Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Mixed Martial Arts (MMA/UFC) => Topic started by: rugged_bloke89 on November 28, 2006, 03:42:53 AM
-
Now i (much like everyone else) have heard rumours of the many fighting feats and extreme strength of Bruce lee, so who here believes that he (when alive) was the greatest fighter in the world. If you reckon he wasnt can you post who you think would be able to beat him? (Mike Tyson, anyone?)
id just like to see everyones opinion on this. I personally believe he was and will always will be possibly the greatest fighter with the most focus that ever lived.
-
Fedor, end of thread.
-
Now i (much like everyone else) have heard rumours of the many fighting feats and extreme strength of Bruce lee, so who here believes that he (when alive) was the greatest fighter in the world. If you reckon he wasnt can you post who you think would be able to beat him? (Mike Tyson, anyone?)
id just like to see everyones opinion on this. I personally believe he was and will always will be possibly the greatest fighter with the most focus that ever lived.
Innovator, yes. Ahead of his time, yes. First MMA advocate, yes. Greatest fighter, no. I am the BIGGEST Lee Jun Fan fan (pun intended), a former WC instructor, and an assistant instructor of JKDC, that being said, any good lightweight fighter of today would beat the snot out of the "Little Dragon." Norifumi Yamamoto would demolish Bruce. He is much like a 1967 Camaro Z28, good for his day, but doesn't compare to a 2002 Z28. Happy Belated Birthday, Bruce.
-
Innovator, yes. Ahead of his time, yes. First MMA advocate, yes. Greatest fighter, no. I am the BIGGEST Lee Jun Fan fan (pun intended), a former WC instructor, and an assistant instructor of JKDC, that being said, any good lightweight fighter of today would beat the snot out of the "Little Dragon." Norifumi Yamamoto would demolish Bruce. He is much like a 1967 Camaro Z28, good for his day, but doesn't compare to a 2002 Z28. Happy Belated Birthday, Bruce.
Ill second that one..... And it saves me the effort of typing the same thing...
-
yes bruce is the greatest. end of story
next
-
Now i (much like everyone else) have heard rumours of the many fighting feats and extreme strength of Bruce lee, so who here believes that he (when alive) was the greatest fighter in the world. If you reckon he wasnt can you post who you think would be able to beat him? (Mike Tyson, anyone?)
id just like to see everyones opinion on this. I personally believe he was and will always will be possibly the greatest fighter with the most focus that ever lived.
i'd say any ufc fighters can take him...
-
theres really no way to tell... he was way ahead of his time like some else said, but you can't compare him to the talent today...
-
Bruce lee was an actor, Chuck would KTFO bruce lee. He's a myth.
-
Bruce lee was an actor, Chuck would KTFO bruce lee. He's a myth.
exactly
the only people that actually believe this myth are people that don't fight.
who the hell did bruce fight? i mean REALLY fight, not in a movie or with some submissive dojo trainee.
let you in on a secret. if a fighter doesn't constantly fight the best fighters he doesn't become a great fighter. kind of like if a tennis player doesn't compete against the best tennis players. probably even more so because there's a lot more to fighting that is impossible to learn without fighting ie how do you react to getting hit/pressure? do you flinch, throw? good fighters don't react, they don't even blink.
throwing very fast arm punches in the air/ doing the splits on chairs/throwing kicks 7ft up in the air/kicking a heavy bag hard, etc DON'T make good fighters.
-
Bruce lee was an actor, Chuck would KTFO bruce lee. He's a myth.
Except that Bruce Lee was Chucks teacher. Bruce trained Mike Stone, Chuck Norris and Joe Lewis. All three dominated the full contact Karate circuit. Both Mike Stone and Chuck Norris deny that Bruce taught them anything, that they collaborated instead. Joe Lewis went on to become the first full contact kickboxing champ and gave Bruce credit for his improvements. Linda Lee Caldwell has journal entries of all of Bruce's famous clients including Steve McQueen, James Coburn, Churk Norris, Mike Stone. Dan Inosanto has SEEN Bruce spar with all of the above, and said that Bruce was easily the best of any of them. That being said, Norifumi Yamamoto still rapes him.
-
only because he has an adapted style which is more well rounded. Anyway, Bruce was NEVER Chucks instructor - they showed each other new aspects of their fighting styles. Chuck was a renowned martial artist years before bruce met him
-
Except that Bruce Lee was Chucks teacher. Bruce trained Mike Stone, Chuck Norris and Joe Lewis. All three dominated the full contact Karate circuit. Both Mike Stone and Chuck Norris deny that Bruce taught them anything, that they collaborated instead. Joe Lewis went on to become the first full contact kickboxing champ and gave Bruce credit for his improvements. Linda Lee Caldwell has journal entries of all of Bruce's famous clients including Steve McQueen, James Coburn, Churk Norris, Mike Stone. Dan Inosanto has SEEN Bruce spar with all of the above, and said that Bruce was easily the best of any of them. That being said, Norifumi Yamamoto still rapes him.
1. 'full contact karate' is not even close to real fighting. don't kid yourself. it's all so nice and politically correct. did you ever see that debacle that flex put on with that fat f**k at the arnold classic? that was your stock standard 'full contact karate' bout. doesn't it just send shivers down your spine? ::)
2. sparring means nothing, especially in karate. the purpose of sparring in karate is to simply hone skills. that's it.
3. with that in mind, bruce was the INSTRUCTER. a trainee is not going to beat up the instructer. cus d'amato probably couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag. does that mean he didn't know HOW to fight? of course not, he trained 3 undisputed world champions.
bruce lee was no doubt a good fighter and, yes, of course he had forgotten more about kung fu than the americans would ever know. the americans at that time were complete novices to kung fu. do you actually think they are going to say anything different about him?
