A test of Getbigger's knowledge of the resistance curve: Single dumbbell lateral

[pellius]

There is nothing vague or subjective about intensity at all.  Your definition of intensity is "hard" so that's why it seems vague and subjective.  There is an actual definition of intensity in sports science.

Please state this definition and identify the source.

And the reason I believe it's subjective even using your definition of the one-rep max is how do we know that person is really generating his maximal effort doing his one-rep max? He may think he is, but if you offer him a million dollars if he did five pounds more or his crush is watching him, he might find that he really has some extra motivation and get that extra five pounds to his max. It is very common for someone to find that he is "stronger" when training with a partner or with a coach yelling at him than when training alone.

But, again, however you define it, the bottom line is, in bodybuilding, nobody is going to reach his full potential doing just one-rep max as it just doesn't tax the muscle enough.

[Humble Narcissist]

Please state this definition and identify the source.

And the reason I believe it's subjective even using your definition of the one-rep max is how do we know that person is really generating his maximal effort doing his one-rep max? He may think he is, but if you offer him a million dollars if he did five pounds more or his crush is watching him, he might find that he really has some extra motivation and get that extra five pounds to his max. It is very common for someone to find that he is "stronger" when training with a partner or with a coach yelling at him than when training alone.

But, again, however you define it, the bottom line is, in bodybuilding, nobody is going to reach his full potential doing just one-rep max as it just doesn't tax the muscle enough.

So a powerlifter setting world records could do 5lbs more if people are yelling at him?

Here is the actual definition clearly spelled out for you:
https://emerging-athlete.com/intensity-in-weight-training-1rm-determination/

[pellius]

So a powerlifter setting world records could do 5lbs more if people are yelling at him?

When posing a situation that is very common does not mean it happens all the time and in every case. And it is not unusual for a competitive athlete to perform better during competition as more is on the line. And there is the concept of the "home court advantage". Even MMA fighters say how they get more motivated when the crowd is cheering for them. An outside stimulus has proven time and again, not all the time every time, to improve athletic and physical performance.

Now, are you able to answer the question of what exactly the sports science definition of intensity is and what is the source?

[Humble Narcissist]

When posing a situation that is very common does not mean it happens all the time and in every case. And it is not unusual for a competitive athlete to perform better during competition as more is on the line. And there is the concept of the "home court advantage". Even MMA fighters say how they get more motivated when the crowd is cheering for them. An outside stimulus has proven time and again, not all the time every time, to improve athletic and physical performance.

Now, are you able to answer the question of what exactly the sports science definition of intensity is and what is the source?

Check my modified post above yours.

[wes]

Yes, that is what I was talking about when referring to the concept of "inroads" and how "deep" you work the given muscle. When you do your one-rep max of, say, 405 on the bench, you are performing with maximum momentary exertion, i.e., you can't generate any more force by definition. But no one believes that you have worked the muscle to exhaustion. You have a lot left in you. You can easily push, say 375 lbs, and after that, 355 lbs, and so on with each addition rep "digging deeper" into the targeted muscle or muscle group. As I mentioned previously when you look at Milos' training protocol with his forced reps and drop sets, he pushes himself and his clients to a state where any additional muscular contraction is impossible. There was a video where he was straining with 5 lb laterals and if you just walked into the gym seeing that you would be puzzled. But you missed the part where he started at 50 lbs and work his way down with no rest.

There was a video where Milos was training a client doing legs. It was almost painful to watch. The amount of effort, and, yes, the intensity he squeezed out of his client was almost painful to watch. No disrespect to, IMO, the best Mr. Olympia covering every era, Dorian Yates, who was known for his intensity, but this session was much more intense than Dorian's leg day in his Blood and Guts video. When Dorian says that he KNEW, he worked harder than anybody else because it is impossible for a person to work harder to change his mind if he saw this poor soul being tortured by Milos.

The way Milos trained is almost how I would train generally and for most of the time.

I would do Tri-Sets,Giant-Sets,Super-Sets and also include drop sets or running the rack sets on DB Laterals or DB Curls,................very hard way to train and the muscle get fully exhausted if you do it correctly moving from exercise to exercise with no rest until the last exercise is completed.

[pellius]

Check my modified post above yours.

