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Getbig Female Info Boards => Open Talk for Girl Discussion => Topic started by: Al-Gebra on May 13, 2007, 08:12:47 AM
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1. Many women have orgasms during rape. they're told that it's just their bodies' physiological response, and that it's totally natural.
2. Many women don't have orgasms w their partners. they're told that it's just b/c they're not in the right place mentally, and it prevents their bodies from responding. once again, totally natural.
thoughts?
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after making point # 1 and personally knowing or having known women that have rape fantasies..
you aren't gonna get ANY responces here..
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1. Many women have orgasms during rape. they're told that it's just their bodies' physiological response, and that it's totally natural.
thoughts?
Orgasms?
Never heard that, got a link to a source? It's true that a lot of them get sexually aroused during rape ("getting wet"), but that's indeed just a physiological reaction.
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Orgasms?
Never heard that, got a link to a source? It's true that a lot of them get sexually aroused during rape ("getting wet"), but that's indeed just a physiological reaction.
One of my friends works at a rape "hotline," and while i was over at her place I saw a pamphlet that talked about how an "orgasm" is just a physiological reaction and that the victim shouldn't feel guilty b/c of it. the pamphlet mentioned that this was quite a common occurrence. seems clearly contrary to the whole "female orgasms originate in the mind" crap that you get every place from Oprah to Dr. Phil to Cosmo.
I don't have a link, but I'm sure google will be your friend.
And it is true what you mention . . . women are much more "responsive" to any kind of sexual stimuli . . . some scientists speculate that it's an adaptive feature developed over thousands of years when forcible sex was more common . . .
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One of my friends works at a rape "hotline," and while i was over at her place I saw a pamphlet that talked about how an "orgasm" is just a physiological reaction and that the victim shouldn't feel guilty b/c of it. the pamphlet mentioned that this was quite a common occurrence. seems clearly contrary to the whole "female orgasms originate in the mind" crap that you get every place from Oprah to Dr. Phil to Cosmo.
I don't have a link, but I'm sure google will be your friend.
And it is true what you mention . . . women are much more "responsive" to any kind of sexual stimuli . . . some scientists speculate that it's an adaptive feature developed over thousands of years when forcible sex was more common . . .
A stressfull situation can trigger a host of other reactions. A lot of people get aroused by "kinky" or "dangerous" stuff, or by having sex in public places etc...
Maybe the same is true for a rape and the sudden spike in adrenalin, cortisol, ... will amplify any sexual response.
The mind/body thing is true though. Funny how a lot of people still consider them completely different entities when they are so closely connected and have such a big influence on each other.
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A stressfull situation can trigger a host of other reactions. A lot of people get aroused by "kinky" or "dangerous" stuff, or by having sex in public places etc...
Maybe the same is true for a rape and the sudden spike in adrenalin, cortisol, ... will amplify any sexual response.
The mind/body thing is true though. Funny how a lot of people still consider them completely different entities when they are so closely connected and have such a big influence on each other.
You would think so, but it doesn't work that way.
One of the things adrenaline does is dampen sexual responsiveness.
Cortisol is known to reduce sensitivity.
the curious thing if they're orgasming or coming close to it is that they're actually "bonding" with their attacker b/c of the hormones that are released. See oxytocin.
no wonder that rape in our culture causes so many cultural psychological problems. evolution goes one way, and culture goes the other.
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You would think so, but it doesn't work that way.
One of the things adrenaline does is dampen sexual responsiveness.
Cortisol is known to reduce sensitivity.
the curious thing if they're orgasming or coming close to it is that they're actually "bonding" with their attacker b/c of the hormones that are released. See oxytocin.
no wonder that rape in our culture causes so many cultural psychological problems. evolution goes one way, and culture goes the other.
Interesting. I looked up oxytocin.
Some functions:
# Various anti-stress functions. Oxytocin reduces blood pressure and cortisol levels, increasing tolerance to pain, and reducing anxiety. Oxytocin may play a role in encouraging "tend and befriend", as opposed to "fight or flight", behavior, in response to stress.
# Increasing trust and reducing fear
# Sexual arousal. Oxytocin injected into the cerebrospinal fluid causes spontaneous erections in rats,[5] reflecting actions in the hypothalamus and spinal cord.
