MOS should stay

[Man of Steel]

kind words and thank you
my time on GB is pretty much done, but since I still mod I check from time to time
but I know my discussion/debate is finished....I mean I would love to got into the "Religion is B.S." thread on the G&O and SHRED IT, but I'm not gonna.  Everything in that thread I've already addressed over and over for years so there's no point.  Few minds are changed and the majority of minds are made up even after solid answers are given to the questions/objections.
I'm concentrating my time on my family, my church, my work and my training.....GB occupied more than enough time in my life already.....good times, bad times and blah times but time to move on
I come on here once in awhile to continue to collect my old post history, check on mod stuff and when I'm done collecting my post history I'll simply walk away like Bill Bixby carrying his backpack on the Incredible Hulk tv series  

[Agnostic007]

Is that possibly because you'd already dismissed it, even before knowing it?  Not through lack of respect for MOS, but more through disbelief of the idea as a whole.

It's more likely I read it 4 or 5 years ago and as time goes by, memory fades. I can watch a movie sometimes that I have seen before and not recall all that happens... maybe it's just age.

[Agnostic007]

kind words and thank you
my time on GB is pretty much done, but since I still mod I check from time to time
but I know my discussion/debate is finished....I mean I would love to got into the "Religion is B.S." thread on the G&O and SHRED IT, but I'm not gonna.  Everything in that thread I've already addressed over and over for years so there's no point.  Few minds are changed and the majority of minds are made up even after solid answers are given to the questions/objections.
I'm concentrating my time on my family, my church, my work and my training.....GB occupied more than enough time in my life already.....good times, bad times and blah times but time to move on
I come on here once in awhile to continue to collect my old post history, check on mod stuff and when I'm done collecting my post history I'll simply walk away like Bill Bixby carrying his backpack on the Incredible Hulk tv series  

I was picturing a Kieth Carradine Kung Fu walk off but Bixby works. I think you made a good choice

[Las Vegas]

It's more likely I read it 4 or 5 years ago and as time goes by, memory fades. I can watch a movie sometimes that I have seen before and not recall all that happens... maybe it's just age.

Meaning that you've seen it more than once, for sure, because it was only a couple of months ago that you were involved in responding to it (on a thread in which it'd just been posted).

But I suppose it's fair to say that if you don't believe in the idea itself (Do you?) then you couldn't be expected to be concerned for detail.

Btw: Do you deny God?  If so, then what happened since the time you chose your username?

[Las Vegas]

kind words and thank you
my time on GB is pretty much done, but since I still mod I check from time to time
but I know my discussion/debate is finished....I mean I would love to got into the "Religion is B.S." thread on the G&O and SHRED IT, but I'm not gonna.  Everything in that thread I've already addressed over and over for years so there's no point.  Few minds are changed and the majority of minds are made up even after solid answers are given to the questions/objections.
I'm concentrating my time on my family, my church, my work and my training.....GB occupied more than enough time in my life already.....good times, bad times and blah times but time to move on
I come on here once in awhile to continue to collect my old post history, check on mod stuff and when I'm done collecting my post history I'll simply walk away like Bill Bixby carrying his backpack on the Incredible Hulk tv series  

Hi, MOS.  You know what they say about choosing battles.  The reason to turn from the wrong ones is to cover your interest in the right ones.

So maybe the right battle is somewhere else for you, right now.  But you can't say where it'll be in the future, necessarily.  Maybe it'll turn out be here, as it's been known to happen that GB can get an interesting fight going.  One worth driving a stake of truth into, which might otherwise go undone.

[illuminati]

kind words and thank you
my time on GB is pretty much done, but since I still mod I check from time to time
but I know my discussion/debate is finished....I mean I would love to got into the "Religion is B.S." thread on the G&O and SHRED IT, but I'm not gonna.  Everything in that thread I've already addressed over and over for years so there's no point.  Few minds are changed and the majority of minds are made up even after solid answers are given to the questions/objections.
I'm concentrating my time on my family, my church, my work and my training.....GB occupied more than enough time in my life already.....good times, bad times and blah times but time to move on
I come on here once in awhile to continue to collect my old post history, check on mod stuff and when I'm done collecting my post history I'll simply walk away like Bill Bixby carrying his backpack on the Incredible Hulk tv series  

Hopefully you will reflect & stay
posting on less subjects or replying to less people.

We need more decent and level headed people on here
not less.

I have questioned & debated with you & as much as we may not agree
your replies have been courteous & expressed what you believe
And I've appreciated that & its made me Think.

[Agnostic007]

Meaning that you've seen it more than once, for sure, because it was only a couple of months ago that you were involved in responding to it (on a thread in which it'd just been posted).

