Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Mixed Martial Arts (MMA/UFC) => Topic started by: The Squadfather on March 14, 2007, 12:54:15 PM
-
discuss.
-
wrong...
Plenty of smaller weaker guys defeat big dudes. For example Sakuraba vs Randleman.
-
wrong...
Plenty of smaller weaker guys defeat big dudes. For example Sakuraba vs Randleman.
no way, if they are both skilled the bigger stronger man always wins.
-
Both skilled in what? What are the odds that two fighters have equal skill in the same aspects of fighting but one happens to be smaller and weaker? Im not saying the smaller and weaker guy will ALWAYS win. It does happen.
-
If so Bob Sapp would be undefeated, but he is not.
-
Yah, but Bob Sapp also has no skill.
-
Take two fighters with roughly the same skill level and experience and the bigger/stronger guy will win the majority of the time. That's why weight classes exist, however.
-
Yah, but Bob Sapp also has no skill.
His lack of mobility is what causes him to get beat. All that strength and power doesn't mean anything if you can't catch your opponent.
Now, take a big, strong mobile guy with skill, against a considerably smaller guy with the same skill, for example, Fedor vs GSP, no one in their right mind would think that GSP has a shot.
-
It depends, but I would say I don't believe in the big strong= win theory.
There is a saying "a good big man will always beat a good small man" ....but if that big man has less to no heart, I just don't see it happening for him that night.
-
It depends, but I would say I don't believe in the big strong= win theory.
There is a saying "a good big man will always beat a good small man" ....but if that big man has less to no heart, I just don't see it happening for him that night.
big and strong is not a theory , it;s just a HUGE advantage. If Bob Sapp was 240-250 lbs he would have NEVER EVER fought in K-1/Pride or can you imagine Tim Silvia being 6'0 - 6'-1" with the same skills ... :-\
-
Little guys pick on big guys all the time..
-
big and strong is not a theory , it;s just a HUGE advantage. If Bob Sapp was 240-250 lbs he would have NEVER EVER fought in K-1/Pride or can you imagine Tim Silvia being 6'0 - 6'-1" with the same skills ... :-\
Ever heard of weight classes, dipshit? ::)
-
I take it Squadfather hasn't seen Franklin versus Silva, Wandy versus Hendo II, Barnett versus Crocop I, II, III. Big Daddy versus Fedor, Fujita versus Fedor, BJ Penn/Hughes I, Saku/Belfort, Saku/Conan, Enson/Randy, Lindland/Baroni I, II. Too many to mention, bad point.
-
speed and technique will win more fights than strength and size..
-
Just look at all the 1st graders bulling the 6th graders in elementary school.. They are smaller and faster..
-
Nainoa would take on any sixth grader.......http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoID=2000840688
He is a great kid and trains at a club not to far from me. Kids mysteriously drop out when tournament time comes. Definitely not the biggest or strongest, but hella skilled.
-
we are not talking about children..the difference between a 1st grader and 6th grader is not just in size,so most any 1st grader would stand no chance..anyways,proper technique can offset a difference in strength and speed can overcome size..this is why you can see a 145lb guy break a stack of 12 bricks and an untrained 265lb power lifter unable to break even 1 brick..of coarse the power lifter is stronger than the 145lb guy, but the smaller man has more speed and technique..i know bricks do not hit back and breaking bricks gives very little indication of fighting skills, but i used that example just to make my point..
-
Small guys beat up big guys..
-
Small guys beat up big guys..
...are you talking from you own experience?.....I know you were big.....have you ever get your ass kicked by some skinny little punkass? :-\
-
we are not talking about children..the difference between a 1st grader and 6th grader is not just in size,so most any 1st grader would stand no chance..anyways,proper technique can offset a difference in strength and speed can overcome size..this is why you can see a 145lb guy break a stack of 12 bricks and an untrained 265lb power lifter unable to break even 1 brick..of coarse the power lifter is stronger than the 145lb guy, but the smaller man has more speed and technique..i know bricks do not hit back and breaking bricks gives very little indication of fighting skills, but i used that example just to make my point..
Nainoa was a second grader beating sixth graders at the Kickin It tournament. And yes, boards don't hit back. Having power to break stationary objects means nothing. Having power to hit a bobbing and weaving boxer means everything. Skill can make up a lot of things, but all things being equal, bigger is best. That is why there is weight classes and athletic commisions. That being said, I would take Fedor over a bigger opponent.
-
there is no such thing as evenly skilled...even I hold back in the gym and not let little things I pick up here and there show in practice until a fight to prevent people from reading me as easily. There's always a twist to every fight. IF both fighters WERE equally matched, the bigger and stronger guy would PROBABLY win. You can't count out the lighter and faster guy. You can't hit what you can't catch or touch which is my problem. Too fucking slow.
