Author Topic: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act  (Read 3981 times)

ribonucleic

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Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« on: March 20, 2007, 11:38:04 AM »
The righties keep saying how Bush had unlimited discretion in firing those attorneys. Not so...

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 Some crimes that a special prosecutor might one day look at:

1. Misrepresentations to Congress. The relevant provision, 18 U.S.C. § 1505, is very broad. It is illegal to lie to Congress, and also to “impede” it in getting information. Deputy Attorney General Paul McNulty indicated to Congress that the White House’s involvement in firing the United States attorneys was minimal, something that Justice Department e-mail messages suggest to be untrue.

Attorney General Alberto Gonzales made his own dubious assertion to Congress: “I would never, ever make a change in a United States attorney position for political reasons.”

The administration appears to be trying to place all of the blame on Mr. Gonzales’s chief of staff, Kyle Sampson, who resigned after reportedly failing to inform top Justice Department officials about the White House’s role in the firings. If Mr. Sampson withheld the information from Mr. McNulty, who then misled Congress, Mr. Sampson may have violated § 1505.

But Mr. Sampson’s lawyer now says other top Justice Department officials knew of the White House’s role. Senator Charles Schumer, Democrat of New York, said last week that “Kyle Sampson will not be the next Scooter Libby, the next fall guy.” Congress will be looking for evidence that Mr. Gonzales and Mr. McNulty knew that what they told Congress was false or misleading.

Convictions of this kind are not common, but they happen. Just ask former White House aide David Safavian, who was convicted last year of making false statements to a Senate committee.

2. Calling the Prosecutors. As part of the Sarbanes-Oxley reforms, Congress passed an extremely broad obstruction of justice provision, 18 U.S.C. § 1512 (c), which applies to anyone who corruptly “obstructs, influences, or impedes any official proceeding, or attempts to do so,” including U.S. attorney investigations.

David Iglesias, the New Mexico United States attorney, says Senator Pete Domenici, Republican of New Mexico, called him and asked whether he intended to bring indictments in a corruption case against Democrats before last November’s election. Mr. Iglesias said he “felt pressured” by the call. If members of Congress try to get a United States attorney to indict people he wasn’t certain he wanted to indict, or try to affect the timing of an indictment, they may be violating the law.

3. Witness Tampering. 18 U.S.C. § 1512 (b) makes it illegal to intimidate Congressional witnesses. Michael Elston, Mr. McNulty’s chief of staff, contacted one of the fired attorneys, H. E. Cummins, and suggested, according to Mr. Cummins, that if he kept speaking out, there would be retaliation. Mr. Cummins took the call as a threat, and sent an e-mail message to other fired prosecutors warning them of it. Several of them told Congress that if Mr. Elston had placed a similar call to one of their witnesses in a criminal case, they would have opened an investigation of it.

4. Firing the Attorneys. United States attorneys can be fired whenever a president wants, but not, as § 1512 (c) puts it, to corruptly obstruct, influence, or impede an official proceeding.

Let’s take the case of Carol Lam, United States attorney in San Diego. The day the news broke that Ms. Lam, who had already put one Republican congressman in jail, was investigating a second one, Mr. Sampson wrote an e-mail message referring to the “real problem we have right now with Carol Lam.” He said it made him think that it was time to start looking for a replacement. Congress has also started investigating the removal of Fred Black, the United States attorney in Guam, who was replaced when he began investigating the Republican lobbyist Jack Abramoff. Anyone involved in firing a United States attorney to obstruct or influence an official proceeding could have broken the law.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/19/opinion/19mon4.html?ex=1331956800&en=ffab854496251b4b&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2007, 11:42:43 AM »
clinton got a blowjob, who cares

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2007, 11:45:53 AM »
The righties keep saying how Bush had unlimited discretion in firing those attorneys. Not so...

--------------

 Some crimes that a special prosecutor might one day look at:

1. Misrepresentations to Congress. The relevant provision, 18 U.S.C. § 1505, is very broad. It is illegal to lie to Congress, and also to “impede” it in getting information. Deputy Attorney General Paul McNulty indicated to Congress that the White House’s involvement in firing the United States attorneys was minimal, something that Justice Department e-mail messages suggest to be untrue.

Attorney General Alberto Gonzales made his own dubious assertion to Congress: “I would never, ever make a change in a United States attorney position for political reasons.”

The administration appears to be trying to place all of the blame on Mr. Gonzales’s chief of staff, Kyle Sampson, who resigned after reportedly failing to inform top Justice Department officials about the White House’s role in the firings. If Mr. Sampson withheld the information from Mr. McNulty, who then misled Congress, Mr. Sampson may have violated § 1505.

But Mr. Sampson’s lawyer now says other top Justice Department officials knew of the White House’s role. Senator Charles Schumer, Democrat of New York, said last week that “Kyle Sampson will not be the next Scooter Libby, the next fall guy.” Congress will be looking for evidence that Mr. Gonzales and Mr. McNulty knew that what they told Congress was false or misleading.

Convictions of this kind are not common, but they happen. Just ask former White House aide David Safavian, who was convicted last year of making false statements to a Senate committee.

