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Getbig Main Boards => General Topics => Topic started by: 240 is Back on October 27, 2006, 10:06:40 PM
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Does anyone here believe Bush when he said today ""This country doesn't torture, we're not going to torture. We will interrogate people we pick up off the battlefield to determine whether or not they've got information that will be helpful to protect the country."
So we definitely don't torture....
I'm guessing those Gitmo guys overheard, were lying? Those CIA agents who tried to get insurance to CYA should they get caught - lying? All the former detainees who detailed their being shipped to Syria for torture- lying?
I'm guessing we completely alienated the rest of the world, pissed on Geneva, and changed our constitution to legalize it... for no reason?
Anyone believe Bush on this?
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I am very right sided and I do think Bush is doing a good job in office. However, I also believe we use the tactics needed to ensure safety for this country. I don't believe there is a dungeonand people are being rackedor having bambooshoots shoved in their nailbeds or water torture. Sensory deprivation, truth serum, and other methods I'm sure are used and very well should be. No terrorist or insurgent is going to say, "Well, I guess you got me. What do you want to know?" Things don't work that way. The country is a safer place and we have stopped many terrorist attacks both here and abroad because of the methods and tactics put in place by the Bush admiistration.
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Ah, FUCK NO.... It's another example of Bush making his own reality. Only in Bush's world can you torture and not actually be torturing. There are countless examples of Bush's Double, even Triplespeak... Reality is often exactly the opposite from what Bush says.
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240, you've had another flare-up of dumbassitis.
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I am very right sided and I do think Bush is doing a good job in office. However, I also believe we use the tactics needed to ensure safety for this country. I don't believe there is a dungeonand people are being rackedor having bambooshoots shoved in their nailbeds or water torture. Sensory deprivation, truth serum, and other methods I'm sure are used and very well should be. No terrorist or insurgent is going to say, "Well, I guess you got me. What do you want to know?" Things don't work that way. The country is a safer place and we have stopped many terrorist attacks both here and abroad because of the methods and tactics put in place by the Bush admiistration.
So did Bush lie today? He said today that we don't use torture.
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240, you've had another flare-up of dumbassitis.
LOL@ attacking the messenger and not the message.
You won't answer the Q, because you're either confused by the conflicting white house statements/actions, or you're pisspants scared to say anything you don't get from fox news. Did he lie today?
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So did Bush lie today? He said today that we don't use torture.
Like I said, I do not believe that we are sawing off body parts or pulling people apart but I do believe we use other methods to get information. When he says the United States does nottorture this is what he is refering to. I'm sure people are not fed as well as they should be and that they are probaly kept awake for days in the dark. I do not know the verbatim defintion of torture so I can not say what is technically considered torture.
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LOL@ attacking the messenger and not the message.
You won't answer the Q, because you're either confused by the conflicting white house statements/actions, or you're pisspants scared to say anything you don't get from fox news. Did he lie today?
240, if I'm the scared one, how come I've never run to a mod to get a thread changed or pulled?
you have no idea of how the constitution works, or what torture is legally, or who is doing it. you can watch the news all day, but you'll never have decent sources b/c you've chosen to be a small-town boy . . . all you're getting is dim view.
Now I fully expect you to get all indignant and self-righteous . . . so go ahead and do it.
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ALG, you didn't answer :)
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Torture = the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
I do not believe that the United States inflicts EXCRUCIATING pain for any reason. By this definition, no Bush did not lie today.
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Waterboarding = excrutiating.
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Waterboarding is not considered torture because there is not permenant physical damage or organ failure. It's mentally very intense but not physically damaging.
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one more thing, 240 . . . i've never watche a whole hour of Fox News in my life.
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Waterboarding is not considered torture because there is not permenant physical damage or organ failure. It's mentally very intense but not physically damaging.
