Dick Cheney is an idiot.

[240 is Back]

Fighting the commission doesn't really bother me.  He already knew who was responsible for 9/11.  From what I recall, his advisors determined fairly quickly that Bin Laden was behind the attacks. 

How did the advisors know?  They hadn't asked anyone, they had nothing but a few weird phone calls and a bunch of burned bodies. 

Before the last plane had hit, his only talking point on TV was "We will punish those responsible".  Everyone was talking about bin Laden immediately.

You don't see it strange that the US leader would fight an investigation which would lead to uncovering the flaws that let it happen that day, which could protect us in the future?

Let's assume he screwed up by finishing reading stories to little school kids and that the "protocol" required him to stop reading to kids and start barking out orders.  Unless this inaction resulted in the loss of life or some other consequence, what's the big deal? 

many believe the "big deal" is that his failure to follow standard protocol in the case of a national attack showed that he KNEW he was safe.  And if there was another reason, they should just tell us.


Dude, the prez was shady as fuck that day and afterwards.  No other way to put it.  The US leader FOUGHT the investigation.  No other way to put it.  You can say "he already knew cause his advisers told him", but since his advisors were all neo-cons with war plans ready, would a rational man take their word at face value?

[Dos Equis]

How did the advisors know?  They hadn't asked anyone, they had nothing but a few weird phone calls and a bunch of burned bodies. 

Before the last plane had hit, his only talking point on TV was "We will punish those responsible".  Everyone was talking about bin Laden immediately.

You don't see it strange that the US leader would fight an investigation which would lead to uncovering the flaws that let it happen that day, which could protect us in the future?

many believe the "big deal" is that his failure to follow standard protocol in the case of a national attack showed that he KNEW he was safe.  And if there was another reason, they should just tell us.


Dude, the prez was shady as f**k that day and afterwards.  No other way to put it.  The US leader FOUGHT the investigation.  No other way to put it.  You can say "he already knew cause his advisers told him", but since his advisors were all neo-cons with war plans ready, would a rational man take their word at face value?

I'm not surprised at all that the Secretary of Defense, National Security Advisor, Joint Chiefs, Secretary of State, etc. were able to quickly determine the culprits.  That's their job.

So Bush knew he was safe when the second plane hit because he helped organize the murder of innocent civilians, and that's the reason he finished reading to the kids?  That's absurd. 

I'm not sure what a "neo-conservative" is, but if it means far right wing conservative, I wouldn't put Colin Powell in that category.

In the days following the attacks the president was an absolute stud.  His job was to man the bully pulpit, reassure the American people, and start planning our military operations.  He did an outstanding job.  Nothing shady about that.       

[24KT]

In the days following the attacks the president was an absolute stud.  His job was to man the bully pulpit, reassure the American people, and start planning our military operations.  He did an outstanding job.  Nothing shady about that.       

And in the days BEFORE he was satirized as a clown, a buffoon, and a thief.
911 saved his ass, ...and got the public to forget about the fact that he stole the election.

[Dos Equis]

And in the days BEFORE he was satirized as a clown, a buffoon, and a thief.
911 saved his ass, ...and got the public to forget about the fact that he stole the election.

So? 

A thief? 

[OzmO]

And in the days BEFORE he was satirized as a clown, a buffoon, and a thief.
911 saved his ass, ...and got the public to forget about the fact that he stole the election.

Yep  and i got a sun tan becuase the niners played the raiders in a pre season game.  But before that i wasn't as tan.

[240 is Back]

I'm not sure what a "neo-conservative" is, but if it means far right wing conservative, I wouldn't put Colin Powell in that category.

You seriously haven't heard of a neo-con before?

It's a fairly common term.  I recommend you read up on what that word means, and the PNAC document while you're at it.  Look at the PNAC author list, and compare that to what political positions they hold today.  It will open your eyes to a lot of possibilities.

[Dos Equis]

And in the days BEFORE he was satirized as a clown, a buffoon, and a thief.
911 saved his ass, ...and got the public to forget about the fact that he stole the election.

Another conspiracy.  Bush must have huddled with the Supreme Court and figured out how to screw up the ballots in Florida and had an opinion prepared that would have halted a recount to ensure a Bush win. 

