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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Dos Equis on March 26, 2018, 02:48:27 PM
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Good story.
I was a committed atheist and then this incredible thing happened to me
Lenya Heitzig By Lenya Heitzig | Fox News
My atheist father raised me on fanciful parables where the moral of the story concluded that God did not and could not exist. His strong belief in human ability and the power of positive thinking laced my childhood with quips like “What one conceives and then believes can be achieved.” No pie in the sky in the sweet by-and-by awaited us. Instead, if I wanted help, I needed look no further than the end of my own arm.
By my college days, my arms were weighed down by the baggage of my parent’s divorce, an absentee father, and a stoically distant step-father. Like many college coeds, I tried to cope with one-night stands, binge drinking, and recreational drugs. But at night when the lights were out, I was left wondering, Is there something more to life? Unlike Wonder Woman, I possessed no ability to rescue others, least of all myself from these destructive behaviors.
A Message from Stansberry Research
Guess Who's About To Go Bankrupt In America
Man who predicted the collapse of GM, Fannie, and Freddie says the next big bankruptcy is going to catch everyone by surprise.
During my sophomore year, my dad—now a doctor, law student, and author—had a born-again experience after reading a red letter edition of the Bible to determine whether Jesus professed positive things. His newfound faith threatened me. Outwardly, I wildly mocked him. Inwardly, his reversal of worldviews launched me on a quest to discover the meaning of life.
I took a class on non-Western religions like Buddhism, Taoism, and Hinduism. I interviewed classmates about their belief systems while we stood around a keg smoking joints. Family members tried to draw me back into their godless fold with words devoid of logic or comfort.
Something I read in chapter 3, “Does God Really Speak to Us,?” chafed against my scientific belief in evolution. Billy Graham proposed that God is a Creator who speaks through nature, whether in a crying infant or the song of a bird. “Yeah, right,” I blurted out.
One day, I passed a bookstore where Billy Graham’s new book “How to Be Born Again” beckoned to me like a neon light. I tucked the volume into my beach bag, grabbed a six-pack, and drove to the sand-duned shores of Lake Michigan to party with friends. While they hit the waves, I spread out a blanket to soak up the sun.
Something I read in chapter 3, “Does God Really Speak to Us,?” chafed against my scientific belief in evolution. Billy proposed that God is a Creator who speaks through nature, whether in a crying infant or the song of a bird. “Yeah, right,” I blurted out. I arrogantly put God to a challenge and inadvertently offered my first prayer: “God, if You rule over nature, if You’re sovereign even over the instincts of a bird, then make that bird chirping in the distance fly into the tree next to my blanket.” Fluttering toward me, the small grey swallow lit upon the branch above my head. Closing the book superstitiously, I thought, Maybe God does exist and created me for a purpose.
Billy recommended you read the Bible because it contains the very words of God. Reading it introduced me to God’s great love and His ability to provide each of us an abundant life full of significance. I devoured the pages of the Bible as though all my life I’d only eaten vanilla ice cream and someone had introduced me to 31 flavors. I couldn’t get enough.
I was transformed from tending bar on the weekends to marrying a pastor who tells people every Sunday about the living water that satisfies our deep thirst for more. Who would believe that a bird and a Bible would one day lead us to becoming friends with Billy Graham and his family? We’ve enjoyed a meal in their home, traveled with them on vacation, and were privileged to participate in the baptism of Billy’s grandson William Franklin Graham IV.
I wonder how God is waiting to speak to you. You never know the audacious plans He has in store for you. Are you listening?
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/03/25/was-committed-atheist-and-then-this-incredible-thing-happened-to-me.html
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Praise the Lord!
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Glad it worked out, and with luck the bird wasn't hurt. But they fly drunk all the time from too much berry-eating, so it probably wasn't a first time for that one. Once they've eaten themselves into a stupor, they'll more plow through the air than fly to wherever they're going, only to do it all over asap.
Only problem I have with the story, is that his challenge to God amounts to challenging the reader to do the same, in the same simplistic way. What's a bit mysterious about that, is that he knows it opens the door -- wide -- for a person to dive further into beliefs which run contrary to what he'd claim to wish for them.
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IMO it's simply a brand of direct selfishness, which shouldn't attract the will of God under any circumstance. What's the difference, say, between asking God to do that versus asking God to present a suitcase with a million cash in it as you're whistling up the road on a stroll? For all the good causes, even, one could dream up to make the request or demand.
Then to make it as a provision, of sorts, because you cannot see clear to find belief otherwise.
To God, what could be the difference between the two?
???
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Sorry for being a poor sport earlier, me mates! It's true I can't say what happened to the guy that day, so that's all to be said. But as I'm sure anyone who's once been a small child knows, issuing "Show me, now, or I'm not gonna believe!" type orders to God, isn't a reliable way to surf. For obvious reasons.
(and btw, it shows how dead-set we humans are to arrive at our conclusions by way of logic and only logic... to hope to see an event take place in front of our eyes through the will of God, upon our personal demand, leads right back to that)
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I don't think this is some sort of blueprint for conversion. It's one person's story. Everyone has a unique experience.
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Yes, neither of us were there inside the bird. We don't know what happened.