But I suppose it's fair to say that if you don't believe in the idea itself (Do you?) then you couldn't be expected to be concerned for detail.

Btw: Do you deny God?  If so, then what happened since the time you chose your username?

seems like there is some animosity coming from somewhere and I'm not sure why. If it is really important, I will go through the threads and get refreshed on MOS' story. Do I deny god? Not sure what you mean by that. I don't believe the biblical god, or for that matter any god we may have come up with, Mithras, Osiris, Isis, Jehovah, Allah etc are real.. but it's possible something exists.. 

[Las Vegas]

seems like there is some animosity coming from somewhere and I'm not sure why. If it is really important, I will go through the threads and get refreshed on MOS' story.

No, not at all.  Just that you'd done quite a bit of back and forth with him, so I thought you were aware of the background involved.  But once again, if you don't believe in the idea to begin with, it'd be easy to understand why you wouldn't necessarily pay it much mind.

Do I deny god? Not sure what you mean by that. I don't believe the biblical god, or for that matter any god we may have come up with, Mithras, Osiris, Isis, Jehovah, Allah etc are real.. but it's possible something exists.. 

Something, as in God?

If that's what you mean: Do you discount (for some reason, any reason) that potentially, at least, it is within communication for an individual?

[Agnostic007]

No, not at all.  Just that you'd done quite a bit of back and forth with him, so I thought you were aware of the background involved.  But once again, if you don't believe in the idea to begin with, it'd be easy to understand why you wouldn't necessarily pay it much mind.

Something, as in God?

If that's what you mean: Do you discount (for some reason, any reason) that potentially, at least, it is within communication for an individual?

I have no idea. I personally don't believe a supernatural being, or intelligent form has any real reason to communicate with us. I don't believe any of us are communicating with whatever it is if it's out there.

[Las Vegas]

I have no idea. I personally don't believe a supernatural being, or intelligent form has any real reason to communicate with us. I don't believe any of us are communicating with whatever it is if it's out there.

To believe you can't have a connection with God is in every practical sense a denial of God, though.

[Agnostic007]

To believe you can't have a connection with God is in every practical sense a denial of God, though.

I lack belief in a god, if that is also considered to be "a denial of god" ok

[Las Vegas]

I lack belief in a god, if that is also considered to be "a denial of god" ok

By saying "lack" to describe where you're at: Could you go into that a bit more if you don't mind?

BTW, I'm a little late to the Religious Debate Board party so I'm not 100% familiar with your ideas on the subject.  Pardon it, please, if you have to retrace some of your ground.

[Agnostic007]

By saying "lack" to describe where you're at: Could you go into that a bit more if you don't mind?

BTW, I'm a little late to the Religious Debate Board party so I'm not 100% familiar with your ideas on the subject.  Pardon it, please, if you have to retrace some of your ground.

I grew up going to Church of Christ, and then 1st Baptist. Baptized probably around 12 or so. I was a avid churchgoer through high school, even filled in on a few occasions for the preacher on Sundays. Later in life around 33 or 34 I had found myself drifted away from my relationship with God, not that I was doing anything wrong, I just wasn't studying the bible or witnessing like I felt a follower of Christ should. So one day I made a decision to re devote my life and get back into the word. I began reading the bible again, and reading or re reading  books  by Josh McDowell, C.S. Lewis and Lee Strobel. this time however I wanted to increase my knowledge of what non believers were thinking so that I might be prepared if the opportunity to witness to them came up. In the course of reading secular works on the subject I was surprised to learn claims, or evidences I had always thought were indisputable, were actually highly disputed by secular scholars and even some non secular scholars. Learning about the Nicean council in the 4th century where humans decided on what manuscripts to keep, what to declare as fake was interesting.  I suppose that planted a seed and over the next couple years I considered that it was possible the bible wasn't entirely true. That eventually lead to me at some point reluctantly determining what was more likely, the bible is true, or a collection of manuscripts written my men of that time about what was happening and their attempts to rationalize it into something they could understand.
I decided that it wasn't enough just to want it to be true, but what was the likelihood based on all I had read about it both pro and con, that it was true. I decided it wasn't true. Eventually that lead to my lack of belief the bible god exists and pretty much all the ones we have put names to.. I believe those are creations of our own, the old saying,  God didn't create us in his image, we created him in ours, holds true for me.       