# Bonding
Could be that the arousal/orgasm is a survival mechanism to "please the attacker". Or that rush of cortisol togheter with the sexual stimulus creates a spike of oxytocin, making the woman orgasm quicker.
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Okay this thread is a little borderline... but in the interests of science I'll respond to it. Maybe STella will move it, but so far doesn't look like any women-bashing posts. Any guy who comes on here and posts about women enjoying rape in a childish way will def be deleted.
I too used to volunteer at a women's center, and the statistics show that while some women do reach orgasm, these are NOT the majority. The reasons for it include a lengthy rape period (over several hours) where the rapist usually forces the woman to masturbate, or performs oral sex on her. (Believe it or not, some rapists do this to delude themselves into thinking it's "consentual." It's rare for orgasm to occur during a fast, penetration-only rape. The women do not bond with their rapists, and in fact, the highest suicide rate among rape victims occurs with women who have reached climax during the rape. Other reactions to the terror experienced during rape include urination and defecation.
Many women do seem to enjoy rape or domination fantasies, but there is some evidence to indicate that this is a result of the guilt/punishment women historically have been made to endure for having/enjoying sex, rather than some evolutionary holdover. There are also many men who enjoy the idea of being dominated/spanked etc... by women. (I personally would vouch for that since for some reason I seem to attract a good number of them at department stores, the post office, on the street, etc. ;D)
As for the other, I would say it's one or a combo of reasons including lack of the partner's skills, lack of experience, inability to let go.
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The pamphlet I saw went with a very ambiguous "Many women experience" . . . which I thought was meaningful.
the higher suicide rate in women who orgasm probably indicates that the bonding with the attacker does occur as a phsyiological reaction, and that the woman is unable to deal with it psychologically. Truly a fucked up fate I wouldn't wish on anyone. I read that "longer rape" thing too . . . seems odd, b/c you would think that the revulsion would increase and totally "block" her up.
about the second point, I think the connection w the first is that women (at least some of them) are naturally geared to respond to more assertive males . . . for better or for worse.
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The pamphlet I saw went with a very ambiguous "Many women experience" . . . which I thought was meaningful.
the higher suicide rate in women who orgasm probably indicates that the bonding with the attacker does occur as a phsyiological reaction, and that the woman is unable to deal with it psychologically. Truly a fucked up fate I wouldn't wish on anyone. I read that "longer rape" thing too . . . seems odd, b/c you would think that the revulsion would increase and totally "block" her up.
about the second point, I think the connection w the first is that women (at least some of them) are naturally geared to respond to more assertive males . . . for better or for worse.
The ambiguous pamphlet no doubt was worded that way to mollify those who do experience orgasm, but from what I've read the number is not overwhelmingly huge. Since only approx. 35% of women are able to orgasm from penetration alone, if a large number of rape victims are experiencing these, that would indicate that mostly highly orgasmic women are being selected for rape, and that isn't the case.
I'm sure victims who experience the longer rape periods suffer more from a break down of the body's defenses, in addition or in spite of the revulsion, and in these cases, the rapist has more of an opportunity to introduce various acts that might account for it.
I don't imagine that the suicide rate has anything to do with bonding, but more an intense feeling of shame and guilt. Imagine a heterosexual male being raped and ejaculating inadvertantly. His feelings would be those of shame and self-hatred, not a sudden "bonding" with his attacker. (Not to say that a gay man wouldn't suffer... just making a point.)
Geared to respond yes... however a partner's skills, and a woman's frame of mind, essentially are what gets those positive results. A woman could find herself with an adonis and still not orgasm. The right guy could literally talk her into one. ;)
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I'm not referring to a conscious bonding, but to what oxytocin does . . . involuntarily.
I find it very interesting that you said "the right guy could literally talk her into one" given what we're talking about . . . there's evidence that talking might really have very little to do w it, even though civilized people like to think it does. The parts of the brain that deal with sexuality/emotion are "old" . . . but there is the newer overlay of the enlarged cerebral cortex.
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after making point # 1 and personally knowing or having known women that have rape fantasies..
you aren't gonna get ANY responces here..
While agreeing with you will make me sick for a week... :D
I know a woman who has only ONE fantasy... which is to be raped... I truly think if she were to be raped... Not only would she orgasm, she would LOVE it... so long as she didn't catch a disease... (Like a kid or something)
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I'm not referring to a conscious bonding, but to what oxytocin does . . . involuntarily.
