Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: slaveboy1980 on February 07, 2007, 05:12:08 PM
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getbiggers what do you think about training splits where you work a muscle once a week? (directly)
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getbiggers what do you think about training splits where you work a muscle once a week? (directly)
I train this way.
Mon - Chest - 25 sets 10 - 12 reps
Tues - Bi, Tri , Forearm - 40 sets 10 - 12 reps
Wens - Back - 30 sets 12 - 15 reps ( besides d lifts 8 - 10)
Thurs - Calves , shoulders 40 sets 10 - 15 reps
Fri - Quads hams - 30 sets 12 - 20 reps
Sat - off
Sun - off
I dont buy into that rest all day shit( no offense to those who do). I like to train with higher volume.
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back to the topic. what do you guys think?
I work each muscle group 3 times a month....basically a 4 day split spread over 10 days, if I have time I do cardio on the other days.
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I train this way.
Mon - Chest - 5 sets 10 - 12 reps
Tues - Bi, Tri , Forearm - 8 sets 10 - 12 reps
Wens - Back - 6 sets 12 - 15 reps ( besides d lifts 8 - 10)
wens off
Thurs - Calves abs - 8 sets crunches (100) 8 - 20 reps for calves
Fri - Quads hams - 6 sets 12 - 20 reps
Sat - off
repeat
I dont buy into that rest all day shit( no offense to those who do), I train high volume.
::) ::) ::) ROFL
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::) ::) ::) ROFL
I dont like the low volume stuff. I trained that way, and it did not work out for me. There was a bunch of typos in the original post I had not fixed until after you qouted it. You have a problem darth vador?
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I train this way.
Mon - Chest - 5 sets 10 - 12 reps
Tues - Bi, Tri , Forearm - 8 sets 10 - 12 reps
Wens - Back - 6 sets 12 - 15 reps ( besides d lifts 8 - 10)
wens off
Thurs - Calves abs - 8 sets 8 - 20 reps for calves crunches (100)
Fri - Quads hams - 6 sets 12 - 20 reps
Sat - off
repeat
I dont buy into that rest all day shit( no offense to those who do), I train high volume.
no shoulders? and going by the sets it doesnt look like high volume?
;D you rest and workout on wed ...good one bro. you stretch time like its lime.
all you newbies try 88s routine its magic!! PURE MAGIC.
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I forgot to add shoulders
sample
flat bench
5 sets of 12 reps
Decline
5 sets of 12 reps
Incline db
5 sets of 10 reps
Fly ( drop set)
5 sets of 12 reps
pullover
5 sets of 12 reps
Finish off with some crossovers, if I feel like it.
I dont see many people training like that today. Most are doing big weight for less sets. Not natural guys anyway. I train 5 days a week. Obv the post had a typo I had not fixed yet ::) I forgot you where a gimmick, carry on...
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I forgot to add shoulders
sample
flat bench
5 sets of 12 reps
Decline
5 sets of 12 reps
Incline db
5 sets of 10 reps
Fly ( drop set)
5 sets of 12 reps
pullover
5 sets of 12 reps
Finish off with some crossovers, if I feel like it.
I dont see many people training like that today. Most are doing big weight for less sets. Not natural guys anyway. I train 5 days a week. Obv the post had a typo I had not fixed yet ::) I forgot you where a gimmick, carry on...
Im confused, so do you do 5 sets per bodypart or 25?all your post are contradicting each other.
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I forgot to add shoulders
sample
flat bench
5 sets of 12 reps
Decline
5 sets of 12 reps
Incline db
5 sets of 10 reps
Fly ( drop set)
5 sets of 12 reps
pullover
5 sets of 12 reps
Finish off with some crossovers, if I feel like it.
I dont see many people training like that today. Most are doing big weight for less sets. Not natural guys anyway. I train 5 days a week. Obv the post had a typo I had not fixed yet ::) I forgot you where a gimmick, carry on...
i favour high volume too....5 days a week one body part per day right now.
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i favour high volume too....5 days a week one body part per day right now.
I screwed up . I did not notice until after the post had been quoted. I meant 25 sets, 40 sets etc etc. I just fixed it. I was typing while not paying attention, my b.
Monster, studious posting.
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Im confused, so do you do 5 sets per bodypart or 25?all your post are contradicting each other.
I just edited it. I was not thinking. I meant 25 sets, 40 sets etc etc. My b.
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Mon---chest 25 sets..varying reps...calves
Tues---back forearms
Weds--quads/hams/calves--
Thurs--shoulders traps
Fri--biceps triceps
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getbiggers what do you think about training splits where you work a muscle once a week? (directly)
volume is inversely proportional to recovery
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so more volume equals the need for greater recovery
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so more volume equals the need for greater recovery
No. Intensity equals the need for greater recovery.
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getbiggers what do you think about training splits where you work a muscle once a week? (directly)
I thought that was pretty much the standard frequency for training that everyone does. Who does it more/less?
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No. Intensity equals the need for greater recovery.
Intensity and volume= the need for greater recovery.
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getbiggers what do you think about training splits where you work a muscle once a week? (directly)
Yeah it's great.................if your lazy and don't want to train!
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Yeah it's great.................if your lazy and don't want to train!
twice a week would involve weight training every day with no off days, and you'd be trying to work muscles you still had doms in and aren't even repaired/rebuilt from your last workout. Unless you're taking a shitload of gear and eating 4000 calories a day you'd be massively overtraining.
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Any naturals here who've trained twice a week before but chose to stick to once a week... or vice verca? Speak.
I do twice a week, but have heard once a week is enough.
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This is my split and I am great.
1 Chest, front delts
2 Back,traps,side+rear delts
3 OFF
4 Arms
5 legs
6 OFF
It's like this Hit your torso, take a day off, Hit your limbs, take a day off.
It also does two other good things. You don't overtrain your delts by giving them their own day.
And you keep the blood flow localized during your workout.
Also notice the days with the biggest workload are followed by an off day.
It is genius in it's simple beauty and I should charge for that shit.
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This is my split and I am great.
1 Chest, front delts
2 Back,traps,side+rear delts
3 OFF
4 Arms
5 legs
6 OFF
It's like this Hit your torso, take a day off, Hit your limbs, take a day off.
It also does two other good things. You don't overtrain your delts by giving them their own day.
And you keep the blood flow localized during your workout.
Also notice the days with the biggest workload are followed by an off day.
It is genius in it's simple beauty and I should charge for that shit.
Tom Platz already did charge for it... It is his split from way back...
good one though doesn't wear out your shoulders like so many others.
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with or without drugs, it's 2on 1 off, chest+bis, back, shoulders, legs....3 times a week it's abs and calves....I don't train tris and front delts.
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If you adjust intensity you can train a muscle multiple times a week. But the higher the intensity the more time you need to recover, the lower, the less time you need. The mistake that's commonly made is the fact that people think that they're training hard enough by getting multiple times to the gym and train the muscle multiple times but the fact is that they don't make any gains.
Training 6 times a week, working out the same muscle at least twice a week has got his advantages but isn't very effective in terms of gaining mass, in the contrary.
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Most of the guys i think of as huge worked each muscle 2-3 times a week. Coleman, Oliva, Draper, Schwarzenegger, Scott, etc. 2 days on, 1 off, or a 2 or 3 day split, etc.
As far as the overtraining concept, the idea that this will overtax the CNS is just a theory, one born of HIT that few believe in by the way. The government and other similar sources have recently revised their exercise guidelines upwards, to more exercise on a daily basis, because of a believe that the body not only can handle it but benefits from it.
Intensity with moderate sets will not tax the CNS, i've done it for decades. Volume would be wearing, especially with any degree of intensity, because you're essentially doing the equivalent of marathon running. Wearing down the system with endurance work.
Once a week works for some but in each case i wonder what potential they've left on the table using it. Some believe as i do that after 3 days between workouts per muscle you're essentially sliding backwards due to disuse.
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Yeah it's great.................if your lazy and don't want to train!