But to instruct God to conform to your own personal sense of worldy logic, and doing so "arrogantly" at that, doesn't sound like surrender. It sounds like the opposite of that.
But maybe I'm just old fashioned. :P :P
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Btw: the person is female. Odd how masculine she comes across, and how easily it's missed with all the talk about six packs and binge drinking etc.
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She's also in the preaching business, which may explain a desire to appear "special" when it comes to relating with God. Maybe she's the one person in existence who's successfully told God to surrender to her, or no dice.
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every time I put that challenge forward with witnesses, I'm quickly reminded "thou shalt not tempt god"... I'm happy to see it worked for someone... alone...without witnesses to back up the claim.....
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every time I put that challenge forward with witnesses, I'm quickly reminded "thou shalt not tempt god"... I'm happy to see it worked for someone... alone...without witnesses to back up the claim.....
How can someone prove a story involving faith? And why should they have to prove it to anyone?
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How can someone prove a story involving faith? And why should they have to prove it to anyone?
In that context they don't but that isn't the normal context I encounter. It's typically this;
Them : Prayer works, if you pray for ____ God will answer it.
Me : No, I don't believe that is true
Them: One time I prayed to get better, I was really sick and I got better.
Me: That had nothing to do with prayer
THem: yes it did
Me: OK, pray cancer gone
Them: It doesn't work that way...
It goes on and on but the point is, it is usually them making the claim, and me pointing out that under any control at all, you have no better getting a prayer answered than if you prayed to a doorknob
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In that context they don't but that isn't the normal context I encounter. It's typically this;
Them : Prayer works, if you pray for ____ God will answer it.
Me : No, I don't believe that is true
Them: One time I prayed to get better, I was really sick and I got better.
Me: That had nothing to do with prayer
THem: yes it did
Me: OK, pray cancer gone
Them: It doesn't work that way...
It goes on and on but the point is, it is usually them making the claim, and me pointing out that under any control at all, you have no better getting a prayer answered than if you prayed to a doorknob
You're asking for something that isn't possible to prove. That's how faith works. You cannot literally prove it. It's not science.
But it's also not just random things that happen to people. I've experienced countless things that prove to me that God is real and that prayers do get answered (although I don't always like the answer).
Also, I think the power of choice plays a big role. Choice is a hallmark of Christianity. God doesn't force anyone to do anything. It's sort of like Bruce Almighty, where he wanted God to force his girlfriend to love him, after he screwed up. Doesn't work that way. People can be put in the right position for things to happen, but in the end choice dictates a lot of what happens. At least that's my take.
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You're asking for something that isn't possible to prove. That's how faith works. You cannot literally prove it. It's not science.
But it's also not just random things that happen to people. I've experienced countless things that prove to me that God is real and that prayers do get answered (although I don't always like the answer).
Also, I think the power of choice plays a big role. Choice is a hallmark of Christianity. God doesn't force anyone to do anything. It's sort of like Bruce Almighty, where he wanted God to force his girlfriend to love him, after he screwed up. Doesn't work that way. People can be put in the right position for things to happen, but in the end choice dictates a lot of what happens. At least that's my take.
I'm usually not the one that makes the claim. I think I understand how the biblical praying is supposed to work, but I find a lot of people who believe the bible don't, and that's how they get caught short when called on it. You bring up a good point about faith. I'll have a Christian argue with me that the fact the bible is true is supported by all manner of scientific evidence, and there is plenty of proof it is true. If that is the case, then why do they require faith? I think the reasonable position is that there are incredible miracle claims in the bible.. and while there is no scientific or compelling evidence to believe the earth stood still for a battle, or Jesus walked on water, they believe it by faith. That to me makes sense.
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I'm usually not the one that makes the claim. I think I understand how the biblical praying is supposed to work, but I find a lot of people who believe the bible don't, and that's how they get caught short when called on it. You bring up a good point about faith. I'll have a Christian argue with me that the fact the bible is true is supported by all manner of scientific evidence, and there is plenty of proof it is true. If that is the case, then why do they require faith? I think the reasonable position is that there are incredible miracle claims in the bible.. and while there is no scientific or compelling evidence to believe the earth stood still for a battle, or Jesus walked on water, they believe it by faith. That to me makes sense.
The Bible isn't a science book and any attempt treat it like one is a mistake IMO. There is proof supporting a lot of the historical figures and stories, but on matters of faith, it's not like you can walk into a lab and run tests.
You're saying people make the claim, but that you call them on it. That sounds like you pressing people for scientific proof of faith-based beliefs.
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The Bible isn't a science book and any attempt treat it like one is a mistake IMO. There is proof supporting a lot of the historical figures and stories, but on matters of faith, it's not like you can walk into a lab and run tests.
You're saying people make the claim, but that you call them on it. That sounds like you pressing people for scientific proof of faith-based beliefs.
I'm asking them to pick a side.. either it is by faith, or there is sufficient evidence to support the claims.
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I'm asking them to pick a side.. either it is by faith, or there is sufficient evidence to support the claims.
Why do they have to pick a side?
You know their claims cannot be proved.
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Why do they have to pick a side?
You know their claims cannot be proved.
I guess they don't. I'll continue to point out the contradiction.
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Just a few quick responses in regards to some of the convo within this thread.
