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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Butterbean on February 06, 2008, 07:06:39 AM
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1. Does human suffering play a big part in you considering yourself an atheist?
2. Do you believe in free will?
3. Do you believe in personal responsibility?
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1. Yes, more generally, all suffering, and more generally still, the problem of evil.
2. Yes
3. Yes
Just because I don't talk to imaginary friends doesn't mean I am a total savage, you know :)
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Just because I don't talk to imaginary friends doesn't mean I am a total savage, you know :)
I don't think you're a savage coldude! :)
1. Yes, more generally, all suffering, and more generally still, the problem of evil.
By the problem of evil do you mean that you believe that evil exists?
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I don't think you're a savage coldude! :)
Why, thank you 8)
By the problem of evil do you mean that you believe that evil exists?
By "problem of evil," I mean all the suffering, death, pain that goes on. Why would a loving god allow that. Either he is able to help, but unwilling... or he is unable to help in the first place. Why does a loving god allow bad things to happen to good people. Why does a loving god allow tsunamis and Katrinas. Why does a loving god not cure cancer.
I know the standard apologetics answers to these questions, and I must say I find none of them convincing.
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1. No, I just don't think that the obese, bald man picking his nose in the car at the light this morning was in any way, shape, or form, created in any God's image. I also don't believe I came from the rib of such a hapless creature.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
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1. No, I just don't think that the obese, bald man picking his nose in the car at the light this morning was in any way, shape, or form, created in any God's image. I also don't believe I came from the rib of such a hapless creature.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
Deedee,
are you an atheist?
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Deedee,
are you an atheist?
I have my belief system, which is incredibly similar to what was written in an article Candidate posted not so long ago. I think it was from the New York times. But no, I don't think we achieve everlasting life by giving ourselves to the spirit of Jesus Christ. I respect the religious views of others, though.
Except the Discovery Institute people... ;D
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I have my belief system, which is incredibly similar to what was written in an article Candidate posted not so long ago. I think it was from the New York times. But no, I don't think we achieve everlasting life by giving ourselves to the spirit of Jesus Christ. I respect the religious views of others, though.
I'm not familiar with that article. What you posted above makes it seem like you are non-Christian, but not necessarily an atheist. Do you believe there is no god and no spiritual realm? Didn't you say that you are a Christian/Lutheran/Protestant, or is that what you used to be?
Except the Discovery Institute people... ;D
;D
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1. Does human suffering play a big part in you considering yourself an atheist?
2. Do you believe in free will?
3. Do you believe in personal responsibility?
1) yes, but its eaily not the majority
2) yes, but its hard within regards to religion
3) yes, absolutely. personal responsibility also includes staying true to the religion. i know many Christians who allow themselves certain sins that are mentioned in the bible, but still go to church evey sunday. the blatant disregard to the sin given that they know or believe the sin is not important or is guarantees to be forgiven anyway is a slap in the face to the bible.
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I have my belief system, which is incredibly similar to what was written in an article Candidate posted not so long ago. I think it was from the New York times. But no, I don't think we achieve everlasting life by giving ourselves to the spirit of Jesus Christ. I respect the religious views of others, though.
Except the Discovery Institute people... ;D
You're not Lutheran?
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1. Does human suffering play a big part in you considering yourself an atheist?
2. Do you believe in free will?
3. Do you believe in personal responsibility?
1. Human suffering less so. I will just take a line from a film I like a lot.
Get with it. Millions of galaxies of hundreds of millions of stars, and a speck on one in a blink. That's us, lost in space. The cop, you, me... Who notices?
And yet I am to believe that some local fertility deity in a barren desert in a tiny land on this myopically small mudball of a planet is the author of the entire universe? Not buying it.
2. I am not a physicist or a neuroscientist but increasingly the findings of these disciplines seems to allude to the distinct likelihood that free will is an illusion. The more these sciences progress, the more free will seems to be an invention of imaginative theologians.