2. Calling the Prosecutors. As part of the Sarbanes-Oxley reforms, Congress passed an extremely broad obstruction of justice provision, 18 U.S.C. § 1512 (c), which applies to anyone who corruptly “obstructs, influences, or impedes any official proceeding, or attempts to do so,” including U.S. attorney investigations.

David Iglesias, the New Mexico United States attorney, says Senator Pete Domenici, Republican of New Mexico, called him and asked whether he intended to bring indictments in a corruption case against Democrats before last November’s election. Mr. Iglesias said he “felt pressured” by the call. If members of Congress try to get a United States attorney to indict people he wasn’t certain he wanted to indict, or try to affect the timing of an indictment, they may be violating the law.

3. Witness Tampering. 18 U.S.C. § 1512 (b) makes it illegal to intimidate Congressional witnesses. Michael Elston, Mr. McNulty’s chief of staff, contacted one of the fired attorneys, H. E. Cummins, and suggested, according to Mr. Cummins, that if he kept speaking out, there would be retaliation. Mr. Cummins took the call as a threat, and sent an e-mail message to other fired prosecutors warning them of it. Several of them told Congress that if Mr. Elston had placed a similar call to one of their witnesses in a criminal case, they would have opened an investigation of it.

4. Firing the Attorneys. United States attorneys can be fired whenever a president wants, but not, as § 1512 (c) puts it, to corruptly obstruct, influence, or impede an official proceeding.

Let’s take the case of Carol Lam, United States attorney in San Diego. The day the news broke that Ms. Lam, who had already put one Republican congressman in jail, was investigating a second one, Mr. Sampson wrote an e-mail message referring to the “real problem we have right now with Carol Lam.” He said it made him think that it was time to start looking for a replacement. Congress has also started investigating the removal of Fred Black, the United States attorney in Guam, who was replaced when he began investigating the Republican lobbyist Jack Abramoff. Anyone involved in firing a United States attorney to obstruct or influence an official proceeding could have broken the law.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/19/opinion/19mon4.html?ex=1331956800&en=ffab854496251b4b&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

Legitimate issues.  Not proved.  Let the facts come in. 

ribonucleic

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2007, 12:13:04 PM »
Let the facts come in. 

By all means.  :)

So you'll join us in criticizing Bush if he tries to keep Rove from testifying under oath by asserting "executive privilege"?

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2007, 12:14:35 PM »
By all means.  :)

So you'll join us in criticizing Bush if he tries to keep Rove from testifying under oath by asserting "executive privilege"?

That will depend on why he asserts "executive privilege" and whether I think it's appropriate or not.   

ribonucleic

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2007, 12:26:49 PM »
That will depend on why he asserts "executive privilege" and whether I think it's appropriate or not.   

And what non-covering-up-criminal-activity reason could Bush possibly have for asserting that "privilege"?  :)

Wait, let me guess! "National security"!

LOL

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2007, 12:32:47 PM »
And what non-covering-up-criminal-activity reason could Bush possibly have for asserting that "privilege"?  :)

Wait, let me guess! "National security"!

LOL

You're assuming there was "criminal activity."  I typically like to have the facts first before forming my opinion.  It helps a lot.   :)

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2007, 12:35:29 PM »
You're assuming there was "criminal activity."

When it comes to the neofascists, I've found it to be a real time-saver.  ;D

ribonucleic

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2007, 12:50:16 PM »
Gee, what a surprise.  ::)

-------------------------

The White House offered Tuesday to make political strategist Karl Rove and former counsel Harriet Miers available for interviews - but not testimony under oath - before congressional committees investigating the firing of eight federal prosecutors...  "Such interviews would be private and conducted without the need for an oath, transcript, subsequent testimony, or the subsequent issuance of subpoenas".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20070320/fired-prosecutors

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2007, 01:57:07 PM »
Historically speaking, hasn't this been the process whenever a new administration moves in?  Kinda like when a sports team gets a new coach, the coach usually brings in his own staff because they know his playbook and he trusts that they'll carry out his plan? 

I don't know all of the facts, but I thought for sure that President Clinton removed almost all (if not all) of the prosecutors when he came to office back in his day?  Was there any fuss then?  I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just thinking that this was the case.  I don't remember if there was any fuss back then. 

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2007, 01:58:15 PM »
Historically speaking, hasn't this been the process whenever a new administration moves in?  Kinda like when a sports team gets a new coach, the coach usually brings in his own staff because they know his playbook and he trusts that they'll carry out his plan? 

I don't know all of the facts, but I thought for sure that President Clinton removed almost all (if not all) of the prosecutors when he came to office back in his day?  Was there any fuss then?  I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just thinking that this was the case.  I don't remember if there was any fuss back then. 

Clinton did that,  but i think it's how they were removed in this case

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2007, 02:01:21 PM »
Historically speaking, hasn't this been the process whenever a new administration moves in?  Kinda like when a sports team gets a new coach, the coach usually brings in his own staff because they know his playbook and he trusts that they'll carry out his plan? 

