Author Topic: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq  (Read 17445 times)

Dos Equis

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2007, 01:29:52 PM »
And BS... You have come across offended over and over and over...  You have stated in the past you won't read anything I write... If you're that hung up on words like ass and shit... Oh brother ::)

 ::)  I'm not ignoring many of your posts because I'm offended.  I ignore them because I don't feel like reading profanity-laden ad hominem attacks on people who disagree with you.   ::)

 

Hugo Chavez

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2007, 01:30:58 PM »
Beach = teh pussy. HTH.
I'm glad as hell I didn't grow up in Wyoming a "goodie two shoes" LOL, I can only imagine the missery that would have come from being the kind of person that's put off by hearing shit and ass...

Hugo Chavez

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2007, 01:35:58 PM »
What.  No cussing?  Now you went and confused me.  :)  I'll Rep. Gephardt respond:


Beach, there is ZERO information in Gephardt's statements to refute the information that I posted and the Frontline doc... ZIP... It only shows me that you didn't adequately understand the material or you didn't look at it.

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #53 on: January 04, 2007, 01:39:28 PM »
I'm glad as hell I didn't grow up in Wyoming a "goodie two shoes" LOL, I can only imagine the missery that would have come from being the kind of person that's put off by hearing shit and ass...

he's admitted in the past that he would trust alex jones to warn him of a terror attack than his own president.

he's a hypocrite in that he's been around long enough to see BS wars for profit and still supports them.

he's a fool because he dropped out of high school but mocks others for "being dumb". 

Dos Equis

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #54 on: January 04, 2007, 01:44:54 PM »
Beach, there is ZERO information in Gephardt's statements to refute the information that I posted and the Frontline doc... ZIP... It only shows me that you didn't adequately understand the material or you didn't look at it.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.  I think Gephardt's comments clearly show he relied on Clinton administration information to determine Saddam was a threat, which cuts directly against the claim that Bush invented a threat to support the war. 

Hugo Chavez

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2007, 01:55:35 PM »
We'll just have to agree to disagree.  I think Gephardt's comments clearly show he relied on Clinton administration information to determine Saddam was a threat, which cuts directly against the claim that Bush invented a threat to support the war. 
::) are you completey close minded?  It simply does not refute in any fashion anything I posted.  But even if it did, you're placing FAITH in the words of a politician justifying his vote over the facts which you are refusing to address.  Are you serious with this argument.  I will not let this stand at agree to disagree because you are flat out dead wrong.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2007, 02:00:50 PM »
Beach, address this one small portion of my lengthy post proving a conserted effort by the admin to fix intel around the policy:

In the months following the September 11th attacks, officials at the Czech Interior Ministry asserted that Atta made a trip to Prague on 8 April 2001 to meet with an Iraqi intelligence agent named Ahmed Khalil Ibrahim Samir al-Ani. This piece of information was passed on to the FBI as "unevaluated raw intelligence".[14] The Bush Administration frequently cited these allegations as evidence of links between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda. Intelligence officials have concluded that such a meeting did not occur. (as is revealed in the frontline documentary, Libby told Clarke to get on board with this even though Clarke believed beyond any doubt that no such meeting took place.  Intelligence actually showed that he was in a different place when the meeting was said to have happend.  This meeting was one of the little intelligence items that came from the Rummy Pentagon made up intelligence agency.  This is the crap that shows they didn't learn of bad intelligence later, they fargin made the bad intellignece) In the Czech Republic, some intelligence officials say the source of the purported meeting was an Arab informant who approached the Czech intelligence service with his sighting of Atta only after Atta's photograph had appeared in newspapers all over the world. It is possible that the informant mistook another man for Atta, and the consensus of investigators has concluded that Atta never attended a meeting in Prague.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Atta_al_Sayed

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #57 on: January 04, 2007, 02:14:21 PM »
Seems to me that Beach Bum *feels* that saddam was a bad guy and while there was some misleading/exaggeration took place, he believes it was justified by the ends.

I think beach bum sees the 3000 soldiers as cannon fodder too.  After swallowing hard every night when the news tells him four more died, he comes here and makes fun of those who oppose it.  He knows his side is lying and abusing power, but he *feels* whatever info the other side presents will fuck with his head, and won't look at it.

He knows downing memo pwns the official fvcking story.  he's scared.

a_joker10

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #58 on: January 04, 2007, 02:19:04 PM »
https://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd_2004/chap1.html

Thought I would include this in the debate.
This is the report from the CIA after the fall of Saddam.
240- This is the whole precursor argument. If you get rid of the weapons but don't destroy the precursors. New chemical weapons can be made quickly.