[Las Vegas]

I grew up going to Church of Christ, and then 1st Baptist. Baptized probably around 12 or so. I was a avid churchgoer through high school, even filled in on a few occasions for the preacher on Sundays. Later in life around 33 or 34 I had found myself drifted away from my relationship with God, not that I was doing anything wrong, I just wasn't studying the bible or witnessing like I felt a follower of Christ should. So one day I made a decision to re devote my life and get back into the word. I began reading the bible again, and reading or re reading  books  by Josh McDowell, C.S. Lewis and Lee Strobel. this time however I wanted to increase my knowledge of what non believers were thinking so that I might be prepared if the opportunity to witness to them came up. In the course of reading secular works on the subject I was surprised to learn claims, or evidences I had always thought were indisputable, were actually highly disputed by secular scholars and even some non secular scholars. Learning about the Nicean council in the 4th century where humans decided on what manuscripts to keep, what to declare as fake was interesting.  I suppose that planted a seed and over the next couple years I considered that it was possible the bible wasn't entirely true. That eventually lead to me at some point reluctantly determining what was more likely, the bible is true, or a collection of manuscripts written my men of that time about what was happening and their attempts to rationalize it into something they could understand.
I decided that it wasn't enough just to want it to be true, but what was the likelihood based on all I had read about it both pro and con, that it was true. I decided it wasn't true. Eventually that lead to my lack of belief the bible god exists and pretty much all the ones we have put names to.. I believe those are creations of our own, the old saying,  God didn't create us in his image, we created him in ours, holds true for me.       

OK, so no I did not have an understanding of where you're at.  I hadn't realized any of this.

Something I find very interesting, is that you often forward your ideas about it in the positive rather than the negative.  Meaning to say that you sort of affirm a presence -- instead of doing what someone might expect: the opposite.  You refer to a "lack" when you connect yourself with the idea, and you just referred to a relationship with God.

Why's that, would you say?  What about it causes you to do that, as you're applying your thought to it?

[Agnostic007]

OK, so no I did not have an understanding of where you're at.  I hadn't realized any of this.

Something I find very interesting, is that you often forward your ideas about it in the positive rather than the negative.  Meaning to say that you sort of affirm a presence -- instead of doing what someone might expect: the opposite.  You refer to a "lack" when you connect yourself with the idea, and you just referred to a relationship with God.

Why's that, would you say?  What about it causes you to do that, as you're applying your thought to it?

I've realized over the years that phrasing it as "I lack belief in a god or gods" is the simplist form I can think of to communicate my current situation. Just as I lack belief in Santa or the Lochness Monster. If I say "I don't believe there is a god" it somehow gets interpreted as an action like I refuse to believe in a god for some reason. 

[Las Vegas]

I've realized over the years that phrasing it as "I lack belief in a god or gods" is the simplist form I can think of to communicate my current situation. Just as I lack belief in Santa or the Lochness Monster. If I say "I don't believe there is a god" it somehow gets interpreted as an action like I refuse to believe in a god for some reason. 

But it's true, right?  You do think you've found some reason not to believe in God.

[Agnostic007]

But it's true, right?  You do think you've found some reason not to believe in God.

In a nutshell, I think the evidence the bible is made up of oral fables passed on and finally making it into a book outweighs significantly any evidence the bible is an actually true accounting of what happened 2000-5000 years ago.   

[Las Vegas]

In a nutshell, I think the evidence the bible is made up of oral fables passed on and finally making it into a book outweighs significantly any evidence the bible is an actually true accounting of what happened 2000-5000 years ago.   

Is it that you'd rather not have someone attempt to defend each letter of a Bible?  Maybe to avoid feeling bogged down in something you know s/he will be so heavily invested in, but that you already feel confident in knowing, say.

I'd like to figure out how your expressions of recognition/affirmation fit in to that.

[Agnostic007]

Is it that you'd rather not have someone attempt to defend each letter of a Bible?  Maybe to avoid feeling bogged down in something you know s/he will be so heavily invested in, but that you already feel confident in knowing, say.

I'd like to figure out how your expressions of recognition/affirmation fit in to that.

Typically, most people I have gotten into discussions with were not well informed on any information that didn't originate from a apologist source. For example, they may say "The bible is true because the authors of the old testament predicted exactly or almost exactly things in the New Testament that happened, that couldn't be possible unless the prophets of the Old Testament had spiritual guidance. I know I've said that before in my youth.

When I point out the writers of the New Testament had access to , and knew very well what had been prophesied in the Old Testament and since the New Testament was written after Jesus' death; they could easily just fit the story to the prophecies, we move on to the next apologist argument and so on. At the end of the day, it's usually a waste of time for both of us. I truly have no interest in changing anyone's mind, as long as they aren't legislating their beliefs or forcing their religious beliefs and rituals on me. But if someone feels like they want to engage me in a civil discussion about it I certainly have been known to talk about it. I have forgotten much of the information I learned over the last 15-20 years as once I came to the decision, and spent some time making sure, I stopped studying it.  At the end of the day, I'm just responsible for what I believe or don't believe, and it's just my personal opinion.     

