How do you NOT go to failure?

[tbombz]

most of the truly successful large and powerful men will stop 1 or 2 reps away from any form of failure. Less can be more in this regard. The CNS and it's ability to recover from a present workout and be geared for the next workout , is key to size & strength. The prime word being "Recovery". These guy's understand all of this and apply it to their workouts. Even guy's, floating in a sea of 'roids or whatever else, tend to back off of going the failure route.

this should be stickied.

Bill pearl used to say "always leave the gym with some Gas in the Tank"

great advice for a multitude of reasons.

[Attila]

  Darn I too was going to failure every set while more wieght each set. I think I've learned alot from this thread. Thanks.

[local hero]

i cant think of any bodybuilder off the top of my head who train this way..... any?

[nodeal]

All this is a personal choice. If people want to do failure every workout, than fine,. But you may be short changing yourself in the long run, if progressive gains,  from workout to workout, are the goals. If feeling a sense of adventure, try stopping 1 or 2 reps before your usual point of failure, and see how the body reacts after 2 weeks or so. Good Luck.

So I gave this a shot for both my back workout and my shoulder workout. It felt totally unsatisfactory. I completely felt like I was robbing myself of a good workout. Stopping short of failure felt totally, utterly unnatural. I had to tag 3-4 extra sets onto the end of my workout just so I could leave the gym feeling like I accomplished something worthwhile; and even with these extra sets, it still did not compare to the incredible feeling I achieve from going to failure. I feel like stopping short of failure is inefficient as far as time spent in the gym and in terms of having a good workout.

Failure is THE WAY to go. I wish it wasn't, because these past test workouts where I went 1-2 reps short of failure was a hell of a lot easier than anything I'm used to. But it's safe to say this way of working out lacks intensity. I always said the two most important things when working out are form and failure. I stick to that even more so than before now that I tried higher volume/less intensity.

[dj181]

I always said the two most important things when working out are form and failure.

True dat! But the MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR is..... PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD Without this, you won't create bigger muscles, it is ABSOLUTLEY NECESSARY in the quest for larger muscles FACT

[wild willie]

Lou Ferrigno....Bill Pearl.....Samir......Zan e.....Arnie.....Padilla. ...are some champs that trained a rep or so short of failure. Doesn't mean they trained with less intensity......just means they didn't go to positive failure.

[Yev33]

absolutely agree with the progressive overload statement, doesn't matter if, you want to get bigger, faster, stronger, progressive overload is the most important thing hands down. And when it comes to progressive overload I think/expirienced my self/expirienced with others, the failure method with low volume works best. But it does have some rules that you cannot bring over from volume training. This is just what I have personally noticed:
1 you have to lower volume (obviously)
2 training sessions need to be shorter (ties in with volume)
3 don't fuck with the rest periods and rush before your failure sets 3-5  min
4 even if youre doing 1 set to failure do at least one warm up set to get accustomed to the movement pattern your about  to do
5 you will plateau movements a lot quicker with this approach but you will also see quicker strength gains in a given period of time. So you have to cycle your movements, for example squats cycled with front squats etc.. This is where working out at a home gym can possibly hurt you as far as limiting  the exercise options.
6 it is absolutely not for newbies, you gotta have some expirience in knowing your body and be able to fully exert yourself on your failure sets. A newbie who benches 135 for 8 till failure rests, and then gets 135 for 8 again, was not able to go to failure on that first set.
7 stick to 1-2 sets to failure per exercise no more.