Scientific Research and Intention to Reconstitute WMD

Many former Iraqi officials close to Saddam either heard him say or inferred that he intended to resume WMD programs when sanctions were lifted. Those around him at the time do not believe that hemade a decision to permanently abandon WMD programs.Saddam encouraged Iraqi officials to preserve the nation’s scientific brain trust essential for WMD. Saddam told his advisors as early as 1991 that he wanted to keep Iraq’s nuclear scientists fully employed. This theme of preserving personnel resources persisted throughout the sanctions period.

    * Saddam’s primary concern was retaining a cadre of skilled scientists to facilitate reconstitution of WMD programs after sanctions were lifted, according to former science advisor Ja’far Diya’ Ja’far Hashim. Saddam communicated his policy in several meetings with officials from MIC, Ministry of Industry and Minerals, and the IAEC in 1991-1992. Saddam instructed general directors of Iraqi state companies and other state entities to prevent key scientists from the pre-1991 WMD program from leaving the country. This retention of scientists was Iraq’s only step taken to prepare for a resumption of WMD, in Ja’far’s opinion.
    * Presidential secretary ‘Abd Hamid Mahmud wrote that in 1991 Saddam told the scientists that they should “preserve plans in their minds” and “keep the brains of Iraq’s scientists fresh.” Iraq was to destroy everything apart from knowledge, which would be used to reconstitute a WMD program.
    * Saddam wanted people to keep knowledge in their heads rather than retain documents that could have been exposed, according to former Deputy Prime Minister Tariq ‘Aziz. Nuclear scientists were told in general terms that the program was over after 1991, and Tariq ‘Aziz inferred that the scientists understood that they should not keep documents or equipment. ‘Aziz also noted that if Saddam had the same opportunity as he did in the 1980s, he probably would have resumed research on nuclear weapons.
    * Ja’far said that Saddam stated on several occasions that he did not consider ballistic missiles to be WMD and therefore Iraq should not be subject to missile restrictions. Ja’far was unaware of any WMD activities in Iraq after the Gulf war, but said he thought Saddam would reconstitute all WMD disciplines when sanctions were lifted, although he cautioned that he never heard Saddam say this explicitly. Several former senior Regime officials also contended that nuclear weapons would have been important—if not central—components of Saddam’s future WMD force.
    * According to two senior Iraqi scientists, in 1993 Husayn Kamil, then the Minister of Military Industrialization, announced in a speech to a large audience of WMD scientists at the Space Research Center in Baghdad that WMD programs would resume and be expanded, when UNSCOM inspectors left Iraq. Husayn Kamil’s intimate relationship with Saddam added particular credibility to his remarks.
Z

a_joker10

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2007, 02:30:10 PM »
Sorting Out Whether Iraq Had WMD Before Operation Iraqi Freedom

ISG has not found evidence that Saddam Husayn possessed WMD stocks in 2003, but the available evidence from its investigation—including detainee interviews and document exploitation—leaves open the possibility that some weapons existed in Iraq although not of a militarily significant capability. Several senior officers asserted that if Saddam had WMD available when the 2003 war began, he would have used them to avoid being overrun by Coalition forces.

    * ‘Amir Hamudi Hasan Al Sa’adi told an emissary from the RG leadership, on 27 January 2003, that if Saddam had WMD, he would use it, according to a former officer with direct knowledge of Iraqi military ground operations and planning.
    * According to a former senior RG official, Iraq had dismantled or destroyed all of its WMD assets and manufacturing facilities. Had Saddam possessed WMD assets, he would have used them to counter the Coalition invasion.
    * If he had CW, Saddam would have used it against Coalition Forces to save the Regime, according to a former senior official.
    * Iraqi military planning did not incorporate the use—or even the threat of use—of WMD after 1991, according to ‘Ali Hasan Al Majid. WMD was never part of the military plan crafted to defeat the 2003 Coalition invasion.

Senior military officers and former Regime officials were uncertain about the existence of WMD during the sanctions period and the lead up to Operation Iraqi Freedom because Saddam sent mixed messages. Early on, Saddam sought to foster the impression with his generals that Iraq could resist a Coalition ground attack using WMD. Then, in a series of meetings in late 2002, Saddam appears to have reversed course and advised various groups of senior officers and officials that Iraq in fact did not have WMD. His admissions persuaded top commanders that they really would have to fight the United States without recourse to WMD. In March 2003, Saddam created further confusion when he implied to his ministers and senior officers that he had some kind of secret weapon.