....but that's never the case so who cares.
-
i'm looking at this from an either/or point of view..of coarse i would like to have speed/technique and size/strength..However, if i could only have either/or i'm always choosing speed/technique..
-
i'm looking at this from an either/or point of view..of coarse i would like to have speed/technique and size/strength..However, if i could only have either/or i'm always choosing speed/technique..
For MMA, I'd take a mixture of both personally.
-
For MMA, I'd take a mixture of both personally.
speed and technique=power but you're right..the more size you have behind the movement, the more power you have at your disposal.
Or dont' fight sloppy with a slack jaw and you won't have to worry about it. ;D
-
speed and technique=power but you're right..the more size you have behind the movement, the more power you have at your disposal.
Or dont' fight sloppy with a slack jaw and you won't have to worry about it. ;D
Not just that. The strength and size is going to come into play in the clinch and what not.
-
Little guys are stronger than big guys too..
Does anything I'm saying here sound stupid??
Well... No shit.... Big guys always have beat the shit out of the little chumps and always will..
Why do you guys even debate about this?
-
BJ Penn at 185 would kick everyone of our asses. No matter how big you are. I have seen him KO 290 lb Tongan's. Not an easy thing to do.
-
BJ Penn at 185 would kick everyone of our asses. No matter how big you are. I have seen him KO 290 lb Tongan's. Not an easy thing to do.
yeah sure, Penn is unbeatable.....he is not a human ::) ...don't be ridiculous ....he's definately an excellent fighter who can beat qiute a few bigger guy, but there a plenty of fihters weighing 20-40 lbs over him who'd manhandle teh little Hawaiian...
-
^^^I am sure there are, but we aren't talking about Mirko and Crocop here. BTW, if bigger/stronger is the best then your arguement about Lindland winning is out the door. ???
-
^^^I am sure there are, but we aren't talking about Mirko and Crocop here. BTW, if bigger/stronger is the best then your arguement about Lindland winning is out the door. ???
never said Lindland would win against Fedor, as much as I respect the guy I give him only 30 % chance of a win....2nd - like I said biger/stronger is a huge advantage that's it......and I'm not talking about Mirko .......there are plenty of other LHW and HW guys who will not get knocked out , neither submitted by Penn....
-
^^Bigger, stronger is an advantage, better athlete usually wins. Strength and size is only a small part of the key attributes that make up a good fighter. Speed, timing, riddum, (sorry GSP fans, I couldn't resist), killer instinct, balance , focus, all make a great fighter. Size and strength aren't the be all end all like Squad suggested. Otherwise Bob Sapp is unbeatable. And we all know he is not. BJ still pawns. Even your boy Woogie thinks so.
-
..even with a shitty technique Sapp still beat names like Hoost etc, something that would never happened if Sapp was the same size as Hoost.And Sapp is a former fotball player , he had nothing to do with martial arts...when he fought in K-1 he probably did not have more than 3 years experince, and Hoost on the other side is aguy who 's been into MA since a teenager. Here is an example how big of advantage size and strength can be, ESPECIALLY ON THE STREET. Also don't forget that there are plenty of big muscular fighters who are also fast, agile, with great stamina - LeBanner, Antonio Silva, J. thompson, etc....
-
There is no way in hell you can make the case for Sapp in the second fight. That was an early stoppage. How well did Bob do against Ray Sefo? Crocop? LeBanner in MMA mixed rules? (LeBanner mounted him for Christ sakes). He did extremely well against Nog, but that fight was the one that put him on the map. I think that he could get a lot better, but his endorsements, and other activities precluded him from continuing training with Mo, Matt and Josh. Size and strength does make a difference, it didn't help Jouko Ahola when he made his Superbrawl debut.
-
in a street fight, size is less of a concern..a 145lb dude who is willing to kill you in any way he can is much more dangerous than a 200lb guy who is just looking to brawl..
-
right my opinion on this matter is from what ive seen and done. Bigger guys dont neccessarily win because theyre bigger, ive seen 5'7 guys KTFO men who are 6'2-3 on a regular basis. Stronger guys dont necessarily always win either because the average brawler doesnt know how to harness his strength and power.
The smaller guys are faster, and some of them have frightening power for their size. As ive stated before there is a guy my age who lives down the road from me. Hes about 6' and 170lbs. If he hits you, you go to hospital its as simple as that.
