Author Topic: Condo for sale?  (Read 11253 times)

BayGBM

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2021, 03:30:40 PM »
Anxious Residents of Sister Tower to Fallen Florida Condo Wonder: Stay or Go?
The partly collapsed Champlain Towers South scared people who live in Champlain Towers North. But no one has ordered them to evacuate — yet.
by Kimiko de Freytas-Tamura

SURFSIDE, Fla. — Philip Zyne peered over the balcony of his condo near Miami Beach around midday on Saturday and pointed to a large crack running in the parking lot below his unit.

Normally, he might not have given it a moment’s thought. But Mr. Zyne, 71, lives at Champlain Towers North, the sister condo complex to the building in Surfside, Fla., that partially collapsed into a mass of rubble on Thursday, leaving four people dead and 159 missing. Now he was on high alert: Could the building where he lives be next?

“I would’ve never noticed that if this hadn’t happened,” Mr. Zyne said.

It is a question on the minds of many South Floridians, especially those in older, beachfront buildings that are faced day in and day out with similar outside conditions as the Champlain Towers South: salty air, rising seas, aging concrete.

On Saturday, Mayor Daniella Levine Cava of Miami-Dade County announced a 30-day audit of all buildings 40 years and older under the county’s jurisdiction, which does not include cities like Miami and Surfside, where the building fell.

Mayor Charles W. Burkett of Surfside said he was considering asking residents of Champlain Towers North to voluntarily evacuate as a precaution until their building, which has had no reports of serious problems, could be thoroughly inspected.

From the outside, Champlain Towers North, at 8877 Collins Ave., seems identical to Champlain Towers South — same developer and same design, built just one year apart. Most terrifying for Mr. Zyne is that his unit is in the same part of the building as the apartments that crumbled in the South complex, those facing the pool and the Atlantic.

“It’s scary,” said Bud Thomas, 55, his neighbor upstairs, as he also looked out on Saturday. “I’m hoping that this one doesn’t have the same structural problems as the other one.”

Members of the condominium board, who are longtime Champlain Towers North residents, said in interviews on Saturday that they are confident their building is in far better shape than the South building was, as a result of prompt and continuous maintenance.
But that has not reassured some of their residents, some of whom hastily packed bags and found other places to sleep for at least a few days in the immediate aftermath of the nearby disaster.

The Zynes left their apartment to stay with their daughter but came back on Saturday. They recalled being awakened in the early hours of Thursday by an alarm signaling that the lights had gone out in their condominium. It was only later that they realized the lights had gone out at about the same time that the nearby building had collapsed.

Nora Zyne, 69, lost three friends who remained unaccounted for.

“I feel extremely saddened — I’ve known them for 30 years,” she said. “We were all so close. I felt a sense of — can you imagine being at home in the safest place, you’re sleeping and that horrific —” Her thought trailed off. “I pray that they were asleep and don’t know what happened. You lost people you shared your life with. I can’t understand how something like that could happen.”

On Saturday, a family of four left the building carrying their belongings and grocery bags en route to a nearby hotel. “We just want to move out, just for safety,” said one member of the family, who declined to be identified.

The atmosphere in the building lobby was somewhat tense as some residents who had heard about a possible evacuation tried to press condo board members for more information.

“Have people looked at the water in the basement?” Betty Clarick, 82, who lives on the fifth floor, asked Ms. Gandelman in the lobby. (Ms. Clarick also called the building’s maintenance and management “excellent.”)

“Of course I’ve been apprehensive,” said Rafik Ayoub, 76, a second-floor resident who has lived in the building for 17 years. “We just want to make sure that our building gets inspected thoroughly.” (“They building is run very well,” he added.)

Minutes from a November condo board meeting obtained by The New York Times showed that some maintenance work was underway in hallways, which have been stripped of their baseboards and in some cases remained covered in plastic. The board also discussed a concern about planters near the pool that were leaking into the parking garage below, a problem similar to one of the most serious deficiencies identified in a 2018 engineer’s report about what was causing rebar to rust and concrete to crumble in the South towers.

A third building, Champlain Towers East, which was erected in 1994 with a different design from the other condos, stands between the North towers and the remains of the South towers.

Champlain Towers North was built in 1982, a year after Champlain Towers South. Its mandatory 40-year building recertification is due next year. Naum Lusky, the president of the condo board, said the association had begun to work with inspectors ahead of that date but now would accelerate efforts in light of the South tragedy.

He emphasized that the board in that building has addressed aging building problems as they have come up in order to avoid the kind of major repairs that had been identified as necessary in the South building before half of it came down.

“This building is spick and span,” he said. “There is no comparison.”