    * Prior to December 2002, Saddam told his generals to concentrate on their jobs and leave the rest to him, because he had “something in his hand” (i.e. “something up his sleeve”), according to Minister of Military Industrialization ‘Abd-al-Tawab ‘Abdallah Al Mullah Huwaysh.
    * Saddam surprised his generals when he informed them he had no WMD in December 2002 because his boasting had led many to believe Iraq had some hidden capability, according to Tariq ‘Aziz. Saddam had never suggested to them that Iraq lacked WMD. Military morale dropped rapidly when he told senior officers they would have to fight the United States without WMD.
    * Saddam spoke at several meetings, including those of the joint RCC-Ba’th National Command and the ministerial council, and with military commanders in late 2002, explicitly to notify them Iraq had no WMD, according to the former presidential secretary. Saddam called upon other senior officials to corroborate what he was saying.
    * In Saddam’s last ministers’ meeting, convened in late March 2003 just before the war began, he told the attendees at least three times, “resist one week and after that I will take over.” They took this to mean he had some kind of secret weapon. There are indications that what Saddam actually had in mind was some form of insurgency against the coalition.
Z

Dos Equis

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #60 on: January 04, 2007, 04:43:40 PM »
Beach, address this one small portion of my lengthy post proving a conserted effort by the admin to fix intel around the policy:

In the months following the September 11th attacks, officials at the Czech Interior Ministry asserted that Atta made a trip to Prague on 8 April 2001 to meet with an Iraqi intelligence agent named Ahmed Khalil Ibrahim Samir al-Ani. This piece of information was passed on to the FBI as "unevaluated raw intelligence".[14] The Bush Administration frequently cited these allegations as evidence of links between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda. Intelligence officials have concluded that such a meeting did not occur. (as is revealed in the frontline documentary, Libby told Clarke to get on board with this even though Clarke believed beyond any doubt that no such meeting took place.  Intelligence actually showed that he was in a different place when the meeting was said to have happend.  This meeting was one of the little intelligence items that came from the Rummy Pentagon made up intelligence agency.  This is the crap that shows they didn't learn of bad intelligence later, they fargin made the bad intellignece) In the Czech Republic, some intelligence officials say the source of the purported meeting was an Arab informant who approached the Czech intelligence service with his sighting of Atta only after Atta's photograph had appeared in newspapers all over the world. It is possible that the informant mistook another man for Atta, and the consensus of investigators has concluded that Atta never attended a meeting in Prague.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Atta_al_Sayed


What's there to address?  This is one piece of information.  Assume it is true (i.e., there was really no Atta meeting), that doesn't change the fact that the entire world considered Saddam a threat.

We just have different takes on the start of the war.  You believe Bush manipulated intelligence and formed policy around that intelligence.  I believe what they did was adopt the view that existed before they took office that Saddam was a threat.  I cannot ignore what Congress and the rest of the world stated both before and after the war started.  Those statements are highly relevant IMO and directly contradict the view that Bush manufactured a threat.  In my view, too many independent people around the world believed Saddam was a threat to conclude Bush invented that Saddam was a threat.   
 

Hugo Chavez

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #61 on: January 04, 2007, 05:03:25 PM »
I give up... I post a long post of proof that the bush admin worked to cherry pick and fix intelligence and you won't, absolutely won't, address it... so I post one thing from the long post and you note that it's just one piece of info ::)  I give up... Your ignorance in impenetrable.

Dos Equis

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #62 on: January 04, 2007, 05:09:55 PM »
I give up... I post a long post of proof that the bush admin worked to cherry pick and fix intelligence and you won't, absolutely won't, address it... so I post one thing from the long post and you note that it's just one piece of info ::)  I give up... Your ignorance in impenetrable.

You're not making any sense.  I give up too.   ::)

Hugo Chavez

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #63 on: January 04, 2007, 05:17:53 PM »
You cannot justify lies of a president to congress and the people because you personally like the intended outcome, nor note the words of politicians or policies of past presidents for justification.  That's goddamned destructive, dangerous and all around wrong as hell.  The downing street memos alone show that intent of the Bush Admin to fix intel around the policy and for the brits to get on board... 

Oh and if the "Entire World" considered Saddam a threat, please explain why Collin Powell and Condi Rice were not on board with that notion :-\

Feb. 24, 2001
, while meeting at Cairo's Ittihadiya Palace with Egyptian Foreign Minister Amr Moussa.

Asked about the sanctions placed on Iraq, which were then under review at the Security Council, Powell said the measures were working. In fact, he added, "(Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors."--Colin Powell

"But in terms of Saddam Hussein being there, let's remember that his country is divided, in effect. He does not control the northern part of his country. We are able to keep arms from him.
 His military forces have not been rebuilt."--
Condoleezza Rice
CNN Late Edition With Wolf Blitzer, July 29, 2001 



Hugo Chavez

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #64 on: January 04, 2007, 05:19:33 PM »
You're not making any sense.  I give up too.   ::)
Oh yea right, because no sence could be pulled from the clear cut black and white sources I gave ::)

Clown >:(

Dos Equis

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #65 on: January 04, 2007, 05:26:48 PM »
Oh yea right, because no sence could be pulled from the clear cut black and white sources I gave ::)

Clown >:(

Now that's the Berserker I'm used too.  The one who cannot discuss or debate an issue without attacking people.  Cannot get an agreement, lash out at the person.  Pretty juvenile.  It's 240's m.o. too.   ::) 

Hugo Chavez

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #66 on: January 04, 2007, 05:32:20 PM »
Now that's the Berserker I'm used too.  The one who cannot discuss or debate an issue without attacking people.  Cannot get an agreement, lash out at the person.  Pretty juvenile.  It's 240's m.o. too.   ::) 
Go on, run away....

