How do you NOT go to failure?

[dj181]

Im confused..

From next week Im going to try NOT going to failure.

How many weeks until you "feel" a difference?

I'm curious mon amie, how do you normally train? Do you follow any particular training protocol? In my opinion, Max-OT is nearly spot on

[wes]

I have been training for many years.  This is my take on things. I have been heavily influenced by Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer. I have trained for to many years to count to failure for low sets. I wish I would have used some volume during that time. I think all new trainers should always train to failure.

 The problem with failure is that it leads to burn out then there is a need to take off from training. If you have 5 years under your belt how much stronger can you get? Intensity demands adding weight, reps or decreasing the length of time it took to complete your workout. 

It seems HIT to failure guys follow the same pattern. They start training 3 days a week with say 12 exercises to failure of 1 or 2 work sets.  They burn out and reach a strength plateau.  Then they believe their strength have over run their recovery so they go down to twice a week.  This works for awhile then complete staleness and a need to take a break due to exhaustion.  After a break they read they should go down to one workout every 5 to 6 days.  This works for awhile.  Then they feel again they can't recover from 12 exercises and they go down to 6 then 4.  Soon they are working out once a week for 20 minutes and declare the reached their genetic limit. Bull shit.

I believe in training to failure for limited periods like Yates does.  You can't train like that all the time.  Imagine if a track coach said every training day you are running a mile to exhaustion trying to beat your time?  You would improve quickly at first but just as quickly you will start to burn out and your times would go down hill.

I believe the majority of your training should be to modified failure.  This is when you do volume with the last set approaching failure. So if you are doing 5 sets of ten reps for barbell curls it might look like this.  First set you do 10 reps but you know you could get more. Set two and three is the same.  You are working hard but not to the ragged edge. Set 4 you get 10 but would'nt have gotten 12. Set 5 you reach failure at 8.  When you can get 5 x 10 reps with that weight you can increase. Also the rests between sets are quick.  You're pacing yourself.  With 2 x 10 hit type approach you take as much time as you need between sets so you can attack that second set. With the volume approach you are trying to limit the rest between sets.

Does any athlete from Olympic lifter, Power lifter or even distance runner go to failure every training day?  Why do we think that's the way a bodybuilder should train?

We have a winner!!


Good post .

[Meso_z]

I'm curious mon amie, how do you normally train? Do you follow any particular training protocol? In my opinion, Max-OT is nearly spot on

I dont have any standar training protocol..I just train. lol

I would say that I do volume..close to 20 sets for bigger bparts. Going to failure almost in every last set of each exercise I do, I dont know

if its a good or bad thing though, thats why im interested in trying NOT to go to failure..

[local hero]

i still cant get my head around not going to failure, its like fucking your lass then not cumming......

can one of you post up a non failure routine, with warm ups and weights used?  not a full weeks worth just a sample chest or leg etc

[jpm101]

People are over thinking going to total failure way too much.  A non failure routine, warmups, weight used?......you got to be kidding. And some even confusing it's use with the progressive overload protocol. No wonder people train year in, year out without making any noticeable gains in size or strength.

Wishing the best of luck to the dazed and confused who can't seem to understand a simple basic element in training.  Again, Good Luck.

[dj181]

And some even confusing it's use with the progressive overload protocol.

Can you please explain what you mean here with this statement? I'm not hating on ya here, I'm just curious as to what you mean exactly. ALL sound training programs are based upon the concept of progressive overload, even GVT training applies this principle.

[local hero]

 not going to failure is totaly alien, i dont know anyone at all who trains this way, not a single person

they have all got bigger over the years too strangely enough!, im talking brit champs, brit pros, normal gym rats etc etc

[dj181]

Allright, I have a confession to make, I did try GVT but I didn't really give it a fair run, since I chucked it after only a few weeks into it. I'm thinking about just trying it on one bodypart (namely back) with dumbell rows. The concept behind it is to perform 10 sets of 10 reps with 60 to 90 sec rest btw sets, and to increase the training load once 10 sets of 10 reps have been completed with the same weight. Actually this could be an interesting experiment since I'll try and stick with GVT on back, while using Blakely's 4*6 on arms and delts...

[Meso_z]

How about training by feel? 