In a show of his confidence, Mr. Lusky, 81, who has lived in the North towers for 22 years, stayed in the building after the neighboring collapse.

Last year, the building inspected all balconies to look for water leaks and fix them. Work on the pool deck was completed about six months ago, said Hilda Gandelman, another condo board member. That work addressed the leaky planters, according to Mr. Lusky. The building manager declined to be interviewed.
Ms. Gandelman said she knows three of the people missing in the South towers. She said her friends from that condo would come visit and note that the North complex was in better shape.

“They used to come to this building and they used to say, ‘Oh my goodness, this building is so well-kept,’” she said. “‘In our building they have to ask for so many special assessments,’” her neighbors told her, she said.

John Pistorino, a Miami structural engineer, said that the collapse of the South towers did not necessarily mean that the North towers — or any other buildings in the area — were at particular risk of collapse.

“This collapse is so unusual, I don’t think this is indicative of all the buildings we have up and down the coast,” he said. But he added that the collapse was “certainly a warning to do due diligence on all the buildings, including that particular one,” to make sure that the buildings have been well maintained.

It was difficult not to worry about a 39-year-old building so similar to a 40-year-old building that fell in such stunning fashion. Mr. Burkett, the Surfside mayor, said beachfront residents from across his small town have called him, nervous.

“Are the buildings on the ocean safe?” they asked him.

What to do took over part of a special meeting of the Town Council on Friday. After consulting with other officials, including Ms. Levine Cava, Mr. Burkett said on Saturday that a voluntary evacuation might be a good idea. He planned to approach the condo board, which has scheduled a meeting for Sunday morning.

“We would rather not make it mandatory,” he said. “If there are people in that building who are comfortable staying here, it seems to me the chances are low that we’d have the same exact problem with that building. But personally I would not want to take that chance.”

Gregzs

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2021, 03:33:29 PM »
No steel I beams?

Rebar apparently.

Florida Building Collapse: 2018 Report Found ‘Major Structural Damage’


joswift

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2021, 03:35:11 PM »
Buildings dont just collapse in their own footprint.
Must have been a jumbo jet flew into it

Marty Champions

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2021, 03:51:19 PM »
Rebar apparently.

Florida Building Collapse: 2018 Report Found ‘Major Structural Damage’


i wonder if each level is concrete rebar? That would seem very dangerous

Wood frame and lightweight drywall is the way to go on a solid rock foundation
A

ThisisOverload

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2021, 03:58:42 PM »
i wonder if each level is concrete rebar? That would seem very dangerous

Wood frame and lightweight drywall is the way to go on a solid rock foundation

No, rebar and concrete is how these structures and most others are made and have been made for decades.

It's cheap and effective.

You don't use wood for buildings that tall.

You don't use steel I beams either. Too expensive and zero value.

ThisisOverload

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2021, 04:00:13 PM »
Anxious Residents of Sister Tower to Fallen Florida Condo Wonder: Stay or Go?
The partly collapsed Champlain Towers South scared people who live in Champlain Towers North. But no one has ordered them to evacuate — yet.
by Kimiko de Freytas-Tamura

SURFSIDE, Fla. — Philip Zyne peered over the balcony of his condo near Miami Beach around midday on Saturday and pointed to a large crack running in the parking lot below his unit.

Normally, he might not have given it a moment’s thought. But Mr. Zyne, 71, lives at Champlain Towers North, the sister condo complex to the building in Surfside, Fla., that partially collapsed into a mass of rubble on Thursday, leaving four people dead and 159 missing. Now he was on high alert: Could the building where he lives be next?

“I would’ve never noticed that if this hadn’t happened,” Mr. Zyne said.

It is a question on the minds of many South Floridians, especially those in older, beachfront buildings that are faced day in and day out with similar outside conditions as the Champlain Towers South: salty air, rising seas, aging concrete.

On Saturday, Mayor Daniella Levine Cava of Miami-Dade County announced a 30-day audit of all buildings 40 years and older under the county’s jurisdiction, which does not include cities like Miami and Surfside, where the building fell.

Mayor Charles W. Burkett of Surfside said he was considering asking residents of Champlain Towers North to voluntarily evacuate as a precaution until their building, which has had no reports of serious problems, could be thoroughly inspected.

From the outside, Champlain Towers North, at 8877 Collins Ave., seems identical to Champlain Towers South — same developer and same design, built just one year apart. Most terrifying for Mr. Zyne is that his unit is in the same part of the building as the apartments that crumbled in the South complex, those facing the pool and the Atlantic.

“It’s scary,” said Bud Thomas, 55, his neighbor upstairs, as he also looked out on Saturday. “I’m hoping that this one doesn’t have the same structural problems as the other one.”