This is not a scientific study or definition. It is an article expressing an opinion by someone who only identifies himself as "Claas", who, going by his own description, has no formal background, education, or qualifications in kinesiology and human physiology. This is all we know about his background.

Hi, I'm Claas. I am a passionate fitness and performance lover. For several years I have been training and developing my personality with dedication, ambition, and commitment to pursue my goals...

I believe the key to a happy life, to pursue your goals, overcome challenges and convert your dreams to reality, is based upon mastering our four underlying four pillars; nutrition, fitness, productivity, and mindfulness.

This is all very nice and kumbaya-ish but hardly an authoritative piece.

Nonetheless, people can define intensity any way they want. If you want to believe that I don't have a problem with it. I just don't believe it is relevant to one trying to develop muscle hypertrophy. I believe that my definition of training the muscle to exhaustion is far more effective than just measuring one's ability to generate force. In fact, you can be in a state where you are generating very little force yet have the targeted muscle performing to its absolute limit.

[pellius]

The way Milos trained is almost how I would train generally and for most of the time.

I would do Tri-Sets,Giant-Sets,Super-Sets and also include drop sets or running the rack sets on DB Laterals or DB Curls,................very hard way to train and the muscle get fully exhausted if you do it correctly moving from exercise to exercise with no rest until the last exercise is completed.

Not only your muscles but your cardiovascular system as well. Arthur Jones use to say that you should combine training anaerobcally and aerobically simultaneously. Your resistance training set is the anaerobic portion and by going from one set to another without rest would be the aerobic portion.
Even if I can't go to another set immediately after I walk back and forth until I'm ready again. The idea is to keep moving. No need for a separate cardio session. You look at most oafs in the gym that brag about training for two hours everyday. They do one half-ass set that takes them about 20 seconds to complete, if that, and then they sit there for two to three minutes on their phone texting or on social media. 85% or more of their workout consist of doing nothing.

[wes]

I always went by the Vince Gironda definition of intensity:

"Doing the most work in the shortest amount of time".

If you and I were of equal strength, and both did the same exact workout, using the same exact weight on each exercise and the same reps a well, but it took you 2 hours to complete and it only took me 45 minutes,  than I trained harder than you because my workout was far more intense.

[wes]

Not only your muscles but your cardiovascular system as well. Arthur Jones use to say that you should combine training anaerobcally and aerobically simultaneously. Your resistance training set is the anaerobic portion and by going from one set to another without rest would be the aerobic portion.
Even if I can't go to another set immediately after I walk back and forth until I'm ready again. The idea is to keep moving. No need for a separate cardio session. You look at most oafs in the gym that brag about training for two hours everyday. They do one half-ass set that takes them about 20 seconds to complete, if that, and then they sit there for two to three minutes on their phone texting or on social media. 85% or more of their workout consist of doing nothing.

I totally agree 100%.

[pellius]

I always went by the Vince Gironda definition of intensity:

"Doing the most work in the shortest amount of time".

If you and I were of equal strength, and both did the same exact workout, using the same exact weight on each exercise and the same reps a well, but it took you 2 hours to complete and it only took me 45 minutes,  than I trained harder than you because my workout was far more intense.

Spot on again! I remember high school they had set up a Nautilus facility in a Quonset hut. I was given a prescribed workout and when we were done we asked each other how long did each of us train. I said I was at it for 55 minutes. Another said his workout took 22 minutes. Being used to the notion that you can't get a good workout unless you trained for an hour and a half to two hours I scoff and said that it must not have been much of a workout when you couldn't even go for a half an hour. Once it was explained to me how he did the same exercises and the same volume I did, and I watched him train, it became clear why he was much more developed than I was and in much better condition. When I tried to go at his pace I lasted about ten minutes so that I could rest and get my breath back.

[wes]

Spot on again! I remember high school they had set up a Nautilus facility in a Quonset hut. I was given a prescribed workout and when we were done we asked each other how long did each of us train. I said I was at it for 55 minutes. Another said his workout took 22 minutes. Being used to the notion that you can't get a good workout unless you trained for an hour and a half to two hours I scoff and said that it must not have been much of a workout when you couldn't even go for a half an hour. Once it was explained to me how he did the same exercises and the same volume I did, and I watched him train, it became clear why he was much more developed than I was and in much better condition. When I tried to go at his pace I lasted about ten minutes so that I could rest and get my breath back.