[Yev33]

With all due respect to jpm101.
I have been training to failure since I started eight years ago.  
Bodyweight went from 133 to 195-200 at 5'9"
Bench went from 135-315
Squat went from 135 to 335 for four (last saturday's workout, all the way down OLY style full squat)
Deadlift went from 225 to 435 for four
Overhead press from 85 to 195
pull ups went from bw for 15 to bw for 23-25 despite being more than 60 pounds heavier ( rarely do bw pullups nowadays, usually add at least one 45lb plate)
And all of this progress was done using only a brutal stack of whey protein and creatine as well as lots of regular food.
Not saying that not going to failure doesnt work, but for me and others that I have known and trained with, going to failure with lower volume has produced the most gains.

[jpm101]

Great progress Yev33. But maybe you could have had all those gains (and perhaps more) in 4 years or less. Just a thought, not applying anything negative or that I know better than anyone else.  I guess we never know until we all try different methods when working out, what our true potential might be. Good Luck.

[tbombz]

everything works at first. i lost ~100 lbs of fat and put on ~40 lbs of muscle during a one and a half year period when i first started training. failure and beyond on every set. im talking HIGH intensity training. 7 days a week, even when on holiday, birthday, sickday, whatever.  kept training that way up untill last year, tho i started taking more rest days. the only time i gained any muscle during the next 4 years of training was when i started using steroids, and after a few months gains platued again and even on steroids i didnt gain any noticeable muscle after that poiint.   last year i changed up my training and now i am gaining a  two or three pounds each and  every month, and using lower doses too.



jpm, i kno why u kept this info to yourself all these years now. 

[tbombz]

How about training by feel? 

thats what you do. make sure the muscle always feels good. dont hurt it. make love to it. squeeze it, flex it, pump it, lift heavy shit... but dont let it get achy or burning, dont go till it hurts, stay away from failure, and rest ALOT in between sets. take it easy but work hard.

[nodeal]

I really can't believe that some of you advocate NOT striving to achieve positive failure during your sets -- even going as far as to say that better results can be obtained through a lower intensity/higher volume training! Shame, shame.

Please stop spewing such utter nonsense.

Maybe some of you have become cozy in your little routines of 1-2 reps short of the burn, but working through the pain and getting out those last reps are what separates champs from chumps. SHAME.

You don't risk overworking the muscle by going to positive failure! You operate by feel, adjusting rep range, rest time between sets, rest time between workouts, exercises, number of sets, etc, so that your muscles may be worked to their optimum point of exhaustion. No matter what, though, you ALWAYS strive for positive failure on your sets. No other method of bodybuilding is more efficient, more effective, or more SATISFYING than that of the methods which employ high intensity principles and utilize positive failure as the primary goal of any set.

And I employ these high intensity principles to cardio as well! I don't care if I'm sprinting a mile or running for distance, I go till I cannot go any longer! I rode my bike 125 miles from Queens, NYC to Montauk, LI -- would I have made it if I wanted to keep it a few pedals short of failure? Fuck no.

And shit, I employ high intensity principles to my education as well! When I study, I go all out. If I'm going to set aside time to open up a school book, why half ass it and keep it 1-2 chapters short of "failure"? When it comes to achieving ANYTHING, giving it your all is the way to go!

Of course appropriate numbers of sets and adequate rest for worked muscle groups are the key to any successful routine that incorporates failure (or any type of bodybuilding routine for that matter), but to say it's better to NOT go to positive failure? -- ABSURD.

The next time you guys are in the gym doing your barbell curls in the squat rack, please consider banging out those extra couple of reps instead of surrendering and putting the bar down.

[jpm101]

NoDeal: Suggest that you go over to Google Maps and get directions, because your going all over the place with the apples & oranges fuzzy logic.

Perhaps doing a little research into the biochemical and CNS reactions, and counter reactions, to stress and adapting/recovery can open a new route of discovery for you. The shame would be for you not to do this.

As stated before (many times in other threads), I'm not preaching any one method to training. If you wish to do the failure thing and have utter faith in it, than fine and good for you. Spewing, good or bad, may be in the eye of the beholder. In this case, the site reader. Good Luck

Side Bar:  The first time I heard  the word "shame" was in the first grade at missionary school. Didn't think adults used that word much any more and with such furver.