3. Even if free will is an illusion, the basic premise of societal intergration and interaction is one of personal responsibility. Until there is conclusive evidence one way or the other we have to assume that we are responsible.
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1. Does human suffering play a big part in you considering yourself an atheist?
In part. Human suffering leads me to reject traditional western religions.
2. Do you believe in free will?
The jury is still out for me on this.
3. Do you believe in personal responsibility?
Yes.
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I have my belief system, which is incredibly similar to what was written in an article Candidate posted not so long ago. I think it was from the New York times. But no, I don't think we achieve everlasting life by giving ourselves to the spirit of Jesus Christ. I respect the religious views of others, though.
Except the Discovery Institute people... ;D
Here's a friendly suggestion:
How about you try to openly try to take a stand for something, for once.
Instead of dodging the issue, trying to please each and everyfcuking one.
One thing you're not, and that is a dumb fcuk. You're quite intelligent.
So either you're an Atheist. Or you're not.
Are you afraid that STella won't "like" you anymore if you flat out say you're an Atheist? Or what is the problem?
C'mon Deeds.
It's just the Internet, it ain't that serious. :-*
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Here's a friendly suggestion:
How about you try to openly try to take a stand for something, for once.
Instead of dodging the issue, trying to please each and everyfcuking one.
One thing you're not, and that is a dumb fcuk. You're quite intelligent.
So either you're an Atheist. Or you're not.
Are you afraid that STella won't "like" you anymore if you flat out say you're an Atheist? Or what is the problem?
C'mon Deeds.
It's just the Internet, it ain't that serious. :-*
I know it's just the internet, which is why I save my real passion and fury for those irl. Your post is rather odd, Hedgie, since I did answer questions on a thread for atheists. I would think that this, plus the other comments I've made on this board would indicate that I am an atheist. I hope STella does like me regardless, but I haven't hidden anything from her. I've had lots of longwinded, pages long arguments with people... Bruce comes to mind immediately, so I'm also surprised at what you think is my wishy washiness.
Since you express interest though, :) I consider myself part of Christian culture because that's what I grew up with. Like a good Lutheran Protestant I believe that fresh air and fortitude are the cure alls for everything. I would feel completely at home living within a Christian religious community, whereas I would feel completely out of place in an observant muslim community. Do you not agree that religious teachings do affect us from a cultural aspect, even if we discard the religion?
I believe that the earth itself is a giant "living" being, and consider it my "god" so to speak, although I realize how prosaic that sounds. I also have terrible and frightening premonitions about things... not lost keys or kittens... but deaths and stuff. It leads me to believe in some human hive connectivity, and other realms of consciousness, but I don't dwell on it as I can't explain it.
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1. Human suffering less so. I will just take a line from a film I like a lot.
What film is that from T?
I hope STella does like me regardless,
Of course Deeds :-*
I also have terrible and frightening premonitions about things... not lost keys or kittens... but deaths and stuff.
I would be interested in hearing more about this if you are inclined to share :)
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I also have terrible and frightening premonitions about things... not lost keys or kittens... but deaths and stuff.
Do you have Fatalist tendencies?
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I have my belief system, which is incredibly similar to what was written in an article Candidate posted not so long ago. I think it was from the New York times. But no, I don't think we achieve everlasting life by giving ourselves to the spirit of Jesus Christ. I respect the religious views of others, though.
Except the Discovery Institute people... ;D
Deedee, everyone will achieve everlasting life. It's where we spend the life of eternity that is in question.
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Deedee, everyone will achieve everlasting life. It's where we spend the life of eternity that is in question.
Got evidence?
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Got evidence?
In my father's last days before he died, he was in and out of consciousness. On two different occasions, it appears that my dad was talking to individuals who could not be seen with the naked eye. My uncle was sitting in the room with my dad, and my dad looked up at something (someone) and said, "I know who you are. I'm not ready yet." And the night my dad died, my mom and my oldest brother were thinking that my dad had passed on a couple of different times, and they shouted his name. At one point, my dad said to another person not visible to anyone else in the room, "Lord, I want to come, but they keep calling me back."