So why pray?
Hey BS....good read!
Dave’s comments presuppose that God has predetermined a path for our lives according to his will. Dave is correct.
As Dave concludes: “Either your prayer is against God's will and therefore won't happen because you can't change his mind, or your prayer is according to God's will but doesn't make a difference because God's will would have been carried out anyway. Prayer is pointless. It's a waste of time.”
Appears to be sewn up pretty neatly.
Dave also suggests that God’s perfection has predetermined the best possible outcome for our lives. Dave is correct again.
As Dave suggests our prayers are merely recommendations that are only valid if they agree with God’s preset choices because anything less than God’s preset choice is a step in the wrong direction.
Ultimately Dave blames God’s perfection and omniscience because he feels it invalidates the act of prayer rendering our prayers meaningless.
God is omniscient and has a will for each of our lives and chronologically that foreknowledge precedes our future choices, but the world he created takes into account our future choices and allows for his will and our will to be accomplished within the same perfect creation. Now certainly only God’s will for our lives and our will for our lives can only be fulfilled simultaneously if they agree, but still God’s will for our lives takes second fiddle to our own will for our lives if they don’t agree.
God desires that we desire his will for our lives, but he honors our choice to defy his predetermined will. In essence, just because God is omniscient and has a predetermined will for our lives doesn’t mean his will is pre-executed. We can easily defy his will for our lives. For example, Jesus Christ desires that we all come to accept him as our Lord and Savior, but I’m gonna guess that the atheists and agnostics on Getbig aren’t going to gives their lives to Christ again today. That said, God’s predetermined will for our lives still exists, but has been defied. As Dave stated, God’s mind isn’t going to change either, but that doesn’t mean his will for our lives is going to come to fruition ….we can prevent it.
So why pray?
The main reason I can think of to pray is that Jesus Christ told us to pray and later the apostle Paul affirmed that we should pray (without ceasing) according to that which was revealed to him by Jesus Christ.
A second reason to consider praying is that while Jesus Christ came as the incarnate Son of God on earth and assumed a limited human form that he prayed to God the Father for guidance and strength as an example of how we should seek him in our own lives. If prayer was appropriate for the Son of God then it’s appropriate for me…..God set the standard.
Another reason to pray is because believers are engaged in a personal relationship with the Almighty and relationships are two-way streets. How many successful relationships involve only one party engaged in communication with the other? None that I’ve ever known of. This is our opportunity as believers to consistently remain connected with our Lord and Savior and experience the tangible presence of the Holy Spirit (not the only way to feel the Holy Spirit's presence, but a powerful way).
A third reason to consider is that the act of prayer is not for God’s edification, it’s for ours (God doesn't need our prayers). Prayer is a means by which we as believers can strengthen our faith. Prayer is our opportunity to draw closer to God, to feel his presence via the Holy Spirit, to worship and to seek his will. As believers our will for our lives should always match God’s will for our lives. Almost every day I pray and I ask God that he reveal himself through me to others and that his will be done in my life. I pray that I am able to recognize his fingerprints and guidance along the way to ensure that he will is being accomplished and that I’m not a hindrance. As Dave already suggested, God’s will for our lives is perfect and anything less than that is a step in wrong direction.
A fourth reason to consider prayer is that despite the fact that God doesn’t change his mind about his will for our lives this doesn’t necessitate his inability to intervene supernaturally to right the course of our lives while remaining in complete harmony with his preset will for our lives…..he is God afterall. How does he accomplish this? Wish I could tell you LOL.
There are more reasons to pray that I'm not mentioning, but this is a first blush explanation.
Faith and evidence...what are they?
having the certainty of Christ's existence revealed via the tangible presence of the Holy Spirit is everything in my life. makes scripture come alive and validates his resurrection.
unfortunately the heartfelt sincerity of my words and genuine desire for others to experience the same as I have is chalked up to nothingness.....I can't overcome that.
there is no test tube or laboratory experiment that will allow me to bottle God. He's stands beyond us....he is the law and given that we must abide by his standards and come to him in humility and surrender and faith. my faith did begin with a leap, but it's now rock solid....I have full assurance in the heart now. it's a more mature faith because of my experiences with the divine and nothing can take those experiences from me. all I can do is share them with others and answer questions as honestly and fully as I'm able to.
if you truly desire to know God....I mean sincerely want to know him then I suggest starting with a simple prayer. as I've stated previously knowing God involves surrender to his will for your life.
Faith is evidence of the things unseen or hoped for. As I've said for years and no one has caught yet, faith is Full Assurance In The Heart. Full disclosure, I borrowed this acronym for faith from a traveling evangelist named Nick Vujicic.
I have definite proof of God's existence in my life, but I also have faith and that faith is grounded in things unseen, hoped for or yet to come but promised by God himself in the person of Jesus Christ. I have faith that what Christ said, that was written in scripture, will come to pass BECAUSE of the tangible, supernatural, revelatory proof in my own life of EXACTLY who he is and how to know him. The foundation for my continued faith in God is grounded in the absolute, definite proof of God in my life.