Gods honest truth, he punched a bouncer outside a pub about 2-3 years ago and hit him so hard the guy had his cheekbone smashed AND broke his leg on the way down. The bouncer was about 280, so its not necessarily the size and strength that determines who wins. Its knowing how to use them to your advantage.
Just my opinion
-
The reason they have weight classes is so the light weights don't kill the heavy weights..
-
The reason they have weight classes is so the light weights don't kill the heavy weights..
especially in sports like wrestling , where even 5-10 lbs matter , that's why the classes there change almost every 10 lbs.
-
especially in sports like wrestling , where even 5-10 lbs matter , that's why the classes there change almost every 10 lbs.
Skill level being the same, or relatively the same, bigger and stronger is best. However, when they aren't the same, like Mirko/Sapp, then it doesn't matter. In organized wrestling all the variables are similar, so weight cutting became popular so a bigger guy could wrestle with the smaller guys. Lets not let the facts cloud the issue here. Squads assertion was bigger/stronger ALWAYS win. That isn't the case. That is all.
-
speaking of big and bigger guys... ;D Butterbean is da man!
-
However, when they aren't the same, like Mirko/Sapp, then it doesn't matter.
It did matter with regard to Mirko's approach to the fight. He played a stick-n-move type game against Sapp, as a way to avoid Sapp's obvious strength and power advantage.
In his fight against Eddie Sanchez, Cop was the one doing the stalking.
My point being that even if a smaller fighter has a skill edge, he still has to respect the bigger fighter's size and strength.
-
of course it did matter , when it comes to fighting all those factors matter - the more you have of each - the better you will be - skills/technique, strenght, power, endurance, quickness, aggression....
-
It did matter with regard to Mirko's approach to the fight. He played a stick-n-move type game against Sapp, as a way to avoid Sapp's obvious strength and power advantage.
In his fight against Eddie Sanchez, Cop was the one doing the stalking.
My point being that even if a smaller fighter has a skill edge, he still has to respect the bigger fighter's size and strength.
I agree with you wholeheartedly, but Squad's original assertion is that the biggest and strongest win every fight. Didn't help Tank against Paul Buentello. No matter if you can bench press 600+, when you get caught with a nice three punch combo from a seasoned trained fighter, it is lights out.
-
dont matter how big a guy is it could take one punch to end a fight
-
I agree with you wholeheartedly, but Squad's original assertion is that the biggest and strongest win every fight. Didn't help Tank against Paul Buentello. No matter if you can bench press 600+, when you get caught with a nice three punch combo from a seasoned trained fighter, it is lights out.
Squad tends to push the env on every topic. The real issue is whether size is an advantage. IMO, the answer is yes. But, an advantage in one area doesn't automatically translate to a win.
I was watching two middleweight boxers on tv the other night. They were definitely throwing hard enough to knock my 210lb ass out.
-
Squad tends to push the env on every topic. The real issue is whether size is an advantage. IMO, the answer is yes. But, an advantage in one area doesn't automatically translate to a win.
I was watching two middleweight boxers on tv the other night. They were definitely throwing hard enough to knock my 210lb ass out.
Of course size is an issue. It is one of many issues that affect unarmed combat. But size didn't help me none when rolling with Baret Yoshida. If the two combatants are close in skill levels, and other key attribute levels, then bigger and stronger is best. NO DOUBT. I was just arguing against the BIGGER exclusively being best. Anyone who trains should know that.
-
Watch out for those infants.. They pack baby power..
-
Watch out for those infants.. They pack baby power..
Okay, no sense arguing with someone without logic. Thats alright, you get big armz, brah....
-
Okay, no sense arguing with someone without logic. Thats alright, you get big armz, brah....
I go to gym now..
-
Which of the 2 is smarter ??? a lot of factors enter in here I don't think you can just judge on size, genetics also come into play here. the bottom line is who hits first with a stunning or KO shot? whatever way that happens is irrelevant. Hell doesn't take a big guy to front kick ya in the knee caps and cave your knee in either. kind of hard to continue after that ;) The rules in a fight is a big factor also.
-
His lack of mobility is what causes him to get beat. All that strength and power doesn't mean anything if you can't catch your opponent.
Now, take a big, strong mobile guy with skill, against a considerably smaller guy with the same skill, for example, Fedor vs GSP, no one in their right mind would think that GSP has a shot.
Yeah, Hoost really beat the shit of Sapp ::)
-
Yeah, Hoost really beat the shit of Sapp ::)
Sapp has no technique whatsoever, and he still managed to kick the ass of of some of the best fighters in the world, in a match with rules where he could not use all his power. Imagine if it was a street fight, the guy can throw you around like your shit and then it's over.