I know that's not enough for you, C-dude. But it's enough for me, especially when I've heard similar instances from others and their loved-ones who have passed on.
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In my father's last days before he died, he was in and out of consciousness. On two different occasions, it appears that my dad was talking to individuals who could not be seen with the naked eye. My uncle was sitting in the room with my dad, and my dad looked up at something (someone) and said, "I know who you are. I'm not ready yet." And the night my dad died, my mom and my oldest brother were thinking that my dad had passed on a couple of different times, and they shouted his name. At one point, my dad said to another person not visible to anyone else in the room, "Lord, I want to come, but they keep calling me back."
I know that's not enough for you, C-dude. But it's enough for me, especially when I've heard similar instances from others and their loved-ones who have passed on.
I am feeling rather charitable today, so I am gonna let this one slip... ;)
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I am feeling rather charitable today, so I am gonna let this one slip... ;)
I appreciate that, bro. :)
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In my father's last days before he died, he was in and out of consciousness. On two different occasions, it appears that my dad was talking to individuals who could not be seen with the naked eye. My uncle was sitting in the room with my dad, and my dad looked up at something (someone) and said, "I know who you are. I'm not ready yet." And the night my dad died, my mom and my oldest brother were thinking that my dad had passed on a couple of different times, and they shouted his name. At one point, my dad said to another person not visible to anyone else in the room, "Lord, I want to come, but they keep calling me back."
I know that's not enough for you, C-dude. But it's enough for me, especially when I've heard similar instances from others and their loved-ones who have passed on.
Ro = :)
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Ro = :)
Thanks, Buddyro. :)
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I am feeling rather charitable today, so I am gonna let this one slip... ;)
That's a sign of God beginning to reach you.
It's ok, deny it all you want. I know what you think.
It's ok. ;D
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That's a sign of God beginning to reach you.
It's ok, deny it all you want. I know what you think.
It's ok. ;D
Man, what is happening to me? I must be going all soft!
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In my father's last days before he died, he was in and out of consciousness. On two different occasions, it appears that my dad was talking to individuals who could not be seen with the naked eye. My uncle was sitting in the room with my dad, and my dad looked up at something (someone) and said, "I know who you are. I'm not ready yet." And the night my dad died, my mom and my oldest brother were thinking that my dad had passed on a couple of different times, and they shouted his name. At one point, my dad said to another person not visible to anyone else in the room, "Lord, I want to come, but they keep calling me back."
I know that's not enough for you, C-dude. But it's enough for me, especially when I've heard similar instances from others and their loved-ones who have passed on.
Meh, none of that is evidence that the particular tenets, doctrines and claims of Christianity are true. That's not even evidence of a divine being. An extremely religious man makes statements about his deity whilst dying? Boy, that's extremely uncommon. Socalled near-death experiences are simply misfirings of the brain. They have been replicated many times over in experiments. If your father had addressed Odin or Zeus, would you believe in them?
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What film is that from T?
Of course Deeds :-*
I would be interested in hearing more about this if you are inclined to share :)
Collateral.
Another line...
Most people, ten years from now, same job, same place, same routine. Everything the same. Just keeping it safe over and over and over. Ten years from now. Man, you don’t know where you’ll be ten minutes from now . . .
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Meh, none of that is evidence that the particular tenets, doctrines and claims of Christianity are true. That's not even evidence of a divine being. An extremely religious man makes statements about his deity whilst dying? Boy, that's extremely uncommon. Socalled near-death experiences are simply misfirings of the brain. They have been replicated many times over in experiments. If your father had addressed Odin or Zeus, would you believe in them?
Did you say something?
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Did you say something?
I did and that such a experience is evidence enough for you says much about your person.