When I was a kid just starting out, Dave Mastorakis was into one set each non-stop. probably because of Mentzer and Joe Mullins who just opened up the first and last Nautilus gym in the area.

Daves training partner was a guy named Ken Knapp.......real nice guy who wrote a workout out for me and my buddy Harris to follow, we were excited because Ken was huge and most likely knew the key to building your body.

When we looked at what he had written out for us, we both looked at each other and I threw the paper away.

It consisted of 8-10 excercies done to failure performing one set on each movement.

We thought he was just fucking around with us or something because what we were doing on a day to day basis 6 days a week was following Olivas or Arnolds workout rep for rep,set for set for 2-3 hours a day. 

[pellius]

I always went by the Vince Gironda definition of intensity:

"Doing the most work in the shortest amount of time".

If you and I were of equal strength, and both did the same exact workout, using the same exact weight on each exercise and the same reps a well, but it took you 2 hours to complete and it only took me 45 minutes,  than I trained harder than you because my workout was far more intense.

The biggest obstacle I have to overcome in working out is not motivation, fatigue, pain... by other people in the gym. People just sitting on equipment doing nothing and when you ask to work in they say, "I'm just about to do my set. I only have a few more left. It's not like the old day when guys welcomed you to work in, would egg you on and push you, and be there for forced reps and other intensity variables as well as for safety.

I always plan my workout and what I'm going to do. The exercises and equipment I'll be using. But I can't remember the last time I have ever completed a workout as planned. There is always someone in my way that is hogging a piece of equipment I want to us and I have to move on to something else. If doing pre-exhaust I use the "towel" method, where I put my extra towel I have just for this purpose which is to lay onto the equipment I'll be using as a way to reserve it. That is one thing people seem to obey. They won't touch a piece of equipment if they see someone's towel over it.

 

[pellius]

When I was a kid just starting out, Dave Mastorakis was into one set each non-stop. probably because of Mentzer and Joe Mullins who just opened up the first and last Nautilus gym in the area.

Daves training partner was a guy named Ken Knapp.......real nice guy who wrote a workout out for me and my buddy Harris to follow, we were excited because Ken was huge and most likely knew the key to building your body.

When we looked at what he had written out for us, we both looked at each other and I threw the paper away.

It consisted of 8-10 excercies done to failure performing one set on each movement.

We thought he was just fucking around with us or something because what we were doing on a day to day basis 6 days a week was following Olivas or Arnolds workout rep for rep,set for set for 2-3 hours a day. 

Yup, just like me. Two hours six days a week. This while working a full-time job and having to do chores like laundry and grocery shopping on your one day off you had no life.

[wes]

The biggest obstacle I have to overcome in working out is not motivation, fatigue, pain... by other people in the gym. People just sitting on equipment doing nothing and when you ask to work in they say, "I'm just about to do my set. I only have a few more left. It's not like the old day when guys welcomed you to work in, would egg you on and push you, and be there for forced reps and other intensity variables as well as for safety.

I always plan my workout and what I'm going to do. The exercises and equipment I'll be using. But I can't remember the last time I have ever completed a workout as planned. There is always someone in my way that is hogging a piece of equipment I want to us and I have to move on to something else. If doing pre-exhaust I use the "towel" method, where I put my extra towel I have just for this purpose which is to lay onto the equipment I'll be using as a way to reserve it. That is one thing people seem to obey. They won't touch a piece of equipment if they see someone's towel over it.

 

I call those people deadwood.

I hate them but we need their money to keep the gym open.

One day I was doing Delts,a tri-set of machine presses, seated machine laterals, and I had 2 dumbells near me for bent-over laterals.

Well some old fuck jumps on the seated lateral machine and just sits there after doing a sloppy set with one plate of the weight stack.

I did my presses and I asked him if I could jump in and it would only take me a minute......something he should have asked me as the fucker saw me using both machines before he was.

Anyway, he got so pissed off at my question which I asked very politely, that he threw his fucking clipboard across the gym and then stormed out himself. 

I felt like fucking him up but I had changed my ways.......luckily for him.  LOL 

[wes]

Yup, just like me. Two hours six days a week. This while working a full-time job and having to do chores like laundry and grocery shopping on your one day off you had no life.