Members of the condominium board, who are longtime Champlain Towers North residents, said in interviews on Saturday that they are confident their building is in far better shape than the South building was, as a result of prompt and continuous maintenance.
But that has not reassured some of their residents, some of whom hastily packed bags and found other places to sleep for at least a few days in the immediate aftermath of the nearby disaster.

The Zynes left their apartment to stay with their daughter but came back on Saturday. They recalled being awakened in the early hours of Thursday by an alarm signaling that the lights had gone out in their condominium. It was only later that they realized the lights had gone out at about the same time that the nearby building had collapsed.

Nora Zyne, 69, lost three friends who remained unaccounted for.

“I feel extremely saddened — I’ve known them for 30 years,” she said. “We were all so close. I felt a sense of — can you imagine being at home in the safest place, you’re sleeping and that horrific —” Her thought trailed off. “I pray that they were asleep and don’t know what happened. You lost people you shared your life with. I can’t understand how something like that could happen.”

On Saturday, a family of four left the building carrying their belongings and grocery bags en route to a nearby hotel. “We just want to move out, just for safety,” said one member of the family, who declined to be identified.

The atmosphere in the building lobby was somewhat tense as some residents who had heard about a possible evacuation tried to press condo board members for more information.

“Have people looked at the water in the basement?” Betty Clarick, 82, who lives on the fifth floor, asked Ms. Gandelman in the lobby. (Ms. Clarick also called the building’s maintenance and management “excellent.”)

“Of course I’ve been apprehensive,” said Rafik Ayoub, 76, a second-floor resident who has lived in the building for 17 years. “We just want to make sure that our building gets inspected thoroughly.” (“They building is run very well,” he added.)

Minutes from a November condo board meeting obtained by The New York Times showed that some maintenance work was underway in hallways, which have been stripped of their baseboards and in some cases remained covered in plastic. The board also discussed a concern about planters near the pool that were leaking into the parking garage below, a problem similar to one of the most serious deficiencies identified in a 2018 engineer’s report about what was causing rebar to rust and concrete to crumble in the South towers.

A third building, Champlain Towers East, which was erected in 1994 with a different design from the other condos, stands between the North towers and the remains of the South towers.

Champlain Towers North was built in 1982, a year after Champlain Towers South. Its mandatory 40-year building recertification is due next year. Naum Lusky, the president of the condo board, said the association had begun to work with inspectors ahead of that date but now would accelerate efforts in light of the South tragedy.

He emphasized that the board in that building has addressed aging building problems as they have come up in order to avoid the kind of major repairs that had been identified as necessary in the South building before half of it came down.

“This building is spick and span,” he said. “There is no comparison.”

In a show of his confidence, Mr. Lusky, 81, who has lived in the North towers for 22 years, stayed in the building after the neighboring collapse.

Last year, the building inspected all balconies to look for water leaks and fix them. Work on the pool deck was completed about six months ago, said Hilda Gandelman, another condo board member. That work addressed the leaky planters, according to Mr. Lusky. The building manager declined to be interviewed.
Ms. Gandelman said she knows three of the people missing in the South towers. She said her friends from that condo would come visit and note that the North complex was in better shape.

“They used to come to this building and they used to say, ‘Oh my goodness, this building is so well-kept,’” she said. “‘In our building they have to ask for so many special assessments,’” her neighbors told her, she said.

John Pistorino, a Miami structural engineer, said that the collapse of the South towers did not necessarily mean that the North towers — or any other buildings in the area — were at particular risk of collapse.

“This collapse is so unusual, I don’t think this is indicative of all the buildings we have up and down the coast,” he said. But he added that the collapse was “certainly a warning to do due diligence on all the buildings, including that particular one,” to make sure that the buildings have been well maintained.

It was difficult not to worry about a 39-year-old building so similar to a 40-year-old building that fell in such stunning fashion. Mr. Burkett, the Surfside mayor, said beachfront residents from across his small town have called him, nervous.

“Are the buildings on the ocean safe?” they asked him.

What to do took over part of a special meeting of the Town Council on Friday. After consulting with other officials, including Ms. Levine Cava, Mr. Burkett said on Saturday that a voluntary evacuation might be a good idea. He planned to approach the condo board, which has scheduled a meeting for Sunday morning.

“We would rather not make it mandatory,” he said. “If there are people in that building who are comfortable staying here, it seems to me the chances are low that we’d have the same exact problem with that building. But personally I would not want to take that chance.”

Shows how stupid people are.

Planes crash too, but you still get on them.

stuntmovie

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2021, 04:17:04 PM »
OVERLOAD, This may have been mention above already but here in LV they were in the process of building a 47-story tall hotel/condo complex (Harmon Towers) but stopped at 26 floor when someone 'discovered' that the rebar size was insufficient.

