Author Topic: Vet and the rest of the board I have a question. the boys are fighting!  (Read 4165 times)

SinCitysmallGUY

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Okay so it's happened three times now. Chucka and Chaos have snapped at each other and gotten into it.. They are not aggressive to anyone or each other, just these three times and twice it was food and the other was a toy? They don't growl, they don't act differant.. Would getting one of them snipped help with this? One of the times Chucka got caught with some teeth to his mouth and bleed a little. Im not to worried about it, but had to ask cause the wife was a little worried. I figure it's chain of command type shit.

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Re: Vet and the rest of the board I have a question. the boys are fighting!
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2009, 09:24:44 PM »
your dogs aren't fixed?  dude, get em snipped.

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Re: Vet and the rest of the board I have a question. the boys are fighting!
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2009, 05:15:14 AM »
your dogs aren't fixed?  dude, get em snipped.
X2, Get them fixed bro.
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knny187

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Re: Vet and the rest of the board I have a question. the boys are fighting!
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2009, 07:31:07 AM »
Well, since they're not fixed, you will get territorial dominance or power struggles.  One of them is the leader & the follower is now decided he wants some a new position.

With work, I've seen this resolved but you would need to become a strong leader for the boys.  It's hard because you always won't be there so these guys will drum up power positions while you're gone.

Snipping one or both of them will (most likely) solve 99% of your problem.

Personally, having two intact males can be troublesome.  My breeder has two intact males & it's obvious one is the leader & one is the follower.  Trust me, everyone knows (even the breeder) that this can change at any minute.  She allows them together only with supervision & when certain situations are favorable (like for example...no females in heat around.)

Don't know what to suggest, I don't know what you can try other than snipping.  There is certain remedies out there sold that can help them be more at ease & relaxed and that could be tried too.  Never tried them myself.

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Re: Vet and the rest of the board I have a question. the boys are fighting!
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2009, 10:27:15 AM »
Okay so it's happened three times now. Chucka and Chaos have snapped at each other and gotten into it.. They are not aggressive to anyone or each other, just these three times and twice it was food and the other was a toy? They don't growl, they don't act differant.. Would getting one of them snipped help with this? One of the times Chucka got caught with some teeth to his mouth and bleed a little. Im not to worried about it, but had to ask cause the wife was a little worried. I figure it's chain of command type shit.

ok, well..... you've entered into a world that could be a big, big problem with your dogs over time.  Unfortunately, castration may not be the be all/end all that some people think it is.  To put things as simple as possible, I try to break it down into the "three drives" model:   prey vs territory vs reproductive.  Castration will virtually eliminate reproductve drive, will decrease territory drive, and may blunt prey drive, but won't eliminate it.   Once dogs start fighting, it becomes a complex interaction.   Sometimes simply letting the dogs "work things out" can solve the problem.   Unfortunately, you won pitbulls.   Depending on the dogs, their innate prey drive can override common sense in a fight situation and this can actually make things much worse.   They aren't afraid to fight other dogs by breed design, so once things start, getting them to stop can be an issue. 

I owned a male pit that was a rescue (I got him as an intact male at about 5 years of age) for several years that was what I'd consider "very" dog aggressive.  Once we figured things out, he lived in my house with 4 other dogs (including another pitbull and a male boxer that was castrated as an adult) with no real problems for years until he finally died from cancer of the spleen. 

The not growling/not showing typical dog "leave my stuff alone" but just suddenly exploding into a fight is a key thing.  You need to pay extremely careful attention to your dogs to see if you can detect any sort of signal that a fight is about to occur.  I wrote things down when I was dealing with my male and his aggression issue.   Its very unusual for a dog to just start a fight without telegraphing that they are thinking about it.  That said, the signals may be EXTREMELY subtle.  In Teddy's case, he'd start looking sideways out of his eyes and tighten up his neck.  If I saw that happening, he was immediately isolated from the other dogs into a time out and stayed there for 20-30 minutes, then allowed back with the dogs.   If he did it twice in a row, he went to his kennel and stayed there for a couple of hours.   Remember, pits respond to positive rewards.  Beating them and throwing them into the kennel won't do anything.  We isolated them where they had their toys, had food, everything, it was simply a means of breaking up that visual contact until he got over whatever it was that was setting him off in the first place. 

You must identify what is causing the aggression, what the dogs are telling each other before the aggression, and what is going on immediatly up to the point of the fight.  The dog that you think is causing the fight may not be the actual problem, instead that dog is responding to body language from the other dogs or some other type of anxiety.  Watch for that. 


