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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Steroids Info & Hardcore => Topic started by: Emmortal on January 01, 2008, 02:12:04 PM
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So I've been having a discussion with a friend of mine about HCG (I've read RDW's sticky as well as a ton of other info on it) about when to run HCG. Personally, logically deducing from the information I've read it's really only good for running at the end of the cycle to help kick start your bodies test production, but he swears that running 250iu EOD throughout the entire cycle is what works best. That just doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever, but I may be completely missing something. But if you are pumping in an exogenous source of testosterone what would be the point of injecting something that mimics LH?
I'm planning on running HCG for the first time on my next cycle so just wondering what the school of thought is or if everyone just follows the RDW sticky? Cheers.
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THere is as much controversy as mens preferance in women.......
Bottom line is its a beneficial product you need figure out for YOUr own Body.
Its also NOT necessary. I never used it for years.
I like it best by itself, in the middle of a very long run.After heavy androgen part, and before less supressive stuff.
Nolva w/ it for me, I'd say add A'dex to kill any estrogen is even better.
Not a letro fan.
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I prefer it at the end, generally 1000iu/week for 3 weeks, starting when you have 1 week left on your cycle. Drops the balls nice and fast, then begin nolva.
My personal hypothesis of using it throughout the cycle would be to stop cell-death in the testes and keep them 'alive' by remaining active instead of dormant. I believe this could help reduce impotency, although I have no poof of it and have never used hcg throughout a cycle, only at the end.
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I only use it at the end of a long cycle.
i'll run 250iu every 3-5 days the last 6 weeks of the cycle and then run a normal PCT.
The only difference i notice when using HCG is my balls swell back up and my loads become much larger, other than that i don't notice anything from it.
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I only use it at the end of a long cycle.
i'll run 250iu every 3-5 days the last 6 weeks of the cycle and then run a normal PCT.
The only difference i notice when using HCG is my balls swell back up and my loads become much larger, other than that i don't notice anything from it.
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That's essentially what I've heard from friends who run it, great for getting the balls to swell back up quickly. I recovery pretty well (thankfully) without ever using it, but wanted to give it a run this go around to see if I like it or not.
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So I've been having a discussion with a friend of mine about HCG (I've read RDW's sticky as well as a ton of other info on it) about when to run HCG. Personally, logically deducing from the information I've read it's really only good for running at the end of the cycle to help kick start your bodies test production, but he swears that running 250iu EOD throughout the entire cycle is what works best. That just doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever, but I may be completely missing something. But if you are pumping in an exogenous source of testosterone what would be the point of injecting something that mimics LH?
I'm planning on running HCG for the first time on my next cycle so just wondering what the school of thought is or if everyone just follows the RDW sticky? Cheers.
Well LH needs to come before natural test is made. Exogenous test opens the Negative feedback loop. Exogenous LH fools your testes into thinking its closed (closed means like a circuit) You are thinking of the body while on juice as opposed to when it is trying to recover natural test production, they are 2 completely different animals and different goals are trying to be achieved. The whole purpose of taking HCG during cycle is to set you up for a faster recovery at the end, thats it.
The main benefit is this will help prevent atrophy of the testes while on a cycle. Therefore when it is time to recover the testes will be larger and stronger to respond and not have to spend time building back up physical size before they can start working well.
Thats the idea, does it work well? I have done it both ways, HCG on cycle, it seems to help some IME.
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Im starting to thinK that ANY small amt of exogneous testo prevents the start of recovery.
Check that Bulk muscle PCT link and see how long it takes for TE to degrade completely to ZERO.
Long Long time.
Thats why switching to fast clearing stuff like a base of Tp & a bit of mild stuff like var,primo,stanoz
for a month or 2 last is so much easier to bounce back from (for me at least)
Consider this. Possible doing the above Tp & Stan a month at end,; Then HCG at 300-500iu eod - every 3rd Day
for 1 1/2 to 2 months. 20mg of Nolva and A'dex with it to block and stop Estrogen from the HCG.
Finally some clomid.
If you go and create a bunch of estrogen w/ the HCG (and it sure seem like it does for me)
you just took a step back. Sure your nuts swelled up, but that estrogen is going to stay a spell.
If your allways right back on w/ even a small amt of TE lingering, and simply used artificial means to blow up the nuts,,,,, Dont kid yourselfs, Your system is way out of whack.
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This is one area I disagree with most on this board. Studies prove that shut down begins at first administration of test. For me, I run HCG from day one of cycle to 4 days prior to PCT. I run it @ 500iu 2xew. The only thing Im changing from here on out is the last two doses of HCG will be @ 1500iu each. Followed by a PCT of 20mg nolva(clomid if preferred) for four weeks, six weeks of aromasin @ 25mg ed, and vitamin e. I recover flawlessly, better than any other way Ive run HCG. Kept close to 100% of on cycle gains with the exception of water weight loss. My last cycle I think I lost 6lbs in total, and didn't really even feel like I came off. Strength,motivation, and weight all up up up.