So they wrapped it up and tore it down.

The 'wrapping up' procedure was interesting  because unless you were aware that this 26 floor building was being torn down ...  you'd never know what was happening inside that 'wrapped up package'.

Why would it take 26 floors to discover that something was amiss?

I understand that it caused a $500,000,000 lawsuit.

Would a 47 story building fall down eventually if they said, "Fug it!' and continued to floor 47 without using the right sized rebar?

ThisisOverload

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2021, 04:34:56 PM »
OVERLOAD, This may have been mention above already but here in LV they were in the process of building a 47-story tall hotel/condo complex (Harmon Towers) but stopped at 26 floor when someone 'discovered' that the rebar size was insufficient.

So they wrapped it up and tore it down.

The 'wrapping up' procedure was interesting  because unless you were aware that this 26 floor building was being torn down ...  you'd never know what was happening inside that 'wrapped up package'.

Why would it take 26 floors to discover that something was amiss?

I understand that it caused a $500,000,000 lawsuit.

Would a 47 story building fall down eventually if they said, "Fug it!' and continued to floor 47 without using the right sized rebar?

The Contractor was not inspecting his materials correctly or read the construction plans wrong. It happens quite often. Sometimes they are looking at an older set of construction plans that were not final, they rebar size may have been changed due to something being added to the structure prior to the construction beginning.

Or the contractor was trying to cut corners and make money on a different size, which is rare but happens too. Then a 3rd party inspector caught it, happens a lot.

Based on the calculations from the structural engineer, if a smaller size rebar is used it could very well compromise the structural integrity of the building. It wouldn't collapse immediately, but it could over time. The calculations used are based on height, weight, loading, soil type, foundation design and seismic/wind factors. So a small change in size over the span of a building that size could be catastrophic. Concrete without the properly sized rebar is very weak and will crack/fail easily. There are complex calculations we use based on the size of the rebar and the thickness of the concrete, changing the size, spacing or tie locations will cause the entire system to fail.

Many years ago one of my young engineers designed a 5 story building. He forgot to calculate the weight of the bricks on the face of the exterior walls. Just this difference changed the entire steel size and concrete thickness. The company i worked for got sued, we had to pay the difference because they had already started construction.

These things happen, everyone makes mistakes, that's why we have some many reviews. That's why we have regulatory agencies and permitting. Code enforcement is important as are construction inspections by 3rd parties. It's all about "safety".

I've seen a lot of shit in 20 years and i've built structures all over the world. These things are NOT common in the USA, but very common in other areas.

As engineers we follow the rules, we don't get creative. We follow local code and best engineering practices, it's not very difficult, but mistake happen.

And yes, if the wrong steel was used, it has to be torn down and built correctly. I've gotten into a lot of heated debates with contractors over mistakes, they always think you can bandaid it or add more steel somewhere else, which is very rarely the case.

All i have to do is call the local code enforcement agency and report the mistake, they will handle the rest in the name of life safety.

They wrap buildings during demolition to prevent debris from leaving the property and damaging other property.

As a Contractor, if you see something that looks off, you must contact the engineer of record or it's your ass.

Edit - Also engineers don't over-engineer things very often due to cost factors, so there is sometimes a relatively fine line between acceptable and not. Back in the day engineers would over design everything just to be cautious. Not so much anymore because things get expensive fast.

I always tell people that i can design a wooden outhouse that could withstand a Cat 5 hurricane. But do you have that kind of money? ;D

robcguns

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2021, 04:50:58 PM »
I’ve never trusted buildings.I can’t stand being in anything higher than 3 stories.High up fuck the fall and low down fuck being crushed. I don’t trust anyone who built these things or the inspectors.money can bypass lots.

ThisisOverload

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2021, 06:37:50 PM »
I’ve never trusted buildings.I can’t stand being in anything higher than 3 stories.High up fuck the fall and low down fuck being crushed. I don’t trust anyone who built these things or the inspectors.money can bypass lots.

I've spent many years in Mexico, Venezuela and Thailand.

I wouldn't drive down a road in those countries. ;D

It's insane how corrupt they are.

7 years ago i was working on a bridge project in Venezuela. We designed it correctly, but the contractor was corrupt and was related to a politician.  When they built the columns, foundations and spans for the bridge, they were half the strength of what we designed. The concrete mix they used was garbage and they removed half the steel.

So they got paid to build a solid structure, built something about half the strength and pocketed the money. They made millions. This is very common in Latin America.

In Mexico we did a highway project, the concrete was supposed to be 12" thick with 16" headers. They built it 6" thick with no headers. It buckled and failed 18 months later.

Lucky for us we were only responsible for design. What they built was not our responsibility.

