Author Topic: A test of Getbigger's knowledge of the resistance curve: Single dumbbell lateral  (Read 11481 times)

bhank

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You know what is more important than the angle you do you side laterals or the rep scheme you use in the gym? Food motherfucking food eat more

pellius

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You know what is more important than the angle you do you side laterals or the rep scheme you use in the gym? Food motherfucking food eat more

I like your tenacity and hope against hope that someday you will make an intelligent post.

I do have a personal question and I understand if you are too embarrassed to answer: Because you live a life of privilege and are completely provided for how do you find meaning in your life? Is that why you are so concerned about the way your body looks and at 43 years of age the most important thing to you, your noble quest (as you describe it) is getting bigger muscles?

Humble Narcissist

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I made it crystal clear that no one trains exactly like Jones, or anyone else for that matter. I made it crystal clear it's the principles that Jones advocated: intensity, frequency, variable resistance, full range movement... And not the exact program he advocated 40 years ago. It always cracks me up when people like you say Dorian and Mentzer didn't train exactly like Jones advocated when both had made it  crystal clear that their methods were based on Jones` training principles. Both wanted to separate themselves from what others were doing and constantly called attention to it. Along with other factors, the main ones they advocated was intensity and how much less time they spent in the gym than their competition.

And you know ABSOLUTELY how athletes are trained? How? Who are you? What makes you such an expert? And just because the majority does something doesn't automatically mean it's the right or best thing to do.
And of course, just as I predicted, you couldn't answer simple straight forward question and had to change the terms to "a well-thought out" program. You can't because you know, and I know, and everybody else knows what the answer is and you don't want to state it because it is the one I advocate. That is proof positive that you are motivated more by your ego than finding out the truth.

Now, you just ask me a simple straight forward question and I will answer in a simple and straight forward manner as befitting a man who is more concerned with the truth and not afraid of being proved wrong.

If a person does a 100 reps to failure with a five pound dumbbell, meaning that a 101th rep is impossible despite his best effort then yes,
I would consider that an intense set.
Mentzer had his guys training once every 3 weeks at the end of his life which is idiocy.  Dorian had to retire because he was tearing something almost every workout.  Sisco and Little actually advocated training every 6 months for gains!!!  (S)HIT training just gets more and more ridiculous as the years go by.

I know that no strength trainer of any professional or D1 team trains their athletes that way.  You can look up the training programs for Alabama, Ohio State, Clemson, Oklahoma, USC, etc, etc and see their training programs.  Feel free to post an NFL or D1 college team that practices HIT.

The fact that you believe a set of 101 reps is intense shows you have no idea what you are talking about.  No strength coach anywhere thinks this.  Since you know more than literally every coach on planet Earth you should get hired to design strength programs.  The teams you train would crush every other team.

Jones was selling his Nautilus machines and his whole program was based around that.  He designed the program so that each person would go from machine to machine and be done in 20 minutes and out the door.  Gym owners loved this because it got people in and out of the gym quickly and trainees loved it because the workouts were short plus they felt they were doing more "scientific" training with machines.  Jones' "scientific" results were never replicated by any independent researchers.  Jones would just say that's because other people were too stupid to test things correctly.

joswift

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I like your tenacity and hope against hope that someday you will make an intelligent post.

I do have a personal question and I understand if you are too embarrassed to answer: Because you live a life of privilege and are completely provided for how do you find meaning in your life? Is that why you are so concerned about the way your body looks and at 43 years of age the most important thing to you, your noble quest (as you describe it) is getting bigger muscles?

 ;D

He will make one by accident at some point..

Humble Narcissist

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;D

He will make one by accident at some point..
Do you agree with Pellius that a 5lb dumbbell trained to failure is an intense set?

joswift

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Do you agree with Pellius that a 5lb dumbbell trained to failure is an intense set?
Only if you are wearing one of these.



Humble Narcissist

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wes

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That's how they are nowadays. They rather sit on the equipment texting their boyfriend rather than let you use the equipment the way it was meant to be used.

I recently stumble across this tiny gym (by today's standard) owned and operated by Chris Faildo. There's, of course, free weights, but all the machines except the leg extension and leg curl are plate loaded, so you have to actually lift the plates on and off the machine. Also, this does kind of bother me, he doesn't have enough plates to go around so you're really getting a self-imposed Farmers Walk workout during your session lugging these big plates back and forth. Also, the majority of the plates are in kilograms. They don't have a "cardio room", well they do sort of. And just a bunch of locker of to the side. No shower area so I don't have to look at these saggy old men who seem to just love to walk around naked in the locker room.