Hugo Chavez

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #67 on: January 04, 2007, 05:34:17 PM »
The matter of whether or not the United States rightfully considered Iraq as an imminent threat has been a matter of much international discourse.

The following addresses claims and the spin from the Bush administration, as well as response and commentary from the media.

However, the question was more or less settled May 1, 2005, by revelations found in The secret Downing Street memo, July 23, 2002 and June 12, 2005, in The leaked Cabinet Office briefing paper, July 21, 2002: "Iraq: Conditions for Military Action" that the illusion of threat was fabricated by the Bush regime as a justification for its forthcoming invasion of Iraq.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Iraq_as_an_imminent_threat

Hugo Chavez

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #68 on: January 04, 2007, 05:39:12 PM »
(CBS) When no weapons of mass destruction surfaced in Iraq, President Bush insisted that all those WMD claims before the war were the result of faulty intelligence. But a former top CIA official, Tyler Drumheller — a 26-year veteran of the agency — has decided to do something CIA officials at his level almost never do: Speak out.

He tells correspondent Ed Bradley the real failure was not in the intelligence community but in the White House. He says he saw how the Bush administration, time and again, welcomed intelligence that fit the president's determination to go to war and turned a blind eye to intelligence that did not.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/21/60minutes/main1527749.shtml

Dos Equis

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #69 on: January 04, 2007, 05:42:34 PM »
"It is the duty of any president, in the final analysis, to defend this nation and dispel the security threat.  Saddam Hussein has brought military action upon himself by refusing for 12 years to comply with the mandates of the United Nations.  The brave and capable men and women of our armed forces and those who are with us will quickly, I know, remove him once and for all as a threat to his neighbors, to the world, and to his own people, and I support their doing so." 
 
Senator John Kerry (Democrat, Massachusetts)
Statement on eve of military strikes against Iraq
March 17, 2003
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030331&s=lizza033103

Hugo Chavez

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #70 on: January 04, 2007, 05:46:04 PM »
WAM BAM, CORROBORATION OF THE FRONTLINE ACCUSATIONS

The Pentagon Muzzles the CIA
Devising bad intelligence to promote bad policy


By Robert Dreyfuss
Issue Date: 12.16.02
Print Friendly | Email Article

Even as it prepares for war against Iraq, the Pentagon is already engaged on a second front: its war against the Central Intelligence Agency. The Pentagon is bringing relentless pressure to bear on the agency to produce intelligence reports more supportive of war with Iraq, according to former CIA officials. Key officials of the Department of Defense are also producing their own unverified intelligence reports to justify war. Much of the questionable information comes from Iraqi exiles long regarded with suspicion by CIA professionals. A parallel, ad hoc intelligence operation, in the office of Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas J. Feith, collects the information from the exiles and scours other raw intelligence for useful tidbits to make the case for preemptive war. These morsels sometimes go directly to the president.
The war over intelligence is a critical part of a broader offensive by the party of war within the Bush administration against virtually the entire expert Middle East establishment in the United States -- including State Department, Pentagon and CIA area specialists and leading military officers. Inside the foreign-policy, defense and intelligence agencies, nearly the whole rank and file, along with many senior officials, are opposed to invading Iraq. But because the less than two dozen neoconservatives leading the war party have the support of Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, they are able to marginalize that opposition.

Morale inside the U.S. national-security apparatus is said to be low, with career staffers feeling intimidated and pressured to justify the push for war. At the State Department, where Secretary of State Colin Powell's efforts at diplomacy have thus far slowed the relentless pressure for war, a key bureau is chilled by the presence of Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Near East Affairs Elizabeth L. Cheney, the vice president's daughter, who is in charge of Middle East economic policy, including oil. "When [Near East Affairs] meets, there is no debate," says Parker Borg, who served in the State Department for 30 years as an ambassador and deputy chief of counterterrorism. "How vocal would you be about commenting on Middle East policy with the vice president's daughter there?" Undersecretary of State John Bolton is also part of the small pro-war faction.

And at the Pentagon, where a number of critical offices have been filled by hawkish neoconservatives whose commitment to war with Iraq goes back a decade, Middle East specialists and uniformed military officers alike are seeing their views ignored. "I've heard from people on the Middle East staff in the Pentagon," says Borg, referring to the staff under neocon Peter Rodman, the assistant secretary of defense for International Security Affairs. "The Middle East experts in those officers are as cut off from the policy side as people in the State Department are."