Second, we instituted "miltary school" before teddy went to his "room" he had to go through all of his tricks.  Sit, down, shake, stay, down, etc.  He then went to the kennel.  He also did all of that the minute he came back out from his kennel.  This did two things.  First, it kept me as the human, in control of the dog.  He wasn't given a chance to think about fighting because we were having him do commands.  The same thing when he came out of the kennel .  It also gave a positive one on one human interaction.  If you give a dog a chance to think, they stand a chance of doign something stupid in a situation like this.  Don't let them think bad things.    While I was putting Teddy up, my wife would be putting the other dogs through their paces with basic commands too.    That way, they weren't allowed to think either.  It takes too people, but one person can do it, if you are able to close doors and you have dogs that don't get excessively jealous. 


Third, anticipate your dogs.  I've had to lock my dogs in kennels during feeding for years.  My female pit can get stupid about her food bowl.  All of my dog eat in their kennels, and often times we'll practice me taking their food, my touching them, petting them, etc while they eat.  That way you dont' ever let them become food aggressive towards humans.  If they are out, I pick up the food bowls.   Over time if dogs are food defensive and they are fed side by side (ie kennels are next to each other) it can build to cause problems.  Thats what happened with my female pit and the dogo.   She built for months until one day she snapped at him over the food bowl.  Unfortnately the dogo isn't a dog to take that and he bit the shit out of her and shook her a bit, resulting in me holding both dogs by their scruffs cussing, more military school time, and ultimately their being fed out of eyesite of each other.  Moving her kennel away from his solved all of the problems. 

I also wouldn't make a big deal out of toys outside of a kennel.  Introduce new play items in teh kennel where the dogs can enjoy them by themselves.  And consider duplicate play items.  Dogs can get to be very protective, jealous over toys.   Don't give them the chance. 


I hope that helps.  let me know if it didn't. 

SinCitysmallGUY

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Re: Vet and the rest of the board I have a question. the boys are fighting!
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2009, 08:43:15 PM »
Okay sorry my post was a little messed up.  Chaos my white dog does growl before lashing. I meant they do growl, but they don't act differant. There is usually a growl followed by another then a explosion. The 3 times it happened one was on our deck and I stomped a foot between them (not hitting either of them, but pulling a ref move) and they broke up and knew they were both in trouble.

The second time was in the house and I threw myself between them and as soon as they saw me it was over. Just yesterday they were out by the fence doing something, pissing or playing with a ball and I was walking around the deck from their kennel and ran over screaming at them and it was over before I could even see it.

I guess the problem is one of them trying to upstep to be the leader or the leader reaserting his possition. Chaos is the dominant one I think. He is much more mellow and laid back old dog style, while chucka is the puppy of the two and just clumsy and nosey. Choas will let chucka take his toys and everything else, but is the first one in the door always. (I let chucka in first half the time, but have to push chaos back to do this, (could this be sending mixed signals?)) Anyways it seems like Chaos is the one who starts most of the shit, but sometimes I think maybe chucka starts them saying okay I've had enough I want your spot?

Also Vet, I keep them both in the same kennel during the day. I haven't seen any type of an episode while away. I also feed them in the same dog house, it's custom made by me and very big. These dogs share everything, they both sleep with us, share their toys (don't really fight over things, minus these 3 times in a year and a half). If I seperate them they whine the whole time, I always joke that these two dogs are fags. Closet bond I have ever seen between two dogs, right now they are both laying with a head on my seperate feet and their noses are touching. It's sick.

Thanks for the advice guys, I think I am going to get Chaos cut, I have plans to breed chucka to my buddies blue girl, and yes contracts will be signed on all puppies with rules on them. I refuse to allow my dog to add to the growing pitbull pound problem. (Wanted to CMA and not have to say it later after someone commented)

chaos

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Re: Vet and the rest of the board I have a question. the boys are fighting!
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2009, 09:07:57 PM »
Okay sorry my post was a little messed up.  Chaos my white dog does growl before lashing. I meant they do growl, but they don't act differant. There is usually a growl followed by another then a explosion. The 3 times it happened one was on our deck and I stomped a foot between them (not hitting either of them, but pulling a ref move) and they broke up and knew they were both in trouble.

The second time was in the house and I threw myself between them and as soon as they saw me it was over. Just yesterday they were out by the fence doing something, pissing or playing with a ball and I was walking around the deck from their kennel and ran over screaming at them and it was over before I could even see it.

I guess the problem is one of them trying to upstep to be the leader or the leader reaserting his possition. Chaos is the dominant one I think. He is much more mellow and laid back old dog style, while chucka is the puppy of the two and just clumsy and nosey. Choas will let chucka take his toys and everything else, but is the first one in the door always. (I let chucka in first half the time, but have to push chaos back to do this, (could this be sending mixed signals?)) Anyways it seems like Chaos is the one who starts most of the shit, but sometimes I think maybe chucka starts them saying okay I've had enough I want your spot?