I don't know all of the facts, but I thought for sure that President Clinton removed almost all (if not all) of the prosecutors when he came to office back in his day?  Was there any fuss then?  I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just thinking that this was the case.  I don't remember if there was any fuss back then. 

You are correct.  U.S. Attorneys are political appointees and serve at the pleasure of the president.  They are always fired for "political reasons."  As a matter of course, every U.S. Attorney either offers his/her resignation or is asked to resign when a new administration takes over.  The only legitimate issues here are whether some of them were removed to obstruct a legitimate criminal investigation and/or whether anyone lied to Congress about it. 

 

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2007, 02:06:11 PM »
Historically speaking, hasn't this been the process whenever a new administration moves in?  Kinda like when a sports team gets a new coach, the coach usually brings in his own staff because they know his playbook and he trusts that they'll carry out his plan? 

I don't know all of the facts, but I thought for sure that President Clinton removed almost all (if not all) of the prosecutors when he came to office back in his day?  Was there any fuss then?  I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just thinking that this was the case.  I don't remember if there was any fuss back then. 

The Clinton situation isn't really analogous for a number of reasons. This isn't the start of a new administration. There is speculation that the fired attorney's were looking into Republican wrong doings. The country wasn't dealing with The Patriot Act or a War during Clinton's firings. And I don't believe Congress was lied to regarding those firings.

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2007, 02:29:39 PM »
they were removed by reagan, bush 1, clinton, and bush 2 at the START of their admins.

These were done mid-term to affect litigation in sensitive elections.  These were done to influence the legal process, slectively, to benefit republicans.  That's a no-no. 

And they lied about it ;)

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2007, 02:59:36 PM »
Leahy tells White House counsel to go fuck himself.  ;D

-------------------------------------------------------


Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy said Tuesday he does not accept the White House's offer to allow top political adviser Karl Rove and former White House counsel Harriet Miers to be interviewed by congressional committees with the caveat that the interviews not be under oath....

"It is not constructive and it is not helpful to be telling the Senate how to do our investigation, or to prejudge its outcome," said Leahy. "Instead of freely and fully providing relevant documents to the investigating committees, they have only selectively sent documents, after erasing large portions that they do not want to see the light of day."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/20/us.attorneys.firings/index.html

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2007, 03:03:17 PM »
Why won't they testify under oath?

If they have nothing to hide, it shouldn't matter.

If they do have something to hide, let's get it out there.  I don't think anyone, from either party, wants liars working in their government.  This should bring us all together.  If there was wrongdoing, let's get to the bottom of it.  Right, guys?

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2007, 03:05:32 PM »
Leahy tells White House counsel to go fuck himself.  ;D

-------------------------------------------------------


Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy said Tuesday he does not accept the White House's offer to allow top political adviser Karl Rove and former White House counsel Harriet Miers to be interviewed by congressional committees with the caveat that the interviews not be under oath....

"It is not constructive and it is not helpful to be telling the Senate how to do our investigation, or to prejudge its outcome," said Leahy. "Instead of freely and fully providing relevant documents to the investigating committees, they have only selectively sent documents, after erasing large portions that they do not want to see the light of day."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/20/us.attorneys.firings/index.html

Reading the neotaint's defense of this ought to be amusing. On second thought, they might just ignore it all together.

ribonucleic

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2007, 03:19:56 PM »
Reading the neotaint's defense of this ought to be amusing.

It's not like testifying under oath will pose any problems for them. They can just be like the Gipper and say "I don't remember" over and over again until it's time for everyone to go home.

Sure, it will stink to high heaven... but no more than everything else about their administration.

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2007, 08:06:34 PM »
it is certainly no more of a crime than lying about a nonleak
Valhalla awaits.

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2007, 09:47:36 PM »
it is certainly no more of a crime than lying about a nonleak

I don't care if he's lying about putting mayo on his ham sandwich.

He lied to congress under oath.

If that is "okay", then let's stop even making them take the oath, because it means nothing.

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2007, 09:56:43 PM »
it is certainly no more of a crime than lying about a nonleak

Tell me about it.  I hope this doesn't become another Scooter Libby situation. 

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2007, 09:58:10 PM »
really sad that you guys don't respect the oath, nor the bible they swear upon before lying.

I guess a little corruption is okay with you.

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2007, 07:31:48 AM »
I guess a little corruption is okay with you.

A little corruption, a little fag-bashing, and a little torture.

All carry the BB Seal of Approval!  ;D

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2007, 08:22:06 AM »
A little corruption, a little fag-bashing, and a little torture.

All carry the BB Seal of Approval!  ;D

 ::)

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Re: Why Attorneygate May Actually Be A Criminal Act
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2007, 01:58:06 PM »
Why won't they testify under oath?

If they have nothing to hide, it shouldn't matter.

If they do have something to hide, let's get it out there.  I don't think anyone, from either party, wants liars working in their government.  This should bring us all together.  If there was wrongdoing, let's get to the bottom of it.  Right, guys?

Because the WH doesn't want a part of this media circus witch hunt.

What goes around comes around.