But the sharpest battle is over the CIA. "There is tremendous pressure on [the CIA] to come up with information to support policies that have already been adopted," says Vincent Cannistraro, a former senior CIA official and counterterrorism expert. What's unfolding is a campaign by well-placed hawks to undermine the CIA's ability to provide objective, unbiased intelligence to the White House.

Voice crackling over his cell phone, Jim Woolsey is trying hard to sound objective and analytical, but he is, well, gloating. The former CIA director has been one of the leaders of the get-Saddam Hussein faction for years, promoting a unilateral U.S. strike against Baghdad. Woolsey is not quite a private citizen, serving as an adviser to the CIA and as a member of the Defense Policy Board, which is chaired by the ringleader of the pro-war neocons, former Assistant Secretary of Defense Richard Perle. Woolsey has also, at least once, served as unofficial liaison to the Iraqi National Congress (INC) and other Iraqi opposition groups.

What's got him excited is an Oct. 7 letter, recently declassified, from CIA Director George Tenet that put the CIA on record for the first time as saying that there have been "high-level contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda going back a decade"; that Iraq and Osama bin Laden's gang have "discussed safe haven"; that members of al-Qaeda have been present in Baghdad; and that Iraq has "provided training to al-Qaeda members in the areas of poisons and gases."

"The CIA has started saying things that the Defense Department has been saying all along, but up until that letter, I hadn't seen any evidence publicly that the CIA was acknowledging all these contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda," says Woolsey. "What I read the Tenet letter as saying is that they are starting to. The CIA has started to come around to point out some of the things that the Pentagon has been talking about."

Tenet's statement on Iraq and al-Qaeda was a significant departure from the consensus view among intelligence professionals. Since September 11, many of them, inside government and out, have pooh-poohed the notion that Iraq has provided support to al-Qaeda, and they continue to do so. Daniel Benjamin, co-author, with Steven Simon, of The Age of Sacred Terror, was director of counterterrorism at the National Security Council (NSC) in the late 1990s, and he oversaw a comprehensive review of Iraq and terrorism that came up empty. "In 1998, we went through every piece of intelligence we could find to see if there was a link [between] al-Qaeda and Iraq," says Benjamin. "We came to the conclusion that our intelligence agencies had it right: There was no noteworthy relationship between al-Qaeda and Iraq. I know that for a fact. No other issue has been as closely scrutinized as this one." The State Department's annual review of state-sponsored terrorism hasn't mentioned any link, either.

A sign of how the Iraq-al-Qaeda issue is roiling the agency is how Tenet himself qualified the analysis. In his letter, addressed to Sen. Bob Graham (D-Fla.), chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, Tenet wrote: "Our understanding of the relationship between Iraq and al-Qaeda is evolving and is based on sources of varying reliability." Benjamin, along with other analysts, points out that the CIA's letter seemed to strain to make the connection, noting that the phrase "sources of varying reliability" is "a way of saying that there isn't much evidence."

But if after failing to find links between Iraq and al-Qaeda for years the CIA is suddenly discovering a connection between the two, some analysts believe that it is Tenet, the CIA director, playing politics and arranging to tell the Pentagon what it wants to hear. "[The CIA] is giving Bush what he wanted on Iraq and al-Qaeda," says Melvin Goodman of the Center for International Policy, who is also a former CIA Soviet expert and a fierce critic of politicized intelligence. "Tenet is playing the game, to a certain extent." Goodman, who has maintained contacts inside the agency, says that the CIA's key intelligence analysts are upset with Tenet and concerned that he will frame their conclusions in a way that kowtows to the Pentagon's preconceived view. "There's a lot of anger and questions about whether Tenet will hold off this pressure," Goodman says. "[The CIA analysts are] worried, and they don't have a lot of confidence in him. But the analytical core is holding fast to the evidence, and the evidence doesn't show that link."

However, the intense pressure from the Pentagon seems to be having an effect. Tenet is, after all, a politician, not a CIA veteran. After serving as staff director for the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, Tenet moved over to the CIA itself and was named to the director's job by President Clinton. But he took pains to ingratiate himself with the Bushes, père et fils. He quickly acted to name the CIA headquarters after former President Bush in 1998, organized a major intelligence conference at the George Bush School of Government and Public Service at Texas A&M University -- itself headed by Robert Gates, a former CIA director -- and personally briefed then-Texas Gov. Bush during the 2000 election campaign. Tenet's quiet politicking was enough to persuade Bush to keep him on at the CIA, and the director's recent actions signal that he doesn't intend to buck the drive toward war.