I hear ya`....if we only knew then,what we know now.

[Humble Narcissist]

This is not a scientific study or definition. It is an article expressing an opinion by someone who only identifies himself as "Claas", who, going by his own description, has no formal background, education, or qualifications in kinesiology and human physiology. This is all we know about his background.

Hi, I'm Claas. I am a passionate fitness and performance lover. For several years I have been training and developing my personality with dedication, ambition, and commitment to pursue my goals...

I believe the key to a happy life, to pursue your goals, overcome challenges and convert your dreams to reality, is based upon mastering our four underlying four pillars; nutrition, fitness, productivity, and mindfulness.

This is all very nice and kumbaya-ish but hardly an authoritative piece.

Nonetheless, people can define intensity any way they want. If you want to believe that I don't have a problem with it. I just don't believe it is relevant to one trying to develop muscle hypertrophy. I believe that my definition of training the muscle to exhaustion is far more effective than just measuring one's ability to generate force. In fact, you can be in a state where you are generating very little force yet have the targeted muscle performing to its absolute limit.

I have actually posted 2 links to prove intensity has a specific meaning and you don't accept that because you believe in a pseudo scientist Arthur Jones.  That is fine.

[pellius]

I call those people deadwood.

I hate them but we need their money to keep the gym open.

One day I was doing Delts,a tri-set of machine presses, seated machine laterals, and I had 2 dumbells near me for bent-over laterals.

Well some old fuck jumps on the seated lateral machine and just sits there after doing a sloppy set with one plate of the weight stack.

I did my presses and I asked him if I could jump in and it would only take me a minute......something he should have asked me as the fucker saw me using both machines before he was.

Anyway, he got so pissed off at my question which I asked very politely, that he threw his fucking clipboard across the gym and then stormed out himself. 

I felt like fucking him up but I had changed my ways.......luckily for him.  LOL 

That's how they are nowadays. They rather sit on the equipment texting their boyfriend rather than let you use the equipment the way it was meant to be used.

I recently stumble across this tiny gym (by today's standard) owned and operated by Chris Faildo. There's, of course, free weights, but all the machines except the leg extension and leg curl are plate loaded, so you have to actually lift the plates on and off the machine. Also, this does kind of bother me, he doesn't have enough plates to go around so you're really getting a self-imposed Farmers Walk workout during your session lugging these big plates back and forth. Also, the majority of the plates are in kilograms. They don't have a "cardio room", well they do sort of. And just a bunch of locker of to the side. No shower area so I don't have to look at these saggy old men who seem to just love to walk around naked in the locker room.

When I first saw the gym I thought, "Hmm, no cardio room, all plate loaded machines -- that pretty much eliminates the whole soccer mom crowd." I think they are the worse group because at least with men they usually will begrudgingly let you in because they don't want a confrontation and my reputation for defending Big Macs with fists and feet is well known. But with women you can't win. And no locker room so no naked men to look at.

The 24 hours gym is 3 miles from my house but I drive to a gym 12 miles away that doesn't have nearly the space and equipment as 24 does but for me it's not just about physical conditioning, it's also the mental aspect where you are more at peace with your surroundings. I always leave 24 mad and frustrated because I couldn't train the way I want to and it takes too long. Too much waiting even though I set up alternatives. And I just hate to be around so many people. At Chris' gym, it's small and there's never seem to be more than 6-10 people there. It's usually around six. So with such a small group you quickly developed the camaraderie that is almost like you had back in our day. One guy even volunteered to spot me. I almost cried as I had a Kwai Chang Caine flashback of the days of old.

Look at this. To the average person this is nothing unusual. To me, it is something I have never seen in these big box gym. All the dumbells on the rack and in their proper place. Everyone put things back where they go it.

[pellius]

The locker and "Cardio room".

[pellius]

I have actually posted 2 links to prove intensity has a specific meaning and you don't accept that because you believe in a pseudo scientist Arthur Jones.  That is fine.

I would far more trust Arthur Jones, a genius who revolutionize resistant training equipment and principles, than "Claas" or some white coat that never lifted more than fork.

If you got two clones and one trained with just one-rep max and the other trained Arthur Jones style there would be no question who would be the better conditioned and more muscular athlete.