Also Vet, I keep them both in the same kennel during the day. I haven't seen any type of an episode while away. I also feed them in the same dog house, it's custom made by me and very big. These dogs share everything, they both sleep with us, share their toys (don't really fight over things, minus these 3 times in a year and a half). If I seperate them they whine the whole time, I always joke that these two dogs are fags. Closet bond I have ever seen between two dogs, right now they are both laying with a head on my seperate feet and their noses are touching. It's sick.

Thanks for the advice guys, I think I am going to get Chaos cut, I have plans to breed chucka to my buddies blue girl, and yes contracts will be signed on all puppies with rules on them. I refuse to allow my dog to add to the growing pitbull pound problem. (Wanted to CMA and not have to say it later after someone commented)

 >:(
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knny187

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Re: Vet and the rest of the board I have a question. the boys are fighting!
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2009, 07:35:56 AM »
I hat to sound like Cesar Milan, but how many times a week do you walk them?

Abundance of Energy & frustration can easily be brought out with lack of walk & exercise.  The walks may also help enforce the leader-follower role.

SinCitysmallGUY

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Re: Vet and the rest of the board I have a question. the boys are fighting!
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2009, 07:42:16 PM »
I hat to sound like Cesar Milan, but how many times a week do you walk them?

Abundance of Energy & frustration can easily be brought out with lack of walk & exercise.  The walks may also help enforce the leader-follower role.

they get played with every night. if not walked we play fetch in the backyard for at least an hour or so. sometimes it has been cut short and with the weather as of late I haven't been walking as much. to icey to take em out. We have had ice and snow for the past month, but when it's not bad they're on the leash and when it is they are in the backyard with me and a bone or ball.

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Re: Vet and the rest of the board I have a question. the boys are fighting!
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2009, 06:49:50 PM »
Neutering after the problem has already started will likely do nothing, but I'd do it anyway.

And the short answer to what Kenny asked is you don't walk your dogs, as most dog owners don't.  The sooner you realize this and fix the problem, the better.  'Playing' is no where near the same thing as walking a dog.  Playing is fun for the dogs, and if you play games like tug-of-war and shit with them, it just feeds the problem.  Walking is work.

But the problem that you have is just because neither one of them take you seriously.  You aren't in charge.  No one ever wants to hear this, but it is the truth.  I know you think you know your dogs and so on and so forth.  They would not fight if they viewed you as a leader.  It sounds gimmicky and gay and TV show-ish.  It is true.  The sooner you can re-mold the structure of the household and how you treat them, the sooner the issue can get better.  But to be totally honest, now that the ball has already started rolling...you are in for a rough time.

Your dogs love you, they just don't respect you as a figure of power.

SinCitysmallGUY

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Re: Vet and the rest of the board I have a question. the boys are fighting!
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2009, 08:18:02 PM »
Neutering after the problem has already started will likely do nothing, but I'd do it anyway.

And the short answer to what Kenny asked is you don't walk your dogs, as most dog owners don't.  The sooner you realize this and fix the problem, the better.  'Playing' is no where near the same thing as walking a dog.  Playing is fun for the dogs, and if you play games like tug-of-war and shit with them, it just feeds the problem.  Walking is work.

But the problem that you have is just because neither one of them take you seriously.  You aren't in charge.  No one ever wants to hear this, but it is the truth.  I know you think you know your dogs and so on and so forth.  They would not fight if they viewed you as a leader.  It sounds gimmicky and gay and TV show-ish.  It is true.  The sooner you can re-mold the structure of the household and how you treat them, the sooner the issue can get better.  But to be totally honest, now that the ball has already started rolling...you are in for a rough time.

Your dogs love you, they just don't respect you as a figure of power.


Thanks for the words of thought, I think you have this wrong though. They might not respect the wife the same way they do me, but once I holler the fight is over. The dogs both know who runs the roost. Never had either one of them challenge, and they both do things to show that they know who the alpha is.. However I thank you again for your opinion as everyone has one and one would be an idiot to just shake off anothers, but I do disagree with your opinion.

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Re: Vet and the rest of the board I have a question. the boys are fighting!
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2009, 08:53:55 PM »

Thanks for the words of thought, I think you have this wrong though. They might not respect the wife the same way they do me, but once I holler the fight is over. The dogs both know who runs the roost. Never had either one of them challenge, and they both do things to show that they know who the alpha is.. However I thank you again for your opinion as everyone has one and one would be an idiot to just shake off anothers, but I do disagree with your opinion.

What I am saying is, when you look at a pack of dogs from an outside perspective.  Fighting occurs very rarely and under specific circumstances.  There is rarely ever a power struggle for second place.