Yea ok there... Outside of the little bubble created by Bush's little midget Mexican tool, Alberto, the reality of it is: IT'S TORTURE... The guy who got his balls sliced and diced didn't have organ failure either... They just let him heal up again before cutting him open again... The guys who got slabs of flesh removed is probably ok after it healed... The rest of his flesh didn't fail... COME ON PAL... THINK ABOUT IT FOR TWO SECONDS HERE... Imagine what can be done without causing permanent damage. We called it torture when the Nazi's did it... but it's cool with you because Alberto crafted some clever bullshit... It's going to be considered torture by anyone with half a brain cell when the enemy gets one of our troops and starts slicing into his privates pal. Now get real...
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Waterboarding is not considered torture because there is not permenant physical damage or organ failure. It's mentally very intense but not physically damaging.
The Geneva convention considers waterboarding to be torture. The US signed this agreement and agreed to abide by these worldwide rules. Waterboarding is considered torture.
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On December 10, 1948, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly. Article 5 states "No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment".
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
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The UN is one thing.
But we have a getbig member who said:
Waterboarding is not considered torture because there is not permenant physical damage or organ failure. It's mentally very intense but not physically damaging.
I'm not sure who to believe here.
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The UN is one thing.
But we have a getbig member who said:
I'm not sure who to believe here.
In part it should be recognized that this getbig member is enabled by this mother fucker:
(http://www.imagedonkey.com/out.php?i=16501_albertogonzalestobecomeusattorneygeneralreports.jpg)
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On December 10, 1948, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly. Article 5 states "No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment".
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
That was in 1948. Times were different. We were fighting different wars. According to the UN, waterboarding is torture, that is correct. However that was a law written by a man. Just like Alberto wrote that it is not. I livein this country and I support this country. If this means that we have to make a terrorist sh#t his pants by thinking he is drowning then so be it. I'm not saying it's the most humane thing to do, I'm saying I don't care. This idea of partsof the world hating the US isnt something that happend in the last 6-7 years, its been bubbling up for decades. An insurgent that has used children as bombs and may know when an attack on our troops is going to happen should not have the same rights as a law abiding citizen who accidentally litters.
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That was in 1948. Times were different. We were fighting different wars. According to the UN, waterboarding is torture, that is correct. However that was a law written by a man. Just like Alberto wrote that it is not. I livein this country and I support this country. If this means that we have to make a terrorist sh#t his pants by thinking he is drowning then so be it. I'm not saying it's the most humane thing to do, I'm saying I don't care. This idea of partsof the world hating the US isnt something that happend in the last 6-7 years, its been bubbling up for decades. An insurgent that has used children as bombs and may know when an attack on our troops is going to happen should not have the same rights as a law abiding citizen who accidentally litters.
so are you changing your position that waterboarding is not torture?
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No. As I said, torture, as it is stated by the United States of America, is excrutiating pain causing permanent physical damage and/or organ failure. Thisdid not happen. If you are going to reference a document that was written 60 years ago instead of one that was written 4 then that is by all means, that is your choice. Things change all the time as trime goes on we, as society get smarter and rethink "facts". Pluto was a planet, Indigo was in the rainbow spectrum, and waterboarding was torture.
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No. As I said, torture, as it is stated by the United States of America, is excrutiating pain causing permanent physical damage and/or organ failure. Thisdid not happen. If you are going to reference a document that was written 60 years ago instead of one that was written 4 then that is by all means, that is your choice. Things change all the time as trime goes on we, as society get smarter and rethink "facts". Pluto was a planet, Indigo was in the rainbow spectrum, and waterboarding was torture.
This is classic, first we are debating whether or America tortures people now we are debating whether or not it is in fact torture. Pathetic.
Waterboarding is torture........... get over it.
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This is classic, first we are debating whether or America tortures people now we are debating whether or not it is in fact torture. Pathetic.
Waterboarding is torture........... get over it.
Good arguement, interesting points. What do you consider beheadings? Is a beheading an act of torture? No one complains that the terrorists and insurgents aren't obiding by the Geneva Convention.
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Puller, "no one complains"?
Do you watch the news? We're bombing the fuck outta them. They're being condemned worldwide. No one condones such atrocities, and they are summarily killed when captured. Of course no one condones such terrible things.