-
Except that Bruce Lee was Chucks teacher. Bruce trained Mike Stone, Chuck Norris and Joe Lewis. All three dominated the full contact Karate circuit. Both Mike Stone and Chuck Norris deny that Bruce taught them anything, that they collaborated instead. Joe Lewis went on to become the first full contact kickboxing champ and gave Bruce credit for his improvements. Linda Lee Caldwell has journal entries of all of Bruce's famous clients including Steve McQueen, James Coburn, Churk Norris, Mike Stone. Dan Inosanto has SEEN Bruce spar with all of the above, and said that Bruce was easily the best of any of them. That being said, Norifumi Yamamoto still rapes him.
those that can't do ..... teach.
-
1. 'full contact karate' is not even close to real fighting. don't kid yourself. it's all so nice and politically correct. did you ever see that debacle that flex put on with that fat f**k at the arnold classic? that was your stock standard 'full contact karate' bout. doesn't it just send shivers down your spine? ::)
2. sparring means nothing, especially in karate. the purpose of sparring in karate is to simply hone skills. that's it.
3. with that in mind, bruce was the INSTRUCTER. a trainee is not going to beat up the instructor. cus d'amato probably couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag. does that mean he didn't know HOW to fight? of course not, he trained 3 undisputed world chapions.
bruce lee was no doubt a good fighter and, yes, of course he had forgotten more about kung fu than the americans would ever know. the americans at that time were complete novices to kung fu. do you actually think they are going to say anything different about him?
Joe Lewis was the FIRST FULL CONTACT champion. Not the tournament stuff that Flex did, but in a ring, boxing, and kicking (hence the name). (BTW, Joe broke Chuck Norris ribs) Bruce would introduce himself to these fighters and solicit them to train with them. How do you supposed he got them to want to train with him? He would spar with them FULL CONTACT and show them he had concepts and ideas that would improve their game. Who was the first guy to transition from using boxing gloves to using open finger gloves for sparring? Bruce Lee. Who was the first westerner to don shin guards, chest protection and boxing headgear and spar all out? Bruce Lee. Who was the first traditional martial artist who added and blended Kicking, Punching, Clinching, Grappling into a smooth synergistic art? Bruce Lee. Don't confuse the movie guy from the real guy. I have trained with Guro Dan Inosanto, Sifu Richard Bustillo (two original students of Bruce Lee) and both of them became students of Bruce even though they were black belts in Kempo with Ed Parker because they couldn't touch Bruce in sparring. Sifu Richard was also a golden gloves champ from Kalihi (a tough neighborhood in Hawaii), Guro Dan was a brown belt in Judo. Both of these men can attest to Bruce's ability, and both say he was years ahead of anyone at the time. That being said, he would get killed by today's champs, not to mention he would 66. No doubt he would have gotten into Jiujitsu. At the time of his death he was already doing Muay Thai, and was adding catch as catchcan wrestling, judo to his art.
-
Frank Dux ;D
-
just because you look like a champ working the mitts and hitting the bag , doesn't mean you can do the same when you are being cracked on the chin.
-
just because you look like a champ working the mitts and hitting the bag , doesn't mean you can do the same when you are being cracked on the chin.
I agree totally. I look like a champ until I get clipped, then I drop and go for the double.
-
Does anyone hear know who Bob Wall is
-
Does anyone hear know who Bob Wall is
Perenial bad guy, sparring partner of Chuck Norris and managed Kaheke Alexio later in life.
-
Does anyone hear know who Bob Wall is
never met wall, just heard stuff from other people. supposed to be a karate legend and a guy who really could fight, a bit nuts. also fairly close to the bruce lee gang ie chuck norris, mike stone, etc.
i've met and shook hands with norris (who hasn't?), but that's it, never hung out with him. would have been pretty cool to hang with some of these guys after all the stories i've heard.
onlyme, i understand you hung around chuck norris a bit so you've probably met wall.
you got any stories? heard he was a good fighter and didn't back down from one either.
-
Do you remember when karate was something that every one was impressed with , until mma got big and you saw an endless line of stand up fighters getting choked out and arm barred. No one knew what a sprawl was.
-
Do you remember when karate was something that every one was impressed with , until mma got big and you saw an endless line of stand up fighters getting choked out and arm barred. No one knew what a sprawl was.
lol, yes, i believe the karate kids got owned by everyone. even the street brawlers were owning them.
main problems with karate against a good all round fighter are:
1. not used to getting hit hard in the head and tend to go to pieces when they do.
2. way too tight, don't use angles and sit way too long on a strike.
3. arm punch
4. too kick happy and, again, sit too long on the kick ie one foot in the air = taken down real quick.
-
Bruce lee was an actor, Chuck would KTFO bruce lee. He's a myth.
Bruce lee was a martial artist long before he became an actor..i want to also point out that he fought anyone/everyone who ever challenged him,bareknuckle/no rules(he even had to fight to win the right to teach)..i can not think of a lightweight fighter(dead or alive) that has the speed,power,and technique that Bruce lee had..not a myth,he was a legend(and certainly not because of his awful acting)..
-
translation, you just finnished watching "the dragon" and you think you can write a book on Bruce Lee.
-
lol, yes, i believe the karate kids got owned by everyone. even the street brawlers were owning them.
main problems with karate against a good all round fighter are:
1. not used to getting hit hard in the head and tend to go to pieces when they do.
2. way too tight, don't use angles and sit way too long on a strike.
3. arm punch
4. too kick happy and, again, sit too long on the kick ie one foot in the air = taken down real quick.
a lot of martial arts are not pratical.... a fight doesnt end and reset as soon as you land a clean blow. Could you imagine a boxing match , where after every clean jab landed the ref jumped in and broke them apart and then awarded a point.
-
translation, you just finnished watching "the dragon" and you think you can write a book on Bruce Lee.
translation,translation..we're in a "bruce lee" thread and i pointed out the only thing you know about him..i was 2 years old when he died,so i obviously never met the dude and any info i learned about him came from books and film..i'm just saying that Bruce lee fought real fights and isn't getting enough respect in this thread..shame on you all
-
a lot of martial arts are not pratical.... a fight doesnt end and reset as soon as you land a clean blow. Could you imagine a boxing match , where after every clean jab landed the ref jumped in and broke them apart and then awarded a point.
