Can We talk about Building Solid "clean" Mass?

[Lugar]

Just thought we could get some insight on what people do to finagle their training, rest and most importantly, dietarty habits to GROW...clean, with as much new mass as possible.  So many cutting threads, I thought this might shed some light on how the "pros" do it....thoughts?

I am 6'2, 165lb and about 8%....very anal about eating 100% clean, so I almost feel like I am burning the candle at both ends........

[Royalty]

I think and increase of complex carbs is the most important thing a person can do to get growing again.

Focus on: Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Potatos, and Yams.

I think the best protein sources are: Salmon, Ckicken, and Eggs. I do eat beef once a week though.

[MCWAY]

Just thought we could get some insight on what people do to finagle their training, rest and most importantly, dietarty habits to GROW...clean, with as much new mass as possible.  So many cutting threads, I thought this might shed some light on how the "pros" do it....thoughts?

I am 6'2, 165lb and about 8%....very anal about eating 100% clean, so I almost feel like I am burning the candle at both ends........

Perhaps it's time for you to eat "dirty". When I weighed 165 lbs, I felt like a twig and I'm only 5'9". Here is what I posted from what I posted in a thread from the Natural Bodybuilding Forum, entitled "I assume that most are HARD-GAINERS":

For all the so-called Hardgainers out there, I suggest you go back to the archives of MuscleMag International and look up some of Greg Zulak's articles on gaining size. My personal favorite is issue 145, his article on "Alternates".

It has a section on training and diet. Both will be of HUGE help to "hardgainers", no need for "Heavy Duty" or "H.I.T." In fact, Alternates involves training antagonistic body parts, with a rest period of 1-2 minutes between sets (i.e. chest and back, biceps and triceps, quads and hamstrings). I don't go to failure; to me, it's not necessary.

When it comes to calories, the basis is simple: it's all about gradually ingesting more calories in order to gain size. Remember John Parillo, the guy who had his clients consuming up to 10,000 calories per day.

Many critics, including Masters National champion, Jeff Everson and Ms. International, Tonya Knight, blasted Parillo for his dietary recommendations. But, it got many a "hardgainer" to pack on the pounds and achieve size and mass they never thought possible.

Go for six meals a day: Eat three of them; drink three of them. And, gradually bump up the calories. If 4000 calories don't get it done, go up to 4500; if that fails; go to 5000.....

The good thing about being an ectomorph, especially if you're young, is that you can ingest the calorie-dense foods needed for mass (whole eggs, beef, whole milk, etc.). Add three servings of a quality weight-gainer to the equation and you're in business. When I was doing the 6500-calories-per-day thing, half of those calories came from weight gainer (Mega Mass 2000, at that time)......

Above all, you have to be patient. As Zulak says, if you put on 30 lbs. in six months to a year, half of that might be fat. But, you'll be bigger and stronger, overall, and more filled out. Nobody puts on pure muscle all of the time. That doesn't mean turn yourself into a suckling pig, but don't be afraid of a little bodyfat....

[Lugar]

I think and increase of complex carbs is the most important thing a person can do to get growing again.

Focus on: Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Potatos, and Yams.

I think the best protein sources are: Salmon, Ckicken, and Eggs. I do eat beef once a week though.

Very nice suggestion.......and very true.  I have seen no real benefit of consuming 200-250g of protein versus 350-400, but when you crank up the carbs, the bodyweight and size seem to come pretty fast.  My only dilema is that I sit in an office all day, so I feel like a fat sack of shit when I just consume a boat load of meals and carbs for doing nothing....now, If I worked construction, that may be a different story........

[Lugar]

Perhaps it's time for you to eat "dirty". When I weighed 165 lbs, I felt like a twig and I'm only 5'9". Here is what I posted from what I posted in a thread from the Natural Bodybuilding Forum, entitled "I assume that most are HARD-GAINERS":

For all the so-called Hardgainers out there, I suggest you go back to the archives of MuscleMag International and look up some of Greg Zulak's articles on gaining size. My personal favorite is issue 145, his article on "Alternates".

It has a section on training and diet. Both will be of HUGE help to "hardgainers", no need for "Heavy Duty" or "H.I.T." In fact, Alternates involves training antagonistic body parts, with a rest period of 1-2 minutes between sets (i.e. chest and back, biceps and triceps, quads and hamstrings). I don't go to failure; to me, it's not necessary.

When it comes to calories, the basis is simple: it's all about gradually ingesting more calories in order to gain size. Remember John Parillo, the guy who had his clients consuming up to 10,000 calories per day.

Many critics, including Masters National champion, Jeff Everson and Ms. International, Tonya Knight, blasted Parillo for his dietary recommendations. But, it got many a "hardgainer" to pack on the pounds and achieve size and mass they never thought possible.