You weren't supposed to mention that. The theories about taxing the muscle and CNS sound a lot better. ;D
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I work each muscle group 3 times a month....basically a 4 day split spread over 10 days, if I have time I do cardio on the other days.
3 times a month? ???
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Intensity and volume= the need for greater recovery.
Yup. If there's any justification for only once a week it would be due to a combination of this. Personally i think it's not enough to realize full potential. Intensity over short workouts allows more frequent training. Volume without intensity seems pointless.
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No. Intensity equals the need for greater recovery.
dohhhhh... ;D intensity and volume together dictate recovery time.
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Most of the guys i think of as huge worked each muscle 2-3 times a week. Coleman, Oliva, Draper, Schwarzenegger, Scott, etc. 2 days on, 1 off, or a 2 or 3 day split, etc.
As far as the overtraining concept, the idea that this will overtax the CNS is just a theory, one born of HIT that few believe in by the way. The government and other similar sources have recently revised their exercise guidelines upwards, to more exercise on a daily basis, because of a believe that the body not only can handle it but benefits from it.
Intensity with moderate sets will not tax the CNS, i've done it for decades. Volume would be wearing, especially with any degree of intensity, because you're essentially doing the equivalent of marathon running. Wearing down the system with endurance work.
Once a week works for some but in each case i wonder what potential they've left on the table using it. Some believe as i do that after 3 days between workouts per muscle you're essentially sliding backwards due to disuse.
so you favour for example splits such as: 1. chest/back/shoulders 2. arms 3. legs. 4 rest. repeat?
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so you favour for example splits such as: 1. chest/back/shoulders 2. arms 3. legs. 4 rest. repeat?
Yes, or a two day split and either repeating or resting on day 3. I know though that some gain from once a week; i wonder whether they've tried twice a week and compared.
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pumpster can you write down your routine for us, ive tried a 2 times a week routine but my body shut down, i think i tried to many exercises and i was in the gym for about 90 minutes keeping breaks to 30-45 seconds. although by the time i was done i didnt need to do any cardio
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Once Some believe as i do that after 3 days between workouts per muscle you're essentially sliding backwards due to disuse.
The muscle does get worked within 3-4 days indirectly... it's not like you're putting the muscle into total disuse between directly hitting it.
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pumpster can you write down your routine for us, ive tried a 2 times a week routine but my body shut down, i think i tried to many exercises and i was in the gym for about 90 minutes keeping breaks to 30-45 seconds. although by the time i was done i didnt need to do any cardio
I've used either a 2-day split followed by 1 day off and repeat, or the same thing taking two days off after the second cycle, 2 day split then repeat with no rest until the 7th day, 3-day split then repeat again then rest a day, etc. Usually working the muscle three times a week; even twice seems a little too easy. Easier to do three times a week after going to moderate volume.
I wouldn't say try one particular routine is best, instead try each for a month or two then decide which works better.
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Tom Platz already did charge for it... It is his split from way back...
good one though doesn't wear out your shoulders like so many others.
Really?
I guess we think alike training wise because I didn't cop that from anyone.
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Most of the guys i think of as huge worked each muscle 2-3 times a week. Coleman, Oliva, Draper, Schwarzenegger, Scott, etc. 2 days on, 1 off, or a 2 or 3 day split, etc.
As far as the overtraining concept, the idea that this will overtax the CNS is just a theory, one born of HIT that few believe in by the way. The government and other similar sources have recently revised their exercise guidelines upwards, to more exercise on a daily basis, because of a believe that the body not only can handle it but benefits from it.
Intensity with moderate sets will not tax the CNS, i've done it for decades. Volume would be wearing, especially with any degree of intensity, because you're essentially doing the equivalent of marathon running. Wearing down the system with endurance work.
Once a week works for some but in each case i wonder what potential they've left on the table using it. Some believe as i do that after 3 days between workouts per muscle you're essentially sliding backwards due to disuse.
Come on,
let's not use these guys as examples. They're pro's who have plenty of time to rest and more important a personal drugstore. There are also other sports were athletes train multiple times a day, morning cardio/strength, evening technique, cyclers cycle daily 2 to 3 hours, powerlifters lift all day.
but that's got jack-shit to do with body-building.
Biggest challenge in BB is diet, if you're low in fat, you will look big. The other challenge is time, when are you able to train, you can't work 5/6 days a week, being away for almost 10 hours, take a detour to the gym, come home eat some more and sleep, impossible for over 99% of the people.
The last challenge is the actual weight-lifting. What kind of program will serve the needs.
If you have plenty of time, fe a student, no job or no social live, working out a muscle multiple times a week can be beneficial, a routine like push/pull/legs, more extreme upper-body/lower body. The biggest disadvantage is that you train a different type of musclefiber. Instead of targeting the potential fiber IIb, which has a bigger grow-potention you start targeting IIa and there will be a small transition of those two on the long run. The percentage of IIa will grow and IIB will decrease.
That's not neccessarly a bad thing, it's even recommended, but using such a routine on the long run does not serve the goal for a lot off people.
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I agree with DKI, that you can't use Arnold, Coleman, Scott, etc as prime examples of what may or may not be best for every one. That's like comparing a college football team with the NFL (or the CFL with the superior NFL). Those named guy's are some of the legendary top men in BB'ing. With the chemical engineering that also goes with these top guy's, odds are 99% that any whacked out way they train, they do can build huge size.
CNS abuse (overtraining ) is a fact and not something that just emerged from a negative reaction from HIT. Why anyone could not understand that defies logic. Unless their new to BB'ing.
Those unnamed government and other sources(?), base any exercise program on the average male. Who does next to nothing in the way of exercise. This does not apply to BB'ers who train and do cardio well beyond what the government, or average man, ever dreamed of. You do not wear down the system with just endurance work alone. Too much workload and muscle tension can also accomplish this.
The human body will slowly revert back to a untrained state, with-in the mean average of 10 to 12 days. Any coach or trainer will tell you that. After 3 days of non training, the body will take the opportunity to recover and rebuild it's self. It will not begin to slide backwards due to disuse. A better term might be under use. Good Luck.
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Come on,
let's not use these guys as examples. They're pro's who have plenty of time to rest and more important a personal drugstore. There are also other sports were athletes train multiple times a day, morning cardio/strength, evening technique, cyclers cycle daily 2 to 3 hours, powerlifters lift all day.
but that's got jack-shit to do with body-building.
Biggest challenge in BB is diet, if you're low in fat, you will look big. The other challenge is time, when are you able to train, you can't work 5/6 days a week, being away for almost 10 hours, take a detour to the gym, come home eat some more and sleep, impossible for over 99% of the people.
The last challenge is the actual weight-lifting. What kind of program will serve the needs.
If you have plenty of time, fe a student, no job or no social live, working out a muscle multiple times a week can be beneficial, a routine like push/pull/legs, more extreme upper-body/lower body. The biggest disadvantage is that you train a different type of musclefiber. Instead of targeting the potential fiber IIb, which has a bigger grow-potention you start targeting IIa and there will be a small transition of those two on the long run. The percentage of IIa will grow and IIB will decrease.
That's not neccessarly a bad thing, it's even recommended, but using such a routine on the long run does not serve the goal for a lot off people.
BS on all counts. The usual stock excuse that ascribes everything to drugs, as simplistic as it is wrong. Training fundamentals don't suddenly all change with or without drugs.
Diet is only part of it. Train improperly and there will be nothing, period.
As far as the full-time work theory, ask Sergio about working for the police department and working out. ;D ;D
Re: the guessing on work schedules, Coleman says his workouts last on average about an hour. So much for that one. ;D
Of course I can use those guys as examples-they did the routines and the routines worked.
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I agree with DKI, that you can't use Arnold, Coleman, Scott, etc as prime examples of what may or may not be best for every one. That's like comparing a college football team with the NFL (or the CFL with the superior NFL). Those named guy's are some of the legendary top men in BB'ing. With the chemical engineering that also goes with these top guy's, odds are 99% that any whacked out way they train, they do can build huge size.
CNS abuse (overtraining ) is a fact and not something that just emerged from a negative reaction from HIT. Why anyone could not understand that defies logic. Unless their new to BB'ing.
