Beck vs Evangelical leader

[Soul Crusher]

I also remember that the church emphasizes charity as being a volutary thing, not having the jack boot of the govt on your throat stealing your money to give it to sum bum they deem fit. 

 

[MCWAY]

I also remember that the church emphasizes charity as being a volutary thing, not having the jack boot of the govt on your throat stealing your money to give it to sum bum they deem fit. 

 

EXACTLY!! To top it all off, in the parable of the talents, Jesus states that the man with one talent (who did nothing with it) had his money taken from him and given to the one who had five (and doubled it to ten).

Notice, however, that the man who had two talents and doubled it to four RECEIVED HIS MASTER'S FAVOR, just as the man who had five talents and doubled them to ten.

[Soul Crusher]

EXACTLY!! To top it all off, in the parable of the talents, Jesus states that the man with one talent (who did nothing with it) had his money taken from him and given to the one who had five (and doubled it to ten).

Notice, however, that the man who had two talents and doubled it to four RECEIVED HIS MASTER'S FAVOR, just as the man who had five talents and doubled them to ten.

I just find it utterly amazing how progeressives/marxists like Straw will whore out the name the Jesus to promte a govt authoritarian plan all while he hates religious people and doctrine himself.

Disgusting, but typical.     

[Straw Man]

I just find it utterly amazing how progeressives/marxists like Straw will whore out the name the Jesus to promte a govt authoritarian plan all while he hates religious people and doctrine himself.

Disgusting, but typical.     

spare me the phony outrage

I never said anything about social justice in this thread - and any "meaning" you see in my posts are strictly the product of your own fevered brain

All I'm doing is asking my Christian friend McWay some questions about the bible

[Straw Man]

EXACTLY!! To top it all off, in the parable of the talents, Jesus states that the man with one talent (who did nothing with it) had his money taken from him and given to the one who had five (and doubled it to ten).

Notice, however, that the man who had two talents and doubled it to four RECEIVED HIS MASTER'S FAVOR, just as the man who had five talents and doubled them to ten.

so you're saying that the church encourages charity but there is no consequences for not being charitable, helping those less fortunate etc...?

do I understand that correctly?

[MCWAY]

so you're saying that the church encourages charity but there is no consequences for not being charitable, helping those less fortunate etc...?

do I understand that correctly?

The issue here isn't lack of consequence for not being charitable. It's about the claim that "social justice" (as defined by certain progressives and liberals) is the means for people being charitable.

It isn't the government's job to declare who's "too rich" and who isn't. Or who should get the money and who shouldn't. That's EXACTLY what Obama and his cronies are attempting to do.

Charity is based on the HEARTS of those who give, not bureaucracy......bottom line.

Lest you forget, Jesus ALSO CRITICIZED those who were being "charitable" but doing so to show off their wealth, as opposed to having genuine concern for those less fortunate. Technically, the money/grain/fooditems are given all the same. But, Jesus knew their hearts and motives.

[Straw Man]

The issue here isn't lack of consequence for not being charitable. It's about the claim that "social justice" (as defined by certain progressives and liberals).

Lest you forget, Jesus ALSO CRITICIZED those who were being "charitable" but doing so to show off their wealth, as opposed to having genuine concern for those less fortunate. Technically, the money/grain/fooditems are given all the same. But, Jesus knew their hearts and motives.

so you're saying that Jesus wanted genuine acts of charity and not just posers?

I'm still not clear whether Jesus warned of consequences for not being charitable?

[Soul Crusher]

so you're saying that Jesus wanted genuine acts of charity and not just posers?

I'm still not clear whether Jesus warned of consequences for not being charitable?

It s called trying to appeal to better part of people, not the fear of the jack booted ceasars and the praetorian guard you seem to love so much Straw. 

[Straw Man]

It s called trying to appeal to better part of people, not the fear of the jack booted ceasars and the praetorian guard you seem to love so much Straw. 