But to say "they do it, why can't we" accomplishes their goals- drives the US back to a 3rd world torture mentality and endangers our troops.
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Good arguement, interesting points. What do you consider beheadings? Is a beheading an act of torture? No one complains that the terrorists and insurgents aren't obiding by the Geneva Convention.
Beheadings are a criminal act, and if a "country" does it as a matter of practice it's barbaric. But remember: Beheading is a quick death. Death by torture last much longer. And everyone complains about these beheadings
Also: these are insurgents and terrorist doing the beheading not a country like say for example: Lebanon.
We are America: Don't we have better ways of extracting information than to physically/mentally harm people? (sorry, don;t know alot about these methods or if they even exsist)
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Puller, "no one complains"?
Do you watch the news? We're bombing the f**k outta them. They're being condemned worldwide. No one condones such atrocities, and they are summarily killed when captured. Of course no one condones such terrible things.
But to say "they do it, why can't we" accomplishes their goals- drives the US back to a 3rd world torture mentality and endangers our troops.
Agreed. Just because they do something horrible that does not make it ok for us to do the same. What I meant was, if you turn on any channel but fox, there is much more time spent bashing the president and his ideas that there is bashing truly dangerous leaders or groups. There is more complaining about Bush than there is trying to concentrateon the future and how not to make mistakes going forward. I'm not blind, it's obvious the warin Iraq is in no way going as planned or it should. We (bi-partisan) should be focusing on how to fix this problem, not every little thing that went wrong.
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Agreed. Just because they do something horrible that does not make it ok for us to do the same. What I meant was, if you turn on any channel but fox, there is much more time spent bashing the president and his ideas that there is bashing truly dangerous leaders or groups. There is more complaining about Bush than there is trying to concentrateon the future and how not to make mistakes going forward. I'm not blind, it's obvious the warin Iraq is in no way going as planned or it should. We (bi-partisan) should be focusing on how to fix this problem, not every little thing that went wrong.
Here's the thing, Puller.
The war in iraq was for 4 reasons. You choose which you want to use.
1) WMD
2) To free the iraqis
3) To spread democracy into middle east
4) To establish longterm viability of US interests in the region
#1 was the TV reason- got people scared, and all revved up. When that fell thru, #2 was the fallback reason we evolved into. Now, #3 is used as the bigger goal, how we're making the world a better place, etc.
in reality, we had Afghan war plans ready and troops/infrastructure moving into position before 9/11. We had Iraqi war plans ready as soon as we were established in Afghanistan. The US needs a foothold in these regions in order to remain dominant in the world. Imagine another 10 years, when these Iraqis, Saudis, and Syrians all get online, realize the value of the oil under their feet, convert to the Euro and shut the US out?
We'd be fucked. So, we give a series of shady reasons, we invade and establish US bases along exact same route as the future oil pipeline to the indian ocean, and the US essentially holds down the rest of the world an additional 25 years, until some new energy source arises.
It might be a lot to comprehend at once, but it will come to you in time.
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Here's the thing, Puller.
The war in iraq was for 4 reasons. You choose which you want to use.
1) WMD
2) To free the iraqis
3) To spread democracy into middle east
4) To establish longterm viability of US interests in the region
#1 was the TV reason- got people scared, and all revved up. When that fell thru, #2 was the fallback reason we evolved into. Now, #3 is used as the bigger goal, how we're making the world a better place, etc.
in reality, we had Afghan war plans ready and troops/infrastructure moving into position before 9/11. We had Iraqi war plans ready as soon as we were established in Afghanistan. The US needs a foothold in these regions in order to remain dominant in the world. Imagine another 10 years, when these Iraqis, Saudis, and Syrians all get online, realize the value of the oil under their feet, convert to the Euro and shut the US out?
We'd be fucked. So, we give a series of shady reasons, we invade and establish US bases along exact same route as the future oil pipeline to the indian ocean, and the US essentially holds down the rest of the world an additional 25 years, until some new energy source arises.
It might be a lot to comprehend at once, but it will come to you in time.