Those unnamed government and other sources(?), base any exercise program on the average male. Who does next to nothing in the way of exercise. This does not apply to BB'ers who train and do cardio well beyond what the government, or average man, ever dreamed of. You do not wear down the system with just endurance work alone. Too much workload and muscle tension can also accomplish this.
The human body will slowly revert back to a untrained state, with-in the mean average of 10 to 12 days. Any coach or trainer will tell you that. After 3 days of non training, the body will take the opportunity to recover and rebuild it's self. It will not begin to slide backwards due to disuse. A better term might be under use. Good Luck.
Long-winded, filled with the usual dime-store speculation. Larry Scott had very little to do with the "chemical engineering" claimed in this latest round of guesses. Most of the guys i've mentioned were on basic fairly simple stacks, not "chemical engineering" haahahahhaha.
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I know though that some gain from once a week; i wonder whether they've tried twice a week and compared.
I have been wondering about this myself lately. I read routine outlines from "back in the day" and it appears the norm back then was 2x/week for each bodypart with fairly high volume.
It is interesting to me that the major trend today is much less volume. It seems very few people advocate much more than a one hour long workout nowdays. Was everyone dead wrong in years past. Multiple hour workout sessions, split training sessions, and hitting a bodypart 2x/week seemed to work well for many at one point in time. Now these things are taboo.
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I have been wondering about this myself lately. I read routine outlines from "back in the day" and it appears the norm back then was 2x/week for each bodypart with fairly high volume.
It is interesting to me that the major trend today is much less volume. It seems very few people advocate much more than a one hour long workout nowdays. Was everyone dead wrong in years past. Multiple hour workout sessions, split training sessions, and hitting a bodypart 2x/week seemed to work well for many at one point in time. Now these things are taboo.
yeah real D bol was a hell of a drug dude!
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yeah real D bol was a hell of a drug dude!
:D
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Guys way back used to train every bodypart three times per week while being clean. I think it is good to switch it up everymonth and see what works for you.
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Right now training in a high intensity manor im not sure if more than once a week per body part would work+ i have rugby tuesday,thursday and saturday (season ends in few weeks).
davie
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I try and give each muscle group it's own day and hit each muscle group once a week.
I have read about that loss of muscle after 3 days idea but I don't take it too mean after 3 days from your workout you will start losing muscle I view it more as once your muscle is fully rebuilt then it will start to lose muscle after 3 days, so after a workout it takes 2-3 days to recover imo and then if you want total rebuild even longer so it won't be for a couple weeks until you start losing any muscle in that muscle group as long as you maintain an adequate diet.
I like the once a week thing because you get to give each muscle group a full hard workout session that they deserve and have adequate recovery time. Most of your muscles, you will use as secondary muscle groups in other exercises throughout the week so they still are stimulated to a degree so no worry of disuse or breakdown imo.
You're going to build muscle outside of the gym not inside of it , so give your body the rest it needs.
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Why you should train each muscle group more than once a week
by Chad Waterbury
One of the new "rules" of weight training states you should hit each muscle group only about once per week. Sometime in the past, someone made this statement, referenced a few studies, and it soon became law. Perhaps you adopted this rule and applied it to your training. So let me ask you something: Did it work? Are you considerably bigger and stronger? No? Then maybe it's time to break a few "rules" and break out of that rut. Maybe it's time to (gasp!) train each muscle group more than once per week!
I feel my primary duty as a writer is to inform readers and help them think outside of the proverbial box. Therefore, I want you to clear your mind of any preconceived notions about training frequency and recovery. With any luck, this information could be the difference between extremely successful training and sub-par results for the rest of your lifting days.
The body is an amazingly adaptive machine. Its ultimate function is to adapt to the demands placed upon it. Whatever stress the body encounters will be overcome given the proper parameters (and as long as it doesn't kill you). For instance, your very first chest workout probably made you sore since the body wasn't accustomed to any tricep/pectoral/deltoid resistance training. After a short period of time training the chest once each week, soreness diminished to the point where you had to change the variables for soreness to reappear. In essence, you taught the body to adapt to training the chest once a week.
But what if instead of training the chest once each week, you started out by training it four times each week? Would progress come to a halt? Probably, if you continued to bombard your chest with the same parameters. But if you exposed your muscles to different demands throughout the week, results could be much more effective and rapid.
I don't know where all this talk about training each body part once per week came from. Alright, I do know where a lot of it came from, but why "HIT" upon something that most qualified strength coaches don't take seriously anyway? Therefore, I'll refrain from kicking a training philosophy that's already down. The point is, I've yet to read a single reble book on strength and conditioning that advocates training each body part only once a week. For example, Supertraining by Siff and Verkhoshansky, Science and Practice of Strength Training by Zsatsiorsky, and The Science of Sports Training by Kurz are all on my "must read" list, yet not one of them recommends training with such infrequency for optimum results.
Now, many of you are probably thinking I'm throwing you back to the 1970's mentality of weight training when Arnold and friends would annihilate each body part five or six times a week. No, I'm not. We all know that's not the most effective way to train. But I am saying that perhaps we've allowed the pendulum to swing too far in one direction when it comes to training frequency.
Back before anabolic steroids and protein powders, weight trainers were building impressive amounts of muscle and incredible levels of strength. Men such as Eugen Sandow, Arthur Saxon and Alan Calvert trained the muscular system many times each week. In my opinion, they were the lucky ones because they didn't have any preconceived notions about training frequency. Instead, they kept using methods as long as their performance continued to increase.
Back then, there weren't any books on the bestseller list touting a one-size-fits-all program for incredible results (as long as you used the author's products), nor were there any "Johnny Biceps" out there claiming they built their huge guns training them only once a week with super-slow concentration curls and tricep kickbacks (never mind the truckload of anabolics in their garage). Nope, these men just trained hard and, through trial and error, learned that training each muscle group more than once per week was the right way to go.
When I think back to my most dramatic gains over the years, a single consistent element comes to mind. It was only when I started working a muscle group more often that dramatic gains took place. For instance, while in high school I spent some time working at an apartment complex and one of my primary jobs was to carry mattresses up and down narrow stairways. I had to grab the edge of the mattresses with my fingers and lift it while walking staircases. My forearm size and strength increased more dramatically in the first month than it ever had on any training program. This took place while I was simultaneously performing heavy grip training in the gym.
After I graduated from college, I went from spending most of my time sitting during class to an internship at a gym where I had to spend most of the time on my feet. The first few weeks were brutal on my calves since they were only accustomed to being trained hard once every five days. Now they were required to do the same while simultaneously holding me on my feet for an extra 40 hours a week. Within the first month I put a full inch on my calves without changing any parameters of my weight training workouts!
Why did the calves and forearms grow? Because they had to adapt to the demands placed upon them. More importantly, the demands were substantially different than my higher-intensity resistance workout routine.
Adapt and Grow
The body is very smart. It doesn't want to increase your recovery rate or add muscle unless absolutely necessary. Therefore, you must make it understand the necessity by exposing it to more frequent training sessions. Remember reading those muscle building programs that advocated a few heavy workouts each week followed by a completely inactive lifestyle? You know, the "squat, drink milk and lay on the couch while living with your parents" program? That line of thinking was based on the false assumption that extra workouts would slow recovery. If anything, it kept recovery slower than an Ellington Darden rep scheme because it never created a need for the body to recover quicker! Don't forget this important point: You must create a need for improved recovery rates.
I know so many lifters who only feel satisfied if a workout causes soreness. Such a notion is absurd! Your primary goal should be to train the muscular system so that little or no soreness occurs. Why? Because soreness will only slow recovery.
Many of the so-called bodybuilding magazines recommend pre-fabricated programs based on a breakdown similar to the following:
Monday: Chest/Back
Tuesday: Off
Wednesday: Legs/Abs/Calves
Thursday: Off
Friday: Shoulders/Arms
Weekend: Off
The main problem with this type of program is it only demands the body to recover each muscle group by the following week. For the most dramatic gains to take place, you must train muscle groups more often to increase the recovery rate. Training each muscle group directly once each week won't increase the recovery rate beyond once-a-week training. How's increased recovery accomplished? By forcing the body to work out more often! I know I may sound redundant, but I can't stress this fact enough.