Go for six meals a day: Eat three of them; drink three of them. And, gradually bump up the calories. If 4000 calories don't get it done, go up to 4500; if that fails; go to 5000.....

The good thing about being an ectomorph, especially if you're young, is that you can ingest the calorie-dense foods needed for mass (whole eggs, beef, whole milk, etc.). Add three servings of a quality weight-gainer to the equation and you're in business. When I was doing the 6500-calories-per-day thing, half of those calories came from weight gainer (Mega Mass 2000, at that time)......

Above all, you have to be patient. As Zulak says, if you put on 30 lbs. in six months to a year, half of that might be fat. But, you'll be bigger and stronger, overall, and more filled out. Nobody puts on pure muscle all of the time. That doesn't mean turn yourself into a suckling pig, but don't be afraid of a little bodyfat....

Interesting, would you post up your diet and stats, theories?  My problem is that I am NOT a hardgainer......I actually have fat kid syndrome.  BUT, I am a hard eater.  Meaning I am 100% clean, weigh all my foods, check out my abs every chance I get to make sure they arent fading, etc.  So much so that's it's killed my progress, made my weight sink, turned me to an anerexic, and now I come to you guys for help and guidance ELSE I'll prob. need to seek therapy.

I just got so friggn pissed when my abs fade that it's disgusting.  I think it's because I am so anal about my diet and so strict in training 6x a week, cardio 7x a week, that I have this mindset that goes "Shit, if my abs are fading now, and I train my ass off with weights and cardio, PLUS I eat 100% clean, what the hell is going to happen if I try and cut down the road?"...........I need some help......It would be a different animal if I ate shitty and trained here or there, but I am dedicated as hell.  Catch my drift?

[MCWAY]

Interesting, would you post up your diet and stats, theories?  My problem is that I am NOT a hardgainer......I actually have fat kid syndrome.  BUT, I am a hard eater.  Meaning I am 100% clean, weigh all my foods, check out my abs every chance I get to make sure they arent fading, etc.  So much so that's it's killed my progress, made my weight sink, turned me to an anerexic, and now I come to you guys for help and guidance ELSE I'll prob. need to seek therapy.

I just got so friggn pissed when my abs fade that it's disgusting.  I think it's because I am so anal about my diet and so strict in training 6x a week, cardio 7x a week, that I have this mindset that goes "Shit, if my abs are fading now, and I train my ass off with weights and cardio, PLUS I eat 100% clean, what the hell is going to happen if I try and cut down the road?"...........I need some help......It would be a different animal if I ate shitty and trained here or there, but I am dedicated as hell.  Catch my drift?

It appears as though you're going a bit bananas with the cardio. You must decide which is your top priority: gaining mass or being ripped. As mentioned earlier, there is definitely no need to become porcine in quest of size. But, adding quality will take some work, and a little bodyfat will likely accompany it.

You may be best served to consume a thermogenic/fat-burner-type supplement with your increased calories (i.e. Rev XP, ThermoGain, or ThermoDynamX). I've done that in the past and obtained good results. I've taken a break from the fat-burners, but I'll be using them again fairly soon.

As for my diet, right now, I consume 7 meals per day (3 solid, 4 liquid), which goes something like this:

Meal #1: Breakfast - Turkey sausage, eggs, milk, oatmeal

Meal #2: MRP (MET-Rx, MyoPlex, or what I'm currently using, MESO-TECH).

Meal# 3: Lunch - Fish, chicken or beef, salad, rice

Meal #4: MRP

Meal #5: Fish, chicken or beef, salad, cooked vegetables

Meal #6: Whey protein shake (or RTD)

Workout

Meal #7: CELL-TECH*, Whey protein shake (or RTD)

*: When loading, a serving of CELL-TECH is taken before breakfast.

That's been doing the trick for me, along with some other supplements: Tribulus Terrestris, ALC, Vitamin C, and (as of a week ago), Leukic.

As for my stats, I'm 5'9", 237 lbs, currently with 18" arms (which I'm hoping to get to 18^1/2 or 19" by the end of the year). This would be my "off-season" bodyweight, if you will.

Dedication is great. But, there's a time to be dedicated to mass and another time to be dedicated to getting ripped. If you put on bodyweight as easily as you say, I'd definitely recommend you keep (but drastically reduce) your cardio and take a fat-burner. Definitely use some creatine; I recommend CELL-TECH myself.

If you're concerned about the dextrose and calories in CELL-TECH, don't be. I used it, while trimming down last year, and lost 25 lbs. in three months, regaining my lost strength and maintaining it, thereafter. Simply balance your calories, as I did, removing carbs from regular meals to allow for the dextrose in MuscleTech's creatine cocktail.

The post I pasted here earlier is primarily for self-proclaimed hardgainers, who often lament about their struggles to gain size. This advice from the article I cited is near and dear to me, because it put me on the inside track to getting bigger.