"It's demoralizing to a number of the analysts," says Cannistraro. "The analysts are human, and some of them are also ambitious. What you have to worry about is the 'chill factor.' If people are ignoring your intelligence, and the Pentagon and NSC keep telling you, 'What about this? What about this? Keep looking!' -- well, then you start focusing on one thing instead of the other thing, because you know that's what your political masters want to hear."

Spy vs. Spy
For more than a year, one of the main sources of Defense Department pressure on the CIA has been a unnamed, rump intelligence unit set up in Undersecretary Feith's policy shop at the department. Begun as a two-person group, it has since expanded to four and now five people, and was set up to provide Rumsfeld, Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz and Feith with data they can use to disparage, undermine and contradict the CIA's own analyses. Established just after September 11, the unit's main focus -- though not its only one -- has been on Iraq, especially Iraq's alleged links to al-Qaeda and Iraq's alleged intent to use its alleged nuclear, chemical and biological weapons.

In a controversial Oct. 24 briefing at the Pentagon, Rumsfeld noted that a primary purpose of the unit was to provide him with ammunition that he could use to harass the CIA staffer who briefs him every morning. "In comes the briefer, and she walks through the daily brief and I ask questions," said Rumsfeld. "What I could do is say, 'Gee, what about this? Or what about that? Has somebody thought of this?'" Using powerful computers and having access to reams of intelligence factoids, Feith's team could create a steady stream of data bits that Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Feith himself could use to pick apart the CIA's conclusions, sending the CIA's collectors and analysts back to rewrite their reports.

The fact that the unit is overseen by Feith, an ideologically committed partisan who is pushing for war with Iraq, raises questions about its impartiality and its willingness to reach conclusions that might contradict the Pentagon leadership's stated policy intentions. "It's one thing to create a unit to provide an independent look, and it's another thing to go on a fishing expedition," says Benjamin, the former NSC official. "The fact that this unit has been there for more than a year suggests that it is a fishing expedition."

Informed sources say the person in charge of the unnamed unit is Abram Shulsky, another key member of the Perle-Wolfowitz war party. When Daniel Patrick Moynihan (D-N.Y.) was elected to the Senate in 1976, he "brought with him some of [Sen. Henry M.] Jackson's most militantly neoconservative former aides, among them Elliott Abrams, Chester Finn, Abram Shulsky and Gary Schmitt," according to a 1986 account in The Washington Post. Perle was also a former Jackson aide, and Shulsky, Perle and many kindred thinkers got jobs in President Reagan's Department of Defense in the 1980s. Shulsky also spent years at the Consortium for the Study of Intelligence, a project of the National Strategy Information Center (NSIC), and at the RAND Corporation. At RAND, along with other fellow neocons, including I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby (now Cheney's chief of staff), Shulsky contributed a study called "From Containment to Global Leadership: America and the World after the Cold War." That study was a forerunner of the recent military strategy document released by the Pentagon suggesting that the United States act to preserve its global hegemony, even if it means preemptive war or preventive war making.

Roy Godson, the head of the Consortium for the Study of Intelligence and a colleague of Shulsky's for many years, has high hopes for the success of the Pentagon's Iraq intelligence unit, despite its small size when arrayed against the CIA's might. "It might turn out to be a David against Goliath," says Godson.

Dubious Intelligence
The Pentagon's war against the CIA relies heavily on intelligence from the Iraqi National Congress. But most Iraq hands with long experience in dealing with that country's tumultuous politics consider the INC's intelligence-gathering abilities to be nearly nil. Yet, Perle, Woolsey and the Pentagon's policy-makers increasingly use the INC as their primary source of information about Iraq's weapons programs, its relationship to terrorism and its internal political dynamics. "A lot of what is useful with respect to what's going on in Iraq is coming from defectors, and furthermore they are defectors who have often come through an organization, namely, the INC, that neither State nor the CIA likes very much," Woolsey told me.

Earlier this year, the State Department abruptly stopped funding an INC scheme to collect intelligence inside Iraq. "The INC could only account for $2.5 million out of $4.5 million they received for the program," says a State Department official. "I can't say that there was evidence of corruption or embezzlement, but $2 million was unaccounted for." The more the INC began getting into intelligence work, the more the State Department grew uncomfortable funding the program. "The only reason they stopped paying for that program is that the State Department hates the INC," says a knowledgeable source. Shortly thereafter, the Pentagon picked up the tab. Now, whatever intelligence the INC collects goes straight to the Defense Department, according to spokesman Lt. Col. David Lapan. "The intelligence guys here get the information first and do the analysis," he says. Goodman, the former CIA analyst, concurs, saying, "The INC is in the Pentagon every day."