I could go on and on.

But i will say in America, it's very rare these days for something to go the wrong direction, but it does happen.

stuntmovie

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2021, 06:51:57 PM »
OVERLOAD, Thanks for the detailed response.

Let me add the following for general interest.

An elderly friend of mine who was a wealthy individual was involved with a company which was concerned about the Golden Gate Bridge and what would happen to it if the San Andreas did some major shaking.

Most San Andreas fault line maps show that the line runs almost directly beneath the bridge or just a few miles west of it, but I never did hear if they were successful in resolving the problem when (not if) the quake does occur .... but it is  over-due and a major jolt is expected soon and I don't want to be on that bridge when it happens.

Are you aware if anything has been done to keep it from falling over since its original construction?

Final comment .... There is a very expensive high rise residential complex  in San Fran where marbles roll off tables and down marble walkways because the building is leaning in the direction it should not.

It would be interesting to see how that problem is resolved.

Thanks again, Over.

stuntmovie

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2021, 07:07:01 PM »
ROBO, Do NOT go to penthouse apartments when an earthquake occurs!

I was in  one when a small earthquake shook Hawaii and it felt 10X worse than being on ground floor .... and very similar to being "flung" from a sling-shot from one side of the room to the other.

And don't get into falling elevators even if it only falls a few floors.

In other words ... Plan your day so this shit don't happen.

Take that from the voice of experience.


ThisisOverload

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2021, 07:40:25 PM »
OVERLOAD, Thanks for the detailed response.

Let me add the following for general interest.

An elderly friend of mine who was a wealthy individual was involved with a company which was concerned about the Golden Gate Bridge and what would happen to it if the San Andreas did some major shaking.

Most San Andreas fault line maps show that the line runs almost directly beneath the bridge or just a few miles west of it, but I never did hear if they were successful in resolving the problem when (not if) the quake does occur .... but it is  over-due and a major jolt is expected soon and I don't want to be on that bridge when it happens.

Are you aware if anything has been done to keep it from falling over since its original construction?

Final comment .... There is a very expensive high rise residential complex  in San Fran where marbles roll off tables and down marble walkways because the building is leaning in the direction it should not.

It would be interesting to see how that problem is resolved.

Thanks again, Over.

I know very little about the history of the bridge, but i know some about it's original construction. Seismic activity is very dynamic, it's hard to measure and hard to gauge what magnitude it will respond with when active. What i do know is that bridges of the same design method tend to survive earthquakes for the most part. The bridge towers have massive foundations. But the bridge itself is designed to move under seismic activity, meaning you don't want to be on it during an earthquake. You have probably seen videos of bridges flailing around wildly in extreme conditions, they are designed to do so.

The drive lanes will buckle and fail, like many other bridges have in California. But overall the bridge should remain somewhat in tact. Really hard to know since earthquakes are so unpredictable. Under a very large quake, the entire thing might collapse.

The more "rigid" an object is when elevated above the ground and supported by separate points, the faster it breaks under a certain load, as the entire structure can never move the exact same way at the same time. Having flexibility and movements allows these large structures to fail in certain places that can be repaired, rather than completely fail to rubble. Highway overpasses and bridges are the same way. Under heavy loads they shake a little, this is a good thing. When they fail it's almost always at the joints, which can be repaired easily.

It's hard to design for earthquakes and other extreme events. Sky scrapers and other large structures are built to move a little to prevent from failing. But it's not guaranteed.  It all depends on how strong the quake is and most importantly, how long it lasts. Most large steel structures can withstand a non-catastrophic failure during a normal earthquake, they are designed with a certain safety factor and can move around a little.

The residential complex is interesting, it depends on how bad it is leaning. Is the entire building leaning a certain direction? When you have foundation failures it's normal to have certain degrees of lean that are considered normal. It really just depends on how much it is leaning and what type of foundation it has. A lot of old buildings have a small degree of lean to them due to settlement of soils or movement in the foundations. Very common in Houston where i'm from due to expansive soils.

It's hard to give much of a response without having some data, but generally there is an "acceptable" about of lean or tilt to a structure before it becomes dangerous.

Gregzs

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2021, 08:08:19 PM »

Final comment .... There is a very expensive high rise residential complex  in San Fran where marbles roll off tables and down marble walkways because the building is leaning in the direction it should not.

It would be interesting to see how that problem is resolved.

Thanks again, Over.


Millennium Tower

Nov 1, 2016

SAN FRANCISCO (KRON) — A resident of San Francisco’s Millennium Tower posted a video last week of him rolling a marble to demonstrate that the building is leaning.

The video, posted by Frank Jernigan, shows the marble being rolled one way and then rolling backward to the wall.