I have attended the JFJKD foundation meetings, and have personally witnessed film of Bruce sparring with all of his students, no tag, no refs. Just he and Guro Dan, Sifu Richard, Sifu Larry Hartsell, dropping them with nice crisp boxing combinations with low and highline kicks, so yes he could fight. I am a Wing Chun instructor (no longer practice) and a Jeet Kune Do Concepts assistant instructor. Could he fight with today's fighters. NO WAY. Could he take care of himself against 1964-1973 fighters? Yes. Lets keep it in perspective.
-
Bruce Lee is an icon...... He was the first person that got people interested in the martial arts in the west . I look at Bruce Lee alot like I look at Muhammad Ali. Neither were the greatest , but both are the most recognizable icons in their pursuits. Difference was Ali actually participated in his field and paid the physical price, and Bruce lee made movies about kicking ass.
-
never met wall, just heard stuff from other people. supposed to be a karate legend and a guy who really could fight, a bit nuts. also fairly close to the bruce lee gang ie chuck norris, mike stone, etc.
i've met and shook hands with norris (who hasn't?), but that's it, never hung out with him. would have been pretty cool to hang with some of these guys after all the stories i've heard.
onlyme, i understand you hung around chuck norris a bit so you've probably met wall.
you got any stories? heard he was a good fighter and didn't back down from one either.
Actually I know Bob well. Met him through Chuck. Went out to eat a couple times with him. To date he has the neatest office I have evevr been in. He owns mega real Estate in the Valley. He owns several mini malls and shoppig Centers on Ventura Bl. All of them have "Wall" in the title. He collects Tarzan memeorabilia and his office is like a jungle. Really cool. He is the only person to appear in every Bruce Lee movie (at least thats what he told me). I never got a copy of this pic we took but some magazine guy was at Benny Uriquez Gym (The Jet Center) when I was there training and took a pic of (me, Bill Wallace, Bob Wall, Chuck Norris, Benny, Blinky, Joe Lewis, Sugarfoot and a couple others but can't remember names) I wish I had a copy of that pic.
Anyway me and Bob had a falling out a few years ago. It was kind of stupid and couldn't believe what he did or was saying to me. He was managing Dennis Alexio too at the time. I think we made up but can't remember. I'm sure when we see each again we'll be fine.
-
I dont understand why Bruce Lee wouldnt be able to pose a threat to the fighters today, he had the speed, concentration, strength, etc...(but im talkin about in his prime, not if he were to be 60 today). How has fighting evolved so much that Bruce wouldnt be able to stand up to most fighters of today? ??? not baggin out anyone but i wouldnt mind a plausible answer with an example if you could
-
I dont understand why Bruce Lee wouldnt be able to pose a threat to the fighters today, he had the speed, concentration, strength, etc...(but im talkin about in his prime, not if he were to be 60 today). How has fighting evolved so much that Bruce wouldnt be able to stand up to most fighters of today? ??? not baggin out anyone but i wouldnt mind a plausible answer with an example if you could
No defense for the muay thai plum, no takedown defense, little ground experience would make him meat for today's fighters. If you are a one trick pony (stand up), your opposition will take you down and finish the fight there.
-
8)
-
i'm sorry but lee didn't even have the stand up.
student is right. boxing is by far the best stand up skill. hands are everything in stand up. you need to keep both feet on the ground and if you're going to be a legitemate force. kicks are a luxury and practically the only kick i'll use in a bout/fight will be a round house kick to the thigh, calf.
unfortunately most people on this board have NO idea about actual fighting. y'all go by what you see on the movies. well i'm here to tell you that looks can be very very deceiving.
lee was very good 'looking', but practically, most of his stuff was completely USELESS. he would get owned very quickly in a modern mma bout.
in a street fight he would get owned by someone willing and prepared to use EVERY weapon at his disposal. whether that be biting, butting, tearing, baseball bat, knife, gun, etc, etc, etc.
naive/americans are SO influenced by fantasy and what's on their television screen. ;D
as pointed out, lee was an actor with SOME real world ability that was somewhat greater than ignorant americans were (to that point) used to. he made an absolute meal of it because he was a cocky s.o.b.
thanx onlyme. man, you knew everyone! we're lucky to have you on here.
-
If you watch any Bruce lee movies, his fight scenes are full of flashy/glamorous techniques which would be useless in a real fight..if you make judgments based on what he does in movies, of coarse he wouldn't stand a chance with a good mma fighter(But,he was just "acting" for the movie)...Why is everyone overlooking the fact that he had tons of real street fights and fought(and beat) anyone
-
i'm sorry but lee didn't even have the stand up.
student is right. boxing is by far the best stand up skill. hands are everything in stand up. you need to keep both feet on the ground and if you're going to be a legitemate force. kicks are a luxury and practically the only kick i'll use in a bout/fight will be a round house kick to the thigh, calf.
unfortunately most people on this board have NO idea about actual fighting. y'all go by what you see on the movies. well i'm here to tell you that looks can be very very deceiving.
lee was very good 'looking', but practically, most of his stuff was completely USELESS. he would get owned very quickly in a modern mma bout.
in a street fight he would get owned by someone willing and prepared to use EVERY weapon at his disposal. whether that be biting, butting, tearing, baseball bat, knife, gun, etc, etc, etc.
naive/americans are SO influenced by fantasy and what's on their television screen. ;D
as pointed out, lee was an actor with SOME real world ability that was somewhat greater than ignorant americans were (to that point) used to. he made an absolute meal of it because he was a cocky s.o.b.
thanx onlyme. man, you knew everyone! we're lucky to have you on here.
