Author Topic: Methods  (Read 12521 times)

wild willie

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Re: Methods
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2014, 05:18:30 PM »
I lately have been training with a routine like this:


an exercise for each bodypart.......3 sets per exercise and about 2 minutes rest in between sets.


it takes about an hour to complete.

20 sets or so.


hams and quads have their own and then this is what the rest of the routine looks like.....

hammer wide grip presses  3

db rows  3

side laterals  3

db curls 3

one arm cable pushdowns  3

db shrugs  3

seated calf raises  3

as I mentioned earlier......hams and quads have their own day......3 sets each......lying leg curls......standing leg curls.....leg presses.....squats.....l eg extensions.

oldtimer1

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Re: Methods
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2014, 02:47:58 PM »
I'd like to hear from guys who use fast volume with minimal rest between sets. Guys that do something like 5 x 12, 6 x 10, or 4 x 10 for an exercise with 45 to 30 seconds or less between sets trying to get the burn.  Many successful guys trained like that.

I have a lot of questions. Does it bother you that you are using light weights seeking the burn instead of training like the  guys pushing heavy weights for  long rests in between sets?  Maybe it's my ego but I have a problem grabbing a light weight even though it's hard as hell to train with a fast paced workout using volume.

Any thoughts?

Rmj11

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Re: Methods
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2024, 01:34:36 AM »
'In my way of thinking I divide training methodologies into three categories.'

'First is the variations of HIT characterized by low sets, heavy weights and training to failure. It's basically strength training.'

Nope. You can do higher sets with heavier weights and not to failure. That's strength training.

Hit, as we all know, sucks. It doesn't work.

'Second is volume. So many variations too but a very common practice is to train with the same amount of light to moderate weight, high sets, don't train to failure until it hits you on the last set; and use a weight that allows you to train quickly. It's a form of muscular endurance training.'

Best way to train for most, especially if natural.

'Third is a hybrid method where a mix is used. Heavy weight but not maximum. Training moderately fast. Maybe a pyramid is used for weight progression through the sets.'

Ramp sets or pyramid sets. This varation should only be used on basic compound movements like bench and incline press, barbell rows, deadlifts, squats etc.

Exercises such as side laterals or concentration curls or pushdowns (the secondary movememts) straight sets across should be sufficient.

The way to do the ramp sets is to use the percentage scheme. This means starting at a certain percentage of weight from your target weight. For example, your target weight is 100 pounds

Set 1 60% of target weight (60 pounds used) warm up set
Set 2 80% of the weight (80 pounds used) moderate work set
Set 3 100% target weight (100 pounds used) hard work set not to failure
Set 4 100% target weight go to failure or close to it

The first set is the warm up, the last set is the power set. The percentages can vary and don't have to be exact as long as your near those percentages accordingly.

'Contrary to the often used debate points volume works and no they wouldn't have gotten there quicker using HIT.'

No successful bodybuilder has ever used hit. Not even Yates or merhzer. It's all lies to generate money.

'HIT has been used by Mentzer, Yates, Labrada and others.'

Afraid not. They all used multiple sets to build up. 

'Volume has been used by Dickerson, Pearl, Padilla, Robinson and too many to list.'

Volume is used by all successful bodybuilders. The volume may vary from moderate to high but it's still all volume.

'In between has been used by Columbu, Eddie Robinson, Coleman and others.'

No, it's still volume. There is no "in between."

'Then you have Viator who trained with HIT and looked his best when he was doing volume for the London Olympia.'

Viator always did volume. His HIT stunt was done only because Jones was paying him. He even admitted he did more sets because Jones way wasn't really working. No surprises there because hit low volume sucks.

'What's my point in this?  There is no optimal way to train.'

Optimal is doing moderate to high volume. Decades of bodybuilding has proven this fact.

'Bodybuilders contrary to what many think are not scientists.'

Bodybuilding is really an art. It takes a lot of time and work building and crafting a physique and that means doing plenty of sets, reps and time in the gym. But everybody wants that shortcut, that's way scammy training methods like hit and Stuart Mcrobert's way of training appeal to the lazy and the naive. Promising great results by doing the bare minimum which is a lie conceived by these con men so they can make money. It simply doesn't work.

'Bodybuilders who use actual science often aren't very good bodybuilders. Genetics? Valid point but my point in the words of Jeff Everson," Until pigs fly you don't have to be a scientist to be a bodybuilder.'

If you have bad genetics then you really do need to do more work, not less. This means doing more sets, more frequency, more good food. That's what it takes. There are no shortcuts.

'Training to failure with low sets with heavy weights is brutal.'

Not really, no.

'Training with volume can be brutal too if you're pushing the muscular endurance envelope.'

High volume is harder than hit. Especially if you incorporate short rest periods, double sets, supersets, tri sets, giant sets, running the rack, drop sets, rest pause etc.

'It's like comparing a 400 meter sprinter training to 5k training. Both training is brutally hard but it's apples to oranges.'