Unfortunately, we do have a limited capacity for recovery. Therefore, the extra workouts must be intelligently planned. Initially, I wouldn't recommend adding in extra maximal training sessions. Instead, add in some light speed work such as the workouts described in my explosive training articles. Explosive, submaximal training places a different type of stress on the nervous and muscular system and can aid recovery. The increased blood flow will help nutrient transfer take place since the muscles will be moving a lighter load more quickly. Also, you should add some endurance work for lagging muscle groups as described in my 100 Reps to Bigger Muscles article.
It should be clear to you that I'm not in favor of traditional periodization methods that focus exclusively on building only one type of strength at a time. For instance, a traditional Western macrocycle (up to six weeks) might concentrate solely on increasing hypertrophy. You know what happens during these six weeks? Your maximal strength levels drop! How about your endurance? You guessed it, it'll drop too. Therefore, I always train multiple strength qualities simultaneously. Trust me, the body can take it and your overall strength will soar.
Therefore, if you agree with my premise, you should restructure your weekly workout plan to something similar to the following:
Monday: Upper Body (Maximal Training)
Tuesday: Lower Body (Explosive Training)
Wednesday: Off
Thursday: Upper Body (Explosive Training)
Friday: Lower Body (Maximal Training)
Weekend: Off
This breakdown will allow at least two different sessions for each muscle group every week. What about soreness? Many self-proclaimed experts claim you shouldn't work any body part that's still sore. Even though I appreciate their reasoning, I think they're grossly underestimating the adaptability of the body. Your body will only increase recovery if you force it to work more frequently. Initially, you may still have residual soreness from the previous workout, but don't worry. Instead, work through it and the body will improve its recovery rate to the point where soreness will subside. And don't forget your endurance work because it'll dramatically reduce post-workout soreness almost immediately.
Make sure the exercises you perform for the second workout are different than the previous workout. Just adding a copy of your first workout would be a bad idea and probably lead to burnout very quickly. For instance, you could perform a maximal tricep workout similar to the following:
Monday (maximal training day)
Exercise: Barbell Skull Crushers
Load: 85% of 1RM
Sets: 5
Reps: 5
Rest: 120 seconds
Therefore, Thursday (explosive training day) should consist of a different tricep movement and lifting parameters, such as:
Exercise: Explosive, Close Grip Push-ups
Load: Bodyweight
Sets: 8-12
Reps: 3-4
Rest: 60 seconds
Generally speaking, use heavy, low reps on your maximal training day and light, explosive movements on explosive day. For example, as part of your chest workout, perform heavy bench presses on maximal day (6 sets of 3 reps) on Monday. On Thursday, perform my explosive push-up routine (8-12 sets of 3-4 reps). See my article here for details. You could also use my "100 Reps" program on off days if you really want to bring up the chest.
To further clarify, on explosive leg day (Tuesday), perform explosive box squats using 9 to 12 sets of 2-3 reps with 60 seconds between sets. (More info on explosive box squats here if you need it.) On maximal leg day (Friday), perform heavy, low rep squats, 6 sets of 3 reps for example. Train through any initial soreness and soon that won't be a problem. And if you really want to bring the legs up, on "off" days use the "100 Reps" program.
Conclusion
As a side note, WWF superstar and ex-Olympic wrestler, Kurt Angle, even lifts weights on the same day as his wrestling matches to help facilitate recovery. He uses only light, high-repetition training however on these days. Obviously, this guy isn't lacking any muscle!
In summary, the body can handle more than you think it can. Drop the one muscle group per week routine and try something new to see for yourself. Train each muscle group twice per week, once using heavy, low rep training, and once later in the week using light, explosive movements. You'll increase recovery, challenge the body, and ultimately grow bigger and stronger. Doesn't sound too bad, does it?
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BS on all counts. The usual stock excuse that ascribes everything to drugs, as simplistic as it is wrong. Training fundamentals don't suddenly all change with or without drugs.
So you want to argue the fact that drugs enhances the recovery ??? I'll pass this one.
Diet is only part of it. Train improperly and there will be nothing, period.
And that's plain BS,
with a good diet you can achieve certain effects without any form off training. But that's another discussion.
The main point I try to make is the fact that if you want decent result you have to know what you're eating and what kind of effects the food has. To understand, and more important, to practise that knowledge takes a lot of time. Far more time than the bunch of exercises you perform. Also the fact that food keeps you busy all week compared tot the couple off hours in the gym makes a good diet more important.
As far as the full-time work theory, ask Sergio about working for the police department and working out. ;D ;D
Re: the guessing on work schedules, Coleman says his workouts last on average about an hour. So much for that one. ;D
Of course I can use those guys as examples-they did the routines and the routines worked.
Sergio beat up his wife and got shot by her, Coleman lived with his mum until he was 40 , married with a other monster and got back to his mum. Sergio acknowledge the use of certain gear. Coleman can deny a lot, but it's known that he had contact with Victor Conte.
And these people are your examples?
Let's take an ordinary clean student/employer who has enough time and money to train multiple times a week to achieve a certain physique.
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In reply to the article posted by Pumpster....
Do you believe everything you read?
The article hits on some key points, how the body is able to adapt to different stressors and by changing these stressors you make the greatest gains....but sadly that is the only useful idea in there.
Yes, if you start training a muscle 4 times a week, or are standing on your legs all day or using your forearms to help you move stuff they are going to grow. The body is unaccustomed to this, but sure in good time it will adjust like it adjusts too everything and growth will hault. Look at construction workers for example, they are on their feet upwards to 8 - 10 hours a day sometimes more. They lift heavy crap all day long but do you see many of them the size of a probodybuilder if even a good amateur, No. According to Mr. Waterbury's idea these men should be giant from the repeated stress put on the muscle but it just isn't so.
Like I said he makes a good point, hitting multiple muscle groups and modifying your program towards this will shock your muscle and cause growth but doing this for too long will halt your gains, overwork your body, and just add undo stress to your joints.
Your body can only absorb and utilize a certain amount of protein per day... there is no changing that (without the use of drugs). It takes time and the necessary nutrients available to repair the muscles and if you are training all the muscle groups multiple times what I like to call "overtraining" then you are not allowing your muscles to rebuild and wasting your time, energy, money, and most importantly halting what could be gains if not losing gains.
Changing the frequency of your workouts should be changed just like exercises and intensity and duration. Each time you change these factors your body will have to readjust and in a more practical sense "grow" to meet this change. You shouldn't lock in though and say 3-4 times a week and that's it forever that's what works, overdoing it and "overtraining" is just going to hurt your gains in the long run.
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In reply to the article posted by Pumpster....
Do you believe everything you read?
You must be dense to even think that. It was just one more perspective, who except you in your brilliance assumed that it was more than that? And it's not for you to tell us what is and isn't important in an article, everyone can decide for themselves what's worth gleaning, not you.
Why don't you try something more constructive like posting a different article instead of making silly incorrect accusations about me, it just hurts your credibility.
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So you want to argue the fact that drugs enhances the recovery ??? I'll pass this one. And that's plain BS,
with a good diet you can achieve certain effects without any form off training. But that's another discussion.
The main point I try to make is the fact that if you want decent result you have to know what you're eating and what kind of effects the food has. To understand, and more important, to practise that knowledge takes a lot of time. Far more time than the bunch of exercises you perform. Also the fact that food keeps you busy all week compared tot the couple off hours in the gym makes a good diet more important. Sergio beat up his wife and got shot by her, Coleman lived with his mum until he was 40 , married with a other monster and got back to his mum. Sergio acknowledge the use of certain gear. Coleman can deny a lot, but it's known that he had contact with Victor Conte.
And these people are your examples?
Let's take an ordinary clean student/employer who has enough time and money to train multiple times a week to achieve a certain physique.