Faith isn’t blind at all LOL. In fact it’s HEAVILY anchored in solid proof. Now that proof is often acquired individually through special revelation, but that collective proof is merely evidence for others to consider. Problem is people dismiss evidence for God immediately without consideration because it conflicts with ingrained presuppositions that are typically unyielding and unchanging for those that possess them. Evidence is meant to be followed to a conclusion, but refusal to do so is simply willful ignorance. You follow evidence for scientific ideas to a natural conclusion. You follow evidence for spiritual ideas to a supernatural conclusion. Same procedure yet mutually exclusive of one another. Rejecting spiritual evidence for God by nonbelievers, atheists, agnostics, etc…..often comes down to one simple idea……they desire a complete lack of accountability as it pertains to God’s laws. They make themselves into little Gods and follow their own will, their own destinies…..so be it.
I have ABSOLUTE, 100% proof of God’s existence, but it’s only proof for me. It’s evidence for everyone else to consider. There’s a mountain of evidence for God but as I said it’s typically dismissed out of hand.
What type of evidence do we have?
We have historical proof of Jesus' life and ministry, archeological proof of biblical people and places, manuscript proof of biblical reliability via the field of textual criticism, multiple independent attestations that agree closely on the facts of Jesus Christ's life/death/resurrection, proof via logic (God as source of logic, TAG argument, Kalam Cosmological argument), extra-biblical accounts that validate the historicity of Jesus Christ's ministry/death/resurrection, the ministry and death of Jesus' apostles after his ascension, the fulfillment of biblical prophecy spanning hundreds of years between initial prophecy and fulfillment, the intelligent design of the universe, the utter improbability of the intricate structure of the universe without a designer and the testimonial evidence of millions and millions of Christ's followers today. This isn't an exhaustive list either.
The problem with evidence is that our presuppositions and subjectivity often determine our judgment of evidence even prior to reviewing said evidence (that is if it's ever reviewed). Further, people that want to understand and know God have a personal desire to actively pursue God....this is key!! Atheists don't pursue God according to his terms as outlined in scripture and generally have no desire to understand and know God at all. Atheists object to God based upon a lack of scientific evidence and testing (a logical fallacy referred to as a "category mistake") or they put forth demands that certain criteria must be met within the evidence that is simply unreasonable. That or they simply reject anything and everything "God" and refuse to explore and follow the evidence. Those that truly desire to know the reality of God pursue him.
For believers, you should note that the tactics of the nonbeliever are simply a word game to avoid accountability to a God they know exists and suppress with all their might. The demands for a "cogent definition of God" are purely subjective and open to limitless interpretation. It's worldly, subjectivity at its finest and it's abjectly flawed. Many atheists simply require specific conditions for a base definition and regardless of how far the argument unravels the unbeliever can always revert back to the "errored definition" position if need be....it's a crutch. It's akin to starting an argument with "ok, you can only say this and this....now go." Always be aware of the "what do you mean by [insert word]" tactics and the use of the Platonic ideologies such as "what is the essence of a chair" or "what is chairness" positions....they are escape and avoidance tactics.
And also realize that "verifiable, concrete proof of the demanded claim" is always grounded in the finite, natural presuppositions of scientific requirements. I often chuckle when the infinite (God) is demanded to be defined by the standards of the finite (God's creation) of which he (God) transcends. Also note that whatever evidence is presented will be rejected as definite choices have already been made by the atheist.
Atheism stands firm on a platform of scientific evidence and follow that scientific evidence to a conclusion, but RARELY (if ever) will the atheist/nonbeliever uphold that same standard and proactively follow the evidence for God through to its end. A person has to be willing to follow the evidence and the commands of scripture. We are subject to the terms God has set forth in his scripture and if you refuse to abide by those terms then you will remain lost.
I follow biological evidence for biological conclusions. Historical evidence for historical conclusions. Archeological evidence for archeological conclusions. Theological evidence for theological conclusions. Sometimes a combination of evidence is followed. Point is I investigate before I reach the conclusion and I investigate as is appropriate for the situation or conclusion. I also fully consider the words of those that know better than I do about a particular topic. If I'm told that a biological conclusion has specific requirements I don't demand evidence grounded in the culinary arts. I don't demand that doors requiring keys only be opened with toasters or unicorn blood because that's my personal preference. And when my personal preferences aren't met I don't capriciously claim the conclusion in question is false because I refuse to abide by its terms.
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Just a few quick responses in regards to some of the convo within this thread.
So why pray?
Faith and evidence...what are they?
Faith is evidence of the things unseen or hoped for. As I've said for years and no one has caught yet, faith is Full Assurance In The Heart. Full disclosure, I borrowed this acronym for faith from a traveling evangelist named Nick Vujicic.
I have definite proof of God's existence in my life, but I also have faith and that faith is grounded in things unseen, hoped for or yet to come but promised by God himself in the person of Jesus Christ. I have faith that what Christ said, that was written in scripture, will come to pass BECAUSE of the tangible, supernatural, revelatory proof in my own life of EXACTLY who he is and how to know him. The foundation for my continued faith in God is grounded in the absolute, definite proof of God in my life.