To me it doesn't make any sense to let your body shut down, and testicles atrophy, just to try and recover at cycles end. Why not remain full and in working order through cycle. Just my 2cc's. On that note there are vets on this board who I respect that do not agree with this method of HCG administration. One who does agree with this method is the good Doctor FreakfestMD. He also says you need to find what works for you, I just wish more people would try this method. You might be pleasantly surprised. Sorry for the rant.
OK I'll shut up now....
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Definitely not a rant, some great information on your experiences. That was really the intent of starting this thread because I've seen and have heard a lot of differing opinions on HCG administration. I wanted this to be sort of an open discussion to see how people use HCG and what works for them.
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This is one area I disagree with most on this board. Studies prove that shut down begins at first administration of test. For me, I run HCG from day one of cycle to 4 days prior to PCT. I run it @ 500iu 2xew. The only thing Im changing from here on out is the last two doses of HCG will be @ 1500iu each. Followed by a PCT of 20mg nolva(clomid if preferred) for four weeks, six weeks of aromasin @ 25mg ed, and vitamin e. I recover flawlessly, better than any other way Ive run HCG. Kept close to 100% of on cycle gains with the exception of water weight loss. My last cycle I think I lost 6lbs in total, and didn't really even feel like I came off. Strength,motivation, and weight all up up up.
To me it doesn't make any sense to let your body shut down, and testicles atrophy, just to try and recover at cycles end. Why not remain full and in working order through cycle. Just my 2cc's. On that note there are vets on this board who I respect that do not agree with this method of HCG administration. One who does agree with this method is the good Doctor FreakfestMD. He also says you need to find what works for you, I just wish more people would try this method. You might be pleasantly surprised. Sorry for the rant.
OK I'll shut up now....
Was waiting for this from 'ya 4th....kinda shorter than I expected ;)
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Was waiting for this from 'ya 4th....kinda shorter than I expected ;)
Yeah I almost didn't even bring it up, but IMO its the only way to use HCG!
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One who does agree with this method is the good Doctor FreakfestMD. He also says you need to find what
Nice post 4thAD.
As I have reviewed on here before, high levels of intratesticular testosterone, secreted by the leydig cells, are necessary for spermatogenesis. The exogenous administration of testosterone and its metabolite estrogen will suppress both GnRH production by the hypothalamus and LH production by the pituitary gland and subsequently suppress intratesticular testosterone production. High levels of testosterone are needed inside the testis and this can never be accomplished by oral or parenteral administration of androgens.
Through its effects on the HPTA, AAS-induced suppression of testosterone production by the leydig cells will result in a deficient spermatogenesis, and lead to an irreversible death of testicular cells.
The choice is, as always, yours to make. You can protect your gonads throughout the cycle, or try to salvage what's left at the end. The choice seems obvious to me.
There has been a lot of talk on here about how people dont "feel" any different when they take hcg during the cycle, and so they have switched back to the "salvage" mode of taking it all at the end. This is flawed logic. It doesn't have anything to do with how you "feel" during the cycle. You don't "feel" leydig cell apoptosis (death), it just happens. When all of you young studs will "feel" it will be later, in your 40s and 50s, when your testosterone-producing machine (the testis) just aren't putting it out anymore. I'm in my 40's, and I couldn't give a sh*t about sperm production but you better believe I will protect every last leydig cell to the end!
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Great information Freak, exactly what I was looking for.
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Nice post 4thAD.
As I have reviewed on here before, high levels of intratesticular testosterone, secreted by the leydig cells, are necessary for spermatogenesis. The exogenous administration of testosterone and its metabolite estrogen will suppress both GnRH production by the hypothalamus and LH production by the pituitary gland and subsequently suppress intratesticular testosterone production. High levels of testosterone are needed inside the testis and this can never be accomplished by oral or parenteral administration of androgens.
Through its effects on the HPTA, AAS-induced suppression of testosterone production by the leydig cells will result in a deficient spermatogenesis, and lead to an irreversible death of testicular cells.
The choice is, as always, yours to make. You can protect your gonads throughout the cycle, or try to salvage what's left at the end. The choice seems obvious to me.
There has been a lot of talk on here about how people dont "feel" any different when they take hcg during the cycle, and so they have switched back to the "salvage" mode of taking it all at the end. This is flawed logic. It doesn't have anything to do with how you "feel" during the cycle. You don't "feel" leydig cell apoptosis (death), it just happens. When all of you young studs will "feel" it will be later, in your 40s and 50s, when your testosterone-producing machine (the testis) just aren't putting it out anymore. I'm in my 40's, and I couldn't give a sh*t about sperm production but you better believe I will protect every last leydig cell to the end!
Thanx for the bump DOC! Im not worried about sperm count either as I already have my children. I want to be full "Save the leydig", and recover completely and as fast as possible. Recovery is much faster when HCG and PCT are used in this fashon.