[dj181]

absolutely agree with the progressive overload statement, doesn't matter if, you want to get bigger, faster, stronger, progressive overload is the most important thing hands down. And when it comes to progressive overload I think/expirienced my self/expirienced with others, the failure method with low volume works best. But it does have some rules that you cannot bring over from volume training. This is just what I have personally noticed:
1 you have to lower volume (obviously)
2 training sessions need to be shorter (ties in with volume)
3 don't fuck with the rest periods and rush before your failure sets 3-5  min
4 even if youre doing 1 set to failure do at least one warm up set to get accustomed to the movement pattern your about  to do
5 you will plateau movements a lot quicker with this approach but you will also see quicker strength gains in a given period of time. So you have to cycle your movements, for example squats cycled with front squats etc.. This is where working out at a home gym can possibly hurt you as far as limiting  the exercise options.
6 it is absolutely not for newbies, you gotta have some expirience in knowing your body and be able to fully exert yourself on your failure sets. A newbie who benches 135 for 8 till failure rests, and then gets 135 for 8 again, was not able to go to failure on that first set.
7 stick to 1-2 sets to failure per exercise no more.

Spot fucking on post man I completely agree with all of your points, except I would say to do at least 3 or 4 warm-up sets before your working sets. Also, I would limit total work set volume to not more than 6 work sets til failure per workout. PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD IS KING

[Yev33]

Et

Spot fucking on post man I completely agree with all of your points, except I would say to do at least 3 or 4 warm-up sets before your working sets. Also, I would limit total work set volume to not more than 6 work sets til failure per workout. PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD IS KING

Absolutely, especially first movement, as many as you need, and afterward at least one warm up for every consequent exercise. My workouts are generally 4-6 worksets to failure which is right on line with your 6 set recommendation.

[tbombz]

you can go the way of low volume high intensity training and do a coouple sets to failure. alot of guys get great results from that. personally i get alot more out of stay awaying from failure. and alot of people i know too.  as long as you know that its unlikely youl be able to grow if you train both failure and high volume once your developed then your good. there is a balance. sometimes you have to back off. most of the time you dont want to push it. better to focus on good form, tight squeezing, time under tension, and hit a variety of rep ranges. go low reps. moderate reps. high reps. always 1 or 2 reps shy of failure. more volume= better. just dont exaust yourself.

[tbombz]

So I gave this a shot for both my back workout and my shoulder workout. It felt totally unsatisfactory. I completely felt like I was robbing myself of a good workout. Stopping short of failure felt totally, utterly unnatural. I had to tag 3-4 extra sets onto the end of my workout just so I could leave the gym feeling like I accomplished something worthwhile; and even with these extra sets, it still did not compare to the incredible feeling I achieve from going to failure. I feel like stopping short of failure is inefficient as far as time spent in the gym and in terms of having a good workout.

Failure is THE WAY to go. I wish it wasn't, because these past test workouts where I went 1-2 reps short of failure was a hell of a lot easier than anything I'm used to. But it's safe to say this way of working out lacks intensity. I always said the two most important things when working out are form and failure. I stick to that even more so than before now that I tried higher volume/less intensity.

no

you didnt train correctly


lift heavy

and if its easy then keep doing it over and over.

[nodeal]

True dat! But the MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR is..... PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD Without this, you won't create bigger muscles, it is ABSOLUTLEY NECESSARY in the quest for larger muscles FACT

Without a doubt. Constantly challenging your body and pushing the threshold is what it's all about

[nodeal]

Lou Ferrigno....Bill Pearl.....Samir......Zan e.....Arnie.....Padilla. ...are some champs that trained a rep or so short of failure. Doesn't mean they trained with less intensity......just means they didn't go to positive failure.

The person who goes to positive failure trains with more intensity than the person who doesn't. Plain and simple. I'm not saying you can't have a good workout keeping 1-2 reps away from failure, I'm just say you're robbing yourself of the full experience.

[nodeal]

no

you didnt train correctly


lift heavy

and if its easy then keep doing it over and over.

I did lift heavy, I just didn't lift heavy to positive failure -- and it fucking sucked.

[tbombz]

I did lift heavy, I just didn't lift heavy to positive failure -- and it fucking sucked.

you didnt lift heavy enough or you didnt do it enough times.