You're the one making silly blanket claims: "diet is most of the equation". Cut out the unprovable theories and it won't be so easy for me to blow em up. ;D Or that drugs change the entire training equation, another canned, widely used excuse that most who evoke it know precious little about. Be smarter and stop thinking in absolutes that you've read over and over again somewhere else.
You're going to inject Sergio's domestic situation into this, because you can't think of anything else?
hahahahah L-A-M-E you have nothing.
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the question i asked was meant to create a discussion.
it has. good.
working a muscle once a week works. so does 2 even sometimes 3 days a week.
if you have a half a mile to walk, and you have 10 years to do it, it doesnt matter if you run or walk you will reach the finish line in the end.
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the question i asked was meant to create a discussion.
it has. good.
working a muscle once a week works. so does 2 even sometimes 3 days a week.
The unanswered question really is whether one is more effective than the other. Trial and error's the only answer. ;)
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The unanswered question really is whether one is more effective than the other. Trial and error's the only answer. ;)
True. These things take alot of time and you must be paying attention or you'll probably forget what does and doesn't work.
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You're the one making silly blanket claims: "diet is most of the equation". Cut out the unprovable theories and it won't be so easy for me to blow em up. ;D
Keep out some stupidious theories and there still lot to learn,
fe the function of carbohydrates, protein and fat. Is fat bad and is there such thing as to much fat. Also finding out what the value is off certain products takes a hell of a time.
The mental aspect of changing eating-habits is much harder then lifting weights. Once you understand and practise that knowledge and you adapt new habits conform those basic principles you don't spend a lot of time to it. Or that drugs change the entire training equation, another canned, widely used excuse that most who evoke it know precious little about. Be smarter and stop thinking in absolutes that you've read over and over again somewhere else.
??? Explain yourself. A healthy man doesn't need drugs. A goal of 200+lbs with less than 10% is for over 75% of the (male) trainees reachable.
You're going to inject Sergio's domestic situation into this, because you can't think of anything else?
hahahahah L-A-M-E you have nothing.
Is it? I stated before that training more than 3 or 4 times a week isn't possible for a lot of people due to other obligations and most importaint is family.
Working + training a couple of hours a day (+ gear) = tension between husband and wife (partners/friends)
I may be sounding like dr phil, but spending some serious time at home with partner is more important than the gym. Especially if you have a partner that doesn't really care whether you look like an adonis or an ordinary husband. She already has to sacrifise a lot due to your own diet-regime. Training 6 times a week is therefor for the majority out of the question.
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getbiggers what do you think about training splits where you work a muscle once a week? (directly)
it's more a matter of what you do than how many times a week you do it.
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it's more a matter of what you do than how many times a week you do it.
true, make every gym session count, regardless of what training routine your use.
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it's more a matter of what you do than how many times a week you do it.
Can't agree with that. Frequency's just as important as anything else.
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Can't agree with that. Frequency's just as important as anything else.
yes and no. of course if you are working a muscle once a month for example then its not true
but working a muscle once a week has been proved to work..so if your a natural and you have worked out hard for 10 years with a once a week program its not like you will add dramatic amounts of muscle going to a higher frequency. higher freqeuncy as in 2-3 times per week may be a bit more effective (?) but you have to regulate intensity more carefully the more often you work a muscle. in the long run it doesnt matter..its not like working a muscle 2 times per week is twice as effective as working it once a week.
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yes and no. of course if you are working a muscle once a month for example then its not true
but working a muscle once a week has been proved to work..so if your a natural and you have worked out hard for 10 years with a once a week program its not like you will add dramatic amounts of muscle going to a higher frequency. higher freqeuncy as in 2-3 times per week may be a bit more effective (?) but you have to regulate intensity more carefully the more often you work a muscle. in the long run it doesnt matter..its not like working a muscle 2 times per week is twice as effective as working it once a week.
-Once a week's worked - for some! No one knows if it's as effective as 2-3 times a week. I suspect it's not; whether the difference is wide or moderate's moot to those who believe there's a difference. Coleman and others still work a muscle twice a week for growth, once a week for maintenance.
-Intensity doesn't suffer with higher frequency if the workouts are moderate in length. Recovery time requirements are very much up for debate.
-If it was this cut and dried, this thread wouldn't exist. Everyone would've trained with the same frequency for the last 60 or more years.
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-It's proved to work - for some!
-No one knows if it's as effective as 2-3 times a week. I suspect it's not. Intensity doesn't suffer with higher frequency if the workouts are moderate in length. Recovery time requirements are very much up for debate.
-If it was this cut and dried, this thread wouldn't exist. Everyone would've trained with the same frequency for the last 60 or more years. Coleman and others still believe in twice a week training for growth, once a week for maintenance.
once a week works for "everyone" who can add muscle. working a muscle 2-3 days a week may work better.
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once a week works for everyone who can add muscle. working a muscle 2-3 days a week may work better.
Add to that the fact that more frequent training may help with contest refining in ways that cardio won't.
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Add to that the fact that more frequent training may help with contest refining in ways that cardio won't.
i think in the long run if you workout consistently ;once a week per muscle or 2 times a week per muscle wont matter.
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i think in the long run if you workout consistently ;once a week per muscle or 2 times a week per muscle wont matter.
That's assuming maintenance for most of the long-run IMO. If that's not true, then higher frequency may help.
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That's assuming maintenance for most of the long-run IMO. If that's not true, then higher frequency may help.
i think once a week per muscle group certainly can be used to gain muscle..too many people are gaining muscle on such protocols to only limit it to maintainence training. but, working a muscle two times per week or 3 times per week may be better true.
also you have to consider genetic limit ..if its attainable in 2 years with 2 times per week and muscle and in 3 years with once per week for most people the one year difference wont matter that much and they should go with what they like the most. (last part is pure speculation)
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You get my PM pumpster??
davie
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If you guys think Arnold did 25sets per muscle 3 times a week YEAR ROUND you are crazy...
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If you guys think Arnold did 25sets per muscle 3 times a week YEAR ROUND you are crazy...
I've known what Arnold did since the early 70s. He went with twice a week per muscle off-season, thrice weekly pre-contest.
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I've known what Arnold did since the early 70s. He went with twice a week per muscle off-season, thrice weekly pre-contest.
Which is what it perscribes in the Encyclopedia.
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I've known what Arnold did since the early 70s. He went with twice a week per muscle off-season, thrice weekly pre-contest.
What's got that to do with john doe?
Cyclers cycle multiple times a week perform in the morning strength-traing and cycle 2 to 3 hours in the evening. Same for swimmers, soccer-players, rugby-players and even bodybuilders. They train two to three times a day. These are proffessionals.
Until this moment you have failed to explain the benefits of training a muscle multiple times a week. There are only two that I can come up with,
first, targeting a other type of muscle fiber,
second, force an overtraining to a certain degree.
You're free to finish the list. And you can't claim that it's even better to train that much, there are some benefits, but there's not much to gain if you keep the routine most of the year. Simple routines were you workout the muscle once a week have proven themselves over and over and over. And please don't come up again with pro-bodybuilders that train multiple times a week. If you don't work, eat healthy, sleep plenty and suffer from no stress you can train two or three times a day what brings you to a total of over 18. Focus on a couple of exercises and go home again.
Unfortunately that's not possible for most of us.
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What's got that to do with john doe?
Cyclers cycle multiple times a week perform in the morning strength-traing and cycle 2 to 3 hours in the evening. Same for swimmers, soccer-players, rugby-players and even bodybuilders. They train two to three times a day. These are proffessionals.
Until this moment you have failed to explain the benefits of training a muscle multiple times a week. There are only two that I can come up with,
first, targeting a other type of muscle fiber,
second, force an overtraining to a certain degree.
You're free to finish the list. And you can't claim that it's even better to train that much, there are some benefits, but there's not much to gain if you keep the routine most of the year. Simple routines were you workout the muscle once a week have proven themselves over and over and over. And please don't come up again with pro-bodybuilders that train multiple times a week. If you don't work, eat healthy, sleep plenty and suffer from no stress you can train two or three times a day what brings you to a total of over 18. Focus on a couple of exercises and go home again.
