Dan and Bob, regarding Triple H's comments about the Bret Hart incident ...

[The_Punisher]

So The Rock made 4 million a year and used it to launch his career as an actor. So tell me how he got screwed again?

Vince puts out his own money and took a risk by building the WWF into a national corporation form a territorial one. He put wrestling on the map and brought in billions of dollars, I wasn't aware that you weren't allowed to make money off your own business. I din't realize that he was running a non-profit charity 

I never said The Rock got screwed. Not everybody at WWE is a super star. Vince wouldn't screw his superstars, he's not stupid; those guys made him billions, I thought the rock was making way more than just over $4 million giving the fact that his presence alone brought huge ratings. If vince is a billionaire, then his superstar must have millions

[mrsirjojo]

Firstly, to be clear, the Rock's first movie was produced by the WWE while he was under contract to them. No doubt he was paid for the film, but he now makes them on his own, without the WWE's backing. WWE also produced The Marine with John Cena, and See No Evil with Kane. This isn't really relevant though.

Whether or not you make a million, or 10 dollars an hour is not relevant to whether or not you have been screwed. Imagine if your government came to your nice house, took all your possessions but left you with enough to eat. Would you like it if they said..."You think you have it bad..In Africa, they don't even have food!"

No one was talking about being screwed out of money, the issue was whether or not an employer screwed over an employee after they had reached an agreement.
Vince could have told Bret that he wasn't going to let him wrestle, since he refused to lose on Vince's terms, and he could have then sued Bret for breach of contract.

Likewise, Bret could have lost the match Vince's way, but forced Vince to pay him his salary and keep him in the WWE, as stipulated in his new contract. But Bret did not take Vince to court, asking instead that he go out on his terms. The two had an off the books understanding. Then Vince broke that promise. Triple H made no mention of this broken promise.

To reiterate...the double cross against Bret was not part of the wrestling "story". It was a real case of an employer backstabbing his employee. That should not be overlooked just because "showbiz" is often harsh. Boxing is harsh too, but sucker punching your opponent after a match is not part of boxing. Vince lied to, and betrayed, Bret, outside the realm of wrestling, even though the betrayal was publicly displayed in the ring.

Also, this whole wrestling topic, as many of you must realize, is an argument by proxy of sorts, relating to the McMahons of bodybuilding.

[xpac2]

Firstly, to be clear, the Rock's first movie was produced by the WWE while he was under contract to them. No doubt he was paid for the film, but he now makes them on his own, without the WWE's backing. WWE also produced The Marine with John Cena, and See No Evil with Kane. This isn't really relevant though.

Whether or not you make a million, or 10 dollars an hour is not relevant to whether or not you have been screwed. Imagine if your government came to your nice house, took all your possessions but left you with enough to eat. Would you like it if they said..."You think you have it bad..In Africa, they don't even have food!"

No one was talking about being screwed out of money, the issue was whether or not an employer screwed over an employee after they had reached an agreement.
Vince could have told Bret that he wasn't going to let him wrestle, since he refused to lose on Vince's terms, and he could have then sued Bret for breach of contract.

Bret could also have forced Vince to pay him his salary, as stipulated in his new contract. But Bret did not take Vince to court, and Vince promised Bret he would allow him to go out his way. Then he broke that promise.

To reiterate...the double cross against Bret was not part of the wrestling "story". It was a real case of an employer backstabbing his employee. That should not be overlooked just because "showbiz" is often harsh. Boxing is harsh to, but sucker punching your opponent after a match is not part of boxing. Vince lied to, and betrayed, Bret, outside the realm of wrestling, even though the betrayal was publicly displayed in the ring.

Also, this whole wrestling topic, as many of you must realize, is an argument by proxy of sorts, relating to the McMahons of bodybuilding.

Bret Screwed Bret by being delusional and blurring the lines of fantasy and reality.

[Chick]

Must... resist... wisecrack...

 

Anywho, Bob's position on this should surprise no one. Like Alberto Gonzales - only with thicker traps - he has made a prosperous career as an enforcer for his authoritarian bosses. For both men, the "natural" supremacy of entrenched institutional power is a value so internalized as to be beyond rational analysis. Consequently, they are quite sincere - possibly even affectionate - in their licking of the boots that have stamped on the throats of so many of their countrymen. [Bob's "countrymen" being other IFBB pros, in this case.]

sounds great.....btw, I'm  not employed by Vince McMahon or the WWE. "rational analysis" would support exactly what I said...there are two sides to every story, Triple H knows better than we do, what actually went on...wrestling is a job where you are paid to play a role and a persona.

[mrsirjojo]

sounds great.....btw, I'm  not employed by Vince McMahon or the WWE. "rational analysis" would support exactly what I said...there are two sides to every story, Triple H knows better than we do, what actually went on...wrestling is a job where you are paid to play a role and a persona.