-
Sapp has no technique whatsoever, and he still managed to kick the ass of of some of the best fighters in the world, in a match with rules where he could not use all his power. Imagine if it was a street fight, the guy can throw you around like your shit and then it's over.
Sapp is a crybaby.
-
Sapp has no technique whatsoever, and he still managed to kick the ass of of some of the best fighters in the world, in a match with rules where he could not use all his power. Imagine if it was a street fight, the guy can throw you around like your shit and then it's over.
That's exactly what I have been saying around here... A street fight is not a ring fight. Strength and weight play an important role. Many good fighters probably couldn't defeat a guy like pudzianowski in a street fight...
-
youre forgetting Mariusz is a jail hardened boxer and knows how to punch fuck out of someone
-
Well from personal experience I've been totally hadled by small guys (160-170lbs)with a smarter technique. And I've handled guys up to 70lbs heavier than myself in an easy relaxed, mannor, In short no big guys don't always win ;)
In a street fight anything can happen, and will. I suggest not giving anyone any chances no matter what size they are! I cant count how many times I've seen some big dude who thinks no one cant hurt them get dropped in 1-2 shots, from some dude whos 5 foot fuck all. Whats that saying ??? It's not the size of the dog in the fight it's the size of the fight in the dog.
-
Blast from the past. Master Pedro Sauer against Mr. Utah.
Size does make a difference if all things are equal.
-
There's so much wrong with that dudes style I won't even get started ;)
Not a good example, Yes a small dude who doesn't know how to fight will not beat a big dude who doesn't know how to fight lol
Didn't we already discuss the karate thing ??? And that was the worst JJ I ever saw :o
Mr Utah could have finished that dude off in 10 seconds np
and is not the name of this thread the biggest and strogest guy wins EVERY fight?
The answer is NO!
Unless you never seen a fight where the biggest guy loses, in witch case u haven't seen many fights!
-
Blast from the past. Master Pedro Sauer against Mr. Utah.
Size does make a difference if all things are equal.
That vid is a joke. In this vid you just proved that size and strength do matter. That karate jerk was being dominated! If the big guy knew how to throw 2 punches he would have killed that karate tit... Did the bber gave up? I didn't see that... In a street fight that karete tit is a fake...
-
That vid is a joke. In this vid you just proved that size and strength do matter. That karate jerk was being dominated! If the big guy knew how to throw 2 punches he would have killed that karate tit... Did the bber gave up? I didn't see that... In a street fight that karete tit is a fake...
Yeah, BJJ is Karate..... Another blast from the past, Polar Bear versus Vov. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xqeq3_varlensvsvovchanchyn. SIZE in and of itself does not win fights.
-
Yeah, BJJ is Karate..... Another blast from the past, Polar Bear versus Vov. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xqeq3_varlensvsvovchanchyn. SIZE in and of itself does not win fights.
I think you didn't understand what I want to say. Once more in your vid you show a big (fat) guy that doesn't now how to fight, fighting a good fighter (by no means small). what I an trying to say is that two guys that donīt know how to fight, the biggest and strongest normally wins, this can also be applied to professional combat. In equal conditions normally wins the biggest and strongest, and I am not talking about fat guys, I am talking about muscular guys.
Here is a vid of two fighters with very different sizes, nevertheless they both knoe how to fight.
-
I think it's much more than big! you better know how to fight, have the right style to beat your opponents style, be smarter so you know what ur opponent will do before he even does. Be naturally fast and naturally hit hard, then get trained to hit harder and move even faster. In short size is just 1 factor out of many, anyone smart, who's actually been in fights know all this! I've seen dudes 220lbs cut that can't hit hard enough to hurt a light weight! I don't know why this is, but it is. Just like some lighter dudes can lift heaver than their body size would indicate, meaning some small guys are stronger that guys 2x their size!
In short
1.size is a factor but doesn't indicate strength.
2.size doesn't indicate how hard you can hit.
3.size dose not indicate skill.
4.size does not make you faster.
5.size does not give u better cardio.
6.size does not make u smarter. (allowing u to play chess instead of checkers)
-
I think you didn't understand what I want to say. Once more in your vid you show a big (fat) guy that doesn't now how to fight, fighting a good fighter (by no means small). what I an trying to say is that two guys that donīt know how to fight, the biggest and strongest normally wins, this can also be applied to professional combat. In equal conditions normally wins the biggest and strongest, and I am not talking about fat guys, I am talking about muscular guys.
Here is a vid of two fighters with very different sizes, nevertheless they both knoe how to fight.
And isn't that what I have been saying the ENTIRE time. Squad's original thread was that SIZE ans STRENGTH were the only factor. I said it was not.