Unfortunately that's not possible for most of us.
Very wordy yet not particularly coherent. Rhetoric mainly for the sake of arguing. I have in fact made a case with my previous posts. Nothing more to add. Why would i want to continue this further with a belligerent troll whose agenda has more to do with arguing than with content? There's nothing compelling in your arguments, in fact i don't even agree with the assumptions. ;D
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Agree with most of what DKI said. I made some very good gains in strength and development working twice a day, three/four times a week during off season. That also include running and some light sport drills two or three times a week. Most athletes train this way and make outstanding improvement. The old Eastern Block lifters trained, at times, 3 to 4 times a day, just about every day, it had been reported. They were tops in Olympic lifting. Russia adopted that training idea later on.
To the other extreme, working a single muscle group only once a week has proven it's value for a lot of BB'ers. Usually 12 to 18 sets total a muscle group. Some outstanding can be had for some.There are no absolutes in BB'ing. What works for one may be self destroying for another. Give any training method a fair shot and see what happens.
That post by Waterbury, offered by The Pumpster, is just one man's version on training. Take it for what it's worth to your needs. T-nation does present a lot of different training/diet ideas, some old ideas, some new ideas. It's like throwing mud against a wall to see what sticks. Good Luck.
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Good that they have you here pumpster. Higher frequency is definately better than 'once every 7 days'
However the three (or 4!) times a week is a little TOO as well, what I've found best is 2x per 8 days (on an a-b split) or 2 times/week.
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I say go entirly by feel, unless your getting ready for a show due to your diet its easy to overtrain. I've trained 8 days in a row then didn't sleep as good one night so i took the day off. I say only take an off day when you need to. Why not hit back if your feeling fine? you might have an awesome workout, and you wouldn't get that if you insisted that today is your "offday"
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Pumpster you act like frequency is a must you have to train frequently always...
Frequency is just another variance to shock your muscles
According to the FIT principle, which is a formula that gives individuals guidelines to follow to build a good fitness program.
F: stands for frequency, how often a person exercises,
I: stands for intensity, how hard a person exercises,
T: stands for time, how long a person exercises.
Manipulating these three things is how you are going to improve your gains, If you start training really intensly huge volume workouts that take a lot of time your going to need more time to recover and less frequency. If your training more at a higher frequency you probably have to train less intensely. I'm not saying you can't lift those big heavy weights when your doing more frequency just saying it probably isn't wise to do 20 sets you will overtrain.
Frequency is just another factor to modify your workouts and shock the body, end of story.
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Pumpster you act like frequency is a must you have to train frequently always...
Frequency is just another variance to shock your muscles
According to the FIT principle, which is a formula that gives individuals guidelines to follow to build a good fitness program.
F: stands for frequency, how often a person exercises,
I: stands for intensity, how hard a person exercises,
T: stands for time, how long a person exercises.
Manipulating these three things is how you are going to improve your gains, If you start training really intensly huge volume workouts that take a lot of time your going to need more time to recover and less frequency. If your training more at a higher frequency you probably have to train less intensely. I'm not saying you can't lift those big heavy weights when your doing more frequency just saying it probably isn't wise to do 20 sets you will overtrain.
Frequency is just another factor to modify your workouts and shock the body, end of story.
I basically said all of that in earlier posts.
One thing they neglected to mention however, was that those factors likely don't deserve equal weightings. I don't think they do, I mentioned that long workouts are basically counter-productive unless you want to run marathons. Frequency & intensity deserve higher weightings, from my experience.
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Yea I could see that point, with the release of cortisol a catabolic hormone after prolonged stress, makes sense. Time can also be manipulated as the time between sets or the second count of eccentric and concentric contraction but that could also go under the category of intensity I suppose.
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Yea I could see that point, with the release of cortisol a catabolic hormone after prolonged stress, makes sense. Time can also be manipulated as the time between sets or the second count of eccentric and concentric contraction but that could also go under the category of intensity I suppose.
Actually time is just as important if it's in terms of time between sets, not duration of workout.
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So pumpster wen u say that an individual would work their muscles better working them 2/3 times a week, is this for the guy who uses average set numbers,10 - 15 per body part??
I am just wandering as i would guess high volume trainers who insist on 20+ sets per body part should stay away from multiple workouts a week per body part.
On the flip side, if ur volume is low (like mine), and ur intensity is higher (working with failure techniques etc), then should more frequency also be avoided?
Or is such a routine as upper/lower/upper etc, advised?
Im not quizing u, just looking for ur opinions?
davie
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So pumpster wen u say that an individual would work their muscles better working them 2/3 times a week, is this for the guy who uses average set numbers,10 - 15 per body part??
I am just wandering as i would guess high volume trainers who insist on 20+ sets per body part should stay away from multiple workouts a week per body part.
On the flip side, if ur volume is low (like mine), and ur intensity is higher (working with failure techniques etc), then should more frequency also be avoided?
Or is such a routine as upper/lower/upper etc, advised?
Im not quizing u, just looking for ur opinions?
davie
if you do 20sets per bodypart with high intensity you wont be able to do that 2-3 days a week per muscle. if you do really high volume per session once a week is "enough". Also volume isnt static..its something that can be increased by slowly letting the body get used to more volume. If you do 2/3 times per week id say mostly avoid failure...unless you wanna do 1-2 sets per muscle at each workout (not optimal). id recommend you to start with 6-8 non failure sets 2-3 times a week for each muscle group. do that for a couple of months.
failure training can be used for short periods of time..but IMO failure should be avoided most of the time to allow you to do more sets. More sets equals more muscle loading=more mass (if food rest etc is on target)
avoiding failure doesnt mean training like a pussy :just stopping 1-2 reps before failure.
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if you do 20sets per bodypart with high intensity you wont be able to do that 2-3 days a week per muscle. if you do really high volume per session once a week is "enough". Also volume isnt static..its something that can be increased by slowly letting the body get used to more volume. If you do 2/3 times per week id say mostly avoid failure...unless you wanna do 1-2 sets per muscle at each workout (not optimal). id recommend you to start with 6-8 non failure sets 2-3 times a week for each muscle group. do that for a couple of months.
failure training can be used for short periods of time..but IMO failure should be avoided most of the time to allow you to do more sets. More sets equals more muscle loading=more mass (if food rest etc is on target)
avoiding failure doesnt mean training like a pussy :just stopping 1-2 reps before failure.
I completely disagree that more sets =more mass. I believe that is nonsense or we wud have guys training 1 body part a day 100 sets a bodypart!
I already have split etc i like tho in future might deveolp it, keep the same fundamentals i use at the mo, high intensity, rest/pause/drops/failure.
davie
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I completely disagree that more sets =more mass. I believe that is nonsense or we wud have guys training 1 body part a day 100 sets a bodypart!
I already have split etc i like tho in future might deveolp it, keep the same fundamentals i use at the mo, high intensity, rest/pause/drops/failure.
davie
DOHH who said anything about 100 sets? you HIT guys see everything in black or white. also more sets=more mass is only true in a limited framework (not 100 sets per session) ::)
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if you do 20sets per bodypart with high intensity you wont be able to do that 2-3 days a week per muscle. if you do really high volume per session once a week is "enough". Also volume isnt static..its something that can be increased by slowly letting the body get used to more volume. If you do 2/3 times per week id say mostly avoid failure...unless you wanna do 1-2 sets per muscle at each workout (not optimal). id recommend you to start with 6-8 non failure sets 2-3 times a week for each muscle group. do that for a couple of months.
failure training can be used for short periods of time..but IMO failure should be avoided most of the time to allow you to do more sets. More sets equals more muscle loading=more mass (if food rest etc is on target)
avoiding failure doesnt mean training like a pussy :just stopping 1-2 reps before failure.
Frequency & intensity including failure are very subjective. HIT training whether anyone believes in or practicies it is where the idea of doing less to avoid over-taxing the cns came from, and i don't believe at all in the idea that 2-3 times a week can't include failure or intensity.