Completed seven years ago, the tower so far has sunk 16 inches into the soft soil and landfill of San Francisco’s crowded financial district.

But it’s not sinking evenly, which has created a 2-inch tilt at the base — and a roughly 6-inch lean at the top.

The residents who shot the video said they were concerned about safety, especially if there is a large earthquake.

Millennium Partners, the developer, maintains its design is safe and says many San Francisco high-rises have similar foundations.

KRON4 is attempting to reach out to the developer to get its response.

https://www.kron4.com/news/video-resident-of-san-franciscos-millennium-tower-rolls-marble-to-demonstrate-building-is-leaning/

Gregzs

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2021, 08:15:02 PM »
After sinking 18 inches, SF's Millennium Tower finally has a fix

July 28, 2020



San Francisco's beleaguered Millennium Tower is still sinking, but a fix is finally on the way.

The last inspection of the lopsided tower revealed the northwest corner descended at least 18 inches into the bay fill at Mission and Fremont streets, but a $100 million fix for the 645-foot-tall residential building will likely begin in the fall after years of planning, permits and numerous lawsuits.

The blue-gray glassy modernist tower, completed in 2009 at 301 Mission Street, is the tallest residential building in the city and won numerous engineering awards upon its construction.

Then, things started to go wrong.

The 58-story luxury high-rise was revealed to be ... tilting.

In May 2016 residents were informed that the main tower that housed their luxury condos was sinking. The foundation at 301 Mission was built into deep, dense sand but not bedrock, unlike most downtown towers. (Though many other large downtown buildings are also constructed in the same way including the Embarcadero Center, the SF MOMA, the Marriott and 101 California.)

The blame game and many, many lawsuits began.

The building's homeowners association sued the main contractor Webcor and the developer Millennium Partners. The city of San Francisco also filed suit against the tower's developers. The developer blamed the problem on the Transbay Joint Powers Authority, which was responsible for construction of the neighboring Transbay Transit Center. All suits were later consolidated into a global agreement that is expected to be finalized next month.

As of 2018 the sinking had increased to 18 inches with a lean of 14 inches.

Then came the cracking.

Residents reported hearing various "creaking sounds," and then a "popping sound" at around 2:30 a.m. on the morning of Sept. 8, 2018.

The following day, a resident living in a corner unit on the 36th floor found a cracked window across glass that was rated to withstand hurricane-force winds. Concerns that the creaking, popping and cracking were another symptom of the structural failure grew. A report conducted on behalf of the tower’s managers, blamed the crack on an “exterior impact,” but gave no indication as to what might have struck the window.

Later that year, a solution to the blighted building's tilt was finally proposed. Ronald O. Hamburger, the senior principal engineer at Simpson Gumpertz Heger, revealed a final resolution to the Millennium Tower's sinking problem that involves underpinning the building.

The solution, likened to putting a bumper jack next to a flat tire, will involve the installation of 52 piles along the north and west sides of the tower. The piles will be beneath the sidewalk, 250 feet into the bedrock of downtown San Francisco, and be tied with the original 60-90-feet-deep foundation piles.

The plan estimates that about 50% of the tilt will be evened out over a period of 10 years as the south and eastern sides of the building come back into re-alignment with the sunken north and western sides. The remaining south and eastern sides of the building will then be anchored to the bedrock, permanently resolving the problem.

The fix will cost about $100 million.

After two years of lengthy permitting and approval processes, construction should begin in mid-November, reports the Engineering News-Record.

“The city and state had a plethora of permit requirements for us,” Hamburger said.

Construction contracts are reportedly complete and the prime contractor is in the process of securing a insurance policy, but Hamburger did not reveal the contractor's name.

"With all of the above, we have been expecting a start date around mid-November," said Doug Elmets, a spokesman for the Millennium Tower Homeowners Association. "This could move up to October, if things move at a quicker pace."

Construction is estimated to take around two years.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/article/SF-s-sinking-Millenium-Tower-to-finally-get-fixed-15439863.php#

TheGrinch

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #65 on: June 27, 2021, 10:40:45 AM »
After sinking 18 inches, SF's Millennium Tower finally has a fix

July 28, 2020



San Francisco's beleaguered Millennium Tower is still sinking, but a fix is finally on the way.

The last inspection of the lopsided tower revealed the northwest corner descended at least 18 inches into the bay fill at Mission and Fremont streets, but a $100 million fix for the 645-foot-tall residential building will likely begin in the fall after years of planning, permits and numerous lawsuits.

The blue-gray glassy modernist tower, completed in 2009 at 301 Mission Street, is the tallest residential building in the city and won numerous engineering awards upon its construction.

Then, things started to go wrong.

The 58-story luxury high-rise was revealed to be ... tilting.