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1. Does human suffering play a big part in you considering yourself an atheist?
2. Do you believe in free will?
3. Do you believe in personal responsibility?
Interesting questions. I'm not an atheist, but I guess the intention of the questions was to find out if one believes in ethics. For me it is quite obvious that if you say no to question 2, you must also say no to question 3. How can I be responsible for anything if I can't decide anything?
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1. Does human suffering play a big part in you considering yourself an atheist?
2. Do you believe in free will?
3. Do you believe in personal responsibility?
It really only matters what you believe, not what others believe. I believe that there are not athiests in fox holes. I believe that life is about choices, good , or bad ones. Responsibilty, is something I struggle with frequently. People are always compartmenatlizing each other into some form of religion. Live & let Live......
:-X
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It really only matters what you believe, not what others believe. I believe that there are not athiests in fox holes. I believe that life is about choices, good , or bad ones. Responsibilty, is something I struggle with frequently. People are always compartmenatlizing each other into some form of religion. Live & let Live......
:-X
Gott war, ist und wird immer tot sein.
Es lebe der chronische Schlafentzug!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Arggggggggggggggggggg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I know it's just the internet, which is why I save my real passion and fury for those irl. Your post is rather odd, Hedgie, since I did answer questions on a thread for atheists. I would think that this, plus the other comments I've made on this board would indicate that I am an atheist.
So when did you convert from Christianity to atheism?
I'm a Christian. I think it encourages people to excuse their bad behavior in the name of God when it's written on currency. Do you think Jesus would have approved? Considering what he felt about the money lenders.
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1. Does human suffering play a big part in you considering yourself an atheist?
2. Do you believe in free will?
3. Do you believe in personal responsibility?
1. what is your definition of atheist?
2. yes, but then if you didn't have free will and everything you did was pre-ordained by god would you be able to tell the difference?
3. Yes
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So when did you convert from Christianity to atheism?
Not sure exactly when I stopped believing in God, probably when I started to think for myself at around 15ish.
Like many people I'm a cultural Christian, in that certain values, ways of thinking, experiences, were engrained in me since childhood. I celebrate Christmas with joy, have no problems going to Church if asked for some reason, volunteer, that sort of thing. If I were brought up in the Jewish faith, my outlook on life would probably be ever so slightly different, (although I can host a mean seder if so inclined) and if I had been brought up Muslim, even more so.
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Not sure exactly when I stopped believing in God, probably when I started to think for myself at around 15ish.
Like many people I'm a cultural Christian, in that certain values, ways of thinking, experiences, were engrained in me since childhood. I celebrate Christmas with joy, have no problems going to Church if asked for some reason, volunteer, that sort of thing. If I were brought up in the Jewish faith, my outlook on life would probably be ever so slightly different, (although I can host a mean seder if so inclined) and if I had been brought up Muslim, even more so.
You think people who believe in God don't think for themselves?
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You think people who believe in God don't think for themselves?
Aren't you living evidence for that thesis?
Magic man and woman magiced into existence by a magic tribal deity, whom a magical talking snake appear to, whereupon the magic woman eats a magic apple....and...yup....Ge nesis is NOT literal...don't you get it?
The funny thing is, tell a fundamentalist like you that his wife is cheating on him, he's going to want hard evidence like a video, not that you saw it in a dream or an ancient text predicted it would happen...tell him the the book next to his bed is magic and contains the dictated word of the creator of the universe and he requires no evidence at all; this is called the dichotomy of the religious mind.
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You think people who believe in God don't think for themselves?
Lol, no, not necessarily, simply that at some point, everyone makes the decision to believe or not, for themselves. At least, the educated have that option.
It is true though that uneducated, poor communities tend to be more unquestioningly and fervently religious. You have only to look around the world.
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Aren't you living evidence for that thesis?