Positive failure most or all of the time, negative failure on the last set of each exercise can be done multiple times a week from my experience, and helps greatly in development. One must push the envelop at least some of the time to make gains IMO. This is what was done in the old days and has proven effective. This theory about over-taxing the cns and having to take it easier is just a theory, there's nothing in stone.
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Frequency & intensity including failure are very subjective. HIT training whether anyone believes in or practicies it is where the idea of doing less to avoid over-taxing the cns came from, and i don't believe at all in the idea that 2-3 times a week can't include failure or intensity.
Positive failure most or all of the time, negative failure on the last set of each exercise can be done multiple times a week from my experience, and helps greatly in development. One must push the envelop at least some of the time to make gains IMO. This is what was done in the old days and has proven effective. This theory about over-taxing the cns and having to take it easier is just a theory, there's nothing in stone.
i agree that some people are too scared of overtraining and use it as an excuse not to work hard, but i still believe failure training week after week with forced reps (as many sticks at the gym do) will lead to burn out.
offtopic:
pumpster you said you trained bodybuilders on barbados in the 70s?...could you talk about your training routines back then? did you superset chest and back exercises...(maybe we should start another thread for this topic)
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DOHH who said anything about 100 sets? you HIT guys see everything in black or white. also more sets=more mass is only true in a limited framework (not 100 sets per session) ::)
Well i was using 100 sets as an example after ur more sets =more masss statement, not gonna argue about it tho.
I dont see things in balck and white actually, i myself am tthinking of little tweaks to make in the next few months that will allow me to keep my lower volume lifts, while working in sum olympic moves done with some more volume.
davie
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Frequency & intensity including failure are very subjective. HIT training whether anyone believes in or practicies it is where the idea of doing less to avoid over-taxing the cns came from, and i don't believe at all in the idea that 2-3 times a week can't include failure or intensity.
Positive failure most or all of the time, negative failure on the last set of each exercise can be done multiple times a week from my experience, and helps greatly in development. One must push the envelop at least some of the time to make gains IMO. This is what was done in the old days and has proven effective. This theory about over-taxing the cns and having to take it easier is just a theory, there's nothing in stone.
Thats what i was wanting to know ur opinion on pumpster.
as i already do MON=back./shoulders
WED=legs
FRI=chest/arms.
In the next few weeks,months i might develop that and merge the upper body days, and do upper/lower/upper, then lower/upper/lower etc.
I dont use static and negative failure. I use positive failure on all sets (really hitting the wall so i cant move it myself), the odd forced rep,rest/pause and drop sets.
davie
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We all will be waiting in awe to learn the training method of experienced BB'ing coaching in Barbados. Please do not keep us all waiting. Good Luck.
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So pumpster wen u say that an individual would work their muscles better working them 2/3 times a week, is this for the guy who uses average set numbers,10 - 15 per body part??
I am just wandering as i would guess high volume trainers who insist on 20+ sets per body part should stay away from multiple workouts a week per body part.
davie
IMO you should try varying different aspects and see which appeals. Start with 2 times a week/muscle using moderate sets and positive failure on most sets. 7-9 sets on smaller muscles, 9-12 on larger muscles. Then increase the sets, adjust the number of sets you take to failure, etc. each for 4 weeks or more and see which works better.
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We all will be waiting in awe to learn the training method of experienced BB'ing coaching in Barbados. Please do not keep us all waiting. Good Luck.
More useless tripe from someone looking more and more like a big baby rather than an adult. Having his ass handed to him over his "Zottermen curl" debacle and others like it that still sting like hell when attempting to pose as any kind of serious training reference. Jealous of the fact that i was training side by side with Mr. Universe contestants in my teens before he even knew what a barbell was.
Then turns around and bitches about me on other boards, further highlighting the obsession. It goes nowhere fast. ;D Me i have better things to do than follow others around other boards like a puppy.
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i agree that some people are too scared of overtraining and use it as an excuse not to work hard, but i still believe failure training week after week with forced reps (as many sticks at the gym do) will lead to burn out.
offtopic:
pumpster you said you trained bodybuilders on barbados in the 70s?...could you talk about your training routines back then? did you superset chest and back exercises...(maybe we should start another thread for this topic)
Agreed, forced reps or similar things like it have to be used sparingly to avoid burnout. Less is more, use it very occasionally and go all out past positive failure only infrequently. Go to positive failure most or all of the time however, after good warmpus.
I didn't train guys i was just lucky enough as a kid to train around top guys. To be honest i can only vagely remember the programs but they were just typical programs of the era-Padilla's workout below would be very typical. Like others of that era like Schwarzenegger & Scott, basically the same program was used unchanged for years-a 3-day split modified slightly pre-contest in terms of greater frequency & sets.
The only difference i'd suggest now is to try it and then experiment with less sets of each exercise (try 3-4 sets each xercise instead of 5, with high intensity) and see what the difference is. Also try moderate reps 8-10 instead of 12.
As far as supersets, i've always believed that compounds are better, supersetting the same muscle. Right out of the Gironda routines. It's just another way of adding intensity, as Arthur Jones achieved in different ways with HIT.
Max posted this recently; typical routine:
During most of the year Danny trains 4 to 6 days a week He always follows the same split. Day 1 Chest and Back. Day 2 Shoulders and Arms. Day 3 legs. Repeat. If he misses a workout, (which he often does, he doesn’t worry about it, he just does that workout when he returns to the gym. During this time he does 2 to 3 exercises per body-part for 5 sets of 12 reps. Danny uses the same weight in each set. When he can get 12 reps on all 5 sets, he’ll add weight during the next workout. His rest between sets is short. No longer than a minute. Even though the volume is high Danny completes these workouts in just over an hour… This is another way of keeping the intensity high which was taught by Vince Gironda, Bill Pearl and other great trainers of “the golden era” of bodybuilding.
Chest and Back
Bench Press 2-3 warm-up sets then 5 X 12
Incline 5 X 12
Flys 5 X 12
Dumbell Pullovers 5 X 12
Chins 5 X 12
Bent Barbell Rows 5 X 12
Cable Pull-ins 5 X 12
Once a week he does Deadlifts 5 X 12
Shoulders and Arms
Seated presses 2 warm-ups then 5 X 12
Super-seted with cable laterals 5 X 12
Dumbbell rear delt raises 5 X 12
Front Raises OR Upright Rows 5 X 12
Dumbell Curls 5 X 8
Barbell Curls 5 X 8
Concentration Curls OR Preacher Curls 5 X 8
Lying triceps extensions 5 X 12
Seated overhead EZ bar extensions 5 X 12
Pushdowns OR One arm dumbbell overhead extensions 5 X 12
Legs – Abs
Leg Extensions 5 X 12
Squats 5 X 12
Leg Presses 5 X 12
Lying Leg Curls 5 X 12
Standing Leg Curls 5 X 12
Standing Calf Raises 5 X 12
Donkey Calf Raises 5 X 15
Seated Calf Raises 5 X 15
Crunches or Leg Raises 5 X 20
Contest Training: Volume on body part is raised 20 sets per bodypart. Weeks 12-7 body parts are trained twice a week. During weeks 6-0 each body part is trained three times a week. Danny gains size right up to the day of the contest even on this high volume, high frequency routine.