But the Pentagon's critics are appalled that intelligence provided by the INC might shape U.S. decisions about going to war against Baghdad. At the CIA and at the State Department, Ahmed Chalabi, the INC's leader, is viewed as the ineffectual head of a self-inflated and corrupt organization skilled at lobbying and public relations, but not much else. [See "Tinker, Banker, Neocon, Spy," tap, Nov. 18.] "The [INC's] intelligence isn't reliable at all," says Cannistraro. "Much of it is propaganda. Much of it is telling the Defense Department what they want to hear. And much of it is used to support Chalabi's own presidential ambitions. They make no distinction between intelligence and propaganda, using alleged informants and defectors who say what Chalabi wants them to say, [creating] cooked information that goes right into presidential and vice-presidential speeches."

Adds Cannistraro, "They're willing to twist information in order to serve that interest. They've opened up a channel at the Pentagon to collect intelligence from Iraqi exiles, using people off the books, contractors. It's getting pretty close to an Iran-Contra type of situation."

Manipulating the CIA is nothing new, of course. For decades, politicians annoyed that intelligence from the agency might work against policy goals have sought to bring pressure to bear on the CIA to alter its views or, failing that, to diminish the CIA's standing. During the Vietnam War, the Pentagon disparaged CIA analyses that cast into doubt the projected "light at the end of the tunnel." In the 1970s, then-CIA Director George H.W. Bush invited a so-called Team B group of neoconservative hawks to spin out a report accusing the CIA ("Team A") of consistently underestimating the Soviet threat. (Team B, it's worth noting, was created at the instigation of Albert Wohlstetter, the political godfather to Perle, Wolfowitz, et al.) That pressure continued, in other forms, during Ronald Reagan's military buildup in the 1980s. In the 1980s, too, then-CIA Director Bill Casey was notorious for constantly trying to politicize the CIA, repeatedly trying to influence the agency's reporting on Central America, Afghanistan and the Soviet Union.

The Uses of Endless War
The hostility by the hard-liners against what they see as the CIA's myopia on Iraq at least matches any of those earlier fights. Perle, who said recently that the CIA's analysis of Iraq "isn't worth the paper it's written on," adds that the CIA is afraid of rocking the ark in the Middle East. "The CIA is status-quo oriented," he told me. "They don't want to take risks. They don't like the INC because they only like to work with people they can control."

According to informed sources, Perle, who's currently based at the conservative American Enterprise Institute (AEI), has for the past several years sponsored the work of a former CIA clandestine operative, Reuel Marc Gerecht, helping him financially, lending him the use of his villa in France to write a book and getting him a fellowship at AEI. Gerecht, who spends much of his time living in Brussels, maintains close ties to the INC via its centers in London and Washington. According to a person familiar with the arrangement, Gerecht is privately working with the INC's intelligence people to help funnel information to Feith's office in the Pentagon.

Asked whether he is working as an unofficial intelligence handler for the INC, Gerecht demurs but doesn't deny it. "It's pretty overstated," he says. "I talk to the Iraqi opposition now and then, but there are a lot more people in Washington who talk to the Iraqi opposition. So I don't think that Pentagon requires my assistance ... in gathering information from Iraqi opposition." But Gerecht is quick to criticize the CIA over Iraq. "There is a great deal of hesitancy if not opposition to the war at the agency," he says. "I don't think [Rumsfeld] is terribly happy. The collective output that CIA puts out is usually pretty mushy. I think it's fair to say that the civilian leadership isn't terribly cracked up about the intelligence they receive from CIA."

To call Gerecht a hard-liner on Iraq would be an understatement. For him and for many of his allies -- Perle, Wolfowitz, Feith and others -- an attack on Iraq is a strategic necessity, not because Saddam Hussein is a threat but because America needs to display an overwhelming show of force to keep unruly Arabs and Muslims all over the world in line. "If we really intend to extinguish the hope that has fueled the rise of al-Qaeda and violent anti-Americanism throughout the Middle East, we have no choice but to re-instill in our foes and friends the fear and respect that attaches to any great power," he wrote in The Wall Street Journal last December. "Only a war against Saddam Hussein will decisively restore the awe that protects American interests abroad and citizens at home. We've been running from this fight for 10 years."

The Pentagon's campaign against the CIA is broader than just Iraq. Since the end of the Cold War, the CIA has been squeezed by the military again and again. Through its control over the National Security Agency, the National Imagery and Mapping Agency, the National Reconnaissance Office, the Defense Intelligence Agency and other entities, the Pentagon already controls the vast bulk of America's spy budget. To consolidate that control, Rumsfeld is currently pushing to create an intelligence czar at the Pentagon whose power and influence would rival that of the CIA director's. And more and more often, the CIA's covert-operations arm finds itself dominated by the Defense Department's Special Forces units, the gung-ho soldiers who've been on the front lines in the ongoing, and apparently endless, war on terrorism.