[dj181]

If you use the same weights for your training weights then the mucles will stay the same size FACT

But if you use heavier and heavier weights for your training weights then your muscles will get bigger and bigger FACT

P.S. It's ain't so easy to be able to handle greater and greater training loads (coz the body wants to remain within it's own state of homo-statis) but this training with greater and greater loads IS THE HOLY GRAIL OF BUILDING BIGGER MUSCLES

[jpm101]

Perhaps dj181 is confusing fact from fiction, or perhaps his version of limited facts. Using heavier and heavier weight each workout does not always equate to becoming larger. Not unless enough time is allowed for recovery and one does not go to failure.

Many trainee's, including myself, have had outstanding results using systems like GVT (German Volume Training) when rapid muscle and strength gains were the goal. GVT (10X10's) is using the SAME WEIGHT for all sets. And that weigh is much lighter than used in any regular workout.  Other similar methods like Gironda's 8X8 for example have been used for great results. Gironda also used the 10X10's method. You do try adding weight, each workout, but still want the full 10 reps done for all 10 sets.

Only one compound exercise is used per body part for that workout day. The whole idea behind GVT is to reach the goal of 100 reps for that body part. The 100 reps are broken down into 10 individual sets of 10 reps, with between 60 to 90 seconds rest between sets.  After all, the total tonnage, gauged by reps preformed in any workout ,is the most important.

As the story goes, Olympic lifters wanted a less stressful workout on their joints/tendons/ligaments during off season. Adapting the 10X10's (with almost baby weights to them) some of the lifters advanced to a higher weight class and improved strength greatly over a short period. Gaining pure muscle weight in the process. Good Luck.

[dj181]

I see your point jpm101, but the whole reason that ANY training method works is because said method has allowed one to train with greater and great training loads (Progressive Overload). If one does GVT or Girondas 8X8 or any other method and doesn't increase their training loads over time, then their muscles will not get bigger.

[jpm101]

Sorry my friend but that is totally incorrect. You will have to experience these different protocols for yourself to fully understand the benefits gained. I am a fan of progressive overload for many years. My prime workouts are within a Power rack. Including partial/pin spaced heavier workouts. But there are other method offering exceptional results. And not all involve extreme loads. Having one mind set in training can be very limiting and can even cheat one's self of greater potential for size and strength. Good Luck.

[oldtimer1]

I have been training for many years.  This is my take on things. I have been heavily influenced by Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer. I have trained for to many years to count to failure for low sets. I wish I would have used some volume during that time. I think all new trainers should always train to failure.

 The problem with failure is that it leads to burn out then there is a need to take off from training. If you have 5 years under your belt how much stronger can you get? Intensity demands adding weight, reps or decreasing the length of time it took to complete your workout.  

It seems HIT to failure guys follow the same pattern. They start training 3 days a week with say 12 exercises to failure of 1 or 2 work sets.  They burn out and reach a strength plateau.  Then they believe their strength have over run their recovery so they go down to twice a week.  This works for awhile then complete staleness and a need to take a break due to exhaustion.  After a break they read they should go down to one workout every 5 to 6 days.  This works for awhile.  Then they feel again they can't recover from 12 exercises and they go down to 6 then 4.  Soon they are working out once a week for 20 minutes and declare the reached their genetic limit. Bull shit.

I believe in training to failure for limited periods like Yates does.  You can't train like that all the time.  Imagine if a track coach said every training day you are running a mile to exhaustion trying to beat your time?  You would improve quickly at first but just as quickly you will start to burn out and your times would go down hill.

I believe the majority of your training should be to modified failure.  This is when you do volume with the last set approaching failure. So if you are doing 5 sets of ten reps for barbell curls it might look like this.  First set you do 10 reps but you know you could get more. Set two and three is the same.  You are working hard but not to the ragged edge. Set 4 you get 10 but would'nt have gotten 12. Set 5 you reach failure at 8.  When you can get 5 x 10 reps with that weight you can increase. Also the rests between sets are quick.  You're pacing yourself.  With 2 x 10 hit type approach you take as much time as you need between sets so you can attack that second set. With the volume approach you are trying to limit the rest between sets.