Weeks 12 to 7
Monday and Thursday -- Chest and Back
Bench Press 2-3 warm-up sets then 5 X 12
Incline 5 X 12
Fly’s 5 X 12
Cable Fly’s 5 X 12
Chins 5 X 12
Bent Barbell Rows 5 X 12
Cable Pull-ins 5 X 12
Pulldowns 5 X 12
Once a week he does Deadlifts 5 X 12
Tuesday and Friday -- Shoulders and Arms
Seated presses 2 warm-ups then 5 X 12
Superseted with cable laterals 5 X 12
Dumbbell rear delt raises 5 X 12
Front Raises
Upright Rows 5 X 12
Dumbell Curls 5 X 8
Barbell Curls 5 X 8
Concentration Curls 5 X 8
Preacher Curls 5 X 8
Lying triceps extensions 5 X 12
Seated overhead EZ bar extensions 5 X 12
Pushdowns 5 X 12
One arm dumbbell overhead extensions 5 X 12
Reverse Curls 5 X 12
Wrist Curls 5 X 12
Wednesday and Saturday – Legs -- Abs
Leg Extensions 5 X 12
Squats 5 X 12
Leg Presses 5 X 12
Hack Squats 5 X 12
Lying Leg Curls 5 X 12
Standing Leg Curls 5 X 12
Standing Calf Raises 5 X 15
Donkey Calf Raises 5 X 15
Seated Calf Raises 5 X 15
Crunches 5 X 20
Leg Raises 5 X 20
Weeks 6 – 0
Workouts are the same as above, rest between sets is shortened but days are split like this:
Monday Wednesday Friday Morning
Chest, Back
Monday Wednesday Friday Evening
Quads, Hamstrings
Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday Morning
Shoulders, Arms
Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday Evening
Calves, Abs
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IMO you should try varying different aspects and see which appeals. Start with 2 times a week/muscle using moderate sets and positive failure on most sets. 7-9 sets on smaller muscles, 9-12 on larger muscles. Then increase the sets, adjust the number of sets you take to failure, etc. each for 4 weeks or more and see which works better.
I think i lost u a bit bro.
what i meant it that i train with low volume high intensity training 2 exercise per body part, 1 extended set per exercise. like this: Rep out until failure (rep target for most upper body moves is 8 reps), if i get 8 or more b4 positive failure than u up weight next time, if not i keep same weight. So....i go until positive failure, then rest/pause for 10-15 seconds then go again (probs only get a couple mjore reps) until positive failure........then drop weight about 35% and go again until positive failure, rest/pause then go again until positive failure again.
I might use forced reps to help me once i fail on a rep+mayb one more assisted rep.
I like the v high intensity and low volume, but at themo im working each muscle once a week, but in the future i might progress that to keeping the same training techniques/philosophy (low volume high intensity), but making it upper/lower/upper once week, then lower/upper/lower then next. Will mean bodyparts get worked twice one week and once the next.
My original question to u pumpster was wether u thought that high intensity trainers could follow such a program, or wud sticking to once a week be more benifitial?!
davie
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I think i lost u a bit bro.
what i meant it that i train with low volume high intensity training 2 exercise per body part, 1 extended set per exercise. like this: Rep out until failure (rep target for most upper body moves is 8 reps), if i get 8 or more b4 positive failure than u up weight next time, if not i keep same weight. So....i go until positive failure, then rest/pause for 10-15 seconds then go again (probs only get a couple mjore reps) until positive failure........then drop weight about 35% and go again until positive failure, rest/pause then go again until positive failure again.
I might use forced reps to help me once i fail on a rep+mayb one more assisted rep.
I like the v high intensity and low volume, but at themo im working each muscle once a week, but in the future i might progress that to keeping the same training techniques/philosophy (low volume high intensity), but making it upper/lower/upper once week, then lower/upper/lower then next. Will mean bodyparts get worked twice one week and once the next.
My original question to u pumpster was wether u thought that high intensity trainers could follow such a program, or wud sticking to once a week be more benifitial?!
davie
I think you're describing strip sets, with short rests and reduced weight with each subsequent set. The thing with your training is that it's made more complicated by the fact you're mixing it with Rugby. In which case I think you mentioned that you have no choice anyway in terms of changing the frequency, for now. Your approach will maintain at least, and could help improve.
When you're not conflicted with Rugby, compare for 4-8 weeks. Try twice a week training using exacty the same training approach, as it is or split up. Compare results with 4-8 weeks of what you're doing now, using the same split. That's the only way you'll know, by comparing the effect.
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I think you're describing strip sets, with short rests and reduced weight with each subsequent set. The thing with your training is that it's made more complicated by the fact you're mixing it with Rugby. In which case I think you mentioned that you have no choice anyway in terms of changing the frequency, for now. Your approach will maintain at least, and could help improve.
When you're not conflicted with Rugby, then try twice a week training using exacty the same training approach. Whether you split it up onto different days is up to you. Try this for 4-8 weeks either with or without the split, and compare results with 4-8 weeks of what you're doing now, without having other sports in the way. That's the only way you'll know, by comparing the effect.
Thanks for reply bro, interesting suggestions.
I only actually drop the weight once. If i was leg raises 220 for say 20 then failed, i would rest 10-15 seconds and use 220 again until failure (maybe 6 reps more). Then i would drop it to maybe 80kg's and after 10-15 seconds more id go again until failure, then rest/apuse another 10-15 seconds and go until failure again.
I think its been working well, my weights have been going up on things each week (iv been recovering enough from the week b4 to meet my rep targets with the new heavier weights)!!
So wen im finished rugby for the season, i should give the upper/lower a try keeping the same routine tho (il merge shoulder/back and chest/arms days....unless i changed it to push/pull)??
The other alterantive i have is do upper on monday,lower on tuesday, wednesday off then, thur upper speed day (cleans db snatches etc), and friday lower speed (speed squats, overhead squats).
As iv said il b sticking with curretn routine for a while longer, im enjoying the improvements and progress, but might make these changes at end of the season.
Opinions??
davie
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Thanks for reply bro, interesting suggestions.
I only actually drop the weight once. If i was leg raises 220 for say 20 then failed, i would rest 10-15 seconds and use 220 again until failure (maybe 6 reps more). Then i would drop it to maybe 80kg's and after 10-15 seconds more id go again until failure, then rest/apuse another 10-15 seconds and go until failure again.
I think its been working well, my weights have been going up on things each week (iv been recovering enough from the week b4 to meet my rep targets with the new heavier weights)!!
So wen im finished rugby for the season, i should give the upper/lower a try keeping the same routine tho (il merge shoulder/back and chest/arms days....unless i changed it to push/pull)??
The other alterantive i have is do upper on monday,lower on tuesday, wednesday off then, thur upper speed day (cleans db snatches etc), and friday lower speed (speed squats, overhead squats).
As iv said il b sticking with curretn routine for a while longer, im enjoying the improvements and progress, but might make these changes at end of the season.
Opinions??
davie
Don't change anything if there's still improvement, then try some variations including what i said AND push/pull, each for 4-8 weeks. Then go back to this original routine for a while, see which works better, all done during a time when there's nothing else in the way.
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OK bro, like i said at the mo im gonna keep it the same.
Thanks for replys, what exactly did u mean by ur variation (that u suggested)?? Im sorry im half asleep mate.Long day.
davie
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OK bro, like i said at the mo im gonna keep it the same.
Thanks for replys, what exactly did u mean by ur variation (that u suggested)?? Im sorry im half asleep mate.Long day.
davie
Variations on the same program already done, in terms of changing the training frequency, splitting the program up, push/pull, etc.
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Variations on the same program already done, in terms of changing the training frequency, splitting the program up, push/pull, etc.
Thanks bro, if i try any of them i might try push/pull
Upper/lower would have me doing alot on upper days (about 11 exercises), push/pull has me doing about 9 on push days and 9 on pull days.
Push=shoulder (2 exercises)....chest (2 exercises)....,quads (3 exercises)....,tris (2 exercises).
Pull= Couple of sets of Cleans....Back (3 exercises)....,Hammys (2 exercises)....,Bi's (2 exercises)....,Traps (1 exercise).
Week looking like this MONDAY=push....WEDNESDAY=Pull....FRIDAY=Push
Next week MONDAY=Pull....WEDNESDAY= Push....FRIDAY=Pull.
Think that looks ok??
Might try it in month after iv finished period of what im doing?!
davie
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Gee, don't have to get so sensitive and bent out of shape. Thought you would like to share you experiences training top BB'ers in Barbados. Which I heard you have said you have done. Now that would be interesting stuff for some guy's here. Care to name names for a better insight on their training back in the day? You must have been connected to the government then. Some of those brothers always seem to have the smallest waist and biggest lat spread and widest delts during that time. Good Luck.