Faith isn’t blind at all LOL. In fact it’s HEAVILY anchored in solid proof. Now that proof is often acquired individually through special revelation, but that collective proof is merely evidence for others to consider. Problem is people dismiss evidence for God immediately without consideration because it conflicts with ingrained presuppositions that are typically unyielding and unchanging for those that possess them. Evidence is meant to be followed to a conclusion, but refusal to do so is simply willful ignorance. You follow evidence for scientific ideas to a natural conclusion. You follow evidence for spiritual ideas to a supernatural conclusion. Same procedure yet mutually exclusive of one another. Rejecting spiritual evidence for God by nonbelievers, atheists, agnostics, etc…..often comes down to one simple idea……they desire a complete lack of accountability as it pertains to God’s laws. They make themselves into little Gods and follow their own will, their own destinies…..so be it.
I have ABSOLUTE, 100% proof of God’s existence, but it’s only proof for me. It’s evidence for everyone else to consider. There’s a mountain of evidence for God but as I said it’s typically dismissed out of hand.
What type of evidence do we have?
For believers, you should note that the tactics of the nonbeliever are simply a word game to avoid accountability to a God they know exists and suppress with all their might. The demands for a "cogent definition of God" are purely subjective and open to limitless interpretation. It's worldly, subjectivity at its finest and it's abjectly flawed. Many atheists simply require specific conditions for a base definition and regardless of how far the argument unravels the unbeliever can always revert back to the "errored definition" position if need be....it's a crutch. It's akin to starting an argument with "ok, you can only say this and this....now go." Always be aware of the "what do you mean by [insert word]" tactics and the use of the Platonic ideologies such as "what is the essence of a chair" or "what is chairness" positions....they are escape and avoidance tactics.
And also realize that "verifiable, concrete proof of the demanded claim" is always grounded in the finite, natural presuppositions of scientific requirements. I often chuckle when the infinite (God) is demanded to be defined by the standards of the finite (God's creation) of which he (God) transcends. Also note that whatever evidence is presented will be rejected as definite choices have already been made by the atheist.
Atheism stands firm on a platform of scientific evidence and follow that scientific evidence to a conclusion, but RARELY (if ever) will the atheist/nonbeliever uphold that same standard and proactively follow the evidence for God through to its end. A person has to be willing to follow the evidence and the commands of scripture. We are subject to the terms God has set forth in his scripture and if you refuse to abide by those terms then you will remain lost.
I follow biological evidence for biological conclusions. Historical evidence for historical conclusions. Archeological evidence for archeological conclusions. Theological evidence for theological conclusions. Sometimes a combination of evidence is followed. Point is I investigate before I reach the conclusion and I investigate as is appropriate for the situation or conclusion. I also fully consider the words of those that know better than I do about a particular topic. If I'm told that a biological conclusion has specific requirements I don't demand evidence grounded in the culinary arts. I don't demand that doors requiring keys only be opened with toasters or unicorn blood because that's my personal preference. And when my personal preferences aren't met I don't capriciously claim the conclusion in question is false because I refuse to abide by its terms.
complete and utter nonsense. Welcome back! :)
It's quite insulting. I don't know if it is intentional or you are just so unaware of the insult. For example I could go on to say that you are so cloaked in self righteousness from your thinking that your personal belief in this god somehow makes you superior to those who don't share your belief. I could also say that people who believe in a god or feel the need to believe in a god do so because they are too weak to face the fact they are responsible for their lives and they use it as a crutch for things that go wrong. "God is teaching me a lesson with the bankruptcy" no, you just made bad decisions.
I think it makes you feel better about your belief when you can simply explain away why people who seem intelligent, educated and reasonable fail to believe like you do. It can't possibly be because the evidence is lacking or you are gullible it is simply that they, for some reason, don't want to adhere to the "rules" of a god (That by the way, seems to let you do pretty much what you want as long as you ask forgiveness so I don't see the hardship) ... ok I got to this point and realized your position on that is so ludicrous it really didn't deserve the time I spent on it. Haters gonna hate ;D
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complete and utter nonsense. Welcome back! :)
It's quite insulting. I don't know if it is intentional or you are just so unaware of the insult. For example I could go on to say that you are so cloaked in self righteousness from your thinking that your personal belief in this god somehow makes you superior to those who don't share your belief. I could also say that people who believe in a god or feel the need to believe in a god do so because they are too weak to face the fact they are responsible for their lives and they use it as a crutch for things that go wrong. "God is teaching me a lesson with the bankruptcy" no, you just made bad decisions.
I think it makes you feel better about your belief when you can simply explain away why people who seem intelligent, educated and reasonable fail to believe like you do. It can't possibly be because the evidence is lacking or you are gullible it is simply that they, for some reason, don't want to adhere to the "rules" of a god (That by the way, seems to let you do pretty much what you want as long as you ask forgiveness so I don't see the hardship) ... ok I got to this point and realized your position on that is so ludicrous it really didn't deserve the time I spent on it. Haters gonna hate ;D
If it's insulting it's because it's convicting for so many....I'm well aware that people don't like it.
Unbelievers often substitute evil for good and good for evil.
As a person I'm no better than anyone else, but my in terms of my eternity I'm absolutely better off than every unbeliever that has ever existed that died in their unbelief.
Correct, unbelievers don't want God's rules they want their own.
It's perfectly fine to spin my beliefs however you prefer. In the end we'll each be judged for our own actions.