I find it very interesting that you said "the right guy could literally talk her into one" given what we're talking about . . . there's evidence that talking might really have very little to do w it, even though civilized people like to think it does. The parts of the brain that deal with sexuality/emotion are "old" . . . but there is the newer overlay of the enlarged cerebral cortex.
Interesting... however, this whole discussion is pretty much moot, since the fact is only a tiny percentage of women orgasm during the terrifying, disgusting experience of being raped. I seriously doubt you'll find any substantial data leading the other way. In the cases where she does, 99% of those included some form of digital or oral stimulation. 2/3ds, if not more, women require some stimulation besides penetration in order to achieve climax. Many rape experiences are embroidered with violence/beatings, and the attacker often can't maintain an erection, ergo the beatings. Most rapes are quick, though repulsive, experiences, and I'm sure Al-Gebra, based on your own experiences, would agree the circumstances above are not really conducive to eliciting an orgasm from a woman.
Demystifying the female orgasm... partner's skill, concentration/mood, experience on the part of the woman, trust, desire/arousal, oral/digital stimulation are generally the ingredients required for a happy outcome.
When I mentioned "talking her into it" I was referring to hot talk by one's lover. Goes toward mood/desire/arousal.
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While agreeing with you will make me sick for a week... :D
I know a woman who has only ONE fantasy... which is to be raped... I truly think if she were to be raped... Not only would she orgasm, she would LOVE it... so long as she didn't catch a disease... (Like a kid or something)
I didn't want to see posts like this here, because it's insulting for women to read it... but I'll explain this one, since maybe it will serve as a learning thread for some people. The rest get deleted. Many, many women have rape fantasies for different reasons but this does not translate into actually desiring this in real life. I seriously doubt ANY woman, even your friend, would like to have her jaw broken, or be punched repeatedly, then be panfully sodomized or raped by some fat, repulsive, alcohol-breathed pig in real life. Go google a serial rapist site and take a good look at some of these guys. NO woman wants that. It's a horrible experience that changes a woman for life.
Sometimes women have these fantasies because they feel guilt about their sexuality, or they've been brought up to have certain conceptions about what's sexually acceptable and the "rape" fantasy let's them transcend that. In the case of a friend of mine who enjoys them sometimes, the man figuring in them is someone adored ( ;)) and since it's her fantasy, it's all about her, and the "rape" part just means she doesn't have to do anything. It's all done to her.
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I didn't want to see posts like this here, because it's insulting for women to read it... but I'll explain this one, since maybe it will serve as a learning thread for some people. The rest get deleted. Many, many women have rape fantasies for different reasons but this does not translate into actually desiring this in real life. I seriously doubt ANY woman, even your friend, would like to have her jaw broken, or be punched repeatedly, then be panfully sodomized or raped by some fat, repulsive, alcohol-breathed pig in real life. Go google a serial rapist site and take a good look at some of these guys. NO woman wants that. It's a horrible experience that changes a woman for life.
Sometimes women have these fantasies because they feel guilt about their sexuality, or they've been brought up to have certain conceptions about what's sexually acceptable and the "rape" fantasy let's them transcend that. In the case of a friend of mine who enjoys them sometimes, the man figuring in them is someone adored ( ;)) and since it's her fantasy, it's all about her, and the "rape" part means she doesn't have to do anything. It's all done to her.
Fair enough, however, minus the vicious anger part of the rape itself, I do believe that this particular friend truly would like to be raped... Which I find odd in and of itself.
I'm not defending rape, so don't get it twisted, I'm simply saying what she has relayed to me.
Every person is different.
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Fair enough, however, minus the vicious anger part of the rape itself, I do believe that this particular friend truly would like to be raped... Which I find odd in and of itself.
I'm not defending rape, so don't get it twisted, I'm simply saying what she has relayed to me.
Every person is different.
I'm not trying to sound b*tchy toward anyone, but it's a sensitive issue for women, and posts need to be worded carefully or the thread will end up getting deleted or moved, and I think it has value here.
So what you're saying is, your friend would like to be "gently" raped, probably by a hot guy? Sounds like a typical female fantasy. And you did say she fantasized about this, not that she actually wanted it. I listed a few reasons why women have those in my post above yours. Not uncommon at all. Would she want it in real life? Take her to a serial rapist site and ask her to pick out the one she would choose for herself. I guarantee you she wouldn't want a single one.