Magic man and woman magiced into existence by a magic tribal deity, whom a magical talking snake appear to, whereupon the magic woman eats a magic apple....and...yup....Ge nesis is NOT literal...don't you get it?
The funny thing is, tell a fundamentalist like you that his wife is cheating on him, he's going to want hard evidence like a video, not that you saw it in a dream or an ancient text predicted it would happen...tell him the the book next to his bed is magic and contains the dictated word of the creator of the universe and he requires no evidence at all; this is called the dichotomy of the religious mind.
Whatever you say troll. You're the same person who said I lived in a trailer park somewhere in the Southern United States. lol . . . I see you like building houses of cards. ::)
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Lol, no, not necessarily, simply that at some point, everyone makes the decision to believe or not, for themselves. At least, the educated have that option.
It is true though that uneducated, poor communities tend to be more unquestioningly and fervently religious. You have only to look around the world.
Oh I disagree. Just look at the number of parochial schools in this country, secondary and post secondary. There are churches all over the place in this country, regardless of how poor or well off the communities are. Also, there really isn't much correlation between education and belief in God, based on the "statistics" I've seen.
Anecdotally, I have a number of highly educated friends and acquaintances who are "unquestioningly and fervently religious."
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Oh I disagree. Just look at the number of parochial schools in this country, secondary and post secondary. There are churches all over the place in this country, regardless of how poor or well off the communities are. Also, there really isn't much correlation between education and belief in God, based on the "statistics" I've seen.
Anecdotally, I have a number of highly educated friends and acquaintances who are "unquestioningly and fervently religious."
Maybe they believe in 'belief in belief' and not the silly stories of the Bible?
I am not a troll.
Why do you believe that Genesis is literally true?
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Maybe they believe in 'belief in belief' and not the silly stories of the Bible?
I am not a troll.
Why do you believe that Genesis is literally true?
What is "belief in belief"?
If you're not a troll, you're doing a fine job of imitating one.
I believe the Bible is the word of God, because I'm a Christian and I've spent a lot of time developing a relationship with God, praying, testing his promises in the Bible, and seeing tangible results from those promises. I have all the proof I need that His word is true based on my own experiences and those of others. And no I can't give you scientific proof of my religious beliefs.
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1. Does human suffering play a big part in you considering yourself an atheist?
2. Do you believe in free will?
3. Do you believe in personal responsibility?
1. No. I just have no proof of a God. That is all.
2. Free will, if by that you mean there is no divine power deciding what we're going to do. And I definitely believe in responsibility for one's actions.
But I also believe that humans, social systems and gender et al have significant influence on the ability for persons to make choices.
Eg, I do not believe that women in Saudi Arabia have much choice but to become fundamentalist Muslims, even though that religion works against them.
Same thing with a young kid growing up in a bad neighborhood. The chances are much higher that he will become a criminal. Because that are where his opportunities lies.
3. See above.
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What is "belief in belief"?
If you're not a troll, you're doing a fine job of imitating one.
I believe the Bible is the word of God, because I'm a Christian and I've spent a lot of time developing a relationship with God, praying, testing his promises in the Bible, and seeing tangible results from those promises. I have all the proof I need that His word is true based on my own experiences and those of others. And no I can't give you scientific proof of my religious beliefs.
Good post, Beach Bum!
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Good post, Beach Bum!
The Bible Thumper's union....
A Christian posts something, anything and then...
Good post... ::)
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The Bible Thumper's union....
A Christian posts something, anything and then...
Good post... ::)
Nah, that wasn't just any post. It was a good post. ;D
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1. Does human suffering play a big part in you considering yourself an atheist?
2. Do you believe in free will?
3. Do you believe in personal responsibility?
1) yes
2) yes
3) yes
see us athiests do good cause we think its the right thing to do...we dont need a reward at the end like the religious folks..reward being heaven.
hense we r morally superior :P
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see us athiests do good cause we think its the right thing to do...we dont need a reward at the end like the religious folks..reward being heaven.
hense we r morally superior :P
You should learn a little humility from your fellow atheist, Roy Hattersley.