Enough with the sprinter and marathon runner bs. That's not bodybuilding. 🤦‍♂️

Rmj11

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Re: Methods
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2024, 01:32:38 AM »
Other great methods to use

Rest pause with a drop set

Do a set for 8 to 12 reps to near failure
Rest 30 seconds
Do as many reps as possible to near failure
Rest 30 seconds
Drop the weight by 20 to 25%
Go for another 8 to 12 reps to near failure
Rest 30 seconds
Do as many reps as possible to near failure

4 sets done very quickly. You'll feel the pump and burn using this method.

Double sets

Basically you'll do 2 blocks of 3 sets each on the same exercise. The first block you'll do your main weight for 3 sets going to near failure each set with only 60 to 90 seconds rest between sets. Then rest for several minutes before repeating another 3 sets with the same weight or drop the weight down by 10% if needed.

Set 1 10 reps
Rest 60 seconds to 90 seconds
Set 2 8 reps
Rest 60 to 90 seconds
Set 3 6 reps
Rest 2 to 3 minutes
Drop weight down by 10% if needed
Repeat the first 3 sets for the same number of reps

Another way of doing double sets is using schemes like Gironda's 6x6 or 8x8 but split them up into two blocks. This way you can use a heavier weight which will result in better pumps and muscle gain instead of using a lighter weight to get all through those sets in one go. So for example on 6x6 you would do

3x6 resting only 60 seconds between sets
Then rest 2 to 3 minutes
Then do another block of 3x6

On 3x6 use a weight where 8 reps are just possible but stop at 6 reps until the last set of the 3 sets is to failure or close to it.

Instead of 8x8
4x8 resting only 60 seconds between sets
Rest 2 to 3 minutes
Then repeat another block of 4x8

On 4x8 use a weight where 12 reps are just possible but stop at 8 reps until the last set of the 4 sets is to failure or close to it.

Same can be done for 10 sets of 10 but break it into 2 blocks of 5x10. Use a weight where 13 or 14 reps are just possible but go for 10 reps with only 60 seconds rest between sets. The last set of each block should be close to failure or to failure.

Other sets and reps sames can be used like 6 sets of 10, 8 sets of 6, 10 sets of 5 etc. Just break it evenly into 2 blocks resting a few minutes between each block.

Ascending drop sets

So instead of dropping the weight down from the main weight like traditional drop sets. Here you increase the weight while taking very short rest periods with the reps decreasing working up to your main weight. A bit like pyramiding the weight up but more intense due to the short rest periods

Set 1 12 reps - 50% of target weight
Set 2 10 reps - 70% of target weight
Set 3 8 reps - 90% of target weight
Set 4 6 reps to failure or near it - target weight

Very little rest between sets, just enough time to add weight then go straight into the next set. The last set should be close to failure or to failure. Best used on secondary movements.

Rmj11

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Re: Methods
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2024, 01:22:40 AM »
I'd like to hear from guys who use fast volume with minimal rest between sets. Guys that do something like 5 x 12, 6 x 10, or 4 x 10 for an exercise with 45 to 30 seconds or less between sets trying to get the burn.  Many successful guys trained like that.

I have a lot of questions. Does it bother you that you are using light weights seeking the burn instead of training like the  guys pushing heavy weights for  long rests in between sets?  Maybe it's my ego but I have a problem grabbing a light weight even though it's hard as hell to train with a fast paced workout using volume.

Any thoughts?

Best way to train for most especially if natty. Lot less risk of injuries, improved muscular endurance and conditioning, improved cardiovascular fitness (not much need for boring cardio) keeps you a lot leaner too.

You can do any set rep combination you like such as 4x10, 3x8, 6x12 etc. You can even do 5x5 with short rest periods too. In fact that's what Gironda recommended. Most guys do 5x5 but with heavy weights which for most results in injuries, sore joints, hign cns fatigue, not much muscle mass built if any so instead they end up with that bulky fat look. That's not bodybuilding.

5x5 can be done with short rest periods, anywhere from 30 to 60 seconds maybe 90 seconds at the most using moderate weights. You take a weight where 10 to 12 reps are possible but stop at 5 reps, rest briefly for 30, 60 or 90 seconds then go again. The first set acts as a warm up the last set should be a challenge. Once 5 reps are achievable on the last set, either decrease the rest time between the sets, so if doing 90 seconds cut down to 60 seconds, or increase the weight.

Doing 5x5 this way is is not so hard on the cns and you could do any exercise in this way.

For instance

Bench press
Incline press
Flys
Dips
Pullovers

All done for 5x5 so that's 25 sets with a total of 125 reps. Perfectly doable.

oldtimer1

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Re: Methods
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2024, 03:40:55 PM »
Best way to train for most especially if natty. Lot less risk of injuries, improved muscular endurance and conditioning, improved cardiovascular fitness (not much need for boring cardio) keeps you a lot leaner too.

You can do any set rep combination you like such as 4x10, 3x8, 6x12 etc. You can even do 5x5 with short rest periods too. In fact that's what Gironda recommended. Most guys do 5x5 but with heavy weights which for most results in injuries, sore joints, hign cns fatigue, not much muscle mass built if any so instead they end up with that bulky fat look. That's not bodybuilding.