When I first saw the gym I thought, "Hmm, no cardio room, all plate loaded machines -- that pretty much eliminates the whole soccer mom crowd." I think they are the worse group because at least with men they usually will begrudgingly let you in because they don't want a confrontation and my reputation for defending Big Macs with fists and feet is well known. But with women you can't win. And no locker room so no naked men to look at.

The 24 hours gym is 3 miles from my house but I drive to a gym 12 miles away that doesn't have nearly the space and equipment as 24 does but for me it's not just about physical conditioning, it's also the mental aspect where you are more at peace with your surroundings. I always leave 24 mad and frustrated because I couldn't train the way I want to and it takes too long. Too much waiting even though I set up alternatives. And I just hate to be around so many people. At Chris' gym, it's small and there's never seem to be more than 6-10 people there. It's usually around six. So with such a small group you quickly developed the camaraderie that is almost like you had back in our day. One guy even volunteered to spot me. I almost cried as I had a Kwai Chang Caine flashback of the days of old.

Look at this. To the average person this is nothing unusual. To me, it is something I have never seen in these big box gym. All the dumbells on the rack and in their proper place. Everyone put things back where they go it.
Looks cool......I`d train there in a heartbeat.

Do you ever see Chris Faildo there?

IroNat

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Do you agree with Pellius that a 5lb dumbbell trained to failure is an intense set?

Only the 789th rep would be.

wes

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I like your tenacity and hope against hope that someday you will make an intelligent post.
I got a legit LOL out of this one.  ;D

IroNat

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I got a legit LOL out of this one.  ;D

Might have gone over Bhank's head.

King Shizzo

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Might have gone over Bhank's head.
Nothing goes over that head.

wes

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Might have gone over Bhank's head.
More than likely !!

wes

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pellius

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Mentzer had his guys training once every 3 weeks at the end of his life which is idiocy.  Dorian had to retire because he was tearing something almost every workout.  Sisco and Little actually advocated training every 6 months for gains!!!  (S)HIT training just gets more and more ridiculous as the years go by.

I know that no strength trainer of any professional or D1 team trains their athletes that way.  You can look up the training programs for Alabama, Ohio State, Clemson, Oklahoma, USC, etc, etc and see their training programs.  Feel free to post an NFL or D1 college team that practices HIT.

The fact that you believe a set of 101 reps is intense shows you have no idea what you are talking about.  No strength coach anywhere thinks this.  Since you know more than literally every coach on planet Earth you should get hired to design strength programs.  The teams you train would crush every other team.

Jones was selling his Nautilus machines and his whole program was based around that.  He designed the program so that each person would go from machine to machine and be done in 20 minutes and out the door.  Gym owners loved this because it got people in and out of the gym quickly and trainees loved it because the workouts were short plus they felt they were doing more "scientific" training with machines.  Jones' "scientific" results were never replicated by any independent researchers.  Jones would just say that's because other people were too stupid to test things correctly.

I can see my arguments are a bit over your head so I will further clarify.

You have to distinguish between an actual workout routine and the HIT principles. Yes, Mentzer, I believe went overboard. I am reluctant to discount him completely because I have no empirical evidence. It seemed so counterintuitive that it wasn't worth experimenting with. Nonetheless, he still abided by the HIT principles: intensity, frequency, duration... it is how these principles are applies that varies widely.

Yes, Dorian retired not just because of injuries as he kept on competing even after his muscle tear. He, himself, stated that he just lost the drive and desire -- a condition quite common with many, if not most, of the professional athletes. And just because he injured himself does not mean he didn't follow the HIT principles. I don't see the connection. And Humble (may I call you "Humble" for sake of brevity?), if you want to have a serious discussion please refrain from hyperbole. It doesn't help your argument but only damages your credibility. Dorian wasn't, "tearing something almost every workout." Nobody, even you, believe that.

You keep bringing up NFL teams and their training. For one thing, this is not what we are debating. We are debating intensity. Furthermore, because something is in widespread use or practice doesn't in and of itself prove its validity. This is what I mean when I say it seems this subject is getting to a level a bit over your head. You're just throwing things on the wall hoping something will stick.