I'm not back....just a stop in between collecting post history. ;)
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If it's insulting it's because it's convicting for so many....I'm well aware that people don't like it.
Unbelievers often substitute evil for good and good for evil.
As a person I'm no better than anyone else, but my in terms of my eternity I'm absolutely better off than every unbeliever that has ever existed that died in their unbelief.
Correct, unbelievers don't want God's rules they want their own.
It's perfectly fine to spin my beliefs however you prefer. In the end we'll each be judged for our own actions.
I'm not back....just a stop in between collecting post history. ;)
Again.. "gods rules" don't seem to bug a lot of believers. I suppose I could just say I believe in the biblical god and continue to live my life as I do... and occasionally ask forgiveness just in case.. like so many Christians I know,. but I prefer to be intellectually honest. The only rule I violate more than the average christian (And I'm pretty sure I violate many a lot less) is I lack belief in this biblical god.
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I guess they don't. I'll continue to point out the contradiction.
Why do you care? I find it fascinating that atheists spend so much time talking about something they don't believe exists. Along with filing lawsuits, forming organizations, publishing books and magazines. Even forming atheist churches. They are just as dogmatic as committed Christians.
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Why do you care? I find it fascinating that atheists spend so much time talking about something they don't believe exists. Along with filing lawsuits, forming organizations, publishing books and magazines. Even forming atheist churches. They are just as dogmatic as committed Christians.
Many people, not saying you, but many people have their head in the sand and don't realize that religion left unchecked has a history of not panning out well for everyone. When religious people want to mix their religion with government and laws, it is a bad idea. So people who don't believe in the supernatural have to get involved to make sure they don't go unchecked to avoid a religious state. Other than that, most non believers wouldn't care.
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Many people, not saying you, but many people have their head in the sand and don't realize that religion left unchecked has a history of not panning out well for everyone. When religious people want to mix their religion with government and laws, it is a bad idea. So people who don't believe in the supernatural have to get involved to make sure they don't go unchecked to avoid a religious state. Other than that, most non believers wouldn't care.
Atheists are not filing lawsuits claiming emotional distress caused by seeing religious symbols on public property because they are concerned about some greater good. They are doing those things because they are extremists who believe the public square has to be cleansed of all religious references. It's a whacked out view and frankly sort of pathological that they get worked up over something they do not believe exists.
Religion is part of the foundation of the greatest country on earth. It was worked out phenomenally well in the U.S.
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Atheists are not filing lawsuits claiming emotional distress caused by seeing religious symbols on public property because they are concerned about some greater good. They are doing those things because they are extremists who believe the public square has to be cleansed of all religious references. It's a whacked out view and frankly sort of pathological that they get worked up over something they do not believe exists.
Religion is part of the foundation of the greatest country on earth. It was worked out phenomenally well in the U.S.
You certainly have a right to that opinion.
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You certainly have a right to that opinion.
Part opinion. Part fact.
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A007: If you could find a single word to describe the most valuable thing in your life, what would it be?
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A007: If you could find a single word to describe the most valuable thing in your life, what would it be?
I have to admit..that is a unique question. awesome would be my first answer.
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I have to admit..that is a unique question. awesome would be my first answer.
Oh, I think you upped me. ;D ;D How'd it show itself to be exceedingly valuable in your life? (if i may ask)
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Oh, I think you upped me. ;D ;D How'd it show itself to be exceedingly valuable in your life? (if i may ask)
The most valuable thing in my life is life itself. Without that, nothing else really matters
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The most valuable thing in my life is life itself. Without that, nothing else really matters
Of all the things that'd then be described as "nothing", if without a life: which of them do you keep closest to your heart, so to speak?
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Btw, you know I'm not trying to be any sort of wiseass. I'm trying to learn about human nature, as a general thing. You've always been a very good sport with these sorts of discussions and I really do appreciate it.
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Btw, you know I'm not trying to be any sort of wiseass. I'm trying to learn about human nature, as a general thing. You've always been a very good sport with these sorts of discussions and I really do appreciate it.
I enjoy a philosophical discussion. The danger is, I'm not all that complex/smart and sometimes the questions can be so abstract as to lose me. I'd say I value my family the most. what about you?
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I enjoy a philosophical discussion. The danger is, I'm not all that complex/smart and sometimes the questions can be so abstract as to lose me. I'd say I value my family the most. what about you?
If you mean it's love you value most, and I'm sure you must, then we're the same in that regard.
At the same time, some individuals wouldn't value it at all - some to the point they can't recognize what it is, and don't believe it exists.
We'd be at a loss to explain it to them in logical terms, certainly.
It's an interesting parallel to this subject, for sure. And I get to see you on the other side of it, which is a rare sight!! :)
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When I was in college there were the glazed-eyed students who would try to recruit you into the reborn Christian movement.
These kids were lost and looking for something like the author of the article. They were having emotional problems and latched onto the reborn thing. Nutty.
I told my own kids to watch out for these types when they went to college. They are still out there with the glazed-eyes.
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When I was in college there were the glazed-eyed students who would try to recruit you into the reborn Christian movement.
These kids were lost and looking for something like the author of the article. They were having emotional problems and latched onto the reborn thing. Nutty.
I told my own kids to watch out for these types when they went to college. They are still out there with the glazed-eyes.