5x5 can be done with short rest periods, anywhere from 30 to 60 seconds maybe 90 seconds at the most using moderate weights. You take a weight where 10 to 12 reps are possible but stop at 5 reps, rest briefly for 30, 60 or 90 seconds then go again. The first set acts as a warm up the last set should be a challenge. Once 5 reps are achievable on the last set, either decrease the rest time between the sets, so if doing 90 seconds cut down to 60 seconds, or increase the weight.

Doing 5x5 this way is is not so hard on the cns and you could do any exercise in this way.

For instance

Bench press
Incline press
Flys
Dips
Pullovers

All done for 5x5 so that's 25 sets with a total of 125 reps. Perfectly doable.

I do see your point.  The majority of successful bodybuilders do use volume.  Low sets to failure works but it's a different protocol of training.  Your point of high intensity doesn't work is just wrong. What you are right about is the attributes about high set training. 

Grape Ape

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Re: Methods
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2024, 07:02:50 AM »
Current method is this:

Mon:  Coan DL program - has RDLs, RH, Rows, Shrugs
Tues: Run
Wed: DB chest presses, CGBP, a few curls, some laterals
Thurs: Off, mobility
Fri: Box squats, sled pushes, extensions
Sat: Ruck on a mountain near me
Sun: Off

That is more or less it.

I am not fitting in mobility enough, not even close.  Also don't get really any shoulder work, which I probably should.
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IroNat

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Re: Methods
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2024, 08:31:10 AM »
Current method is this:

Mon:  Coan DL program - has RDLs, RH, Rows, Shrugs
Tues: Run
Wed: DB chest presses, CGBP, a few curls, some laterals
Thurs: Off, mobility
Fri: Box squats, sled pushes, extensions
Sat: Ruck on a mountain near me
Sun: Off

That is more or less it.

I am not fitting in mobility enough, not even close.  Also don't get really any shoulder work, which I probably should.

You do shoulder work on Wednesday.

Grape Ape

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Re: Methods
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2024, 09:42:49 AM »
You do shoulder work on Wednesday.

That is how I view it as well, but I mean a little direct stuff.  My mobility is shit, and I should add some landmine stuff, sledgehammer shit, etc.
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oldtimer1

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Re: Methods
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2024, 11:14:51 AM »
That is how I view it as well, but I mean a little direct stuff.  My mobility is shit, and I should add some landmine stuff, sledgehammer shit, etc.

Clarence Bass calls it the Ownership Principal. I think he got it from another source.  What he means by that is everyone has to design a workout program that works for them. I can admire a distance runner's training as much as bodybuilder's training.  Everyone does what works for them.  Some guys think that another should train like they do which is wrong. 

Personally I'm on a running kick lately. Two weeks ago I pulled my hamstring doing 8 x 200 meters.  On the sixth one if my memory serves me I felt it.  Damn, I hate set backs.  Today I ran 5 miles and no I didn't set the world on fire with the pace but the pain was tolerable. Lately I have been looking into guys that lift and run on youtube. They call it hybrid training.  I get it. If you want to stink at both then train for both and you will be the master of nothing.

Grape Ape

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Re: Methods
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2024, 02:30:44 PM »
Clarence Bass calls it the Ownership Principal. I think he got it from another source.  What he means by that is everyone has to design a workout program that works for them. I can admire a distance runner's training as much as bodybuilder's training.  Everyone does what works for them.  Some guys think that another should train like they do which is wrong. 

Personally I'm on a running kick lately. Two weeks ago I pulled my hamstring doing 8 x 200 meters.  On the sixth one if my memory serves me I felt it.  Damn, I hate set backs.  Today I ran 5 miles and no I didn't set the world on fire with the pace but the pain was tolerable. Lately I have been looking into guys that lift and run on youtube. They call it hybrid training.  I get it. If you want to stink at both then train for both and you will be the master of nothing.

Nah, you can find a balance and it's probably healthier.

If I can pull 400, and run 10 miles, I'm in good shape.

Would I be better off with a 500lb DL, and not be able to run well?  I don't think so.

My only caveat, for me, is I may, MAY, want to dedicated 3 month to training for aesthetics - just add some hypertrophy training, and tightening up a tad.  My issue is, as soon as a lighter lift feels heavier, I go eat lol
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Rmj11

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Re: Methods
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2024, 06:27:35 AM »
I do see your point.  The majority of successful bodybuilders do use volume.  Low sets to failure works but it's a different protocol of training.  Your point of high intensity doesn't work is just wrong. What you are right about is the attributes about high set training.

Nope. Low volume hit does not work. There has never been a successful bodybuilder who has used that method exclusively and built a great physique. Never.

Rmj11

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Re: Methods
« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2024, 06:33:19 AM »
Rest pause and drop sets are used for volume too.

Example

Set 1 8 to 12 reps with main weight
Rest 20 to 30 secs
Set 2 rest pause as many reps as possible
Rest 20 to 30 secs
Set 3 rest pause same
Rest 20 to 30 secs
Set 4 drop weight by 20% do as many reps as possible
Rest 20 to 30 secs
Set 5 drop weight by another 20% and repeat

All sets taken to near failure, not all out. Try doing this for 3 to 4 exercises a bodypart. Harder than HIT guaranteed. Volume.