[Humble Narcissist]

I would far more trust Arthur Jones, a genius who revolutionize resistant training equipment and principles, than "Claas" or some white coat that never lifted more than fork.

If you got two clones and one trained with just one-rep max and the other trained Arthur Jones style there would be no question who would be the better conditioned and more muscular athlete.

You trust him more because he was a great con man.  Revolutionized resistant training principles?  How come no professional athlete trains like this?  There is no NFL or NHL team that trains like Jones advocated.  There is no Olympic strength coach or D1 college strength coach that trains their athletes like Jones said to train.  Why?

No one said training all 1 rep maxes was the best way to train.  You are confusing high intensity with the best way to train.  Intensity is one component of training.

[pellius]

You trust him more because he was a great con man.  Revolutionized resistant training principles?  How come no professional athlete trains like this?  There is no NFL or NHL team that trains like Jones advocated.  There is no Olympic strength coach or D1 college strength coach that trains their athletes like Jones said to train.  Why?

No one said training all 1 rep maxes was the best way to train.  You are confusing high intensity with the best way to train.  Intensity is one component of training.

LOL @ "con man" so clueless. All the equipment you see in the gyms today stem from his original design. They all try to get as close as possible to full range movement and variable resistance. Something that wasn't even a consideration before Jones. You are probably too young to remember how primitive the equipment was before Jones. The leg extension was just a barbell hanging over a bench. You got little to no resistance at the beginning of the movement and only got the full resistance when you locked out since free weights only provided a straight downward force whereas the joints work in a rotary fashion.

And how on earth do you know how professional athletes train? Remember Dorian Yates? Sure you can argue that they don't train in the exact fashion as he espoused 40 years ago but his principles of intensity, progression, and recuperation remain the same. Yates has stated many times how his training was based on Jones and Mentzer. He almost bragged about how he did just one work set per exercise and spent far less time in the gym than his competition. Back when I was a kid now one talked about rest and recovery. It was always more sets, more frequency. The idea of training a body part one day a week was unheard of. And the majority of NFL teams incorporated Nautilus machines in their gyms when they first came out because of Jones. Now they have variations and improvements on his design again trying to incorporate variable resistance to match a human's strength curve alone with full range motion.

And I'm not "confusing" anything. The best, or to be more precise, the optimal way to train is the whole point of all this.

You ignored the question of the two clones. Who would be more muscular and in better athletic condition? Let's see if you have the intellectual courage to address that hypothetical and the reasons for it. Are we having this discussion for ego or for greater knowledge?

[King Shizzo]

That's how they are nowadays. They rather sit on the equipment texting their boyfriend rather than let you use the equipment the way it was meant to be used.

I recently stumble across this tiny gym (by today's standard) owned and operated by Chris Faildo. There's, of course, free weights, but all the machines except the leg extension and leg curl are plate loaded, so you have to actually lift the plates on and off the machine. Also, this does kind of bother me, he doesn't have enough plates to go around so you're really getting a self-imposed Farmers Walk workout during your session lugging these big plates back and forth. Also, the majority of the plates are in kilograms. They don't have a "cardio room", well they do sort of. And just a bunch of locker of to the side. No shower area so I don't have to look at these saggy old men who seem to just love to walk around naked in the locker room.

When I first saw the gym I thought, "Hmm, no cardio room, all plate loaded machines -- that pretty much eliminates the whole soccer mom crowd." I think they are the worse group because at least with men they usually will begrudgingly let you in because they don't want a confrontation and my reputation for defending Big Macs with fists and feet is well known. But with women you can't win. And no locker room so no naked men to look at.

The 24 hours gym is 3 miles from my house but I drive to a gym 12 miles away that doesn't have nearly the space and equipment as 24 does but for me it's not just about physical conditioning, it's also the mental aspect where you are more at peace with your surroundings. I always leave 24 mad and frustrated because I couldn't train the way I want to and it takes too long. Too much waiting even though I set up alternatives. And I just hate to be around so many people. At Chris' gym, it's small and there's never seem to be more than 6-10 people there. It's usually around six. So with such a small group you quickly developed the camaraderie that is almost like you had back in our day. One guy even volunteered to spot me. I almost cried as I had a Kwai Chang Caine flashback of the days of old.