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1. Many women have orgasms during rape. they're told that it's just their bodies' physiological response, and that it's totally natural.
2. Many women don't have orgasms w their partners. they're told that it's just b/c they're not in the right place mentally, and it prevents their bodies from responding. once again, totally natural.
thoughts?
It seems that you are trying to place the same "many women" in both situations, that there is no variance in the women that were "told" this. I don't think that a female that has problems achieving orgasm in a willing environment is suddenly going to become more orgasmic during a violent rape. :-\
Some women respond physically much more easily than others naturally. There are women who can make themselves orgasm simply by wearing tight jeans and walking, squatting in them at just the right angle for a brief period of time.
Women like that would probably have their body respond physiologically if it was manipulated, even if they detached themselves mentally in a horrible situation, more so than most other women and especially ones that don't orgasm easily with a loving partner.
So what you're saying is, your friend would like to be "gently" raped, probably by a hot guy? Sounds like a typical female fantasy.
In the case of a friend of mine who enjoys them sometimes, the man figuring in them is someone adored ( ;)) and since it's her fantasy, it's all about her, and the "rape" part just means she doesn't have to do anything. It's all done to her.
Exactly !
The fantasy is about being dominated and submitting to someone you desire. The fantasy of perhaps doing things and having things done to you that you think are forbidden or taboo, but yearn for them deep inside. The fantasy of saying no, when in actuality you crave to be taken by this person, perhaps even very aggressively and to give everything of yourself to them once you've submitted.
It's not a fantasy of being physically hurt and attacked, it's about being taken by that adored someone. :)
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It's not a fantasy of being physically hurt and attacked, it's about being taken by that adored someone.
I disagree on this point... It's about it being someone who you don't even know... an "adored someone" doesn't fall into that category.
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I disagree on this point... It's about it being someone who you don't even know... an "adored someone" doesn't fall into that category.
I'm not stating on a first name basis. :-\
A person whom you are fantasizing about is a construct/creation that 'you' know and 'you' adore, even if just for that scenario. No one is fantasizing about a faceless, shapeless, emotionless entity are they?
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I'm not stating on a first name basis. :-\
A person whom you are fantasizing about is a construct/creation that 'you' know and 'you' adore, even if just for that scenario. No one is fantasizing about a faceless, shapeless, emotionless entity are they?
I'm not sure... I'll ask her and find out... I will report back.
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It seems that you are trying to place the same "many women" in both situations, that there is no variance in the women that were "told" this. I don't think that a female that has problems achieving orgasm in a willing environment is suddenly going to become more orgasmic during a violent rape. :-\
Some women respond physically much more easily than others naturally. There are women who can make themselves orgasm simply by wearing tight jeans and walking, squatting in them at just the right angle for a brief period of time.
Women like that would probably have their body respond physiologically if it was manipulated, even if they detached themselves mentally in a horrible situation, more so than most other women and especially ones that don't orgasm easily with a loving partner.
about your first point: I'm not trying to say that women in 1. and 2. are part of the same set. as always, I choose my words carefully. You don't know that there is no overlap b/w set 1 and set 2, and I don't know if there is an overlap, but from talking to my friend it seems that there is some overlap . . . she's told me about college women whose first orgasm has been w the rapist, and not with their high school sweetheart/boyfriend. obviously, this is a source of trauma b/c of the way our culture is . . . where love is supposed to lead to orgasms.
but, that is obviously anecdotal evidence. I'm sure there are/will be studies . . . I just don't have the time right now to look them up.
deedee, my own experiences indicate that it's not about trust etc. . . . some degree of proficiency plays a part, but the most important factor IMO is something far more basic. the best sexual experiences I've had have been removed from the bounds of any 'relationship,' and merely the product of serendipitous encounters.
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deedee, my own experiences indicate that it's not about trust etc. . . . some degree of proficiency plays a part, but the most important factor IMO is something far more basic. the best sexual experiences I've had have been removed from the bounds of any 'relationship,' and merely the product of serendipitous encounters.
What is the basic? Animalistic lust? Of course that plays a huge part in the initial attraction and is at the heart of most sexual relationships... however, the physiology of women often requires a certain finesse (god this is hard to describe without being graphic :-\) and talent to ensure her satisfaction apart from desire alone.