Then there are those people who experience hard times or a tragedy in their lives and become atheist as a result. Many of them are bitter. Doesn't downplay whatever they experienced, but does explain why a lot of people convert to the atheist religion.
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Then there are those people who experience hard times or a tragedy in their lives and become atheist as a result. Many of them are bitter. Doesn't downplay whatever they experienced, but does explain why a lot of people convert to the atheist religion.
Wouldn't know as I'm not an atheist but I'm sure that happens. Atheism is just another "-ism".
People who suffer emotional problems grab onto whatever they can.
Some find go to a psychiatrist, some go to church, some turn to drugs and alcohol, etc.
Beware all "-isms".
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Good story.
I was a committed atheist and then this incredible thing happened to me
Lenya Heitzig By Lenya Heitzig | Fox News
My atheist father raised me on fanciful parables where the moral of the story concluded that God did not and could not exist. His strong belief in human ability and the power of positive thinking laced my childhood with quips like “What one conceives and then believes can be achieved.” No pie in the sky in the sweet by-and-by awaited us. Instead, if I wanted help, I needed look no further than the end of my own arm.
By my college days, my arms were weighed down by the baggage of my parent’s divorce, an absentee father, and a stoically distant step-father. Like many college coeds, I tried to cope with one-night stands, binge drinking, and recreational drugs. But at night when the lights were out, I was left wondering, Is there something more to life? Unlike Wonder Woman, I possessed no ability to rescue others, least of all myself from these destructive behaviors.
A Message from Stansberry Research
Guess Who's About To Go Bankrupt In America
Man who predicted the collapse of GM, Fannie, and Freddie says the next big bankruptcy is going to catch everyone by surprise.
During my sophomore year, my dad—now a doctor, law student, and author—had a born-again experience after reading a red letter edition of the Bible to determine whether Jesus professed positive things. His newfound faith threatened me. Outwardly, I wildly mocked him. Inwardly, his reversal of worldviews launched me on a quest to discover the meaning of life.
I took a class on non-Western religions like Buddhism, Taoism, and Hinduism. I interviewed classmates about their belief systems while we stood around a keg smoking joints. Family members tried to draw me back into their godless fold with words devoid of logic or comfort.
Something I read in chapter 3, “Does God Really Speak to Us,?” chafed against my scientific belief in evolution. Billy Graham proposed that God is a Creator who speaks through nature, whether in a crying infant or the song of a bird. “Yeah, right,” I blurted out.
One day, I passed a bookstore where Billy Graham’s new book “How to Be Born Again” beckoned to me like a neon light. I tucked the volume into my beach bag, grabbed a six-pack, and drove to the sand-duned shores of Lake Michigan to party with friends. While they hit the waves, I spread out a blanket to soak up the sun.
Something I read in chapter 3, “Does God Really Speak to Us,?” chafed against my scientific belief in evolution. Billy proposed that God is a Creator who speaks through nature, whether in a crying infant or the song of a bird. “Yeah, right,” I blurted out. I arrogantly put God to a challenge and inadvertently offered my first prayer: “God, if You rule over nature, if You’re sovereign even over the instincts of a bird, then make that bird chirping in the distance fly into the tree next to my blanket.” Fluttering toward me, the small grey swallow lit upon the branch above my head. Closing the book superstitiously, I thought, Maybe God does exist and created me for a purpose.
Billy recommended you read the Bible because it contains the very words of God. Reading it introduced me to God’s great love and His ability to provide each of us an abundant life full of significance. I devoured the pages of the Bible as though all my life I’d only eaten vanilla ice cream and someone had introduced me to 31 flavors. I couldn’t get enough.
I was transformed from tending bar on the weekends to marrying a pastor who tells people every Sunday about the living water that satisfies our deep thirst for more. Who would believe that a bird and a Bible would one day lead us to becoming friends with Billy Graham and his family? We’ve enjoyed a meal in their home, traveled with them on vacation, and were privileged to participate in the baptism of Billy’s grandson William Franklin Graham IV.
I wonder how God is waiting to speak to you. You never know the audacious plans He has in store for you. Are you listening?
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/03/25/was-committed-atheist-and-then-this-incredible-thing-happened-to-me.html
Lol. What crap
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Lol. What crap
Kind of what I thought
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Then there are those people who experience hard times or a tragedy in their lives and become atheist as a result. Many of them are bitter. Doesn't downplay whatever they experienced, but does explain why a lot of people convert to the atheist religion.
Atheism is a religion in the same way that baldness is a hair color.
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Atheism is a religion in the same way that baldness is a hair color.
Not at all. I've laid out the reasons, with proof, of why atheism is a religion. It's on the board. Fits all the criteria of a religion.
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Not at all. I've laid out the reasons, with proof, of why atheism is a religion. It's on the board. Fits all the criteria of a religion.
May be the dumbest post of the day
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Not at all. I've laid out the reasons, with proof, of why atheism is a religion. It's on the board. Fits all the criteria of a religion.
You may have convinced yourself that that’s the case. It doesn’t mean you’ve convinced anyone else.
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May be the dumbest post of the day
lol. That's really funny coming from you. :)
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You may have convinced yourself that that’s the case. It doesn’t mean you’ve convinced anyone else.