You fucking out of the country fuk... jesus i get so sick of hearing you AMERICANS..... are you from france..... Bruce Lee wouldnt have a chance in a fight with todays MMA artists i will agree with you there. But to say that Bruce Lee didnt have any stand up proves you to be a fool. Bruce lee was a small man that knew much of pressure points and also energy transition... Two things that i believe are a huge advantage in a fight. two the man was fast as hell and very accurate. He trained traditional martial arts right from the origin of it. Not that it makes a huge differance but i wuld rather train in tailand if i was going to do kick bocking so bruce trained in his style in the home of it.... before he came to america... and yes bruce lee wouldnt stand a chance against a gun maybe not a knife... but how well would you most people dont train against weapons.... and im sure you love fedor hes a great fighter but do you think he could defend a gun a knife a baseball bat.... i gurantee bruce in his prime would be a small but quick agile powerful and accurate force to reckon with... size isnt always shit..
-
I'd rather train in the Kronk gym , or the wildcard then thailand. People love Bruce Lee. I'm not trying to tear him down, I'm just saying people go over the top about him. He doesn't have the credibility that a true proffesional has. Some one affliated with a organization that sanctions matches , can be evaluated against his level of opposition , his wins versus loses, championships he has won etc. Bruce Lee is unfairly given a free pass over people that have risked their health , and fought legitamite matches on record and in front of witnesses. He may have been the best representitive , but without a true account of his abilities, he can't be called or even mentioned amoung anyone who climbed in a ring.
-
Every one can fight until they get clipped on that chin.
-
precisely. if you don't fight the best opponents you CAN'T be the best fighter. it's an impossibility and that is why bruce lee is a myth created by movie producers.
someone tell me WHO lee fought, i mean REALLY fought, in a sanctioned bout with someone of decent calibre, not some subordinate in a controlled setting ie dojo. anyone ??? oh, and please, NO fictitious stories created by nut huggers. i want a little more proof than, 'i read in...' or 'i saw in a movie...'
sincity, you sound like the typical american i speak of, all angry and shit where there is zero risk of accounting for it ie message board. key board tough guy. ;D
let me guess, you're 14 yrs old and live with ma and pa. you're obese because you eat way too much home cooked apple pie and watch too much tv just like ma and pa.
i know you can't fight because if you actually learned how to you'd know that you NEVER show your emotions, especially anger. melting down is a very obvious sign of a little brat with low self esteem.
-
precisely. if you don't fight the best opponents you CAN'T be the best fighter. it's an impossibility and that is why bruce lee is a myth created by movie producers.
someone tell me WHO lee fought, i mean REALLY fought, in a sanctioned bout with someone of decent calibre, not some subordinate in a controlled setting ie dojo. anyone ??? oh, and please, NO fictitious stories created by nut huggers. i want a little more proof than, 'i read in...' or 'i saw in a movie...'
sincity, you sound like the typical american i speak of, all angry and shit where there is zero risk of accounting for it ie message board. key board tough guy. ;D
let me guess, you're 14 yrs old and live with ma and pa. you're obese because you eat way too much home cooked
apple pie and watch too much tv just like ma and pa.
i know you can't fight because if you actually learned how to you'd know that you NEVER show your emotions, especially anger. melting down is a very obvious sign of a little brat with low self esteem.
Beast you my friend sound like the out of country fuck who has no idea... angry never, first i havent gotten angry at all... but good try attempting to read me... but my friend that was a horrible attempt. second i wasnt saying that bruce lee was a good fighter or that he ever did fight... im just saying that the man was a great martial artist. and sorry beast not quite 14 a little bit older, married and dont live with mom... And not obese either HINT FOR YOU LOOK AT THE NAME..... Small doesnt mean obese.. but another nice try... Not a very large fan of apple pie either.. And working 10 hour days not much time for tv would rather listen to glenn beck and rush limbaugh.... but you were close. And when it comes to fighting i have no idea how to. ive just been training for the last 13 years.. but you my friend must be a brit or french... im sure you have some horrible body odor. Nasty teeth. and more then likely suck penis for tea on the weekend. let me guess you must live with your man lover and paint pictures of cows. what the hell are you talking about you dont know me nor do i know you so dotn assume aything... save yorself the problem of looking like an ass..... AND NO THIS IS NOT A MELTDOWN.... so all the nuthugging meltdown callers save yourself the hassle...
-
great, thanx for telling me your life story ::) also, with another added melt down at the conclusion.
btw, i have no doubt you're small (the small man syndrome's a bit of a give away ;)). that doesn't mean you're not obese though, but i'll take your word for it. let's just call you pleasantly plump seeing as you're being so nice and sharing your life story with me.
so is there anything else you want to get off your chest little american boy? maybe you want to tell me exactly how you fight or have you already done that on this board.
you might have participated for 13 years, but you aint no fighter little boy.
-
great, thanx for telling me your life story ::) also, with another added melt down at the conclusion.
btw, i have no doubt you're small (the small man syndrome's a bit of a give away ;)). that doesn't mean you're not obese though, but i'll take your word for it. let's just call you pleasantly plump seeing as you're being so nice and sharing your life story with me.
so is there anything else you want to get off your chest little american boy? maybe you want to tell me exactly how you fight or have you already done that on this board.
you might have participated for 13 years, but you aint no fighter little boy.
Yep Your right buddy no fighter.. And im sure you must bne the next fedor... slap yourself and wake up.... The only thing you've ever beat is your French lover fedinand's cock... keep wanking buddy....
-
Maybe the problem is in the definition. If by martial artist you mean, some one that can preform all the punches and kicks quick and gracefully , like in an exhibition? Then yeah, maybe Bruce Lee is the greatest martial artist of all time. If you mean can he take those skills and apply them in a real setting against anyone successfully? No. This argument is going downhill real quick. I might find more a difference between martial artist and a fighter.
-
Maybe the problem is in the definition. If by martial artist you mean, some one that can preform all the punches and kicks quick and gracefully , like in an exhibition? Then yeah, maybe Bruce Lee is the greatest martial artist of all time. If you mean can he take those skills and apply them in a real setting against anyone successfully? No. This argument is going downhill real quick. I might find more a difference between martial artist and a fighter.