In May 2016 residents were informed that the main tower that housed their luxury condos was sinking. The foundation at 301 Mission was built into deep, dense sand but not bedrock, unlike most downtown towers. (Though many other large downtown buildings are also constructed in the same way including the Embarcadero Center, the SF MOMA, the Marriott and 101 California.)

The blame game and many, many lawsuits began.

The building's homeowners association sued the main contractor Webcor and the developer Millennium Partners. The city of San Francisco also filed suit against the tower's developers. The developer blamed the problem on the Transbay Joint Powers Authority, which was responsible for construction of the neighboring Transbay Transit Center. All suits were later consolidated into a global agreement that is expected to be finalized next month.

As of 2018 the sinking had increased to 18 inches with a lean of 14 inches.

Then came the cracking.

Residents reported hearing various "creaking sounds," and then a "popping sound" at around 2:30 a.m. on the morning of Sept. 8, 2018.

The following day, a resident living in a corner unit on the 36th floor found a cracked window across glass that was rated to withstand hurricane-force winds. Concerns that the creaking, popping and cracking were another symptom of the structural failure grew. A report conducted on behalf of the tower’s managers, blamed the crack on an “exterior impact,” but gave no indication as to what might have struck the window.

Later that year, a solution to the blighted building's tilt was finally proposed. Ronald O. Hamburger, the senior principal engineer at Simpson Gumpertz Heger, revealed a final resolution to the Millennium Tower's sinking problem that involves underpinning the building.

The solution, likened to putting a bumper jack next to a flat tire, will involve the installation of 52 piles along the north and west sides of the tower. The piles will be beneath the sidewalk, 250 feet into the bedrock of downtown San Francisco, and be tied with the original 60-90-feet-deep foundation piles.

The plan estimates that about 50% of the tilt will be evened out over a period of 10 years as the south and eastern sides of the building come back into re-alignment with the sunken north and western sides. The remaining south and eastern sides of the building will then be anchored to the bedrock, permanently resolving the problem.

The fix will cost about $100 million.

After two years of lengthy permitting and approval processes, construction should begin in mid-November, reports the Engineering News-Record.

“The city and state had a plethora of permit requirements for us,” Hamburger said.

Construction contracts are reportedly complete and the prime contractor is in the process of securing a insurance policy, but Hamburger did not reveal the contractor's name.

"With all of the above, we have been expecting a start date around mid-November," said Doug Elmets, a spokesman for the Millennium Tower Homeowners Association. "This could move up to October, if things move at a quicker pace."

Construction is estimated to take around two years.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/article/SF-s-sinking-Millenium-Tower-to-finally-get-fixed-15439863.php#


annnnnnnnnnddddddddd    still standing

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #66 on: June 27, 2021, 10:59:59 AM »
After sinking 18 inches, SF's Millennium Tower finally has a fix

July 28, 2020



San Francisco's beleaguered Millennium Tower is still sinking, but a fix is finally on the way.

The last inspection of the lopsided tower revealed the northwest corner descended at least 18 inches into the bay fill at Mission and Fremont streets, but a $100 million fix for the 645-foot-tall residential building will likely begin in the fall after years of planning, permits and numerous lawsuits.

The blue-gray glassy modernist tower, completed in 2009 at 301 Mission Street, is the tallest residential building in the city and won numerous engineering awards upon its construction.

Then, things started to go wrong.

The 58-story luxury high-rise was revealed to be ... tilting.

In May 2016 residents were informed that the main tower that housed their luxury condos was sinking. The foundation at 301 Mission was built into deep, dense sand but not bedrock, unlike most downtown towers. (Though many other large downtown buildings are also constructed in the same way including the Embarcadero Center, the SF MOMA, the Marriott and 101 California.)

The blame game and many, many lawsuits began.

The building's homeowners association sued the main contractor Webcor and the developer Millennium Partners. The city of San Francisco also filed suit against the tower's developers. The developer blamed the problem on the Transbay Joint Powers Authority, which was responsible for construction of the neighboring Transbay Transit Center. All suits were later consolidated into a global agreement that is expected to be finalized next month.

As of 2018 the sinking had increased to 18 inches with a lean of 14 inches.

Then came the cracking.

Residents reported hearing various "creaking sounds," and then a "popping sound" at around 2:30 a.m. on the morning of Sept. 8, 2018.

The following day, a resident living in a corner unit on the 36th floor found a cracked window across glass that was rated to withstand hurricane-force winds. Concerns that the creaking, popping and cracking were another symptom of the structural failure grew. A report conducted on behalf of the tower’s managers, blamed the crack on an “exterior impact,” but gave no indication as to what might have struck the window.