I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else of anything. Just stating facts: atheist churches, atheist hymnals, atheist websites, regular atheist meetings, atheist books, atheist activism, atheist lawsuits, etc., etc. You can choose to put your own spin on those facts. I don't really care.
Atheists have a pretty comprehensive website at http://www.atheists.org/
I guess this answers my question about the atheist message. Their proselytizing is much more involved than I thought:
About American Atheists
Since 1963, AMERICAN ATHEISTS has been the premier organization laboring for the civil liberties of Atheists, and the total, absolute separation of government and religion. It was born out of a court case begun in 1959 by the Murray family which challenged prayer recitation in the public schools. That case – Murray v. Curlett – was a landmark in American jurisprudence on behalf of our First Amendment rights. It began:
"Your petitioners are Atheists, and they define their lifestyle as follows. An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist accepts that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth – for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist accepts that he can get no help through prayer, but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and to enjoy it. An Atheist accepts that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help lead to a life of fulfillment."
Now in its fourth decade, American Atheists is dedicated to working for the civil rights of Atheists, promoting separation of state and church, and providing information about Atheism.
The organization was founded by Madalyn Murray O'Hair, the noted Atheist activist, as the result of her successful battle against mandatory school prayer and bible recitation. Over the last thirty years, American Atheists has:
* Fought fervently to defend the Separation of Religion from GovernmentAppeared in all formes of media to defend our positions and criticisms of religion and mythology
* Held Atheist conventions and gatherings throughout the United States, including "Atheist Pride" Marches in state capitals.
* Demonstrated and picketed throughout the country on behalf of Atheist rights and state church separation. The organization has marched to defend the rights of intellectuals such as writer Salman Rushdie, protested the use of government funds to support public religious displays, and conducted the first picket of a Roman Catholic pope in history.
* Published over 120 books about Atheism, criticism of religion, and state/church separation.Published newsletters, magazines and member-alerts.
* Built a broad outreach in cyberspace with mailing lists, an ftp and web site, FaxNet and other projects to keep members and the general public informed.
* Fostered a growing network of Representatives throughout the nation who monitor important First Amendment issues, and work on behalf of the organization in their areas.
* Grown a network of volunteers who perform a variety of important tasks in their community, from placing American Atheist books in libraries to writing letters and publicizing the Atheist perspective.
* Preserved Atheist literature and history in the nation's largest archive of its kind. The library's holdings span over three hundred years of Atheist thought.Provided speakers for colleges, universities, clubs and the news media.
* Granted college scholarships to young atheist activists
http://www.atheists.org/about
There is an atheist speaker's bureau. These boys are serious.
American Atheists Speakers' Bureau
Educating For Reason, State-Church Separation and Atheist Civil Rights...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The American Atheists Speaker’s Bureau provides outstanding lecturers on a range of topics of interest to nonbeliever groups and other organizations. Whether it is a debate or presentation format, our Speaker’s Bureau can help to make your organization’s next meeting an exciting and informative event!
FEES AND HONORARIUMS American Atheists will try to work with you in providing a speaker for a reasonable cost. This can factor in related expenses when appropriate, including travel and reasonable per diem, and other associated costs. A suitable honorarium is appreciated from institutions.
TOPICS OF INTEREST Whether it involves a philosophical subject, strategies for defending the First Amendment or political developments, The American Atheists Speaker’s Bureau will help to find and deliver the appropriate presentation for your organization.
http://www.atheists.org/about/speakers_bureau
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I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else of anything. Just stating facts: atheist churches, atheist hymnals, atheist websites, regular atheist meetings, atheist books, atheist activism, atheist lawsuits, etc., etc. You can choose to put your own spin on those facts. I don't really care.
Atheists are religious as much as civil rights protesters were religious or women organizing for the right to vote was religious. All you've really shown is that in order to combat Religion being intertwined in government, Atheists have had to organize to insure we don't fall under a Christian Sharia law
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Atheists are religious as much as civil rights protesters were religious or women organizing for the right to vote was religious. All you've really shown is that in order to combat Religion being intertwined in government, Atheists have had to organize to insure we don't fall under a Christian Sharia law
Not the same as civil rights protesters, who successfully fought to change Jim Crow laws. Atheists are doing precisely what Christians do: have a common belief, meet weekly in atheist churches, sing out of atheist hymnals, publish magazines and books regarding their beliefs, have speakers, try and convert people, protest, file lawsuits, etc. And there is no end in sight. All the hallmarks of a religion.
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Not the same as civil rights protesters, who successfully fought to change Jim Crow laws. Atheists are doing precisely what Christians do: have a common belief, meet weekly in atheist churches, sing out of atheist hymnals, publish magazines and books regarding their beliefs, have speakers, try and convert people, protest, file lawsuits, etc. And there is no end in sight. All the hallmarks of a religion.
Except for the one main ingredient that is mandatory for a religion..
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Except for the one main ingredient that is mandatory for a religion..
Whatever that is.
They share a main ingredient of unifying around the non-belief in something. Weird, but that's what it amounts to.
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Whatever that is.
They share a main ingredient of unifying around the non-belief in something. Weird, but that's what it amounts to.
ok Except you still fall short.. but whatever