How are they fed?  Start feeding them separately, and in a structured manner.  Mix it with your hands, they both have to sit and stay before they are allowed to eat.  If they aren't fed at the same two times a day, start doing that.  Separate bowls, separate spots.  Don't leave the food bowl down all day long, they get fed at certain times and it should come from you.  Make sure there is no aggression issues if you go to remove the bowl from them while they eat, or rather just go near it or put your hand in it.

I'd also probably remove all toys from being free reign.

Nothing they own should belong to them.  It belongs to you ultimately.

You need to eliminate all possibilities of an incident occuring until you get to the bottom of it.  The fact that they are alone together for long periods of time would worry me personally as well.  I would not want to come home to a badly injured dog, so you need to minimize windows of opportunity until more is known about the issue.

And once again, even though there is no guarantee it will do anything.  Get them both neutered.  I understand you had intentions of breeding them, but if the problem continues, you are playing with fire.

TonyAlva

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Re: Vet and the rest of the board I have a question. the boys are fighting!
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2009, 02:43:49 PM »
Pitbulls have been breed over 100+ years to fight, its part of their natural drive. I have a  pt mix myself. They will no doubt do it again in the near future, its just something you have to be vigilant over and remove as many "triggers" away that lead to fights, ie toys, treats and such. By the way you have great looking dogs.

temper35

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Re: Vet and the rest of the board I have a question. the boys are fighting!
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2009, 09:53:29 PM »
Pitbulls have been breed over 100+ years to fight, its part of their natural drive. I have a  pt mix myself. They will no doubt do it again in the near future, its just something you have to be vigilant over and remove as many "triggers" away that lead to fights, ie toys, treats and such. By the way you have great looking dogs.

You are a moron.

TonyAlva

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Re: Vet and the rest of the board I have a question. the boys are fighting!
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2009, 07:29:33 AM »
I speak the truth

knny187

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Re: Vet and the rest of the board I have a question. the boys are fighting!
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2009, 08:11:19 AM »
my dog must have been breed over the last 100 years to be a silly idiot

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Re: Vet and the rest of the board I have a question. the boys are fighting!
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2009, 01:10:48 AM »
Okay so it's happened three times now. Chucka and Chaos have snapped at each other and gotten into it.. They are not aggressive to anyone or each other, just these three times and twice it was food and the other was a toy? They don't growl, they don't act differant.. Would getting one of them snipped help with this? One of the times Chucka got caught with some teeth to his mouth and bleed a little. Im not to worried about it, but had to ask cause the wife was a little worried. I figure it's chain of command type shit.

Stop treating them as humans.

They're not "boys".

They're just animals, and needs to be put in place.

Show who's the Alpha male and you will be fine.
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Vet

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Re: Vet and the rest of the board I have a question. the boys are fighting!
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2009, 10:30:35 AM »

Thanks for the words of thought, I think you have this wrong though. They might not respect the wife the same way they do me, but once I holler the fight is over. The dogs both know who runs the roost. Never had either one of them challenge, and they both do things to show that they know who the alpha is.. However I thank you again for your opinion as everyone has one and one would be an idiot to just shake off anothers, but I do disagree with your opinion.

I wouldn't.  Hes speaking the truth.   Trust me, I've been through this with my dogs. 


One other thing I'd do is seperate them during the day.  Tensions can build (like what happened with my dogs) through the day and then explode once the dogs are out.   

You also need to institute "military school".  The training will make a difference. 

Vet

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Re: Vet and the rest of the board I have a question. the boys are fighting!
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2009, 10:33:16 AM »
What I am saying is, when you look at a pack of dogs from an outside perspective.  Fighting occurs very rarely and under specific circumstances.  There is rarely ever a power struggle for second place.

How are they fed?  Start feeding them separately, and in a structured manner.  Mix it with your hands, they both have to sit and stay before they are allowed to eat.  If they aren't fed at the same two times a day, start doing that.  Separate bowls, separate spots.  Don't leave the food bowl down all day long, they get fed at certain times and it should come from you.  Make sure there is no aggression issues if you go to remove the bowl from them while they eat, or rather just go near it or put your hand in it.

I'd also probably remove all toys from being free reign.

Nothing they own should belong to them.  It belongs to you ultimately.

You need to eliminate all possibilities of an incident occuring until you get to the bottom of it.  The fact that they are alone together for long periods of time would worry me personally as well.  I would not want to come home to a badly injured dog, so you need to minimize windows of opportunity until more is known about the issue.

And once again, even though there is no guarantee it will do anything.  Get them both neutered.  I understand you had intentions of breeding them, but if the problem continues, you are playing with fire.
This is very good advice.   I will say I have mixed thoughts on the neutering because this behavior has already started.   My males were both neutered when they had their problems.   Neutering may have taken the edge off a bit, but it was the training and my actions that stopped the fighting.  The snip snip isn't a be all end all answer.   That said, it might help though.