Bob, there's a difference between Triple H knowing better than we do about what went on, and Triple H honestly recounting what went on. You are simultaneously telling us there are two sides to a story, and asking us to take one man's side of what went down. Do you see what I'm saying?

[xpac2]

sounds great.....btw, I'm  not employed by Vince McMahon or the WWE. "rational analysis" would support exactly what I said...there are two sides to every story, Triple H knows better than we do, what actually went on...wrestling is a job where you are paid to play a role and a persona.

well said

[Chick]

Bob, there's a difference between Triple H knowing better than we do about what went on, and Triple H honestly recounting what went on. You are simultaneously telling us there are two sides to a story, and asking us to take one man's side of what went down. Do you see what I'm saying?

Well, you automatically assume that Bret got screwed...I take that as you believing Bret's version.

Take who ever's side you want...it doesn't change the facts that Bret got caught up in his role and took it too seriously.

[Luv_2build]

i completely forgot Bob was in the american gladiators.  Bob,  that seemed like a popular show back in the day.  Did it pay pretty decent?

[chainsaw]

I can appreciate where you're coming from, but the bottom line is, as a professional wrestler you are employed as an entertainer/ wrestler and follow a story line as a particular character.

Bret took being the "champ" too seriously, and forgot that is was just a role...even under his own name. The "Hitman" character was just that...a role.

As a paid employee of the WWE, you are expected to perform and follow a  scripted outline of a match/ series of matches against an opponent. PERIOD.

Even in your post, you ask me if I would willfully accept "defaming America, etc...."  Bro...IT'S A SHOW, YOU'RE PLAYING A PART..IT'S NOT REAL.

As HHH said..it's no different than playing a role in a movie or TV series and being told that your character is going to turn on his friends.....as the actor not wanting to do it for fear of what his fans may think of him.

Bret Hart got caught up with his character and blured the line between make believe and reality...

You are dead wrong Chick, the seriousness that he showed made him one of the greats of all time!  Thats why Arnold is great, Thats why many rockstars and movie stars are great, they take it to the limit.

[ribonucleic]

wrestling is a job where you are paid to play a role and a persona.

Yes, and sewing sneakers in a Nike factory in Indonesia is a job where you are paid 50 cents a day to sew, sew, sew for 16 hours straight until they unlock the door to let you go home. I can just picture you as the shop foreman with your arms folded across your well-developed chest, impassive as a Turkish executioner, saying "You knew what the conditions were when you took this job." 

Now obviously, Bret Hart being punished for his disobedience in leaving for another company [you know how that goes, Bob  ] by being forced to humiliate himself in front of his countrymen isn't on the same level of exploitation. But the boot-on-throat spirit of the gesture is identical.

As is a 220 nights a year wrestling schedule with no time off for injuries, I might add. And while Mr. Levesque (one of your most articulate guests ever, BTW) isn't going to call that what it is - especially now that he's managed the leap from top field hand to marrying into the plantation house - the rest of us are still at liberty to denounce McMahon as a ruthless scumbag.

[mrsirjojo]

Well, you automatically assume that Bret got screwed...I take that as you believing Bret's version.

Take who ever's side you want...it doesn't change the facts that Bret got caught up in his role and took it too seriously.

Here are the three indisputable facts then:

1) Bret Hart initially refused to honor his employer's request.

2) Bret Hart later accepted his boss' request with certain stipulations.

3) His boss then broke that promise in front of millions.

BTW, delusional would be if Bret Hart believed he was wrestling for real, and that he was his character. Just because he was an actor doesn't mean he can't be a real hero to his fans. In short, it is not delusional to say "no" to your boss, just a dismissable offense.

[Chick]

Here are the three indisputable facts then:

1) Bret Hart initially refused to honor his employer's request.2) Bret Hart later accepted his boss' request with certain stipulations.

3) His boss then broke that promise in front of millions.

BTW, delusional would be if Bret Hart believed he was wrestling for real, and that he was his character. Just because he was an actor doesn't mean he can't be a real hero to his fans. In short, it is not delusional to say "no" to your boss, just a dismissable offense.

you can stop your argument right at 1....

[ribonucleic]

you can stop your argument right at 1....

Why do I have the feeling that you'd have supported Mussolini if you'd been living in the old country back in the Thirties? 

[Chick]

Why do I have the feeling that you'd have supported Mussolini if you'd been living in the old country back in the Thirties? 

Because you're weird?

[mrsirjojo]

1) Bret Hart initially refused to honor his employer's request.

you can stop your argument right at 1....

Then let me back it up the sequence of events by one fact then, and we'll stop the argument there instead...

0) Vince McMahon initially refused to honor his contract to Bret Hart.

1) Bret Hart initially refused to honor his employer's request.