What's at stake here is far greater than a bureaucratic turf battle. The CIA exists to provide pure and unbiased intelligence to its chief customer, the president. George W. Bush, whose knowledge of world affairs is limited at best, probably depends more heavily than most presidents on what his aides tell him about the outside world. And there is mounting evidence that the decision to go to war is based on intelligence of doubtful veracity, which has been cooked by Pentagon hawks.

Robert Dreyfuss



Hugo Chavez

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #71 on: January 04, 2007, 05:49:30 PM »
Beach??? John Kerry  ::) Oh Brother ::) I must be wrong ::)

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #72 on: January 04, 2007, 05:54:29 PM »
"Ten years after the Gulf War and Saddam is still there and still continues to stockpile weapons of mass destruction. Now there are suggestions he is working with al Qaeda, which means the very terrorists who attacked the United States last September may now have access to chemical and biological weapons." 
 
James P. Rubin, President Clinton's State Department spokesman
In a PBS documentary titled "Saddam's Ultimate Solution"
July 11, 2002
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/shows/saddam/

Hugo Chavez

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #73 on: January 04, 2007, 05:56:51 PM »
More corroboration of the Frontline Doc....

CIA Warned Bush of No Weapons in Iraq: Retired Official 
 
 
The Central Intelligence Agency warned US President George W. Bush before the Iraq war that it had reliable information the government of Saddam Hussein had no weapons of mass destruction, a retired CIA operative disclosed.



The war in Iraq was coming and they were looking for intelligence to fit into the policy.
 
Tyler Drumheller
retired CIA operative
But the operative, Tyler Drumheller, said top White House officials simply brushed off the warning, saying they were "no longer interested" in intelligence and that the policy toward Iraq had been already set.

The disclosure, made in an interview with CBS's "60 Minutes" program due to be broadcast late Sunday, adds to earlier accusations that the Bush administration used intelligence selectively as it built its case for the March 2003 invasion of Iraq and the toppling of Saddam's regime.

The administration claimed in the run-up to the war that Baghdad had extensive stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons and was working clandestinely to build a nuclear arsenal, therefore, presenting a threat to the world.

An extensive CIA-led probe undertaken after the US military took control of Iraq failed to turn up any such weapons. But Bush and other members of his administration have blamed the fiasco on a massive intelligence failure and vehemently denied manipulating information they had been provided.

However, Drumheller, who was a top CIA liaison officer in Europe before the war, insisted Bush had been explicitly warned well before an invasion order was given that the United States may not find the suspected weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

The information about the absence of the suspected weapons in Iraq, according to excerpts of Drumheller's remarks, was clandestinely provided to the United States by former Iraqi foreign minister Naji Sabri, who doubled as a covert intelligence agent for Western services.

Then-CIA director George Tenet immediately delivered this report to Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and other high-ranking administration officials, but the information was dismissed, Drumheller said.

"The group that was dealing with preparation for the Iraq war came back and said they were no longer interested," the former CIA official recalled. "And we said 'Well, what about the intel?' And they said 'Well, this isn't about intel anymore. This is about regime change.'"

Drumheller said the White House did not want any additional data from Sabri because, as he pointed out, "the policy was set."

"The war in Iraq was coming and they were looking for intelligence to fit into the policy," he argued.

The CIA declined to comment on the disclosure.

Drumheller admitted that Sabri was just one source, but pointed out that the administration would not shy away from other single-source information if it suited its policy goals.

"They certainly took information that came from single sources on the yellowcake story and on several other stories with no corroboration at all," he complained.

The White House had embraced a British report that Iraq had purchased 500 tons of uranium from the African nation of guy, allegedly to restart its nuclear weapons program.

A special CIA envoy Joseph Wilson, who made a secret trip to guy in late 2002 to verify the report, dismissed it as unfounded -- much to the displeasure of the White House.

Drumheller, who retired from the agency last year, is the second high-ranking ex-CIA official to criticize the administration's use of intelligence in months leading up to the war.

Paul Pillar, who was the national intelligence officer for the Near East and South Asia from 2000 to 2005, wrote in the March-April issue of Foreign Affairs magazine that the White House was "cherry-picking" information and that "intelligence was misused publicly to justify decisions already made."

There was no immediate reaction from the White House to the latest charges.
 

Hugo Chavez

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Re: What Democrats Said About The War In Iraq
« Reply #74 on: January 04, 2007, 06:01:32 PM »
"Ten years after the Gulf War and Saddam is still there and still continues to stockpile weapons of mass destruction. Now there are suggestions he is working with al Qaeda, which means the very terrorists who attacked the United States last September may now have access to chemical and biological weapons." 
 
James P. Rubin, President Clinton's State Department spokesman
In a PBS documentary titled "Saddam's Ultimate Solution"
July 11, 2002
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/shows/saddam/
If you would bother to review the frontline doc and info I posted, you would clearly see this statement is derived from lies drummed up with false Intel out of the pentagon