A lot of you have no clue about Bruce as a martial artist. He was not a pressure points guy ala George Dildo. He was a wing chun man who was unable to make his wing chun techniques work in America like they did in Hong Kong. He started modifying kung fu techniques to work for him. When he found that kung fu techniques would not work in a seamless flow, he started doing western boxing, judo (actually enrolled in a class), took concepts from fencing, added in some muay thai and catchascatchcan wrestling with some jiujitsu. Do not mistake functional Jeet Kune Do with movie Jeet Kune Do. He would not have fought as he did in movies. Again, I have seen actual training footage of Bruce with his top students, and he looked like a modern day mma fighter (not as crisp, no groundwork). He would transition from kicking, punching range. Move side to side with a lot of head movement, change levels on strikes (high low high, inside kick, outside kick). Would he be comparable to today's fighters NO! But would a 1973 Mustang be comparable to a 2006 GT500? Of course not. This debate is whether or not he is the greatest martial artist.
Again, as a Bruce Lee fan, NO! Did he have a profound impact on martial arts? YES. Was he, like the Gracie's doing his own interpretation of MMA back in the 60's and 70's? YES. If Keith were to ask Bob Wall how Bruce got his students, he would tell you Bruce would "Dojo storm" other schools, watch at first, then ask to spar with the toughest fighters. He would systematically take them apart, then leave the school with the embarassed fighter asking to be trained by Bruce. Through O'hara publishing (Black Belt magazine), he had an open challenge to ANYONE. This is Bruce Lee the fighter. So one of the better fighters of his day? DEFINITELY. Good enough for today? HELL NO! I have no doubt, had he been alive, he would be a BJJ blackbelt, and a big MMA advocate. Just prior to his death, he was quoted as saying a man with 1 years boxing experience and some wrestling would beat 100% of the black belts out there. (This didn't make him popular with the McDojo school owners at the time since he was the hottest thing out). So there it is.
-
Bulldog I agree with the 73 Mustang compared to the new Shelby. Except, you can make the 73 Mustang beat the new Shelby with some work on the engine and suspension and drive train. Same with Bruce Lee. Sure the way he was way back then wouldn't do well against todays MMA guys but guaranteed if the Bruce Lee of long ago trained like they did today and learned all the aspects to MMA then he would absolutely be one of the best if not the best. There is not one guy in MMA with the total physical abilities and conditioning of Bruce Lee. His mental strength is perhaps his strongest. I am pretty sure he would have trained and trained and trained some more and would have dominated in MMA today. But, everyone is right he wouldn't have done well today with yesterdays skills only.
And another point. Allot of people rag on pro wrestlers (WWE and others) saying they can't fight it's all fake. Believe me faking a fight and making it look real is harder than doing it for real. These guys control punches and kicks NOT to hurt the person. Being able to let it go and hit the target is allot easier. Ask any stuntman. Most of them them throw good clean punches at full speed and miss by inches and sometime less. That takes allot of skill to do that.
-
Bulldog I agree with the 73 Mustang compared to the new Shelby. Except, you can make the 73 Mustang beat the new Shelby with some work on the engine and suspension and drive train. Same with Bruce Lee. Sure the way he was way back then wouldn't do well against todays MMA guys but guaranteed if the Bruce Lee of long ago trained like they did today and learned all the aspects to MMA then he would absolutely be one of the best if not the best. There is not one guy in MMA with the total physical abilities and conditioning of Bruce Lee. His mental strength is perhaps his strongest. I am pretty sure he would have trained and trained and trained some more and would have dominated in MMA today. But, everyone is right he wouldn't have done well today with yesterdays skills only.
And another point. Allot of people rag on pro wrestlers (WWE and others) saying they can't fight it's all fake. Believe me faking a fight and making it look real is harder than doing it for real. These guys control punches and kicks NOT to hurt the person. Being able to let it go and hit the target is allot easier. Ask any stuntman. Most of them them throw good clean punches at full speed and miss by inches and sometime less. That takes allot of skill to do that.
True dat. I know of a certain pro wrestler from Japan that ran roughshod over the Gracies. Japanese pro wrestlers are truer to the roots of real wrestling. Gotch had a big impact on wrestling and fighting in Japan.
-
Again, Bruce Lee did not compete in sanctioned matches, you can't look up on boxrec.com and see his professional record...... Did he have any legit fights? He might have been a tough guy and sparred his students, but wouldn't these tapes you have seen be used to promote his gym? Only makes sense he might look like a complete badass if these tapes were really nothing more then early infomercials.....
You can't judge a guy by what you think he could have done, you have to judge a guy by what he did. He was a great promoter. He hasnt fought for titles or won tournaments, he played a butler in the green hornet , and made kung fu movies.
-
Again, Bruce Lee did not compete in sanctioned matches, you can't look up on boxrec.com and see his professional record...... Did he have any legit fights? He might have been a tough guy and sparred his students, but wouldn't these tapes you have seen be used to promote his gym? Only makes sense he might look like a complete badass if these tapes were really nothing more then early infomercials.....
You can't judge a guy by what you think he could have done, you have to judge a guy by what he did. He was a great promoter. He hasnt fought for titles or won tournaments, he played a butler in the green hornet , and made kung fu movies.
He thought tournaments at the time were a waste of time because of the light contact. He called them glorified games of tag. Many witnesses to the Wong Jack Man fight which he won convincingly. This fight was depicted in "Dragon, the Bruce Lee story." Unlike the movie, he wasn't hur seriously, but this fight (which allowed him to continue to teach Gwai los (white people)) is what formulated him to stop doing Kung Fu as an art. He started using boxing, wrestling and kicking. We can debate this all we want. I have actually trained with Dan Inosanto, Richard Bustillo, Larry Hartsell. I have heard first hand accounts of his "challenge" matches and am satisfied with what I know. His infamous 1964 Karate Invitational video is all over the internet. He spars with Taky Kimura (one of his students, full contact). It was this appearance that got him looked at by William Dozier, the man who would cast him as Kato.