Some women are more relaxed and open within a long-term relationship. I'm not talking emotionally and hope you can read between the lines. I too have had some excellent experiences as the product of serendipitous encounters, however, since I chose intuitively well, I trusted immediately in both the abilities of my partner and his willingness to please. That's what I was refering to.
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Exactly !
The fantasy is about being dominated and submitting to someone you desire. The fantasy of perhaps doing things and having things done to you that you think are forbidden or taboo, but yearn for them deep inside. The fantasy of saying no, when in actuality you crave to be taken by this person, perhaps even very aggressively and to give everything of yourself to them once you've submitted.
It's not a fantasy of being physically hurt and attacked, it's about being taken by that adored someone. :)
Yes, I believe all that to be at the heart of rape fantasies. :)
Many men can't seem to make the distinction.
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What is the basic? Animalistic lust? Of course that plays a huge part in the initial attraction and is at the heart of most sexual relationships... however, the physiology of women often requires a certain finesse (god this is hard to describe without being graphic :-\) and talent to ensure her satisfaction apart from desire alone.
Some women are more relaxed and open within a long-term relationship. I'm not talking emotionally and hope you can read between the lines. I too have had some excellent experiences as the product of serendipitous encounters, however, since I chose intuitively well, I trusted immediately in both the abilities of my partner and his willingness to please. That's what I was refering to.
you can rest assured that i'm following your "drift" quite well. ;) although i'm not really sure why we're being euphemistic ???
i think where we diverge is that you believe women want and need tenderness, whereas, as the years pass by, i'm wondering if, instead of trying to be hairless and sensitive metros, men would be better served by just being cavemen in the bedroom.
granted, a caveman who spent his life hunting was probably more capable of being a caveman than your average 9-5 couch potato . . . who is probably far closer to the hairless dicaprio-maguire looking metro ;D
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you can rest assured that i'm following your "drift" quite well. ;) although i'm not really sure why we're being euphemistic ???
i think where we diverge is that you believe women want and need tenderness, whereas, as the years pass by, i'm wondering if, instead of trying to be hairless and sensitive metros, men would be better served by just being cavemen in the bedroom.
granted, a caveman who spent his life hunting was probably more capable of being a caveman than your average 9-5 couch potato . . . who is probably far closer to the hairless dicaprio-maguire looking metro ;D
Lol... it's the girl board... we can't be as graphic here, otherwise this would be a topic for the sexy dungeon board. ;)
I think if you ask most women, what they would really like is a very talented caveman. :) Look at the covers of 90% of paperback romance novels. You'll see a pic of a woman being overwhelmed by an alpha-male type of man.
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I thought of another explanation for rape fantasies; in our society the double moral tells women it's not done to have one night stands and casual sex. A rape fantasy means that she can still have that anonymous sex but because she is a victim no mores are broken.
I think it's most plausible that rape fantasies are a very romantised versions of rape. If they were not, certain victims would express the want for another rape, something I just don't see happening.
It's quite a tricky issue, I think that the notion of a connection between an orgasm and actual enjoyment in this case is absolutely false.
It just proves that an orgasm in possible in the most horrible of circumstances. That doesn't mean that sex isn't a mindgame and a large group of men and women have the easiest and best orgasms when they are in their comfort zone.
As a good reference I'll use the 'pee shy' example:
Some men when peeing in a bar are very aware of others in the same room or men standing besides them urinating. This notion is enough to prevent them from performing one of the most basic and natural human functions. Transfer this idea to a bedroom, a new partner, perhaps lack of experience and you see why lots of people have problems performing sexually or have difficulties having orgasms.
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Some men when peeing in a bar are very aware of others in the same room or men standing besides them urinating. This notion is enough to prevent them from performing one of the most basic and natural human functions. Transfer this idea to a bedroom, a new partner, perhaps lack of experience and you see why lots of people have problems performing sexually or have difficulties having orgasms.
This is def. true. Some girls simply CANT orgasm with a partner. Maybe they are afraid to lose control, or they've associated guilty feelings with sexualty etc.
Eg. some girls never have an orgasm with their partner, they try a vibrator and within a couple of minutes they cum. Then they try it again when their partner next to them and they fail. Saw a woman on tv the other day and she only made love with her face under a pillow. LOL. She said she even does it while masturbating.
The suppression of female sexuality still has effects today and probably contributes to this.