Does any athlete from Olympic lifter, Power lifter or even distance runner go to failure every training day?  Why do we think that's the way a bodybuilder should train?

[dj181]

I believe the majority of your training should be to modified failure.  This is when you do volume with the last set approaching failure. So if you are doing 5 sets of ten reps for barbell curls it might look like this.  First set you do 10 reps but you know you could get more. Set two and three is the same.  You are working hard but not to the ragged edge. Set 4 you get 10 but would'nt have gotten 12. Set 5 you reach failure at 8.  When you can get 5 x 10 reps with that weight you can increase. Also the rests between sets are quick.  You're pacing yourself.

This right here is nearly spot fucking on! The only thing that I would disagree with is that the rest btw work sets should be at least 3 or 4 min. I was trained by this fella here (JM Blakely), and that was his bread and butter training protocol. Except he advised 4 sets of 6 reps, and then once the 4th set could be completed with 6 or more reps increase the weight next workout.

[Yev33]

 Progressive overload can come in many different forms.
Adding weight while keeping reps constant
Adding reps while keeping weight constant
Increasing ROM with same weight ( when doing partials work)
Increasing TUT with the same weight
Shortening rest periods when doing multiple sets with same weight
 Those are just some of the ones that come to mind off the top of my head.
Also bodybuilding/powerbuilding are not the same as powerlifting and OLY weightlifting. Bodybuilding/powerbuilding requires that you get stronger in a much wider variety of movements in order to allow for more complete development. And I speak from my own and expirience of others that I have helped out and trained with, the most sure fire way to guarntee that you will grow is by adding weight to the bar. I have yet to see anyone that took their bench from 225 for 6 to 315 for 6 and not get bigger. Powerlifting and OLY lifting have specific competition lifts that require constant practice. So most of the traditional programs keep those lifts in year round, and yes if you are keeping a lift year round you should not go to failure most of the time because you will burn out.  Whats funny though, if you actually look at the Westside template they have the max effort days for upper and lower body where they cycle the training movements every 1-3 workouts to prevent burn out and keep from stalling  out a particular movement.

[dj181]

the most sure fire way to guarntee that you will grow is by adding weight to the bar. I have yet to see anyone that took their bench from 225 for 6 to 315 for 6 and not get bigger.

EXACTLY! And this is the whole point that I'm trying to make, the only problem is that it it much, much easier said than done

Blakely's training style is quite similar to Max-OT, and in my experience, this style of training gave me the best and fastest results. I tried Gironda's 8X8 and GVT, and both training styles left me smaller and weaker, as both of these styles of training forced me to reduce my training poundages, thus leading to smaller and weaker muscles. But this was only my experience with theses 2 styles of training, so I can't speak for others.

[jpm101]

Progressive overload and going to failure need not be linked for results, in either size or strength. If the body is given a proper training stimuli, and a fair recovery period, nature pretty much takes it's course. Being that the CNS (the key to all) will meet that stimuli and adapt, and progress (muscle/strength) to meet the newer stress factors. Of course, training hard does not mean going to complete failure in most training sessions. That will attack the CNS badly.

Glad to see that dj181 has experimented with 8X8's & 10X10's. Most people who attempt these styles will lose a bit the first week or so. Than the body kicks in, producing results at a fairly fast rate. Or some drop out the first few workouts because of the physical, as well as the mental, efforts involved. Sorry that dj181 did not experience any favorable benefit from such training. Nothing works for everyone.

I've given high school/college football players, who needed to gain 10 to 20lbs off season, GVT and for the most part gains of pure muscle mass and strength was achieved (usually between 6 to 10  weeks..the first week or so is a breaking in period, which trying any new systems require). Than they went back to regular football training workouts. The GVT workouts might include cleans, squats, jerk presses, benches, Hi-pulls,etc. Most effective one exercise per body part was the squat clean, a true mass builder. Some times including the jerk overhead. Good Luck.

[Meso_z]

Im confused..

From next week Im going to try NOT going to failure.

How many weeks until you "feel" a difference?