Oh, and they hypnotized all those voters in Gore's home state of Tennessee and made them vote for Bush!  Gore could have won the election if he carried his home state.  Somebody form a commission!  I demand an investigation! 

[OzmO]

Another conspiracy.  Bush must have huddled with the Supreme Court and figured out how to screw up the ballots in Florida and had an opinion prepared that would have halted a recount to ensure a Bush win. 

Oh, and they hypnotized all those voters in Gore's home state of Tennessee and made them vote for Bush!  Gore could have won the election if he carried his home state.  Somebody form a commission!  I demand an investigation! 

There wasn't a conspiracy in the election, the American People are just plain "_________________"  (fill in the blank based on who you voted for)

[Dos Equis]

You seriously haven't heard of a neo-con before?

It's a fairly common term.  I recommend you read up on what that word means, and the PNAC document while you're at it.  Look at the PNAC author list, and compare that to what political positions they hold today.  It will open your eyes to a lot of possibilities.

I've seen the term use a lot on this board, but mainly as a pejorative, so I haven't bothered to figure out what it really means.  

According to Webster's, neoconservatism is "moderate political conservatism espoused or advocated by former liberals or socialists."  

Sounds like the oft-repeated definition of a reformed liberal:  anyone who has grown up and now pays taxes.  

[Eyeball Chambers]

So? 

A thief? 

Remember Halliburton?

[Dos Equis]

Remember Halliburton?

Yes.

[240 is Back]

I've seen the term use a lot on this board, but mainly as a pejorative, so I haven't bothered to figure out what it really means.  

According to Webster's, neoconservatism is "moderate political conservatism espoused or advocated by former liberals or socialists."  

Sounds like the oft-repeated definition of a reformed liberal:  anyone who has grown up and now pays taxes.  

Read some other sources on it.  The neo-conservative/PNAC Project used to be a small cult 'thinktank" for organized growth of US interests overseas.  No, this group runs the White House.

Read, man.  It's scary stuff!

[muscleforlife]

Read some other sources on it.  The neo-conservative/PNAC Project used to be a small cult 'thinktank" for organized growth of US interests overseas.  No, this group runs the White House.

Read, man.  It's scary stuff!

I hate fox news.  But I watch it because I want to see what other people's point of views are. 
I then can make an informed decision based on what is being reported by more than one source...fox, bbc, cnn, et al.

Bush did quote that he wasn't concerned about Bin Laden.

Now, Bush is stating that he NEVER said Iraq had anything to do with 9/11.
So, what was the point of invading?

Terroism is an ideal, it is not a place or person you can sever like frostbitten toe. 

"We're not leaving(Iraq) as long as I am president"  (over 2 years). 
"That would be a huge mistake, If you think it's bad now imagine if what Iraq would look like if the US leaves before the government can defend and sustain itself"

His rhetoric has change from "bring it on" and "the Iraqi people will welcome us and see us as liberators."

Even Bush Sr. and Clinton knew to leave that region alone.
Invading Iraq has not changed it or the Middle East for the Better.

Sandra

[Mr. Intenseone]

I hate fox news.  But I watch it because I want to see what other people's point of views are. 
I then can make an informed decision based on what is being reported by more than one source...fox, bbc, cnn, et al.

Bush did quote that he wasn't concerned about Bin Laden.

Now, Bush is stating that he NEVER said Iraq had anything to do with 9/11.
So, what was the point of invading?

Terroism is an ideal, it is not a place or person you can sever like frostbitten toe. 

"We're not leaving(Iraq) as long as I am president"  (over 2 years). 
"That would be a huge mistake, If you think it's bad now imagine if what Iraq would look like if the US leaves before the government can defend and sustain itself"

His rhetoric has change from "bring it on" and "the Iraqi people will welcome us and see us as liberators."

Even Bush Sr. and Clinton knew to leave that region alone.
Invading Iraq has not changed it or the Middle East for the Better.

Sandra

God help us all, there can't possibly be two jaguars !!