3333 - no offense but I asked McWay and not you.

I thought you were, for the most part non-religious

[Soul Crusher]

3333 - no offense but I asked McWay and not you.

I thought you were, for the most part non-religious

I'm not religious, but I defend their rights and freedom to practice religion and believe whatever they want as fiercely as i would yours, even though I think you are dead wrong on about 95% of the issues.

I detest religious people seeking to impose laws on me, but I equally loathe those who attack religious entities as well and would impose their athetistic nonsense on me just the same.

   

 

 

[Straw Man]

I'm not religious, but I defend their rights and freedom to practice religion and believe whatever they want as fiercely as i would yours, even though I think you are dead wrong on about 95% of the issues.

I detest religious people seeking to impose laws on me, but I equally loathe those who attack religious entities as well and would impose their athetistic nonsense on me just the same.

ok - so you're non-religious, but you are fine with religious people having the freedom to practice and believe what they want (I'm sure we can find a long list of exceptions but we'll ignore that for now) and you don't want religious people imposing their laws (or presumably their beliefs) on you.

I'm pretty much in complete agreement with you on that

still hoping McWay wil  help me understand the charity thing better from the fundie perspective

[Soul Crusher]

ok - so you're non-religious, but you are fine with religious people having the freedom to practice and believe what they want (I'm sure we can find a long list of exceptions but we'll ignore that for now) and you don't want religious people imposing their laws (or presumably their beliefs) on you.

I'm pretty much in complete agreement with you on that

still hoping McWay wil  help me understand the charity thing better from the fundie perspective

Ok, so now you are only wrong on 94% of stuff.        

[MCWAY]

ok - so you're non-religious, but you are fine with religious people having the freedom to practice and believe what they want (I'm sure we can find a long list of exceptions but we'll ignore that for now) and you don't want religious people imposing their laws (or presumably their beliefs) on you.

I'm pretty much in complete agreement with you on that

still hoping McWay wil  help me understand the charity thing better from the fundie perspective

I already explained it. Jesus explained about how those who are kind to the downtrodden will be viewed as giving their charitable deeds to Christ Himself.

But, that hinges on two principles:

One, the giving is, in fact, GIVING, not being fiscally sodomized by a tax-happy, left-winged/"progressive" government that has appointed itself arbitrators as to who's "rich" and who ain't.

Two, the aforementioned GIVING is done from the heart, out of kindness, not out of braggadocio or arrogrance.

As for consequences, that aforementioned parable mentions accountability of those who are cruel to the less fortunate in Matt. 25.

[Straw Man]

I already explained it. Jesus explained about how those who are kind to the downtrodden will be viewed as giving their charitable deeds to Christ Himself.

But, that hinges on two principles:

One, the giving is, in fact, GIVING, not being fiscally sodomized by a tax-happy, left-winged/"progressive" government that has appointed itself arbitrators as to who's "rich" and who ain't.

Two, the aforementioned GIVING is done from the heart, out of kindness, not out of braggadocio or arrogrance.

As for consequences, that aforementioned parable mentions accountability of those who are cruel to the less fortunate in Matt. 25.

was it a proactive thing like being "cruel" to the less fortunate or passive thing of simply not helping the less fortunate?

....

and what was the result of such actions?

[Soul Crusher]

was it a proactive thing like being "cruel" to the less fortunate or passive thing of simply not helping the less fortunate?

....

and what was the result of such actions?

Remember this phrase Straw: "The poor will always be among us"

It was true then and it is true now the difference is that religions tried to get people to volunatrily get those with means to help out the poor, not equalize poverty amongst everyone like the typical progressive marxists do. 

[MCWAY]

Remember this phrase Straw: "The poor will always be among us"

It was true then and it is true now the difference is that religions tried to get people to volunatrily get those with means to help out the poor, not equalize poverty amongst everyone like the typical progressive marxists do. 

Yep!!