You make the blanket statement that I don't know what I am talking about and you presume you can speak for ALL strength coaches, yet offer no evidence, explanation, or argument to support this charge. Just an emotional-based accusation. You seem to not understand that there is often a case where force generated and intensity of effort are inversely proportional. The lower the force generated the higher the intensity.

Jones machines were designed as an improvement over the barbell. He didn't have to "con" anybody as it was obvious to a thinking person. Just compare a typical barbell movement with the Nautilus version. Look at, say, the barbell curl. You get no resistance at the beginning of the movement and the resistance starts to increase as you curl the bar. The resistance is limited to only a downward movement. With the Nautilus machine, you can see, because of its rotary design, which is how your joints move, that you get resistance throughout the full range of motion, and with the cam design try to emulate the strength curve of the movement. Now when I say this is superior it assumes one believes that full range, rotary, variable resistance are important factors. I will admit that I don't know if it really matters in the real world. Would Arnold have developed even bigger biceps if he substituted the barbell curl with the Nautilus curl. We will never know for sure.
 

pellius

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Looks cool......I`d train there in a heartbeat.

Do you ever see Chris Faildo there?

He's there every day. Still training like he's prepping. Still pushing himself. Still eating out of a Tupperware container (I can see Joswift shaking his head).

wes

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He's there every day. Still training like he's prepping. Still pushing himself. Still eating out of a Tupperware container (I can see Joswift shaking his head).
Cool......he always looked fucking great.

CalvinH

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I like your tenacity and hope against hope that someday you will make an intelligent post.

You know had bad it hurts to compliment you but this is fantastic ;D

JustPlaneJane

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I like your tenacity and hope against hope that someday you will make an intelligent post.

Oh my.

Love that.

Hi Pellius !  🙋‍♀️

pellius

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You know had bad it hurts to compliment you but this is fantastic ;D

Well, you know what they say, "A broken clock...blah, blah, blah"

Good to see you back. I worry about you. You know, with the drinking problem and all. Missed those changing room body shots. They do have the best lighting.

pellius

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Oh my.

Love that.

Hi Pellius !  🙋‍♀️

Always good to see your name pop up on this board. People start behaving themselves.

Humble Narcissist

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I can see my arguments are a bit over your head so I will further clarify.

You have to distinguish between an actual workout routine and the HIT principles. Yes, Mentzer, I believe went overboard. I am reluctant to discount him completely because I have no empirical evidence. It seemed so counterintuitive that it wasn't worth experimenting with. Nonetheless, he still abided by the HIT principles: intensity, frequency, duration... it is how these principles are applies that varies widely.

Yes, Dorian retired not just because of injuries as he kept on competing even after his muscle tear. He, himself, stated that he just lost the drive and desire -- a condition quite common with many, if not most, of the professional athletes. And just because he injured himself does not mean he didn't follow the HIT principles. I don't see the connection. And Humble (may I call you "Humble" for sake of brevity?), if you want to have a serious discussion please refrain from hyperbole. It doesn't help your argument but only damages your credibility. Dorian wasn't, "tearing something almost every workout." Nobody, even you, believe that.

You keep bringing up NFL teams and their training. For one thing, this is not what we are debating. We are debating intensity. Furthermore, because something is in widespread use or practice doesn't in and of itself prove its validity. This is what I mean when I say it seems this subject is getting to a level a bit over your head. You're just throwing things on the wall hoping something will stick.

You make the blanket statement that I don't know what I am talking about and you presume you can speak for ALL strength coaches, yet offer no evidence, explanation, or argument to support this charge. Just an emotional-based accusation. You seem to not understand that there is often a case where force generated and intensity of effort are inversely proportional. The lower the force generated the higher the intensity.

Jones machines were designed as an improvement over the barbell. He didn't have to "con" anybody as it was obvious to a thinking person. Just compare a typical barbell movement with the Nautilus version. Look at, say, the barbell curl. You get no resistance at the beginning of the movement and the resistance starts to increase as you curl the bar. The resistance is limited to only a downward movement. With the Nautilus machine, you can see, because of its rotary design, which is how your joints move, that you get resistance throughout the full range of motion, and with the cam design try to emulate the strength curve of the movement. Now when I say this is superior it assumes one believes that full range, rotary, variable resistance are important factors. I will admit that I don't know if it really matters in the real world. Would Arnold have developed even bigger biceps if he substituted the barbell curl with the Nautilus curl. We will never know for sure.
My argument was about intensity.  I have offered evidence by strength coaches proving my point.  Here is a bodybuilding trainer spelling it out for you.
Factor #6 TRAINING SESSION VOLUME and INTENSITY
These two factors play a major role in any
weight training program. Traditionally, training
volume is emphasized by bodybuilders who want
to maximize muscle size. Intensity is emphasized
by power lifters, or strength-oriented athletes.
Training volume can be defined basically as the
measure of total weight being lifted in a workout.
It is determined by multiplying the weight being lifted by the repetitions and number of sets
performed together (Volume = weight ∞ reps
∞ sets). For example, if you bench-pressed 175
pounds for 5 sets of 8 repetitions each your total
volume would be:
  EXAMPLE
175 lbs. x 8 reps x 5 sets = 7,000 lbs.
Intensity, on the other hand, measures the average weight lifted during a workout. Intensity
is determined by dividing the volume of weight lifted in a session by the total number of repetitions performed. For example:
   EXAMPLE B
First Set: 225 lbs. x 10 reps = 2,250 lbs.
Second Set: 275 lbs. x 6 reps = 1,650 lbs.
Third Set: 325 lbs. x 4 reps = 1,300 lbs.
Total Volume = 5,200 lbs.
Total Intensity = 5,200 lbs. 20 reps = 260 lbs.
Total intensity for the first example (A) equals 175 lbs. simply because the same weight was
used for each set.
The definition of high-intensity training became confused by many during the 1980s. Some
26 BIG BEYOND BELIEF
misunderstood that “high-intensity” training meant you were putting out more effort or “training harder.” This in incorrect. In fact, if you were to duplicate the above workouts you might
well find the higher volume workout to be much more strenuous and difficult to perform than
the higher “intensity” session.
On the other hand, do not make the mistake of thinking that you could gain maximum muscle
growth by performing endless repetitions with little or no weight (no volume). This would essentially amount to calisthenics and we know this would not build a high-degree of muscle.
Understand that the terms volume and intensity are relative and our Training Model dictates
that a proper combination of both be used. As you will discover upon integrating the Big
Beyond Belief workouts, volume and intensity must be strategically adjusted over time. This
is accomplished through the application of micro-periodization, hyperacceleration, and hyperadaptation. These techniques will be explained later in this chapter.

Humble Narcissist

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One more citation on exercise intensity from Wikipedia:
Intensity, volume, and frequency
Three important variables of strength training are intensity, volume, and frequency. Intensity refers to the amount of work required to achieve the activity and is proportional to the mass of the weights being lifted. Volume refers to the number of muscles worked, exercises, sets, and reps during a single session. Frequency refers to how many training sessions are performed per week.

These variables are important because they are all mutually conflicting, as the muscle only has so much strength and endurance, and takes time to recover due to microtrauma. Increasing one by any significant amount necessitates the decrease of the other two, e.g. increasing weight means a reduction of reps, and will require more recovery time and therefore fewer workouts per week. Trying to push too much intensity, volume and frequency will result in overtraining, and eventually lead to injury and other health issues such as chronic soreness and general lethargy, illness or even acute trauma such as avulsion fractures. A high-medium-low formula can be used to avoid overtraining, with either intensity, volume, or frequency being high, one of the others being medium, and the other being low. One example of this training strategy can be found in the following chart:

Type   High   Med   Low
Intensity (% of 1RM)   80–100%   40–70%   0–40%
Volume (per muscle)   3+ exercises   2 exercises   1 exercises
Sets   4+ sets   2–3 sets   1 set
Reps   20+ reps   8–15 reps   1–6 reps
Session frequency   4+ p/w   2–3 p/w   1 p/w

Notice in the chart what the specific definition is for intensity.   Intensity is the % of 1 rep max.  Exactly what I said at the beginning of this silly argument. The full Wikipedia article is here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_training#Intensity,_volume,_and_frequency

JustPlaneJane

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Always good to see your name pop up on this board. People start behaving themselves.

Sent you a pic showing off my Power Clean “prowess”.

🤣

Let me know how your knee is coming along.

bhank

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How many pages have you guys spent arguing over subjective terms?

Let me break all this which is the best way to train rocket science bullshit down.

All training works stop doing multivariable quadratic equations and just go to the damn gym