[Hedgehog]

He wouldn't explain why he calmly sat and read books that morning after the second plane hit, even though the lawyers for the 911 widows pleaded for the 911 commission to ask that Q.  And they wouldn't ask the head of the secret service about it either.  It was a very direct violation of secret service protocol, and it cannot be blamed on incompetence - Andy card and the head of the secret service were tehre and NOBODY left.

I'm pretty sure GWB doesn't want to come across as an idiot. And admitting to sitting around reading books during the biggest attack on USA since the Boston Tea Party...

He would look like someone with the intellect of a 5-year old.

And you say it cannot be blamed on incompetence? How do you know that Bush didn't tell his SS guys to leave him alone?

I think it very well can be blamed on incompetence.

And that is the reason why Bush don't want it aired publicly. Not because there's some fix.

YIP
Zack

[240 is Back]

I'm pretty sure GWB doesn't want to come across as an idiot. And admitting to sitting around reading books during the biggest attack on USA since the Boston Tea Party...

He would look like someone with the intellect of a 5-year old.

And you say it cannot be blamed on incompetence? How do you know that Bush didn't tell his SS guys to leave him alone?

I think it very well can be blamed on incompetence.

And that is the reason why Bush don't want it aired publicly. Not because there's some fix.

YIP
Zack

I don't think so.  Reporters said that the Marine with the Bush team that morning announced "We're out of here" the second he heard the news then was spoken to by the secret service and he did nothing.  At that exact moment, Secret Service protocol kicked in, and every OTHER person in DC who mattered was picked up and led underground, no matter what they were doing or where they were.

All except the most powerful man on the planet? 

No way are they that incompetent.  No way.  You're telling me that two airliners have struck buildings in NYC, klling thousands, the worst attack in history, and they don't implement protocol that they use when they get anonymous threatening calls or unsubstantiated reports? 

All I want is for them to ask the head of teh secret service why, in the most violent attack here in 60 years, he stood there and ignored protocol.  If he is that incompetent, he should be fired.  And Bush DOES NOT have the power to just shrug off threats. 

Just ask them on the stand.  Taht's all i want.

[Dos Equis]

You want the head of the secret service to tell the world about how they guard the president.  The two guys with arguably the most dangerous job on the planet.  You want them to provide "evidence" to support a conspiracy theory. 

Man this is nuts.

[240 is Back]

You want the head of the secret service to tell the world about how they guard the president.  The two guys with arguably the most dangerous job on the planet.  You want them to provide "evidence" to support a conspiracy theory. 

No.  Their policy is very public and very well known.  When the President might be in danger, they move him to a safe location.  This isn't a secret, man.

His visit was well-publicized, 3 days in advance and all over Sarasota news.  I live right up the road.  He was in a school, not the easiest place to secure.  And there were stolen planes in the sky. 

I want the head of the secret service to tell the American people why he endangered the pres by NOT FOLLOWING PROCEDURE THAT EVERY OTHER SECRET SERVICE AGENT FOLLOWED THAT DAY.   Was he incompetent, or was he following orders.  And if so, whose order?

[Dos Equis]

No.  Their policy is very public and very well known.  When the President might be in danger, they move him to a safe location.  This isn't a secret, man.

His visit was well-publicized, 3 days in advance and all over Sarasota news.  I live right up the road.  He was in a school, not the easiest place to secure.  And there were stolen planes in the sky. 

I want the head of the secret service to tell the American people why he endangered the pres by NOT FOLLOWING PROCEDURE THAT EVERY OTHER SECRET SERVICE AGENT FOLLOWED THAT DAY.   Was he incompetent, or was he following orders.  And if so, whose order?

Who cares why a secret service agent did what he was told?  And how did he endanger the president?  The attacks were in New York and D.C., not Florida. 

All you want is "evidence" to support a nonexistent conspiracy theory.  I don't blame the prez one bit for not talking about secret service protocol just to support a wild theory.  It would serve no useful purpose.   

[Hedgehog]

No way are they that incompetent.  No way.  You're telling me that two airliners have struck buildings in NYC, klling thousands, the worst attack in history, and they don't implement protocol that they use when they get anonymous threatening calls or unsubstantiated reports? 

Yes way.

We had a similar case 12 years ago, when a big ferry went down, 800+ Swedes drowned.