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yes very true, cultural values can have very profound effects on private life.
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Lol... it's the girl board... we can't be as graphic here, otherwise this would be a topic for the sexy dungeon board. ;)
I think if you ask most women, what they would really like is a very talented caveman. :) Look at the covers of 90% of paperback romance novels. You'll see a pic of a woman being overwhelmed by an alpha-male type of man.
this is what a caveman would look like (on the right) . . . w maybe a little less of a gut.
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yes very true, cultural values can have very profound effects on private life.
Yes, that's what I said earlier too.
Although a pillow over the face seems a little extreme. :-\
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No Al-Gebra, he's a badboy, not a caveman. :-\ The distinction is subtle, but there nonetheless. I'm thinking more like this...
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Yes, that's what I said earlier too.
Although a pillow over the face seems a little extreme. :-\
whatever gets her through the night is all right.
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No Al-Gebra, he's a badboy, not a caveman. :-\ The distinction is subtle, but there nonetheless. I'm thinking more like this...
nope, those are stereotypical metros . . .
real cavemen = mike ditka, mike singletary
it's all moot anyway . . . civilization has almost completely ruined sex by saddling it w all this "cultural value" baggage. If I ever get married, I'm going to go to Borneo for my honeymoon, and i won't shave for a month and i'll knife pigs for dinner (one of the advantages of being a texas boy is actually knowing how to do that).
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nope, those are stereotypical metros . . .
real cavemen = mike ditka, mike singletary
it's all moot anyway . . . civilization has almost completely ruined sex by saddling it w all this "cultural value" baggage. If I ever get married, I'm going to go to Borneo for my honeymoon, and i won't shave for a month and i'll knife pigs for dinner (one of the advantages of being a texas boy is actually knowing how to do that).
Lol... Borneo and knifing pigs sounds kind of exciting, but to someone who grew up around Frenchmen, the not shaving for a month seems to go hand in hand more with a black turtleneck and burgundy silk scarf rather than the caveman image, but I guess that's cultural. ;)
With the scraggy hair and leather armband, I thought my first pic put forth the image of a passionate savage rather than a metro, at least that's what I was intending. I imagine with all the running after prey, and fleeing predators, the average caveman would have been lean with good abs, although would have been a lot hairier, true. The second pic was to illustrate the "doing" rather than a specific look... but I guess the hair is a little metro.
I can see where you're going with Mike Ditka, but he's a little old and it would be like fantasizing about your father, I would think. :-X Plus he comes from that era of men who weren't overwhelmingly aware of, well, how important talent is. Reminds me of Robert Mitchum, et al.
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nope, those are stereotypical metros . . .
real cavemen = mike ditka, mike singletary
it's all moot anyway . . . civilization has almost completely ruined sex by saddling it w all this "cultural value" baggage. If I ever get married, I'm going to go to Borneo for my honeymoon, and i won't shave for a month and i'll knife pigs for dinner (one of the advantages of being a texas boy is actually knowing how to do that).
You can not seperate sex or any other social phenomenon from the culture it's practised in, people define culture, culture defines people.
That doesn't mean sex is constantly an explicitly culturally laden activity, thank god it's not. There are some scenarios where it's smart to be weary of the consequences of our cultural values and how they suppress or empower certain people.
Btw you don't need to get married to get a tribal sabbatical, I've seen some travel agencies exploring this back to basics idea.
What do you guys feel is the difference between a dandy and a metrosexual?
I consider myself a bit of a dandy, I like clothes with a sleek tailored fit, nice classy italian shoes with a bit of a twist.
I look after myself, but I don't have manicures or pedicures, I do pluck the odd eyebrow hair but no more. I steer clear of make up or ascessoiries and tats. I like myself 'au natural'. I think a metro is more victimised by the L'Orealists of today's society, the idea that we should invest ample amounts of time and money on easthethic enhancers just to come by.
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The idea of the metrosexual is not a new one at all. "Dandyism" or "foppishness" was always prevalent among the courtiers and well-placed in society going back centures and probably peaking during the time of Louis XV (?). The make-up, wigs, elaborate clothes/stockings/heels, the limp wrists perpetually sporting a lace hankie, popular during centuries past seems much more extreme/feminine than the average metrosexual male with shaved chest and plucked brows.
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Yes it's age old, dandyism might be grounded in excentrism and elitism more perhaps.