[tbombz]

keep telling yourself that going to "failure" means you work hard...



heres a hint....   reaching true failure is impossible...  so by ur logic you have never worked out hard a day in your life..


pussy

 

[local hero]

so what is harder to do,,, force your self to truly finish a set, or stop 3 or so reps short?

could ask a 6yr old child to answer that one!

no ones arguing that there different ways of doing things, but you and jpm are comming over very smug

[Meso_z]

I tried not going to failure in my leg workout last saturday, Im sore as hell. Dont know though if its due to that (not going to failure).

[dj181]

I tried not going to failure in my leg workout last saturday, Im sore as hell. Dont know though if its due to that (not going to failure).

Did you do any new exercises during this workout? If oui, then it's most likely because of the new exercise. FYI, soreness IS NOT an indication that growth stimulation has occured, same thing goes for "the pump"

[dj181]

Ok, I've decided to try and show what PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD can do, so here are my current bicep pics and my arm is measuring in at 14.75 inches or 37.5 cm, and I am a lifetime natural trainer. So therorectically, if I can progressively overload my arms with greater and greater training weights, they will get bigger and bigger, and that's exactly what this little mini experiment of mine will attempt to show.

Here are my current arm lifts:

1. DB Overhead Tricep Extensions: 65 pounds for 8, 7, and 6 reps for 3 work sets

2. DB Concentration Curls: 40 pounds for 7, 6, and 5 reps for 3 work sets

P.S. Sorry for the upside down photos, but the camera on my phone is fucked up, and I haven't got it fixed yet

[Meso_z]

Did you do any new exercises during this workout? If oui, then it's most likely because of the new exercise. FYI, soreness IS NOT an indication that growth stimulation has occured, same thing goes for "the pump"

No...same thing I always do...just 1-2 reps away from "failure"..

[jpm101]

Hint to dj181:  Drop the DB arm work and try close grip BP's or dips, with the elbows close to the sides in each exercise. BB cheat curls (just enough to get the bar moving upwards) for the biceps, a mass builder. Stay away from the extension movements for awhile, if wanting increased  impressive size. But if you still insist on going to failure than please forget any of these offered suggestions.

Don't know how many years of training you have, or your height or weight, but I would judge that most guy's who come on this site have at lease  a 16" cold arm after a year or so of serious training. Or should have. So considering you are more of a project under construction , I can only offer these suggestions in good faith. I truly do wish you good luck in your goals.

[dj181]

Hint to dj181:  Drop the DB arm work and try close grip BP's or dips, with the elbows close to the sides in each exercise. BB cheat curls (just enough to get the bar moving upwards) for the biceps, a mass builder. Stay away from the extension movements for awhile, if wanting increased  impressive size. But if you still insist on going to failure than please forget any of these offered suggestions.

Don't know how many years of training you have, or your height or weight, but I would judge that most guy's who come on this site have at lease  a 16" cold arm after a year or so of serious training. Or should have. So considering you are more of a project under construction , I can only offer these suggestions in good faith. I truly do wish you good luck in your goals.

Thanks for the input man, but my current training goals are rather unusual to say the least... I'm basically just trying to "spot gain" on my Arms and Delts, and particularly my bis, as they are by far the worst of the three (delts, tris, bis). So the dips and close-grips don't really allow me to follow my plan, as they involve the pecs too much. Here is a Tri and Delt shot that was taken on the same day. Once again sorry for the upside down pic.

[dj181]

And for my bis, a friend of mine suggested that I try a pre-exhust cycle of DB Supination curls supersetted with DB rows, so I think that I'm gonna give that bi routine a run. Basically performing 2 cycles of it per bi training session.

[tbombz]

so what is harder to do,,, force your self to truly finish a set, or stop 3 or so reps short?

could ask a 6yr old child to answer that one!

no ones arguing that there different ways of doing things, but you and jpm are comming over very smug

is the point of training to "work hard" or to stimulate growth?

going to failure only damages the muscle. you dont want to do that. you just want to work the muscle.

I tried not going to failure in my leg workout last saturday, Im sore as hell. Dont know though if its due to that (not going to failure).

...    now that your staying away from failure you should be able to do a hell of a lot more sets in your workouts.