger Women, Faster Airplanes and Bigger Crocodiles," which was also his unofficial motto. He had hoped to package the programs on videodisks, a technology that bombed.

He sold his share in the Nautilus business and began experimenting with a new invention, intended to analyze and exercise lumbar muscles for those who have lower-back pain. That invention turned into the company MedX.

"This is the first machine that truly isolates the muscles of the lower back," he told Business Week magazine. "My competitors who say otherwise are liars or fools -- or both. Let them sue me. I can't wait." Suspicious of the competitors, whom he called "thieves, frauds, fakers, slanderers and incompetents," he often carried a Colt .45.

"I've shot 630 elephants and 63 men, and I regret the elephants more," he told reporters in the 1970s.
 
Born to a well-off family in Arkansas, he was the son of two doctors. He started running away from home at a young age and dropped out of school in ninth grade. "I should have dropped out in sixth grade," he told Forbes.

He rode the rails, he later told interviewers, until enlisting in the Navy during World War II and serving in the Pacific. After the war, he launched a zoo in Slidell, La.

Somewhere along the way, he learned to fly and began collecting exotic animals, which he ferried to zoos, pet stores and researchers. He claimed run-ins with agencies such as the CIA and FBI, which he said accused him of running guns or bombs to Cuba.

For 12 years, business thrived. He made a series of TV programs that aired as "Wild Cargo" in the United States. In the mid-1960s, he moved his family to Rhodesia, where they lived two years until the government took exception to his wild-game business and seized his assets, forcing his return to the United States.

He had never formally studied physiology, but one of his daughters told People magazine that he kept a freezer full of frozen human limbs for research. He acknowledged that his politics were to the right of Attila the Hun and, while living in a state plagued by drug runners, advocated killing drug users.

"When I was broke, I was crazy," he said. "Now that I am rich, I'm eccentric."

Mr. Jones married six women -- all 16 to 20 years old at the time -- and divorced them all. At least four children survive him.

He sold Nautilus in 1986 for $23 million. He also sold MedX in 1996 and then retired. Among his other inventions were photographic vehicles and camera mounts and lenses.

"Specialization is for insects," he once snapped. "There is no limit to my abilities. I can do anything and do it well if I turn my mind to it."

Vince B

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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #67 on: August 30, 2007, 03:41:14 AM »
Arthur apparently said why own a gun if you don't have it when you need it! He did say that 'the next man who copies my designs is a dead man!' Seems to me he had a complex like some short guys have. Still, what a guy Arthur was. He did 'marry' Inge his last wife who wasn't young. I think she died a couple of years ago. She took those incredible photos of Sergio when he was training with Arthur. That news article mentioned heaps of stuff I didn't know about. We can only imagine what Arthur did to get around rules, regulations and paying taxes. To think that he used gym equipment to make a fortune is quite astonishing. He is the only guy who did that because all the other inventors didn't make much at all. Not that I know about, anyway.

I have no doubt a film will be made about his life. Maybe there are several stories to be told.

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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #68 on: August 30, 2007, 08:17:46 AM »
If you have falsehoods in your premises you can end up with both true and false conclusions.

what are the falsehoods in h.i.t, vince?
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chris2489

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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #69 on: August 30, 2007, 08:23:18 AM »
Anyone interested in Arthur Jones should read his autobiography here http://arthurjonesexercise.com/GodLaughs/GodLaughs.html

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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #70 on: August 30, 2007, 08:44:05 AM »
One-sided speculation.

how i am i speculating? that is exactly what he did and he knew what he was doing.

the guy was not remotely interested in bbing promotion. he trained these top flight bbers to sell them as exhibits of the success of nautilus.

the problem with nautilus is that it fails to take into account that muscles require hard work and machines can only get you so far because they don't work the stabilisers and the prime movers become less efficient because they are not required to balance anything.

btw, great article

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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #71 on: August 30, 2007, 08:46:33 AM »
how i am i speculating? that is exactly what he did and he knew what he was doing.


maybe the fact u said u dont bodybuild  ???
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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #72 on: August 30, 2007, 08:56:18 AM »
maybe the fact u said u dont bodybuild  ???

i do bodybuild and i've doen a lot of it over the years.

i also told you who jones was previously when you thought mentzer invented h.i.t, remember?

when i said i'm not a bodybuilder, i meant that is not my priority and i don't compete.

wolfy, hedge, mason, magoo and a lot of other guys that post here aren't bbers either. does that mean they don't know what they're talking about?

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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #73 on: August 30, 2007, 08:58:42 AM »
"beast" is a vicious cage fighter DL, don't mess with him because he'll fly you anywhere in the world to fight him.

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Re: RIP...Arthur Jones
« Reply #74 on: August 30, 2007, 09:05:17 AM »
"beast" is a vicious cage fighter DL, don't mess with him because he'll fly you anywhere in the world to fight him.

you should get out of the basement and see the world scott.

there is much more to see than dirty windows and your mom's washing