[Las Vegas]

Typically, most people I have gotten into discussions with were not well informed on any information that didn't originate from a apologist source. For example, they may say "The bible is true because the authors of the old testament predicted exactly or almost exactly things in the New Testament that happened, that couldn't be possible unless the prophets of the Old Testament had spiritual guidance. I know I've said that before in my youth.

When I point out the writers of the New Testament had access to , and knew very well what had been prophesied in the Old Testament and since the New Testament was written after Jesus' death; they could easily just fit the story to the prophecies, we move on to the next apologist argument and so on. At the end of the day, it's usually a waste of time for both of us. I truly have no interest in changing anyone's mind, as long as they aren't legislating their beliefs or forcing their religious beliefs and rituals on me. But if someone feels like they want to engage me in a civil discussion about it I certainly have been known to talk about it. I have forgotten much of the information I learned over the last 15-20 years as once I came to the decision, and spent some time making sure, I stopped studying it.  At the end of the day, I'm just responsible for what I believe or don't believe, and it's just my personal opinion.     

It's an appeal purely to logic, then, that you'd make in such a discussion.  That raises some really interesting questions about how an individual thinks, anyone at all, and it's something I've often wondered upon.  IMO it would be extremely difficult (impossible, really) for a person to attempt to subject conscience to logic, though, without becoming fair game for all the bad things in this world.  The short exchange I had with MoS on the "Allah is Satan" thread, kind of distilled that thought for me.

But then, of course, logic's all we have to reliably communicate structured ideas with one another.  Right there, I'd have to say is the hangup when it comes to this subject.

What caused you to return to religion for the short time that you did, if I may ask.  What sorts of thoughts were you experiencing at that time?  Longing, certainly.

[Agnostic007]

It's an appeal purely to logic, then, that you'd make in such a discussion.  That raises some really interesting questions about how an individual thinks, anyone at all, and it's something I've often wondered upon.  IMO it would be extremely difficult (impossible, really) for a person to attempt to subject conscience to logic, though, without becoming fair game for all the bad things in this world.  The short exchange I had with MoS on the "Allah is Satan" thread, kind of distilled that thought for me.

But then, of course, logic's all we have to reliably communicate structured ideas with one another.  Right there, I'd have to say is the hangup when it comes to this subject.

What caused you to return to religion for the short time that you did, if I may ask.  What sorts of thoughts were you experiencing at that time?  Longing, certainly.

I don't really look at it as a return to religion. I had just become the average Christian.. say I believe, believe I believe but not really being that light Christians are supposed to be where people look at your life and say "Whats different about him or her... " or witnessing to people which is what Christians are supposed to do. Some do it by being jerks in their lives.. (think of some on this board) and then going to church on Easter Sunday and Christmas .But they would cheat you out of a dollar if the opportunity came up. Others live their lives as an example of how Christ wanted them to, and those are the ones I respect, and would want to emulate. So it was more a rededication than a return, and it was because I just felt I need to pump up the intensity a bit as I was luke warm at the time and the bible says if you are luke warm, you get spit out. 

[Las Vegas]

I don't really look at it as a return to religion. I had just become the average Christian.. say I believe, believe I believe but not really being that light Christians are supposed to be where people look at your life and say "Whats different about him or her... " or witnessing to people which is what Christians are supposed to do. Some do it by being jerks in their lives.. (think of some on this board) and then going to church on Easter Sunday and Christmas .But they would cheat you out of a dollar if the opportunity came up. Others live their lives as an example of how Christ wanted them to, and those are the ones I respect, and would want to emulate. So it was more a rededication than a return, and it was because I just felt I need to pump up the intensity a bit as I was luke warm at the time and the bible says if you are luke warm, you get spit out.  

Being raised in it, as you were, do you think that you internalized it only as a cultural thing?  The culture of your own immediate family, even.

[Agnostic007]

Being raised in it, as you were, do you think that you internalized it only as a cultural thing?  The culture of your own immediate family, even.

Probably not

[Las Vegas]

Probably not

What causes you to say that?

[Agnostic007]

What causes you to say that?

I thought about your question and it may be that I'm not understanding it. Are you asking if growing up in the bible belt of the US in a home where at least one parent was Christian had an impact on what I believed? If so then absolutely. There is little doubt in my mind that had I been born in an area that was 99% Muslim, and at least one of my parents were Muslim and introduced me to Islam, I would likely have been Muslim.