And, I listed some of those examples, done by ancient Israel and the Christians of the New Testament. And, you see virtually NO government interference or mandate that wealth be siphoned from one man to be given to another.

From temple service, to redeeming childless widows, to letting the poor glean in the field to gather the excess food, we all see WORK as the driving force of society and prosperity.

[Soul Crusher]

Yep!!

And, I listed some of those examples, done by ancient Israel and the Christians of the New Testament. And, you see virtually NO government interference or mandate that wealth be siphoned from one man to be given to another.

From temple service, to redeeming childless widows, to letting the poor glean in the field to gather the excess food, we all see WORK as the driving force of society and prosperity.

I am not religious in the sense that I follow an organized religion, but I vbelieve a lot of teachings in the bible as being true and common sense. 

It is the utopian marxists/communists who are deluded into thinking they can betray reality and end up making everything worse for everyone!

[Straw Man]

Yep!!

And, I listed some of those examples, done by ancient Israel and the Christians of the New Testament. And, you see virtually NO government interference or mandate that wealth be siphoned from one man to be given to another.

From temple service, to redeeming childless widows, to letting the poor glean in the field to gather the excess food, we all see WORK as the driving force of society and prosperity.

It sounds to me like you're admitting we're not a Christian Nation?

McWay - what is the consequence in the Bible for the individual Christian who fails to help the poor, sick, etc..?

[Butterbean]

When Jesus is your friend you have unlimited access to bread, fish and wine

no work necessary

it's in teh bible

If you read John 6 (starts w/Jesus feeding the 5000) you will see that later the people follow him around for another free meal.

Jesus explains to them that their desire should be not for material things, but spiritual.

John 6:26-27
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate and had your fill.  Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life..."

So no, He's not all about the free meal w/no work.

[Butterbean]

Didn't Jesus say something to the effect that by helping others you earn your way into heaven and by not helping others you guarantee yourself a trip to hell?

No.

Eph 2:8,9
You are saved by grace through faith, and not of works so that no one can boast.


John 3:16-18For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.  For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.  Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

[Soul Crusher]

If you read John 6 (starts w/Jesus feeding the 5000) you will see that later the people follow him around for another free meal.

Jesus explains to them that their desire should be not for material things, but spiritual.

John 6:26-27
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate and had your fill.  Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life..."

So no, He's not all about the free meal w/no work.

Great quote. 

[Straw Man]

If you read John 6 (starts w/Jesus feeding the 5000) you will see that later the people follow him around for another free meal.

Jesus explains to them that their desire should be not for material things, but spiritual.

John 6:26-27
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate and had your fill.  Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life..."

So no, He's not all about the free meal w/no work.

no kidding

my post in that regard were in jest

I assumed that was obvious

still he was all about helping those less fortunate than oneself was he not?

[Butterbean]

2 Corinthians 9:7
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

[Butterbean]

no kidding

my post in that regard were in jest

I assumed that was obvious

still he was all about helping those less fortunate than oneself was he not?

I don't think it's correct to say He was "all about" helping those less fortunate if you mean by material necessities.

I see Him as being "mostly about" coming to earth to die on the cross for our sins thus making a way for those who believe to spend eternity in heaven.

But did he want us to help others less fortunate?  Yes!  But I think the argument here is "social justice" being presented as 2 diff things.  ONe side seems to see it as, let's give people things freely and not expect them to try to help themselves and the other side seems to see it as, let's give people stuff freely because some people have more than others and it isn't fair to those w/less. 

I think the question should be, who is truly in need?  And we should give to them


Take a look at

1 Timothy 5:3-6
Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need.  But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God. The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives.

[Straw Man]

I don't think it's correct to say He was "all about" helping those less fortunate if you mean by material necessities.

what is a "material" necessity?

I'm talking about the poor, the homeless, the sick, etc...

you know what I'm talking about right.

McWay even listed the part of the bible I am referring to in a earlier post

you know what I'm talking about right?