-
I know Ali was great because I have a 26 dvd set of all his fights..... If I didn't have that I could look at many magazines that showed pictures of his fights.... the fighters that he fought also had careers and accomplished some success before fighting Ali so I know he was fighting some one with a pulse...... Ali didn't make movies about being a great boxer and then kick some guys ass in a gym some where. That's not how he built his legend. He built it by fighting quality opponents.
-
naive/americans are SO influenced by fantasy and what's on their television screen. ;D
They are also believe 100 % what there media says them
-
Fedor, end of thread.
Is that a lepricorn?
-
Innovator, yes. Ahead of his time, yes. First MMA advocate, yes. Greatest fighter, no. I am the BIGGEST Lee Jun Fan fan (pun intended), a former WC instructor, and an assistant instructor of JKDC, that being said, any good lightweight fighter of today would beat the snot out of the "Little Dragon." Norifumi Yamamoto would demolish Bruce. He is much like a 1967 Camaro Z28, good for his day, but doesn't compare to a 2002 Z28. Happy Belated Birthday, Bruce.
Exactly right!
-
lol, yes, i believe the karate kids got owned by everyone. even the street brawlers were owning them.
main problems with karate against a good all round fighter are:
1. not used to getting hit hard in the head and tend to go to pieces when they do.
2. way too tight, don't use angles and sit way too long on a strike.
3. arm punch
4. too kick happy and, again, sit too long on the kick ie one foot in the air = taken down real quick.
Karate teaches just the opposite of all those things.
The karate punch is not an arm punch AT ALL. Full contact karate requires many matches before blackbelt is awarded. And holding the foot in the air is wrong.
In mixed standup competition Kyokushin fighters tend to dominate pure kickboxers (see Andy Hug and Lebanner).
Who are all these karate fighters that are being dominated?
Name some names?
Andy Hug - K-1 champion
Lebanner - top rank K-1
Bas Rutten - UFC champ, pancrase champ....
Gerard Gordeau - made it to finals before being defeated by Graci (UFC 1)
When you can do this, you will understand the value of years training, and the perfection of technique.
&mode=related&search=
-
The bat was sawed u can tell by the way the break is ;) saw a board or dowling 1/2 through and hit it it will beake the same way. none of those names use karate techiniqus in the ring anyways either sorry to burst ur bubble.
-
The bat was sawed u can tell by the way the break is ;) saw a board or dowling 1/2 through and hit it it will beake the same way. none of those names use karate techiniqus in the ring anyways either sorry to burst ur bubble.
You're not bursting any bubble.
Andy Hug is a legend in Kyokushin and he uses KARATE in the ring. K-1 champ. His axe kick was famous. I doubt he would cheat like that.
Bas Rutten's strikes are textbook karate. He punches straight from the hip. It's a technique that takes a few years to master and be able to use effectively - but it's extremely powerful. Opposite of an arm punch. Bas himself credits his striking power to his Kyokushin Karate blackbelt.
ALL those guys use Karate in the ring. Bas, Hug, Lebanner, Gordeau. All have proven themselves. They are all black belts. Bas is 4th dan I believe. All dominate karate fighters.
&mode=related&search=
&mode=related&search=
-
"Just prior to his death, he was quoted as saying a man with 1 years boxing experience and some wrestling would beat 100% of the black belts out there. (This didn't make him popular with the McDojo school owners at the time since he was the hottest thing out). So there it is."
this might just be the most poignant point of the whole thread. if there is one thing i admire most about lee is that he was honest to himself which is probably the greatest trait a fighter or even a man can have.
he is exactly right because he knew that real fighting was a very difficult thing to learn because it's not just whether you can throw a perfect left hook or a right roundhouse kick in a controlled setting. can you do it under pressure? can you set it up with timing and distance whilst your equally skilled opponent is reading you like a book? can you do it after you've been cracked so hard on your liver or kidneys that you can't even feel your legs anymore? can you do it so as you don't get countered? will you be open if it doesn't land? i could spend the next 3 pages doing this and we're only talking about one strike. i haven't even approached combinations/defence/shooting/grappling/sprawling, etc, etc.
these are the things we have ZERO evidence about lee. i have asked for one person to tell me WHO lee has fought and i've received some bullshit about lee not wanting to bother with a light strike karate tournament. yes i understand that, but what was stopping him entering a bare knuckle or boxing match. there were plenty of sanctioned fights and underground fights around in his day. he didn't enter any of them.
why? because he knew he would get owned and exposed in front of everyone. his mythical status would have been destroyed and the contrived american legend would have crumbled right there. a bit like seeing prime davey crocket in the flesh getting the absolute shit kicked out of him by a baby bear. ;D
now, if lee were still alive and you asked him this HONESTLY eye to eye, i believe that he would have admitted it and, seriously, how could anyone blame him? the guy made millions from the ignorance and naivety of the masses who at the end of the day wouldn't know/care about the first thing about REAL fighting and simply wish to be entertained. a myth/legend inspires stupidity wonder and creates a buzz of excitement and stories to tell.
people, the title of this thread is 'Re: Bruce Lee the greatest fighter that ever lived?'
note the 'greatest fighter' part and the ? mark.
that right there is the discussion point, not who is a great martial artist or who looked the best, had the most nut huggers or, for christ's sake, who could AVOID hurting someone the best.
there is absolutely ZERO proof that lee was even A great fighter, never mind 'greatest'. ANYONE who states that lee was the greatest fighter or one of, i KNOW, is talking straight from the rectum.
-
If bruce Lee is the greatest , then jean claude van damme should at least be top five. And batman totally kicks superman's ass.
-
If bruce Lee is the greatest , then jean claude van damme should at least be top five. And batman totally kicks superman's ass.
hey, don't forget davey crocket.
-
hey, don't forget davey crocket.
davey crocket would have to at least be a three to one underdog against robocop.
-
davey crocket would have to at least be a three to one underdog against robocop.
not if he brings mr feeze with him.
-
yup. end of thread?
-
yup. end of thread?
yep, i think that pretty well does it.
case closed.
batman is the greatest fighter of all time
-
Karate teaches just the opposite of all those things.
The karate punch is not an arm punch AT ALL. Full contact karate requires many matches before blackbelt is awarded. And holding the foot in the air is wrong.
In mixed standup competition Kyokushin fighters tend to dominate pure kickboxers (see Andy Hug and Lebanner).
Who are all these karate fighters that are being dominated?
Name some names?
Andy Hug - K-1 champion
Except most of these fighters will revert back to a strict boxing structure when fighting in K1 rules, or MMA style fights.
Lebanner - top rank K-1
Bas Rutten - UFC champ, pancrase champ....
Gerard Gordeau - made it to finals before being defeated by Graci (UFC 1)
When you can do this, you will understand the value of years training, and the perfection of technique.
&mode=related&search=
Except that most of these fighters will revert back to a boxing structure when fighting in K1 or MMA style rules.
-
yep, i think that pretty well does it.
case closed.
batman is the greatest fighter of all time
No, the Punisher is.
-
Except that most of these fighters will revert back to a boxing structure when fighting in K1 or MMA style rules.
That was my point I wasnt talking K-1, but fighting in genral no one uses K-1 rules in a street fight.
-
Dominique Vandenberg or Benny "The Jet"
-
Bruce Lee was way more than an actor! Alot of the toughest guys around the world, used to climb over his fence to kick his ass or challenge him and would leave his property f***** up!! Lee is the Greatest!
-
Bruce could single handedly defeat all the ufc champions blindfolded in at the same time!
-
cheeky bastard! stealing my Avatar! ;D
-
Karate teaches just the opposite of all those things.
The karate punch is not an arm punch AT ALL. Full contact karate requires many matches before blackbelt is awarded. And holding the foot in the air is wrong.
In mixed standup competition Kyokushin fighters tend to dominate pure kickboxers (see Andy Hug and Lebanner).
Who are all these karate fighters that are being dominated?
Name some names?
Andy Hug - K-1 champion
Lebanner - top rank K-1
Bas Rutten - UFC champ, pancrase champ....
Gerard Gordeau - made it to finals before being defeated by Graci (UFC 1)
When you can do this, you will understand the value of years training, and the perfection of technique.
&mode=related&search=
Andy Hug was amazing. It's a shame he had to die so young. Would've been interesting seeing what he could've done for another 6+ years.
-
cheeky bastard! stealing my Avatar! ;D
She's mine! :P
-
someone you should watch is Sensei Elwyn Hall. He is a Shotokan expert, and one of a handful of men to beat the legendary Sensei Frank Brennan in Kumite. Hes unreal, his striking was hard, accurate and dominating to say the least! He may have been an excellent MMA fighter, certainly in K-1. I think someone made a post about him on here not long ago
Alexxx - good to see you have a great taste in women anyway! ;D
-
James West was the baddest. He could beat up a bunch of guys but always lost when he fought one on one. I loved that show
-
well, i know it is mostly due to his immense size but Semmy Schildt has won the K-1 world title for the 2nd time - hes a Seidokaikan Karate practicioner. Now i dont really rate him as a top fighter but a 2* WGP champion should be treated with the respect he deserves
-
Bruce Lee probably could take most guys on the street with no problem. Whether he was really good compared to top standup fighters just in his weight class (I'm always talking standup here) was never proven. I can't name anyone of note Bruce Lee fought for real. I don't mean sparring. He never fought any well known karate fighters or boxers if any at all. That 'intercepting fist' technique would only be effective (in theory) if the practitioner is as fast as he is. I think Bruce Lee was incredibly talented, but he never proved his assumed ability. Why wouldn't he?
If he felt himself to be above showing off, he wouldn't be making movies. He's certainly not the quiet reserved martial artist.
I think Bruce deserves respect for promoting martial arts better than any other fighter. He certainly popularised it. At the time, martial arts were still a bit obscure to the average person. People thought of martial arts and the orient as something semi-mystical and I think that was part of the reason all this hype built around Bruce Lee. He was seen as possessing some kind of magic to the uninformed. I think the driving force behind Bruce Lee was his perception that asians are treated bad or depicted bad in western cinema. He was secretly resentful, and somewhat envious of western fighters. In otherwords, he had a chip on his shoulder.
Karate as a standup art is PROVEN effective - provided you take a full-contact art like Kyokushin. A blackbelt will receive numerous injuries in full contact karate - sometimes severe. They don't revert to a boxing style in the ring ever. It is not tought in Karate that you walk like a robot. Stances are merely the most powerful position from which you launch certain attacks. Stances are to practice the kick, punch, elbow, headbutt, knee etc. so that form is good, strong, and accurate. Sparring teaches movement.
You don't step like that. That's a misconception. The actual ring movement is like this:
&mode=related&search=
Before blackbelt is obtained (after years of training) you must fight many full force matches. That's not true of every style, but it's true of Oyama karate and many other styles. Conditioning is never neglected.
Karate attacks include elbow strikes, knees strikes, headbutts, punches (straight, backfist, jab), throat strikes, kicks (front, axe, crescent, roundhouse, thigh kick, back kick, side kick), and in some styles judo throws.
-
Wikipedia:
In 1964, Lee was challenged by Wong Jack Man, a practitioner of Northern Shaolin. Lee claimed that, after arriving in San Francisco, his theories about martial arts and his teaching of "secret" Chinese martial arts to non-Asian students gave him enemies in the martial arts community. In contrast, Wong stated that he requested a bout with Lee as a result of Lee's open challenge during a demonstration at a Chinatown theater; Lee had claimed to be able to defeat any martial artist in San Francisco, according to Wong.[6] The two fought in December, 1964, at a kung fu school in Oakland, California. Lee and Wong provided significantly different accounts of the private bout[7], which was not filmed. Afterwards, Lee stated in an interview, without naming Wong as the loser, that he had defeated an unnamed challenger. In response, Wong wrote his description of the fight as well as an invitation to Lee for a public match, which was printed on the front page of Chinese Pacific Weekly, a Chinese-language newspaper in San Francisco. Lee did not fight Wong again.
-
Wikipedia:
Wong didnt' come out with his side of the story until after Bruce Lee had passed. James Lee, Howard Jackson, who still resided in the bay area would have made sure Bruce had heard about it if Wong would have said otherwise. The point of the fight was to prevent Lee from teaching foreigners gung fu. He still taught foreigners. You do the math.
-
That's not what it says in Wikipedia. It says he was challenged publically while they were alive.
Do you have another source?
-
That's not what it says in Wikipedia. It says he was challenged publically while they were alive.
Do you have another source?
Howard Jackson, Linda Lee Caldwell, Al Dacoscos. (Sifu Al is in Hawaii, he formed a system known as Won Hop Kun Do, an offshoot of Kajukembo. His son Marc is an action movie star who appeared opposite of Jet Li in "Cradle to the Grave.":) All of them were present at the fight, as was James Yim Lee, but he died. The point of the original fight was for Lee to stop teaching foreingers. Not only did he continue, he opened another school in Chinatown in LA which Dan Inosanto ran.
-
I understand the point of the fight...
Wiki mentions both sides of the story but it doesn't say he placed the add inviting Lee to a public match after he died...probably because it wouldn't make any sense to invite Bruce Lee to a public fight in a newspaper after he died. Sounds rediculous.
It says he placed a public add in the newspapers inviting Lee to a public match since the winner was disputed. The invitation went unanswered.
-
I understand the point of the fight...
Wiki mentions both sides of the story but it doesn't say he placed the add inviting Lee to a public match after he died...probably because it wouldn't make any sense to invite Bruce Lee to a public fight in a newspaper after he died. Sounds rediculous.
It says he placed a public add in the newspapers inviting Lee to a public match since the winner was disputed. The invitation went unanswered.
Soon after the fight, Bruce was showcased at Ed Parkers event in Long Beach. He moved to LA, got on the Green Hornet and the rest is history. To this day, Wong supporters chime that Wong won. Even with all the people who corrected him in "Fighting Stars" (forerunner to Black Belt), he and his crew still maintain he won. By all accounts, Bruce would stop hit, straight blast (jik jeung chui) and Wong would turn around and run away. Bruce had to abandon his straight blast to tackle Wong, mount him and hit him in the face until he gave up.
After this fight, Bruce started investigating other arts, and working on his conditioning. We saw less and less of Wing Chun, choy li fut, etc, and more boxing, wrestling, judo. Not as exciting as what was represented in "Dragon" but meaningful, nonetheless.
-
Howard Jackson, Linda Lee Caldwell, Al Dacoscos. (Sifu Al is in Hawaii, he formed a system known as Won Hop Kun Do, an offshoot of Kajukembo. His son Marc is an action movie star who appeared opposite of Jet Li in "Cradle to the Grave.":) All of them were present at the fight, as was James Yim Lee, but he died. The point of the original fight was for Lee to stop teaching foreingers. Not only did he continue, he opened another school in Chinatown in LA which Dan Inosanto ran.
God Howard Jackson is one of the guys I forgot from that photo. Man I can't believe I forgot him. Howard is or was Chuck Norris bodyguard cause I didn;t want to do it. Chuck asked me and the same night called me back to say he didn't feel it would be good for me. He hired Howard. They went to the Philipines to make a movie and Howard met his wife there. I haven't seen him in 15 years or so. Really cool guy. I didn't realize he was such a great fighter.
-
"Just prior to his death, he was quoted as saying a man with 1 years boxing experience and some wrestling would beat 100% of the black belts out there. (This didn't make him popular with the McDojo school owners at the time since he was the hottest thing out). So there it is."
this might just be the most poignant point of the whole thread. if there is one thing i admire most about lee is that he was honest to himself which is probably the greatest trait a fighter or even a man can have.
he is exactly right because he knew that real fighting was a very difficult thing to learn because it's not just whether you can throw a perfect left hook or a right roundhouse kick in a controlled setting. can you do it under pressure? can you set it up with timing and distance whilst your equally skilled opponent is reading you like a book? can you do it after you've been cracked so hard on your liver or kidneys that you can't even feel your legs anymore? can you do it so as you don't get countered? will you be open if it doesn't land? i could spend the next 3 pages doing this and we're only talking about one strike. i haven't even approached combinations/defence/shooting/grappling/sprawling, etc, etc.
these are the things we have ZERO evidence about lee. i have asked for one person to tell me WHO lee has fought and i've received some bullshit about lee not wanting to bother with a light strike karate tournament. yes i understand that, but what was stopping him entering a bare knuckle or boxing match. there were plenty of sanctioned fights and underground fights around in his day. he didn't enter any of them.
why? because he knew he would get owned and exposed in front of everyone. his mythical status would have been destroyed and the contrived american legend would have crumbled right there. a bit like seeing prime davey crocket in the flesh getting the absolute shit kicked out of him by a baby bear. ;D
now, if lee were still alive and you asked him this HONESTLY eye to eye, i believe that he would have admitted it and, seriously, how could anyone blame him? the guy made millions from the ignorance and naivety of the masses who at the end of the day wouldn't know/care about the first thing about REAL fighting and simply wish to be entertained. a myth/legend inspires stupidity wonder and creates a buzz of excitement and stories to tell.
people, the title of this thread is 'Re: Bruce Lee the greatest fighter that ever lived?'
note the 'greatest fighter' part and the ? mark.
that right there is the discussion point, not who is a great martial artist or who looked the best, had the most nut huggers or, for christ's sake, who could AVOID hurting someone the best.
there is absolutely ZERO proof that lee was even A great fighter, never mind 'greatest'. ANYONE who states that lee was the greatest fighter or one of, i KNOW, is talking straight from the rectum.
right on................... he was more of a myth (good publicity for movies)
bruce lee never won any fight, good philosophy, that's about it!!!