Later that year, a solution to the blighted building's tilt was finally proposed. Ronald O. Hamburger, the senior principal engineer at Simpson Gumpertz Heger, revealed a final resolution to the Millennium Tower's sinking problem that involves underpinning the building.

The solution, likened to putting a bumper jack next to a flat tire, will involve the installation of 52 piles along the north and west sides of the tower. The piles will be beneath the sidewalk, 250 feet into the bedrock of downtown San Francisco, and be tied with the original 60-90-feet-deep foundation piles.

The plan estimates that about 50% of the tilt will be evened out over a period of 10 years as the south and eastern sides of the building come back into re-alignment with the sunken north and western sides. The remaining south and eastern sides of the building will then be anchored to the bedrock, permanently resolving the problem.

The fix will cost about $100 million.

After two years of lengthy permitting and approval processes, construction should begin in mid-November, reports the Engineering News-Record.

“The city and state had a plethora of permit requirements for us,” Hamburger said.

Construction contracts are reportedly complete and the prime contractor is in the process of securing a insurance policy, but Hamburger did not reveal the contractor's name.

"With all of the above, we have been expecting a start date around mid-November," said Doug Elmets, a spokesman for the Millennium Tower Homeowners Association. "This could move up to October, if things move at a quicker pace."

Construction is estimated to take around two years.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/article/SF-s-sinking-Millenium-Tower-to-finally-get-fixed-15439863.php#
I remember watching this on 60 min or a show like that. That thing is sinking inches a year and the Florida one was millimeters so one would thing the same out come is more than possible. They are luxury condos a lot of  affluent people bought like joe Montana for outrages amounts 20 million or more

youandme

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #67 on: June 27, 2021, 02:32:37 PM »
So I’m guessing we might see a lot of the sister building condos on the market soon?

Doesn’t look like any survivors have been found unfortunately.

BayGBM

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #68 on: June 27, 2021, 03:18:23 PM »
So I’m guessing we might see a lot of the sister building condos on the market soon?

Doesn’t look like any survivors have been found unfortunately.

If I’m in the sister condo I would have been gone already.  What are they waiting for?  More evidence?  An order to evacuate? ::)

And who would move into or buy in the sister condo now?  Might as well condemn the building… or make it a homeless shelter.

joswift

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #69 on: June 27, 2021, 03:36:26 PM »
If I’m in the sister condo I would have been gone already.  What are they waiting for?  More evidence?  An order to evacuate? ::)

And who would move into or buy in the sister condo now?  Might as well condemn the building… or make it an homeless expendables shelter.
fixed

stuntmovie

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #70 on: June 28, 2021, 09:42:05 AM »
OVERLOAD, Two final questions for ya!

Is there a preferred computer app that can design a high rise apartment tower and then calculate the individual cost of everything item by item required within the construction of that tower .... to include doorknobs, windows, tubs, sinks, toilet, etc., etc.?

What are the estimated life-spans of high rise structures? Are the built to last forever?

Thanks, Over.

PS.... Thanks, Gregz! According to one San Franciscan .... They are presently working to correct the Millennium Tower situation

sync pulse

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #71 on: June 28, 2021, 01:51:11 PM »
No, rebar and concrete is how these structures and most others are made and have been made for decades.

It's cheap and effective.

You don't use wood for buildings that tall.

You don't use steel I beams either. Too expensive and zero value.


Would you say that this was a Brutalist building?

Is corroded rebar an inherent hazard in Brutalist building in general?

Vince G, CSN MFT

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #72 on: June 28, 2021, 02:28:14 PM »
I'm a Structural PE in 17 states.

There will be a forensic evaluation of the site to determine negligence on either the Engineer of Record or the Contractor (or Subs).

Going to be a few years in court.

I've been under evaluation before, turns out the Contractor messed up and built it wrong. There was a large concrete retaining wall next to a bridge that buckled after a heavy rain event. Contractor built it wrong and was held liable.

It's a terrible feeling.

I bet the Engineer for that structure design is drinking heavily today. ;D

If found negligent, the PE can lose his license for period of time or forever. They can also be criminally liable for any loss of life.

The cost of the failure will be covered by the Engineering/Construction company's insurance and is most like set certain min/max amount.


The builder died back in 2014.   
A

SOMEPARTS

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #73 on: June 28, 2021, 03:45:04 PM »

The builder died back in 2014.


He just collapsed and died?

ThisisOverload

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Re: Condo for sale?
« Reply #74 on: June 28, 2021, 04:36:29 PM »
If I’m in the sister condo I would have been gone already.  What are they waiting for?  More evidence?  An order to evacuate? ::)

And who would move into or buy in the sister condo now?  Might as well condemn the building… or make it a homeless shelter.

Zero reason to believe this.