I like it! :P
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i agree with bush here...
drowning someone aint torture..
and i'm pro torture..its war for gods sake.....ok we started it for the wrong reasons but now we r in it...
what r we supposed to do...serve tea and politely ask the enemy for info??
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Why do we need torture in 2006 against crazy Iraqis, when we didn't need it in 1944 against crazy japanese?
They were suicide bombers... packed noses of kamikaze planes with bombs and took out aircraft carriers. They had a far greater attack potential.
back then, torture was illegal, and we were battling a large coalition of evil nations. Why is it legal today, when it's a small group of unorganized pricks that we're fighting?
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Why do we need torture in 2006 against crazy Iraqis, when we didn't need it in 1944 against crazy japanese?
They were suicide bombers... packed noses of kamikaze planes with bombs and took out aircraft carriers. They had a far greater attack potential.
back then, torture was illegal, and we were battling a large coalition of evil nations. Why is it legal today, when it's a small group of unorganized pricks that we're fighting?
We didn't torture in Japan, we used Enola Gay. Remember that little plane that droped just two bombs.
I'm not saying I believe that there were/are WMDs in Iraq. I do believe Sadam needed to be ousted and the world is a better place without him in power. Also, we should be securing our interests all over the world. If this means we have to go to war, just or unjust depending on opinion, to secure our position ten or twenty years from now then so be it. Even if there weren't WMDs in Iraq it was only a matter of time. The president has listened to both parties and now we have Kim Jong Il testing nuclear weapons and Iran and the Tehran working diligintely to get them. We have to be a proactive country not a reactive one. The days of waiting to be attacked, 12/7/41, 9/11/01, and then deciding to go to war are gone.
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I am very right sided and I do think Bush is doing a good job in office. However, I also believe we use the tactics needed to ensure safety for this country. I don't believe there is a dungeonand people are being rackedor having bambooshoots shoved in their nailbeds or water torture. Sensory deprivation, truth serum, and other methods I'm sure are used and very well should be. No terrorist or insurgent is going to say, "Well, I guess you got me. What do you want to know?" Things don't work that way. The country is a safer place and we have stopped many terrorist attacks both here and abroad because of the methods and tactics put in place by the Bush admiistration.
That's fine and dandy, but why can't Bush be upfront about the use of torture tactics?
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That's fine and dandy, but why can't Bush be upfront about the use of torture tactics?
There are certain things that the general public does not need to know. Like all the tactics we use or our exact military strategies. I acknowledge the fact that Bush and the administration don't always say the right things but the things that are said, are said for a reason. There are people in the white house and pentagon with much more knowledge about the workings of the international community than anyone on this board, including myself. The public should not know everything the government is doing. The majority of the public vote based solely on how they "feel" about a person or whether they like the way the person speaks.
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There are certain things that the general public does not need to know. Like all the tactics we use or our exact military strategies. I acknowledge the fact that Bush and the administration don't always say the right things but the things that are said, are said for a reason. There are people in the white house and pentagon with much more knowledge about the workings of the international community than anyone on this board, including myself. The public should not know everything the government is doing. The majority of the public vote based solely on how they "feel" about a person or whether they like the way the person speaks.
I was under the impression that the United States was a democracy.
And you think it's okay for the government to lie to its people? You think the government is always benevolent in its cause? If they can lie to us about these terror interrogation issues, than what's to say they wont lie to us about other things? Bush and his administration are getting away with things, things they would traditionally be punished for. Allowing him to do these kinds of things opens the flood gates for power that would tradionally not be allowed in a democratic republic.
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At what point in the history of this country do you believe the government has not lied to the people. That is the way things go. We sacrifice certain freedoms and rights in order to guarantee the safety. We do not always know whats going on. I support the Bush administration and think they are doing a wonderful job. I admit the Administration is not the best thing since sliced bread but it is not completing incomprehensible acts or crimes against this country
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Puller,
I wish I had the smile you wear through every day of your life. :)
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Puller,
I wish I had the smile you wear through every day of your life. :)
;D