"We atheists have to accept that most believers are better human beings"
Roy Hattersley
Monday September 12, 2005
Guardian
Hurricane Katrina did not stay on the front pages for long. Yesterday's Red Cross appeal for an extra 40,000 volunteer workers was virtually ignored.
The disaster will return to the headlines when one sort of newspaper reports a particularly gruesome discovery or another finds additional evidence of President Bush's negligence. But month after month of unremitting suffering is not news. Nor is the monotonous performance of the unpleasant tasks that relieve the pain and anguish of the old, the sick and the homeless - the tasks in which the Salvation Army specialise.
The Salvation Army has been given a special status as provider-in-chief of American disaster relief. But its work is being augmented by all sorts of other groups. Almost all of them have a religious origin and character.
Notable by their absence are teams from rationalist societies, free thinkers' clubs and atheists' associations - the sort of people who not only scoff at religion's intellectual absurdity but also regard it as a positive force for evil.
The arguments against religion are well known and persuasive. Faith schools, as they are now called, have left sectarian scars on Northern Ireland. Stem-cell research is forbidden because an imaginary God - who is not enough of a philosopher to realise that the ingenuity of a scientist is just as natural as the instinct of Rousseau's noble savage - condemns what he does not understand and the churches that follow his teaching forbid their members to pursue cures for lethal diseases.
Yet men and women who believe that the Pope is the devil incarnate, or (conversely) regard his ex cathedra pronouncements as holy writ, are the people most likely to take the risks and make the sacrifices involved in helping others. Last week a middle-ranking officer of the Salvation Army, who gave up a well-paid job to devote his life to the poor, attempted to convince me that homosexuality is a mortal sin.
Late at night, on the streets of one of our great cities, that man offers friendship as well as help to the most degraded and (to those of a censorious turn of mind) degenerate human beings who exist just outside the boundaries of our society. And he does what he believes to be his Christian duty without the slightest suggestion of disapproval. Yet, for much of his time, he is meeting needs that result from conduct he regards as intrinsically wicked.
Civilised people do not believe that drug addiction and male prostitution offend against divine ordinance. But those who do are the men and women most willing to change the fetid bandages, replace the sodden sleeping bags and - probably most difficult of all - argue, without a trace of impatience, that the time has come for some serious medical treatment. Good works, John Wesley insisted, are no guarantee of a place in heaven. But they are most likely to be performed by people who believe that heaven exists.
The correlation is so clear that it is impossible to doubt that faith and charity go hand in hand. The close relationship may have something to do with the belief that we are all God's children, or it may be the result of a primitive conviction that, although helping others is no guarantee of salvation, it is prudent to be recorded in a book of gold, like James Leigh Hunt's Abu Ben Adam, as "one who loves his fellow men". Whatever the reason, believers answer the call, and not just the Salvation Army. When I was a local councillor, the Little Sisters of the Poor - right at the other end of the theological spectrum - did the weekly washing for women in back-to-back houses who were too ill to scrub for themselves.
It ought to be possible to live a Christian life without being a Christian or, better still, to take Christianity à la carte. The Bible is so full of contradictions that we can accept or reject its moral advice according to taste. Yet men and women who, like me, cannot accept the mysteries and the miracles do not go out with the Salvation Army at night.
The only possible conclusion is that faith comes with a packet of moral imperatives that, while they do not condition the attitude of all believers, influence enough of them to make them morally superior to atheists like me. The truth may make us free. But it has not made us as admirable as the average captain in the Salvation Army.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5283079-103390,00.html
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You should learn a little humility from your fellow atheist, Roy Hattersley.
i'm not really a very humulous person!
i'm honest though! ;)
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Good post, Beach Bum!
Thanks loco. :)
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i'm not really a very humulous person!
i'm honest though! ;)
Honest is good. :)