[Lugar]

u gotta have a meal post workout, no??/

[youandme]

You can do a clean diet but how long will it last?
You shouldtry to cut out sugars other than PO,and then have a clean meals, and then every other a higher calorie meal, it depends on your weight though, when wanting to gain you have to eat plenty of the right food and know when to eat the not so good foodfor best results. Not so good food can be a variety of healthy things that are clean just not loaded with trans fat and sugar, almonds and cottatge cheese with natural jelly, stuff like that to keep full.MCWAY's diet is very clean and a good base for a healthy diet adding protein shakes that you sip through the day will help, as well as adding more milk also at night and then mix honey in the milk to gain more weight.

[Lugar]

1/2 cup egg whites
1/2 cup oats - sometimes I nix the oats for 1.5tsp of flax
1/2 cup skim
1 SCOOP PRO COMPLEX---
JAM/JELLY SF

10AM
3/4 CUP OATS
1/2 cup egg whites
1/2 cup skim
1 scoop pro
 
1pm
2OZ FLANK STEAK
4 OZ CHICKEN BREAST
4OZ COOKED WW PASTA
LARGE SALAD, VEGIES---

 

TRAIN 5:30,6PM - 7:15-730 (5 DAYS, 6 CARDIO)---

6:30
1/2 cup oats
2 SCOOPS WHEY
20G OF DEXTROSE




9:
1 CUP COTTAGE CHEESE
20 almonds and peanuts
1 SCOOP CASEIN
1 CUP SKIM--- 

[youandme]

Why so strict though?
The servings are smallbut it looks good bit more protein higher amounts in the meals

[Lugar]

what do I need?  1,000 more cals?  two meals or more of quatntity in meals?  you r the first to tell me my diet doesnt look like a woman's cutting diet...cmon....be honsest with me....esp. on 300mg of test/week....

[danielson]

Interesting, would you post up your diet and stats, theories?  My problem is that I am NOT a hardgainer......I actually have fat kid syndrome.  BUT, I am a hard eater.  Meaning I am 100% clean, weigh all my foods, check out my abs every chance I get to make sure they arent fading, etc.  So much so that's it's killed my progress, made my weight sink, turned me to an anerexic, and now I come to you guys for help and guidance ELSE I'll prob. need to seek therapy.

I just got so friggn pissed when my abs fade that it's disgusting.  I think it's because I am so anal about my diet and so strict in training 6x a week, cardio 7x a week, that I have this mindset that goes "Shit, if my abs are fading now, and I train my ass off with weights and cardio, PLUS I eat 100% clean, what the hell is going to happen if I try and cut down the road?"...........I need some help......It would be a different animal if I ate shitty and trained here or there, but I am dedicated as hell.  Catch my drift?

You sound like you may have ocd. Just say the fuck with your abs for a month or so and eat what you want(alot of it) and see what happens.

[Princess L]

My problem is that I am NOT a hardgainer......I actually have fat kid syndrome. 

 

There’s the final piece of the explanation I’ve been waiting for.

turned me to an anerexic, and now I come to you guys for help and guidance ELSE I'll prob. need to seek therapy.

IMO this is what you need, not diet advice ~ you’ve got enough of that.

I just got so friggn pissed when my abs fade that it's disgusting.  I think it's because I am so anal about my diet and so strict in training 6x a week, cardio 7x a week, that I have this mindset that goes "Shit, if my abs are fading now, and I train my ass off with weights and cardio, PLUS I eat 100% clean, what the hell is going to happen if I try and cut down the road?"...........I need some help......

[gibberj2]

diet and training is all about each individual. A smaller guy cannot handle the training volume that a much bigger more developed guy can. much less a natural guy compared to a guy on juice. that's the mistake many make. it's like a beginner trying to train in chess or something the way a master would. as far as how you feel psychologically, forget about that, look at how you look. everyone NEEDS (by the way they feel) a different amount of carbs. consume enough to not feel depleted throughout the day and protein maybe 1.5g/lb of bodyweight. every two weeks look at how fat you get. if you gained more fat than you think you should have cut the total calories a little bit. I know you wanna grow so stop that cardio. you're 170 and 8% bodyfat (according to what you said) for Christ sake. don't eat girly food, eat whole eggs and beef and stuff like that.

[MCWAY]

what do I need?  1,000 more cals?  two meals or more of quatntity in meals?  you r the first to tell me my diet doesnt look like a woman's cutting diet...cmon....be honsest with me....esp. on 300mg of test/week....

Again, REDUCE THE CARDIO and, yes, consume more calories. At 6'2" and 165 lbs, you can gain at least 35 lbs and still have abs. Start with an extra 500 calories and see if that works. If it doesn't then bump it up to 1000 calories. Look for a fat-burner to use as well.