It all took place in the early hours of the morning, and the main Radio News station called their News Editor to inform him on the events (he was in bed and sleeping at the time naturally), and he told them to not call him again and disturb. And went back to sleep.

He was later on fired for this inability to grasp what happened.

I'm pretty sure the same thing is what's going on here. Bush wants privacy, tells his guards that no matter what happens, he don't want to be disturbed. And they obey.

An order like that would look real bad if it came out in the public.

YIP
Zack

[240 is Back]

Who cares why a secret service agent did what he was told?  And how did he endanger the president?  The attacks were in New York and D.C., not Florida. 

How did it endanger the president?  They were 3 miles away from an airport.  At that time, there were wargames going on and there were planes everywhere missing.  They did not have the information about the DC and Penn planes (hadn't crashed yet), but even a first year police acadey kid guarding a kitten would realize that if some group had the motive, ability, skill, and wherewithal to fly planes into towers, they just might have the capacity to ruin Bush's day at an elementary school?

Seriously, can anyone here with military or police expereince weigh in here?

[240 is Back]

um

[headhuntersix]

Yeah sure..look we practice and train to do all kinds of stuff...alot of the tactics i was trained on as a marine grunt have been shit canned due to how people really react in combat. As a tanker in the Army we did all kinds of stuff..drilles etc that have been proved to be impractical or don't work once they are conducted during a real situation.

The situation that day was something that we have never faced in our history. We were attacked on our own soil...almost on live TV..we watched our countrymen die on Fox and CNN. Pearl harbor has is no comparison because this happened during the information age. I remember all the crazy stuff that happened where i was. We moved armor to the main gates of the base. They wanted to start handing out weapons..this was all on American soil. I can just imagine what the situation was with the President and his team.

All we have to go on is what we have seen in the movies. Secret service agents hustling the president into a Limo. I think GB wanted to figure out what was going on and with camera's rolling...having his detail push him into car and speed off would look like panic...he did the right thing as it turns out. They got him into the air and he eventually got back to DC. There was a ton of confusion and they didn't follow the playbook...ok well shit happens. It does not point to a fore knowledge of the attack. It points to the agenst and the president being stunned and human.

[OzmO]

Yeah sure..look we practice and train to do all kinds of stuff...alot of the tactics i was trained on as a marine grunt have been shit canned due to how people really react in combat. As a tanker in the Army we did all kinds of stuff..drilles etc that have been proved to be impractical or don't work once they are conducted during a real situation.

The situation that day was something that we have never faced in our history. We were attacked on our own soil...almost on live TV..we watched our countrymen die on Fox and CNN. Pearl harbor has is no comparison because this happened during the information age. I remember all the crazy stuff that happened where i was. We moved armor to the main gates of the base. They wanted to start handing out weapons..this was all on American soil. I can just imagine what the situation was with the President and his team.

All we have to go on is what we have seen in the movies. Secret service agents hustling the president into a Limo. I think GB wanted to figure out what was going on and with camera's rolling...having his detail push him into car and speed off would look like panic...he did the right thing as it turns out. They got him into the air and he eventually got back to DC. There was a ton of confusion and they didn't follow the playbook...ok well shit happens. It does not point to a fore knowledge of the attack. It points to the agenst and the president being stunned and human.

I hear what you are saying here.  Practice and reality are often different.

But i don;t think it's unreasonable to expect more of a "reaction" from the president when he hears an airlliner crashed into the World Trade Center. 

A look of astonishment or wonderment perhaps?

A big "WHAT DID YOU SAY?"
 
seemed to be more appropiate.  Instead he just took the info and continued his reading. 

To me that suggests he was told something happened he already was expecting.

[Hedgehog]

I'm not sure what a "neo-conservative" is, but if it means far right wing conservative, I wouldn't put Colin Powell in that category.
   

Nobody would classify Colin Powell as a neo-con I believe. If you look at the Republican Party, we all know that it's quite diversified. Just like the Democrats. You'll find guys like Powell and McCain in the Republican Party. As well as guys like Karl Rove.

Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove. A few of the neo-cons in the Bush Administration.

YIP
Zack