Look at this. To the average person this is nothing unusual. To me, it is something I have never seen in these big box gym. All the dumbells on the rack and in their proper place. Everyone put things back where they go it.

[Humble Narcissist]

LOL @ "con man" so clueless. All the equipment you see in the gyms today stem from his original design. They all try to get as close as possible to full range movement and variable resistance. Something that wasn't even a consideration before Jones. You are probably too young to remember how primitive the equipment was before Jones. The leg extension was just a barbell hanging over a bench. You got little to no resistance at the beginning of the movement and only got the full resistance when you locked out since free weights only provided a straight downward force whereas the joints work in a rotary fashion.

And how on earth do you know how professional athletes train? Remember Dorian Yates? Sure you can argue that they don't train in the exact fashion as he espoused 40 years ago but his principles of intensity, progression, and recuperation remain the same. Yates has stated many times how his training was based on Jones and Mentzer. He almost bragged about how he did just one work set per exercise and spent far less time in the gym than his competition. Back when I was a kid now one talked about rest and recovery. It was always more sets, more frequency. The idea of training a body part one day a week was unheard of. And the majority of NFL teams incorporated Nautilus machines in their gyms when they first came out because of Jones. Now they have variations and improvements on his design again trying to incorporate variable resistance to match a human's strength curve alone with full range motion.

And I'm not "confusing" anything. The best, or to be more precise, the optimal way to train is the whole point of all this.

You ignored the question of the two clones. Who would be more muscular and in better athletic condition? Let's see if you have the intellectual courage to address that hypothetical and the reasons for it. Are we having this discussion for ego or for greater knowledge?

I absolutely know how strength coaches train their athletes.  It's not a secret and it's nothing like Jones advocated.  Yates and Mentzer (the two poster boys for HIT) didn't train like Jones advocated either.

The clone who trained in Jones' system would be inferior to any well thought out training program.  Again, I never said a person should train all 1 rep maxes.  Where did you get that idea?  I said someone training all 1 rep maxes would be training more intensely.  You don't even understand the difference.  Intensity is one component of training.  A person can train with high volume and low intensity and still have a greater work load and will build more muscle.

Question: If you take a 5lb dumbbell and do over 100 reps until failure is that an intense set?

[IroNat]

Watching Pellius debate someone...

[pellius]

I absolutely know how strength coaches train their athletes.  It's not a secret and it's nothing like Jones advocated.  Yates and Mentzer (the two poster boys for HIT) didn't train like Jones advocated either.

The clone who trained in Jones' system would be inferior to any well thought out training program.  Again, I never said a person should train all 1 rep maxes.  Where did you get that idea?  I said someone training all 1 rep maxes would be training more intensely.  You don't even understand the difference.  Intensity is one component of training.  A person can train with high volume and low intensity and still have a greater work load and will build more muscle.

Question: If you take a 5lb dumbbell and do over 100 reps until failure is that an intense set?

I made it crystal clear that no one trains exactly like Jones, or anyone else for that matter. I made it crystal clear it's the principles that Jones advocated: intensity, frequency, variable resistance, full range movement... And not the exact program he advocated 40 years ago. It always cracks me up when people like you say Dorian and Mentzer didn't train exactly like Jones advocated when both had made it  crystal clear that their methods were based on Jones` training principles. Both wanted to separate themselves from what others were doing and constantly called attention to it. Along with other factors, the main ones they advocated was intensity and how much less time they spent in the gym than their competition.

And you know ABSOLUTELY how athletes are trained? How? Who are you? What makes you such an expert? And just because the majority does something doesn't automatically mean it's the right or best thing to do.
And of course, just as I predicted, you couldn't answer simple straight forward question and had to change the terms to "a well-thought out" program. You can't because you know, and I know, and everybody else knows what the answer is and you don't want to state it because it is the one I advocate. That is proof positive that you are motivated more by your ego than finding out the truth.

Now, you just ask me a simple straight forward question and I will answer in a simple and straight forward manner as befitting a man who is more concerned with the truth and not afraid of being proved wrong.

If a person does a 100 reps to failure with a five pound dumbbell, meaning that a 101th rep is impossible despite his best effort then yes,
I would consider that an intense set.