Personally, I don't see the need for anabolics. There's plenty of mass that you can gain without them, on a frame like yours.

[MCWAY]

u gotta have a meal post workout, no??/

That's what the CELL-TECH and whey protein shake are designed to be (Meal #7). You can, of course, eat after that. But, research and my personal experience have shown that the best time to consume post-workout calories is within 45 minutes after you hit the iron.

And, of course, drinking calories is a lot faster and easier than eating them, especially in that particular scenario.

[triple_pickle]

I am 6'2, 165lb and about 8%....very anal about eating 100% clean....

brutal mass.  keep on eating clean and you will never grow....

if your goal is to gain pounds, eat beyond your satiation point, one-two mouthfulls more after you have reached the "i'm full and can't take no more" state....

[gibberj2]

OMG i thought this dude was 6'2" 170. now i see he's 165??  i'll say it again. he's WAY overtraining. does anyone else find it insane he's talking about taking test?

for a guy his size to grow some muscle he won't need more than like 2900 calories really. i think 250g of protein would be perfect. also i think key would be that muscle groups NOT be trained twice a week and 6 days a week training is INSANE. when are people gonna realize that random skinny guys who work out CANNOT work out like the pros in the magazines and MUCH LESS do an hour of cardio a day. i'd say this guy should do like 9 sets per bodypart (12 TOPS) go heavy one week and lighter the other. for example One week is 4 sets of squats, 3 sets of lunges, 2 sets of extensions and then maybe 3 supersets of SL Deads with legcurl superset and the next week high rep stuff with more focus on hams. For back one week pullups and rows and the next week deadlifts with rows. also training to failure on only one or two sets but no more. training almost every set to failure is the best way to overtrain.

[Lugar]

tell me I'm not taking in a miniumum of 3K in cals and I havent gained more than 2lbs.....It's the loss of abs that truly will kill me....nothing else....it's a fixation....a mental block....once they fade and Iam ok with it, I'll be 225...u watch.

[gibberj2]

225 eh? you've been training a while i can percieve and are only 165. i dont see 225 (non-fat) in your future without drugs and about 6 more years training. You will lose the RIPPED abs but they don't have to be completely lost. you'll see them when you flex. 3K calories isn't overdoing it. it's probably the right amount for you. since you're naturally a lean guy to get your abs back you will only have to bring your calories back down to 2400 or so. maybe you could also give yourself a limit to how high you'll let your bodyfat go. if you are so afraid of getting fat then whenever your bodyfat reaches 12 drop your calories by 600 until you get back down to 8%.

[Lugar]

12%, lol...I dont know if Ive even been over 10%!

Adding a jar a peanut butter each day....my goal is to knock it out thriughout the day, whether it's 1/2 jar in one sitting, or 200 spoonfulls...........

[gibberj2]

why would you want peanut butter calories? just eat the right stuff but more of it. a whole jar of peanut butter has over 6000 calories. you won't have room for any real food. i think if you did the peanut butter thing you'd get fat a lot faster (i know cause it happened to me but it wasn't just peanut butter it was chinese food too ). It's really not that hard to eat 2900 calories. if you eat 5 times a day that's less than 600 each meal and if you eat 6 times it's like 480. if you are so terrified of getting fat then your diet has to be clean. if you're worried about getting too fat just measure your bodyfat every 2 weeks. if it's getting higher too fast drop the calories a little. if it's not changing but your weight goes up then great, that's exactly what you want. most important than the scale though will be tape measurements. who cares what the scale says if you tape measure your waist and it's not growing too much and then you see your arms growing and everything else.

[Purge_WTF]

  I bulked up with excessive calories and I've had to lose 92 pounds so far, and I'm still not done cutting.

  The next time I bulk, I'll do it more slowly and with cleaner foods. I have a few bottles of Superdrol left over too, so that should help. McWay's advice to use fat-burners alongside your bulking cycle is valid too; I'll probably use Sesathin.

[Lugar]

looking at my diet, u think Im around 3,200?

[gibberj2]

no clue. when you  made those measurements of food did you just do it random? they say to get big you should eat an amount of calories 18X your weight. For you 18X165=2970 

That diet you got did you put it together recently for the purpose of getting bigger? i'd measure all bodyparts, weigh myself and take my bodyfat; keep the diet like it is and in 2 weeks measure everything again and start changing it then.

WTF is right when I tried "bulking" I ended up with a 36 inch waist and no more muscle than I would have had if I ate less and cleaner. muscle doesn't grow overnight so eating insane amounts of food won't have it all go into the muscles. I'm still trying to lose 3 inches on my waist. when i got up to 192 i thought i was big but i was just fat. had i been 180 my muscles would have been the exact same size. before i started working out or eating more my waist was 28. I'm trying to get it back to 30.