[finurface]

Unfortunately, Chick, I have to highly disagree with you on this. 



As a former wrestler myself,

ROFL


i stopped reading here.... hahahahahahaahahahaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa hahahahahahahahaha




































Ha hahahahahahahahaha ahaha aah ahaahahaha.

[ribonucleic]

i stopped reading here.... hahahahahahaahahahaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa hahahahahahahahaha

That's it... I can't resist any more. 

Yeah, what was your "character" Vince?

Manboob?

The Ebony Fuckwit?

[Colossus_1986]

Well, you automatically assume that Bret got screwed...I take that as you believing Bret's version.

Take who ever's side you want...it doesn't change the facts that Bret got caught up in his role and took it too seriously.

I understand you Bob, but you forget that Bret's "role" is his life, his career, his paycheck. Damaging someone's image like that is pretty serious. I don't think anyone in his position would have acted differently because in the end you end up looking bad on national television, worldwide, and people remember things such as that. That could change how people look at you in the sport, how well you do in the future/how much you get paid also. His career was never the same after that point in time.

[Chick]

I understand you Bob, but you forget that Bret's "role" is his life, his career, his paycheck. Damaging someone's image like that is pretty serious. I don't think anyone in his position would have acted differently because in the end you end up looking bad on national television, worldwide, and people remember things such as that. That could change how people look at you in the sport, how well you do in the future/how much you get paid also. His career was never the same after that point in time.

No...his role was whatever the storyline dictated it was...hero one month, heel the next. What do you mean "damaging someones image like that..."?

IT'S A ROLE....IT'S MAKE BELIEVE ...LIKE AN ACTOR PLAYING THE VILLIAN

Can't spell it out any easier....

[xpac2]

No...his role was whatever the storyline dictated it was...hero one month, heel the next. What do you mean "damaging someones image like that..."?

IT'S A ROLE....IT'S MAKE BELIEVE ...LIKE AN ACTOR PLAYING THE VILLIAN

Can't spell it out any easier....

These people are obviously morons Chick

[ribonucleic]

IT'S A ROLE....IT'S MAKE BELIEVE

We can discuss your Masters World Champion title later, Bob. 

[mrsirjojo]

No...his role was whatever the storyline dictated it was...hero one month, heel the next. What do you mean "damaging someones image like that..."?

IT'S A ROLE....IT'S MAKE BELIEVE ...LIKE AN ACTOR PLAYING THE VILLIAN

Can't spell it out any easier....

In this context, I agree with Bob. Losing his belt, even in Canada, would have been part of a role he played as an actor. That would have been no different than Tom Cruise voluntarily playing a villain against type in Collateral.

But it's the agreed upon script not being followed that I'm talking about, an issue outside of wrestling. That has nothing to do with the shenanigans they do in character except that Vince parlayed those events into creating the evil Vince McMahon character shortly thereafter.

See, Bret let Vince off the hook, regarding his contract, and in return, Vince was supposed to allow Bret creative control regarding how he went out. That was the agreement. But Vince broke that agreement, live on tv.

It would be like Russell Crowe attending the premier of Gladiator only to dicover the director and editors had entirely re-worked the scenes to make Maximus the villain i.e. he may be an actor, but it is not what he signed up to do.

[ribonucleic]

It would be like Russell Crowe attending the premier of Gladiator only to dicover the director and editors had entirely re-worked the scenes to make Maximus the villain

Interestingly, when Claude Rains signed up to do Casabalanca, the script didn't end with him becoming one of the good guys. So naturally, he was very pleasantly surprised in the end.

[mrsirjojo]

Interestingly, when Claude Rains signed up to do Casabalanca, the script didn't end with him becoming one of the good guys. So naturally, he was very pleasantly surprised in the end.

And back then actors worked for studios, the way wrestlers now work for an organization. So it was probably in Rain's contract that the studio owned the footage and could edit him into a pedophile if they so chose.

I haven't seen Bret's contract, but no one is disputing that it gave him some amount of creative control, and no one is disputing that he and McMahon had a verbal agreement before that night, an agreement that Vince broke, with the help of Shawn Michaels. No one said anything about about Bret Michaels, in character, smacking Bret over the head with a steel chair and "stealing the belt". To use the tactic employed by some...What happened in the ring was outside the realm of wrestling. PERIOD.

I don't think xpac2 realizes that, even though these men are actors, they have contracts in the real world that supersede their scripted behavior. How ironic that it is xpac2 who seems incapable of separating reality and fantasy, not the guys defending the "wrestler".

[xpac2]

I don't think xpac2 realizes that, even though these men are actors, they have contracts in the real world that supersede their scripted behavior. How ironic that it is xpac2 who seems incapable of separating reality and fantasy, not the guys defending the "wrestler".

It's real to me Dammit!