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Thanx for the bump DOC! Im not worried about sperm count either as I already have my children. I want to be full "Save the leydig", and recover completely and as fast as possible. Recovery is much faster when HCG and PCT are used in this fashon.
Ok, since you two brought up the kids deal....what if someone was on cycle but wanted to get their wife pregnant? Could you still run Hcg and have a high enough sperm count to make it happen? Considering the cycle was only HRT dose of test, not a lot of compounds. I had this discussion with someone once and would like to hear what you all think??!?!?
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Ok, since you two brought up the kids deal....what if someone was on cycle but wanted to get their wife pregnant? Could you still run Hcg and have a high enough sperm count to make it happen? Considering the cycle was only HRT dose of test, not a lot of compounds. I had this discussion with someone once and would like to hear what you all think??!?!?
You could still father a child (it only takes one of those little buggers!). However, your sperm count will be low.
I had mine checked on a cycle once when I was in my 20's (with no knowledge of hcg, PCT or anti-estrogens some twenty years ago), and it was zero.
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freakfest - nice post about hcg throughout a cycle, i may just try that out next time im on. what is your recommended dose / frequency?
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500iu 2x ew from first injection to 4 days prior to PCT. Last two injects @1500iu.
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4thad: do you go by length of total cycle or is that just a standard dosing you use no matter the length of your cycle? i.e. different dosing for shorter (8 week) cycles vs. dosing for longer (16+ weeks)
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No matter how long the cycle is. 500 2x e3d, or 2x ew your preference. If you go the e3d route the 5000iu hcg will still be good before exp. date.
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Freak,
i've been searching unsuccessfully to find a study i read about a year ago that stated HCG begins to lose it's effect after 6-8 weeks. i'm positive i read this but i haven't been able to find the actual link.
have you ever heard such a thing?
Thanks.
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Freak,
i've been searching unsuccessfully to find a study i read about a year ago that stated HCG begins to lose it's effect after 6-8 weeks. i'm positive i read this but i haven't been able to find the actual link.
have you ever heard such a thing?
Thanks.
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bump for this. I too have read that too much HCG use will desensitize your LH's response to it, which would be my concern of using it throughout the duration of a cycle.
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You might see some desensitization if you were running high dose HCG for an extended amount of time. I have personally run this HCG protocol and it works with no desensitization. Ive run it as long as 20 weeks. HCG @ 500iu 2xew is a light dose and studies prove this.
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You might see some desensitization if you were running high dose HCG for an extended amount of time. I have personally run this HCG protocol and it works with no desensitization. Ive run it as long as 20 weeks. HCG @ 500iu 2xew is a light dose and studies prove this.
Would you mind posting these studies?
the study i read was 250iu E5D and was ran for 24 weeks with 600mg Test C.
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I'll look them up there on pubmed.
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I'll look them up there on pubmed.
Cool!
thanks.
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This was all posted by the PCT GURU Visions from xtraxxl. His methods are backed up by studies, and I would not post anything that was not safe and effective. This is a method that I have used and will not change for the time being. I thought these studies were found pubmed, cause thats where I will usually go for research. When I could not find the studies on pubmed I went to the old tried and true xtraxxl. Here you go bro:
What you will find is studies on boys where they give them HCG for 2yrs and they give it to them eod... also studies on the optimal dose being 500iu...
1) This study will show that taking shots everyday doesn't stimulate the leydig cells to respond any better then taking one shot every 72hrs... and from reading other studies I know it can desensitize them...
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/49/1/12?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=1&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&fulltext=hcg+male+hypogonadism&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=70&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT
2) This study shows that even while on 200mg of Test a week HCG can get the testes to work and produce Test... you will see they gave different amounts of HCG and 500iu's gave a 26% higher response then baseline... meaning they are making 26% more test then normal even with the Testosterone shot... the abstract sums it up but you have to read carefully to understand everything... the shots were given eod but as you already know from the other study shots can be given every 72 hrs with the same results... this is why you will see in my HCG and PCT protocal that for optimal results shots should be given e3d instead of 2 X a week,,, still for our needs we just need the testes to keep working so they dont shut down...
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/90/5/2595?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=1&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&fulltext=hcg+male+steroids+hypogonadism&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=40&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT
3)This study shows that if you are shut down during a cycle the response to HCG or LH is progressive... I have another study that shows this even more ... if I can find it... I have hundreds of studies to sort through... I try to sort them as I go but alot of them I havn't and I havn't had time to do it...
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/61/5/926?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=1&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&fulltext=hcg+male+hypogonadism&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=20&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT
4)Here is a study that shows a small amount of desensitation after 23 months of using 1500iu's eod... Thats what I would call over stimulation anyway... too much was used and the shots were taken too often... other studies will show no desensitation because they used 500ius... anyway... we will never use that much HCG and never for that long... desensitation isn't going to happen because I have erred on the safe side of everything taking into account all aspects of HCG use in many many studies...
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/55/1/76?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=1&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&fulltext=hcg+male+hypogonadism&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT