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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: calmus on February 16, 2008, 12:02:38 PM
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The breaking point for a lot of parents has got to be near.
Wonder what the legislation will look like? And how do you enforce it? Everybody I know owns multiple guns.
Seems like there is a link between mental illness and these shootings. Maybe that's a place to start. Still will be difficult though.
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Seems like there is a link between mental illness and these shootings.
That and prescription drugs it seems.
Guns aren't the problem.
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The breaking point for a lot of parents has got to be near.
Wonder what the legislation will look like? And how do you enforce it? Everybody I know owns multiple guns.
Seems like there is a link between mental illness and these shootings. Maybe that's a place to start. Still will be difficult though.
You think, Einstein? ;D
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You think, Einstein? ;D
I sure as hell hope you don't own any guns. :-X
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My uncle gave me a pistol for my Birthday when I was 14. 8)
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I got a 410 on my 10th birthday. My grandfather wanted to give it to me even earlier, but my mom said she would destroy the gun and never allow him in the house again.
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I own a love gun.
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but my mom said she would destroy the gun and never allow him in the house again.
lol sounds like my mom. ;D
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Who cares about failed parents with lunatic kids. :)
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The breaking point for a lot of parents has got to be near.
Wonder what the legislation will look like? And how do you enforce it? Everybody I know owns multiple guns.
Seems like there is a link between mental illness and these shootings. Maybe that's a place to start. Still will be difficult though.
Seems to me that damn near everyone is on some type of pill for anxiety or depression, etc.
We keep masking the symptoms, instead of addressing the real issue - and that is the way we live in modern society.
Somehow I see growing up on a farm, growing your own food, raising animals, working the land as very hard work - but also a life that is rewarding and filled with purpose, where everyone in the family does a job.
Compare that to today where the average child can cruise through school, eat pre-made food, and the extent of laboring for survival involves taking out the trash. Everything else revolves around recreation (sports, TV, video games, etc.)
I know that as a human being I want things to be easy (with my business, with my day job, with everything), but I notice that the struggles are what give me purpose.
If you like the movie the Matrix, they say how "entire crops were lost" when the human world was free from pain and suffering.
Maybe life is just too easy in modern times, and this is how nature fights to achieve equilibrium.
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The breaking point for a lot of parents has got to be near.
Wonder what the legislation will look like? And how do you enforce it? Everybody I know owns multiple guns.
Seems like there is a link between mental illness and these shootings. Maybe that's a place to start. Still will be difficult though.
definitly i think what most people dont see are the little arbitrary gun bans that are passed like the last one that didnt do much banned flash hiders, pistol grips, bayonet lugs, etc.... doesnt really do much but it does set ground work for future bans, so even those need to be thought through and voted against if thats what you deem necessary, dont just sit there and do nothing b/c before you know it we will be criminals for having guns...guns are not the problem
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definitly i think what most people dont see are the little arbitrary gun bans that are passed like the last one that didnt do much banned flash hiders, pistol grips, bayonet lugs, etc.... doesnt really do much but it does set ground work for future bans, so even those need to be thought through and voted against if thats what you deem necessary, dont just sit there and do nothing b/c before you know it we will be criminals for having guns...guns are not the problem
Exactly. The camel gets its nose under the tent, before it moves in with the rest of its body.
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Seems to me that damn near everyone is on some type of pill for anxiety or depression, etc.
We keep masking the symptoms, instead of addressing the real issue - and that is the way we live in modern society.
Somehow I see growing up on a farm, growing your own food, raising animals, working the land as very hard work - but also a life that is rewarding and filled with purpose, where everyone in the family does a job.
Compare that to today where the average child can cruise through school, eat pre-made food, and the extent of laboring for survival involves taking out the trash. Everything else revolves around recreation (sports, TV, video games, etc.)
I know that as a human being I want things to be easy (with my business, with my day job, with everything), but I notice that the struggles are what give me purpose.
If you like the movie the Matrix, they say how "entire crops were lost" when the human world was free from pain and suffering.
Maybe life is just too easy in modern times, and this is how nature fights to achieve equilibrium.
I agree that we are getting "soft" but how does that tie into mass shootings? I'm just trying to get the connection.
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I agree that we are getting "soft" but how does that tie into mass shootings? I'm just trying to get the connection.
there is no value for life.
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What stormshadow is referring to is that there is some kind of alienation in society, because man cannot see the "fruits of his labor" any more. This alienation leads to people going nuts/postal. Quite an old idea, it was actually something that Marx wrote about.
From Wikipedia:
Marx's theory of alienation (Entfremdung in German), as expressed in the writings of young Karl Marx, refers to the separation of things that naturally belong together, or to antagonism between things that are properly in harmony. In the concept's most important use, it refers to the alienation of people from aspects of their "human nature" (Gattungswesen, usually translated as 'species-essence' or 'species-being'). He believed that alienation is a systematic result of capitalism.
Marx's Theory of Alienation is based upon his observation that, in emerging industrial production - under capitalism - workers inevitably lose control of their lives and selves in not having any control of their work. Workers, thus, never become autonomous, self-realized human beings in any significant sense (except the way the bourgeois wants the worker to be realized).
There is some truth to this.
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What stormshadow is referring to is that there is some kind of alienation in society, because man cannot see the "fruits of his labor" any more. This alienation leads to people going nuts/postal. Quite an old idea, it was actually something that Marx wrote about.
From Wikipedia:
Marx's theory of alienation (Entfremdung in German), as expressed in the writings of young Karl Marx, refers to the separation of things that naturally belong together, or to antagonism between things that are properly in harmony. In the concept's most important use,.
Marx's Theory of Alienation is based upon his observation that, in emerging industrial production - under capitalism - workers inevitably lose control of their lives and selves in not having any control of their work. Workers, thus, never become autonomous, self-realized human beings in any significant sense (except the way the bourgeois wants the worker to be realized).
There is some truth to this.
it refers to the alienation of people from aspects of their "human nature" (Gattungswesen, usually translated as 'species-essence' or 'species-being'). He believed that alienation is a systematic result of capitalism.
Damn. Marx hit a bullseye on that one.
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Die Amis und ihre Gewehre; one day it will be the death of them all.
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Die Amis und ihre Gewehre; one day it will be the death of them all.
lol dont worry if we go, europe is next
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i watch the news all day, most days.
the 5 shootings this week weren't a really big story.
perhaps the media (msnbc and cnn) are learning not to feed the attention whore nature of the idiot shooters. the one in n. illionois got some coverage on friday, but was very small considering how big an event it was.
there will never be a concerted effort to ban guns. There was in the late 90s after columbine and it didn't stick - some ppl lost their political fortune bettering on the gun ban train. You know why? Because most issues - the war, abortion, gay marriage - don't affect us much. Some issues - the economy, illegal immigration, affect our wallet a bit.
But issues like health care, and guns (being able to protect your loved ones), mean the most to people. And after 9/11, gun banning lost any traction.
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Seems to me that damn near everyone is on some type of pill for anxiety or depression, etc.
We keep masking the symptoms, instead of addressing the real issue - and that is the way we live in modern society.
Somehow I see growing up on a farm, growing your own food, raising animals, working the land as very hard work - but also a life that is rewarding and filled with purpose, where everyone in the family does a job.
Compare that to today where the average child can cruise through school, eat pre-made food, and the extent of laboring for survival involves taking out the trash. Everything else revolves around recreation (sports, TV, video games, etc.)
I know that as a human being I want things to be easy (with my business, with my day job, with everything), but I notice that the struggles are what give me purpose.
If you like the movie the Matrix, they say how "entire crops were lost" when the human world was free from pain and suffering.
Maybe life is just too easy in modern times, and this is how nature fights to achieve equilibrium.
yeah - look they're not all living on farms in Europe but they don't seem to have a problem with mass shootings.
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yeah - look they're not all living on farms in Europe but they don't seem to have a problem with mass shootings.
yeah - they just try to batter each other to death after soccer games.
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"Guns don't kill, people do" ::)
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i watch the news all day, most days.
the 5 shootings this week weren't a really big story.
perhaps the media (msnbc and cnn) are learning not to feed the attention whore nature of the idiot shooters. the one in n. illionois got some coverage on friday, but was very small considering how big an event it was.
there will never be a concerted effort to ban guns. There was in the late 90s after columbine and it didn't stick - some ppl lost their political fortune bettering on the gun ban train. You know why? Because most issues - the war, abortion, gay marriage - don't affect us much. Some issues - the economy, illegal immigration, affect our wallet a bit.
But issues like health care, and guns (being able to protect your loved ones), mean the most to people. And after 9/11, gun banning lost any traction.
May you guys shoot yourselves to kingdom come!
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and guns (being able to protect your loved ones), mean the most to people.
Where do you live? Downtown Detroit?
I've never thought of "protecting" anybody or anything with my guns. I have a SIG P220 somewhere around here, but I can't even remember the last time I used it.
I enjoy shooting, hunting or target, but I'm sure I could find other hobbies.
Real reason most people don't want to give up their guns is that they don't like being told what to do by the government.
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Where do you live? Downtown Detroit?
I've never thought of "protecting" anybody or anything with my guns. I have a SIG P220 somewhere around here, but I can't even remember the last time I used it.
I enjoy shooting, hunting or target, but I'm sure I could find other hobbies.
Real reason most people don't want to give up their guns is that they don't like being told what to do by the government.
In SW Florida, there have been a string of home invasions in the last 6 months. Teams of 2-3 men in ski masks kick down door in dead of night and tie people up. Several of the people have been shot, even while cooperating. The police do zero good, because when you're awoken with someone kicking in your bedroom window, you have about 3 seconds to react. Finding your cell and dialing 911 isn't usually possible. Picking up your glock and putting 15 rounds into whatever is kicking in your bedroom window - not 100% foolproof but it sure does help even the odds a bit.
I've carried a gun for 11 years now. Every day. It's just another tool. I've had flat tires in the middle of night on interstate, been accosted by bad people before. Never pointed not revealed it. But it's there should I ever find myself in a place where someone intends to harm me.
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In SW Florida, there have been a string of home invasions in the last 6 months. Teams of 2-3 men in ski masks kick down door in dead of night and tie people up. Several of the people have been shot, even while cooperating. The police do zero good, because when you're awoken with someone kicking in your bedroom window, you have about 3 seconds to react. Finding your cell and dialing 911 isn't usually possible. Picking up your glock and putting 15 rounds into whatever is kicking in your bedroom window - not 100% foolproof but it sure does help even the odds a bit.
I've carried a gun for 11 years now. Every day. It's just another tool. I've had flat tires in the middle of night on interstate, been accosted by bad people before. Never pointed not revealed it. But it's there should I ever find myself in a place where someone intends to harm me.
You are really fucking all American 240. Republican devotee running around with a concealed weapon...fucking awesome! ::)
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i'm not 'running around with a concealed weapon'.
Im' living my life like many in rural areas where dangers can vary and police response times aren't that great.
a small % of people are always going to run into random violence - it's undeniable, right? why not be prepared for that small chance it'll happen to you?
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i'm not 'running around with a concealed weapon'.
Im' living my life like many in rural areas where dangers can vary and police response times aren't that great.
a small % of people are always going to run into random violence - it's undeniable, right? why not be prepared for that small chance it'll happen to you?
Meh, glad I don't live there....
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Repealing the 2nd amendment won't likely happen...too many procedural barriers.
According to the Courts, the 2nd Am. does not guarantee an individual right to carry a gun anyways.
However, if it were repealed and if the 2nd A. was the source for individual gun rights, then this issue would devolve to the States to regulate.
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i'm not 'running around with a concealed weapon'.
Im' living my life like many in rural areas where dangers can vary and police response times aren't that great.
a small % of people are always going to run into random violence - it's undeniable, right? why not be prepared for that small chance it'll happen to you?
Its never some redneck who's had a gun his whole life, that does these shootings..its always some mal-adjusted geek. I'm like 240..carry concealed occasionally. The news in KC, where I'm stationed is all murders..mostly in the inner city ...KCK, where the bangers live...but unlike many cities in the north, the good and bad sections run into each other. If u don't want a gun...get a big dog. I have both but put my faith in the pistol. And 240...gotta love unloading the entire mag into the prick comment.. ;D
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Meh, glad I don't live there....
you say that in every thread well we're glad you dont live here too
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:D
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you say that in every thread well we're glad you dont live here too
It's entirely mutual. In Europe your obsession wth guns would fall on deaf ears.
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Oh I know...Europeans are so much better off. I mean the mult-culturalism that has completely stangled them...or the fact that they pay huge taxes...the list is endless.
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It's entirely mutual. In Europe your obsession wth guns would fall on deaf ears.
and thats why im proud to be an AMERICAN
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and thats why im proud to be an AMERICAN
Hahah....you are proud of the geographical accident of your birth?! :D Amazing.
If you had been born (once again due to accident) in France, you would be saying you are proud to be Fench, or in Korea likewise.
Nationalism, patriotism are silly arbitrary creeds; the truth is the only thing one CAN be proud of is one's personal accomplisments, those things not occurring as a result of arbitrariness such as your birth country.
Else I would say I am proud to be a New Yorker, from the greatest, most amazing city in the USA. Yes it is that but I am NOT proud of it.
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Oh I know...Europeans are so much better off. I mean the mult-culturalism that has completely stangled them...or the fact that they pay huge taxes...the list is endless.
Yes, Europe has made a mistake with Islam.
Yes they have higher taxes but....they are better educated, live longer, are healthier and have better health care.
So much better off no, better off yes.
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Hahah....you are proud of the geographical accident of your birth?! :D Amazing.
If you had been born (once again due to accident) in France, you would be saying you are proud to be Fench, or in Korea likewise.
Nationalism, patriotism are silly arbitrary creeds; the truth is the only thing one CAN be proud of is one's personal accomplisments, those things not occurring as a result of arbitrariness such as your birth country.
Else I would say I am proud to be a New Yorker, from the greatest, most amazing city in the USA. Yes it is that but I am NOT proud of it.
well seeing as my mother is an immigrant I could have been born in any number of countries but she chose the USA so therefor it was no accident. I pity you and if your country is full of people who share your outlook on things your country is indeed doomed...your the type of person that will tuck tail and run when the shit hits the fan instead of stand beside your fellow country man, whether you want to admit it or not the majority of people around the world will pass judgement on you for one reason or another and if their going to lump us into a category i.e. Americans, then we might as well share some solidarity.
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well seeing as my mother is an immigrant I could have been born in any number of countries but she chose the USA so therefor it was no accident. I pity you and if your country is full of people who share your outlook on things your country is indeed doomed...your the type of person that will tuck tail and run when the shit hits the fan instead of stand beside your fellow country man, whether you want to admit it or not the majority of people around the world will pass judgement on you for one reason or another and if their going to lump us into a category i.e. Americans, then we might as well share some solidarity.
I am American. I come from NYC, greatest city in the country. I have travelled the country and the world.
Most Americans don't realise how many options are out there, financially, experientially or otherwise. I have and I am taking advantage of it. The world is vast and has much to offer, why spend your whole life in a tiny corner of it?
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Its never some redneck who's had a gun his whole life, that does these shootings..its always some mal-adjusted geek. I'm like 240..carry concealed occasionally. The news in KC, where I'm stationed is all murders..mostly in the inner city ...KCK, where the bangers live...but unlike many cities in the north, the good and bad sections run into each other. If u don't want a gun...get a big dog. I have both but put my faith in the pistol. And 240...gotta love unloading the entire mag into the prick comment.. ;D
LOL...
My dad was a federal firearms dealer, so I was shooting an M-16 in our modified basement-shooting range at age 12. I never really liked them, but grew to accept them as a part of regular life.
I grew up on welfare in the ghetto near cleveland, and moved to a florida trailer park in my teens. Borrowed my way thru college then started working my ass off. I'm still not rich, probably never will be, but I live in a pretty nice area now near naples FL, where it's pretty safe, but shit still does occasionally happen. I know that most of the violence stays in the drug areas, but the recent home invasions were elderly and families, in nice areas. Just kicked in bedroom door (many have them attached to lanai and beat up/tied up people while robbing them. That shit is scary. Statistically, it'll never happen, but damn, if it does, you gotta be ready.
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LOL...
My dad was a federal firearms dealer, so I was shooting an M-16 in our modified basement-shooting range at age 12. I never really liked them, but grew to accept them as a part of regular life.
I grew up on welfare in the ghetto near cleveland, and moved to a florida trailer park in my teens. Borrowed my way thru college then started working my ass off. I'm still not rich, probably never will be, but I live in a pretty nice area now near naples FL, where it's pretty safe, but shit still does occasionally happen. I know that most of the violence stays in the drug areas, but the recent home invasions were elderly and families, in nice areas. Just kicked in bedroom door (many have them attached to lanai and beat up/tied up people while robbing them. That shit is scary. Statistically, it'll never happen, but damn, if it does, you gotta be ready.
You do realize that many(Most?) states require you to demonstrate that you feared imminent death/serious bodily injury before you can shoot to kill? And you can't shoot to protect property (except maybe in TX and FL).
You're a little paranoid, 240....maybe it's because you grew up in cleveland ghetto. If someone somehow managed to break into my house, I'd probably go for my bat first. I don't even keep my guns loaded or unlocked. Sometimes I turn on my alarm before I go to bed........actually, if it was just me at home I'd probably sneak out of the house and wait for the cops. If I was pissed, felt threatened, I have a muzzle-loader in my garage.
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yes- i'm well aware of the florida statutes. I've been shoved, punched, etc, and never once thought of drawing my gun. I took the punch, let everything get broken up, and walked away. Despite the new laws jeb passed, I'd still make EVERY effort to flee the scene. I go out of my way to avoid conflict, I diffuse fights anytime I see them developing, and I'm a peacemaker in life, for the most part. I believe guns are a tool that should only be used in life/death scenarios.
A lot of gun nuts WANT to shoot someone. I PRAY I'll never be in a situation where I need it. I hope I grow to be an old man and never have to touch it. I know I'm a little paranoid, and until 3 years ago, I wasn't too bad. Then 2 armed men walked into my brother's pharmacy with masks, buckets, and a plan to execute him and the owner in the back room once they found the delivery of oxy from that day. He shot one in the stomach and chose not to shoot the other in the back as he fled. He has nightmares to this day about it - and the guy with a 45 round in his stomach lived. He's a little messed up now, very paranoid, and very rattled from it. I pray that never happens to me.
So I admit I'm a little paranoid... but know that I'd never shooot anything that wasn't about to kill me first. I am very emotional about gun rights tho-- until recently, I was a single issue voter on gun rights.
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yes- i'm well aware of the florida statutes. I've been shoved, punched, etc, and never once thought of drawing my gun. I took the punch, let everything get broken up, and walked away. Despite the new laws jeb passed, I'd still make EVERY effort to flee the scene. I go out of my way to avoid conflict, I diffuse fights anytime I see them developing, and I'm a peacemaker in life, for the most part. I believe guns are a tool that should only be used in life/death scenarios.
A lot of gun nuts WANT to shoot someone. I PRAY I'll never be in a situation where I need it. I hope I grow to be an old man and never have to touch it. I know I'm a little paranoid, and until 3 years ago, I wasn't too bad. Then 2 armed men walked into my brother's pharmacy with masks, buckets, and a plan to execute him and the owner in the back room once they found the delivery of oxy from that day. He shot one in the stomach and chose not to shoot the other in the back as he fled. He has nightmares to this day about it - and the guy with a 45 round in his stomach lived. He's a little messed up now, very paranoid, and very rattled from it. I pray that never happens to me.
So I admit I'm a little paranoid... but know that I'd never shooot anything that wasn't about to kill me first. I am very emotional about gun rights tho-- until recently, I was a single issue voter on gun rights.
As long as we rob, pillage and violate the rest of the the world, you'll be ok 240!
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I am American. I come from NYC, greatest city in the country. I have travelled the country and the world.
Most Americans don't realise how many options are out there, financially, experientially or otherwise. I have and I am taking advantage of it. The world is vast and has much to offer, why spend your whole life in a tiny corner of it?
lol i dont know about NYC being the greatest city in the country, but i guess thats a matter of perspective, I too have traveled quite a bit throughout the country and the world, not as much around the world but ive been to a few countries outside of north america and I agree that everybody should see other cultures and countries. It helps bring perspective to your own culture and helps you realize that different cultures arent screwed up or backwards just different than our own, I think the problem with alot of people is that they judge other people by their own standards not the standards of the person their judging. Where do you live now trap?
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lol i dont know about NYC being the greatest city in the country, but i guess thats a matter of perspective, I too have traveled quite a bit throughout the country and the world, not as much around the world but ive been to a few countries outside of north america and I agree that everybody should see other cultures and countries. It helps bring perspective to your own culture and helps you realize that different cultures arent screwed up or backwards just different than our own, I think the problem with alot of people is that they judge other people by their own standards not the standards of the person their judging. Where do you live now trap?
NYC is not the greatest city in the country. :)
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I've traveled all over the world....I'd take America in a heartbeat. I don't need to feel coddled by my government. As far as being better educated...i think that might be true in what serves as middle and highschool but our colleges and universities are second to none. I also think not everybody needs or deserves a college education....didn't 40% of Brits under 25 believe Churchill and Richard the Lion Hearted to be myths. Great educational system. None of this will matter when Islam rolls u all back to the 7th century and ur praying for gun toting America to come save ur asses again. The biggest differance is that the average American doesn't look down their noses at Europe...they might not even consider Europe, however Europe seems to have a fascination with trying to knock us downa peg. Its pure jealousy and trying to reliev past glories. I love Europe..but I'm an American...my mother came from Ireland in 67' and my dad was second generation Italian...both sides choose this country. No accident of birth.
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I've traveled all over the world....I'd take America in a heartbeat. I don't need to feel coddled by my government. As far as being better educated...i think that might be true in what serves as middle and highschool but our colleges and universities are second to none. I also think not everybody needs or deserves a college education....didn't 40% of Brits under 25 believe Churchill and Richard the Lion Hearted to be myths. Great educational system. None of this will matter when Islam rolls u all back to the 7th century and ur praying for gun toting America to come save ur asses again. The biggest differance is that the average American doesn't look down their noses at Europe...they might not even consider Europe, however Europe seems to have a fascination with trying to knock us downa peg. Its pure jealousy and trying to reliev past glories. I love Europe..but I'm an American...my mother came from Ireland in 67' and my dad was second generation Italian...both sides choose this country. No accident of birth.
An accident inasmuch as you had no choice in the matter. Arbitrary.
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So based on your idiotic theory, i shouldn't be proud of my country right. I should be a citizen of the world. I guess all the people trying to get to this country from all over the world are mistaken.
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NYC is not the greatest city in the country. :)
Silly statement.
NYC has the largest population.
It is the financial centre of the country.
It is the cultural centre of the country.
It is the artistic centre of the country.
It is the cullinary centre of the country.
It is the place most tourists visit when they come to the USA.
There isn't another city in the country that can compare with it.
You have a bunch of beaches in Honolulu, so what?
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Boston is the greatest city in the world. ;D
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So based on your idiotic theory, i shouldn't be proud of my country right. I should be a citizen of the world. I guess all the people trying to get to this country from all over the world are mistaken.
You have misunderstood me. I didn't say be a citizen of the world; I said be an individual. Express pride only in those things you have personally accomplished, not your place of birth or any other arbitrary silliness. Be a citizen of yourself.
One's nationality is an artificial construct, just as nations themselves are artificial constructs; be a man of yourself, expressing pride only in your own deeds, not those to which you hold no claim.
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lol i dont know about NYC being the greatest city in the country, but i guess thats a matter of perspective, I too have traveled quite a bit throughout the country and the world, not as much around the world but ive been to a few countries outside of north america and I agree that everybody should see other cultures and countries. It helps bring perspective to your own culture and helps you realize that different cultures arent screwed up or backwards just different than our own, I think the problem with alot of people is that they judge other people by their own standards not the standards of the person their judging. Where do you live now trap?
South Korea.
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I've served in uniform since I was 17....my family has fought in every war since WW1. I've had relatives in the Russian, German, British and ANZAC armies. My relatives served on both sides in WW2....My cousin walked out of the Chosin. My dad did 2 tours in Nam as well as my uncle. I had a cousin with the Marines in Desert storm. And I've been in since....I've done my part for my country....my personel accomplishments as well as most of my families' have been tied to the well being of this country. Self -interest is great I guess but somebody has to provide safety and security...somebody has to fight fires...police cities...give of themselves in order to provide for the public good. Pride in ones country is a great thing.
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I've served in uniform since I was 17....my family has fought in every war since WW1. I've had relatives in the Russian, German, British and ANZAC armies. My relatives served on both sides in WW2....My cousin walked out of the Chosin. My dad did 2 tours in Nam as well as my uncle. I had a cousin with the Marines in Desert storm. And I've been in since....I've done my part for my country....my personel accomplishments as well as most of my families' have been tied to the well being of this country. Self -interest is great I guess but somebody has to provide safety and security...somebody has to fight fires...police cities...give of themselves in order to provide for the public good. Pride in ones country is a great thing.
Pride in one's country leads to nationalism, feelings of superiority and ultimately as we saw in Nazi Germany living horror.
I never said you cannot have pride in being in the military; maybe you have gunned down the most enemies in your unit or blew something important up. One can express pride in these things.
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I've done neither....but pride in ones country does not lead to Nazi'sm unless ur in Germany in 1931. We've had pride like that in this country since it was founded. I'd say we're doing fine. U love New York...let some Parisian disparge NYC and I bet ur accent and NY pride would come out in a minute. I travel all over the place....I never try to be the ugly American....
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Silly statement.
NYC has the largest population.
It is the financial centre of the country.
It is the cultural centre of the country.
It is the artistic centre of the country.
It is the cullinary centre of the country.
It is the place most tourists visit when they come to the USA.
There isn't another city in the country that can compare with it.
You have a bunch of beaches in Honolulu, so what?
::) People save their entire lives just to spend a week or two in Honolulu. It is probably the most diverse city in the country. It is the most beautiful spot in the country and one of the most beautiful spots in the world. The air is clean. The people are awesome. The violent crime rate is extremely low. There isn't another city in the country that compares.
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And its ur city...my city has the Red Sox and Fenway park. ;D
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Silly statement.
NYC has the largest population.
It is the financial centre of the country.
It is the cultural centre of the country.
It is the artistic centre of the country.
It is the cullinary centre of the country.
It is the place most tourists visit when they come to the USA.
There isn't another city in the country that can compare with it.
You have a bunch of beaches in Honolulu, so what?
you should refer to my post above b/c you again are making the same mistake many do, NYC may be the greatest city in the country to YOU but others dont judge their greatest city on those criteria. Ever heard of a little town called New Braunfels, small po dunk little town here in Texas thats my greatest city
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And its ur city...my city has the Red Sox and Fenway park. ;D
Yeah but I don't follow baseball, outside of UH baseball. :)
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::) People save their entire lives just to spend a week or two in Honolulu. It is probably the most diverse city in the country. It is the most beautiful spot in the country and one of the most beautiful spots in the world. The air is clean. The people are awesome. The violent crime rate is extremely low. There isn't another city in the country that compares.
I think you are overlooking a little place called Cudahy, Wisconsin population 16,000. The city that was in the Guiness Book for the most bars/taverns per capita in the world....or as we called, "dead man's walk."
My hometown.
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I think you are overlooking a little place called Cudahy, Wisconsin population 16,000. The city that was in the Guiness Book for the most bars/taverns per capita in the world....or as we called, "dead man's walk."
My hometown.
[chuckle] :) I don't drink so they don't count. :) Do you guys have a beach?
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Pride in one's country leads to nationalism, feelings of superiority and ultimately as we saw in Nazi Germany living horror.
I never said you cannot have pride in being in the military; maybe you have gunned down the most enemies in your unit or blew something important up. One can express pride in these things.
I agree.
Americans should be proud to have the Constitution, and at one time a government that followed it.
We should be proud of our individual liberty that is supposed to be protected by government.
Rallying behind the Federal Government, and yelling GO USA! is just mindless bullshit for those that need an icon to follow.
That kind of behavior does far more damage to our freedom than anything else, because people don't question what is in front of them.
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I think you are overlooking a little place called Cudahy, Wisconsin population 16,000. The city that was in the Guiness Book for the most bars/taverns per capita in the world....or as we called, "dead man's walk."
My hometown.
lol awesome thats my next road trip
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I agree.
Americans should be proud to have the Constitution, and at one time a government that followed it.
We should be proud of our individual liberty that is supposed to be protected by government.
Rallying behind the Federal Government, and yelling GO USA! is just mindless bullshit for those that need an icon to follow.
That kind of behavior does far more damage to our freedom than anything else, because people don't question what is in front of them.
nobody is saying to blindly follow the government, all were saying is that pride in ones country, community and extended family is a good thing without pride in ones country there are no public outcries when things go wrong as in government as well. Our pride in our country is what leads us to want to make it a better place without pride nobody would give a shit
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nobody is saying to blindly follow the government, all were saying is that pride in ones country, community and extended family is a good thing without pride in ones country there are no public outcries when things go wrong as in government as well. Our pride in our country is what leads us to want to make it a better place without pride nobody would give a shit
Agree.
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Agree....funny how we all love our home towns. America collectively is our homw town...and we shouold do what we can to make it better. Its way to big to agree with everything that happens...but by and large America works....generally speaking if we diagreed like this on all the points we do....in some of the 3rd world shitholes we see on the news, we'd be all trying to kill each other.
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::) People save their entire lives just to spend a week or two in Honolulu. It is probably the most diverse city in the country. It is the most beautiful spot in the country and one of the most beautiful spots in the world. The air is clean. The people are awesome. The violent crime rate is extremely low. There isn't another city in the country that compares.
Pathetic...
The USA wouldn't be the USA without NYC. You think Honolulu is more diverse than NYC? Are you smoking crack?!
Do you smoke too much weed or something? Been living in Jebus land too long?
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z25/Todesfick/800px-Downtown_Honolulu.jpg)
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z25/Todesfick/800px-Honolulu01.jpg)
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z25/Todesfick/NYCSkyline.jpg)
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z25/Todesfick/new-york-city-1.jpg)
Pathetic...if you can't see the difference..... ::)
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I see alot of concrete on one hand and warm ocean on the other.
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I see a difference. THe first two pics are of a place that seems like a great place to live. The second two pics are of a place that looks like a concrete hell.
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I see a difference. THe first two pics are of a place that seems like a great place to live. The second two pics are of a place that looks like a concrete hell.
Right?
Then all of you non-NYCers should shut the fuck up about 9/11; we were the ones who actually knew people and experienced it. My mother was almost killed.
Once again; financial centre of the world and country, cultural centre, artistic centre...and the list goes on...Honolulu=beaches on a big dormant volcano...
I guess if you have no interest in culture, cuisine, world shaking financial events and are only interesting in sitting on the beach all day...well Honolulu is for you ::)
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Its NYC I get it....see ur defending ur home...sort a what this argument was all about in the first place. I like NYC. Its big and not managable but if u want it..u can find it there. Something to be said for a good Italian bakery or slice of pizza...bet u can't get that in Seoul. I prefer Boston..easier to get around...and my baseball team wins..can't be said for my football team. ;D
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Right?
Then all of you non-NYCers should shut the fuck up about 9/11; we were the ones who actually knew people and experienced it. My mother was almost killed.
Once again; financial centre of the world and country, cultural centre, artistic centre...and the list goes on...Honolulu=beaches on a big dormant volcano...
I guess if you have no interest in culture, cuisine, world shaking financial events and are only interesting in sitting on the beach all day...well Honolulu is for you ::)
lol irony is great ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :o
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lol irony is great ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :o
What irony? There was none.
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What irony? There was none.
just seems like a lot of pride in your comments
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just seems like a lot of pride in your comments
No pride. Just matter of fact statements. NYC is the financial centre of the country; that is a fact for example.
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Then all of you non-NYCers should shut the fuck up about 9/11; we were the ones who actually knew people and experienced it. My mother was almost killed.
lots of weird things out there about 911.
You don't think that anyone who didn't live in NYC should have an opinion on it?
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lots of weird things out there about 911.
You don't think that anyone who didn't live in NYC should have an opinion on it?
Sure you can have an opinion and I think 9/11 was/is mad fishy...I guess it is a bit personal. My mother was riding the line to work at exactly the time the towers fell. Plus, growing up you see the twin towers every day and then...just a bit more personal that's all....I went to school right near them.
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Sure you can have an opinion and I think 9/11 was/is mad fishy...I guess it is a bit personal. My mother was riding the line to work at exactly the time the towers fell. Plus, growing up you see the twin towers every day and then...just a bit more personal that's all....I went to school right near them.
ahhh but those are all arbitrary right so who cares
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ahhh but those are all arbitrary right so who cares
No...your argument is a non-sequitur.
After the fact that was I was arbitrarily born in NYC my mother almost lost her life and I was upset by that. That is a disconnect argument and makes no sense. The only facts that matter were A) my mother was almost killed and B) I was upset by it...
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No...your argument is a non-sequitur.
After the fact that was I was arbitrarily born in NYC my mother almost lost her life and I was upset by that. That is a disconnect argument and makes no sense. The only facts that matter were A) my mother was almost killed and B) I was upset by it...
it was meant to be, and much like your arguement before
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it was meant to be, and much like your arguement before
Hardly; I repeat be proud not of what men before you have done but only of your own deeds as an individual.
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Hardly; I repeat be proud not of what men before you have done but only of your own deeds as an individual.
I repeat pride in ones country serves a valuable purpose, what do you do in s. korea trap?
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I repeat pride in ones country serves a valuable purpose, what do you do in s. korea trap?
Sure, it's useful but utility is not a valid argument for me when it lacks truth content. Same goes for religion.
What do I do? I ask myself that everyday at work...I teach kids. Just temporary saving up for further education.
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Sure, it's useful but utility is not a valid argument for me when it lacks truth content. Same goes for religion.
What do I do? I ask myself that everyday at work...I teach kids. Just temporary saving up for further education.
are you saying that b/c nations are as you state artificial constructs? why go to s. korea to teach?
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are you saying that b/c nations are as you state artificial constructs? why go to s. korea to teach?
Yes.
S.Korea is every insiders' dirty little secret. Do some research and you will see why I am here.
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I like s. Korea...its dirty but its cheap..the people are friendly, much friendlier then Japan...
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I like s. Korea...its dirty but its cheap..the people are friendly, much friendlier then Japan...
To put it briefly to everyone that asks; S.Korea is a bank. Period.
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To put it briefly to everyone that asks; S.Korea is a bank. Period.
lol cool
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Pathetic...
The USA wouldn't be the USA without NYC. You think Honolulu is more diverse than NYC? Are you smoking crack?!
Do you smoke too much weed or something? Been living in Jebus land too long?
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z25/Todesfick/800px-Downtown_Honolulu.jpg)
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z25/Todesfick/800px-Honolulu01.jpg)
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z25/Todesfick/NYCSkyline.jpg)
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z25/Todesfick/new-york-city-1.jpg)
Pathetic...if you can't see the difference..... ::)
Are YOU on crack???? Been a paranoid anti-religious extremist for too long? Let's deal with the "facts":
Diversity
From the year 2000, Honolulu had the following racial makeup
46 percent Asian
21 percent white
19 percent mixed race (two or more--often more)
8 percent Pacific Islander
2 percent black
1 percent "other races"
.25 percent Native American
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_and_County_of_Honolulu#Demographics
The mayor of Honolulu is a Samoan Mormon.
The City Council consists of a white female as chair, and other members are named Apo, Cachola, Dela Cruz, Djou, Garcia, Kobayashi, Okino, and Tam.
The City attorney is Carrie Okinaga (Japanese female).
The City prosecutor is Peter Carlisle. Okay, he's a white male. :)
Our Governor is a Jewish female.
Lt. Gov. is Hawaiian.
Senate president is Asian female.
House leader is Asian male.
Hawaii Supreme Court consists of Korean (Chief Justice), Jewish male, Japanese female, and white male. All of these folks are in Honolulu.
The business community is just as diverse. The food is just as diverse.
How does NYC compare?
Environment
As I type this, the weather in Honolulu is 79 degrees. It's 38 degrees in NYC. Where would most people rather be?
No smog in this city. How about NYC?
We have more than the most beautiful beaches in the world, we have mountains, snow (on the Big Island), hiking, etc. NYC, on the other hand, is cement city.
Crime
“Honolulu finished at or near the bottom of the 20 largest U.S. cities in terms of the number of reported incidents of violent and property crime in 2006, according to statistics released yesterday by the FBI.
Honolulu ranked 20th in the nation in the number of violent crimes and 16th in property crime, according to the FBI. New York City reported the most crimes of any city in the United States last year, according to the report.” http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Sep/25/ln/hawaii709250344.html
I guess this explains why NYC had a "street crimes unit." Never heard of any such thing in Honolulu.
Arts/Culture
Obviously, NYC has Broadway and is the probably the center of the arts in this country. But Honolulu has pretty much everything NYC has on a much smaller scale. All of the shows come here. We have the opera (pretty gay), the symphony, concerts, cultural centers, etc.
The People
We have what's called the "Aloha Spirit" here. People get along. It's very nice. We also have what's called "ohana" (family). People take care of each other. Contrast that to the often rude New Yorker mentality. I remember seeing a documentary about how people die in NYC because drivers refuse to pull over for ambulances. :-\ That said, I like New Yorkers because they're often brutally honest. Many of them have a hard time here though, because that type of attitude does not play well in Hawaii.
I could look up the quality of life and longevity, which is probably far superior in Honolulu, but I'm about done for now. :)
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Its funny, we have an upcoming exercise...half of us are going to FT Drum, NY and half are going to Honolulu....I,ve never seen grown men whine more about going anywhere, then those headed to Drum. I'm growing to Drum myself and am a 1 man show so it was a forgone conclusion. I think heading to the Islands would be a hell of alot better.
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gun ban=bench moving to another country.
bench
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Its funny, we have an upcoming exercise...half of us are going to FT Drum, NY and half are going to Honolulu....I,ve never seen grown men whine more about going anywhere, then those headed to Drum. I'm growing to Drum myself and am a 1 man show so it was a forgone conclusion. I think heading to the Islands would be a hell of alot better.
I'd be crying too. :) When I was in, Drum was considered arguably the worst duty station in the Army next to Fort Polk. Is it still that way?
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I'd be crying too. :) When I was in, Drum was considered arguably the worst duty station in the Army next to Fort Polk. Is it still that way?
i have worked with guys that have told me that,the worst place i have ever been is the shitty side of ****.
i will tell you after i go to my extended de-briefing.
bench
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i have worked with guys that have told me that,the worst place i have ever been is the shitty side of ****.
i will tell you after i go to my extended de-briefing.
bench
I think it was known as the "arm pit" of the Army. Can't remember that was Drum or Polk?
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Are YOU on crack???? Been a paranoid anti-religious extremist for too long? Let's deal with the "facts":
Diversity
From the year 2000, Honolulu had the following racial makeup
46 percent Asian
21 percent white
19 percent mixed race (two or more--often more)
8 percent Pacific Islander
2 percent black
1 percent "other races"
.25 percent Native American
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_and_County_of_Honolulu#Demographics
The mayor of Honolulu is a Samoan Mormon.
The City Council consists of a white female as chair, and other members are named Apo, Cachola, Dela Cruz, Djou, Garcia, Kobayashi, Okino, and Tam.
The City attorney is Carrie Okinaga (Japanese female).
The City prosecutor is Peter Carlisle. Okay, he's a white male. :)
Our Governor is a Jewish female.
Lt. Gov. is Hawaiian.
Senate president is Asian female.
House leader is Asian male.
Hawaii Supreme Court consists of Korean (Chief Justice), Jewish male, Japanese female, and white male. All of these folks are in Honolulu.
The business community is just as diverse. The food is just as diverse.
How does NYC compare?
Environment
As I type this, the weather in Honolulu is 79 degrees. It's 38 degrees in NYC. Where would most people rather be?
No smog in this city. How about NYC?
We have more than the most beautiful beaches in the world, we have mountains, snow (on the Big Island), hiking, etc. NYC, on the other hand, is cement city.
Crime
“Honolulu finished at or near the bottom of the 20 largest U.S. cities in terms of the number of reported incidents of violent and property crime in 2006, according to statistics released yesterday by the FBI.
Honolulu ranked 20th in the nation in the number of violent crimes and 16th in property crime, according to the FBI. New York City reported the most crimes of any city in the United States last year, according to the report.” http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Sep/25/ln/hawaii709250344.html
I guess this explains why NYC had a "street crimes unit." Never heard of any such thing in Honolulu.
Arts/Culture
Obviously, NYC has Broadway and is the probably the center of the arts in this country. But Honolulu has pretty much everything NYC has on a much smaller scale. All of the shows come here. We have the opera (pretty gay), the symphony, concerts, cultural centers, etc.
The People
We have what's called the "Aloha Spirit" here. People get along. It's very nice. We also have what's called "ohana" (family). People take care of each other. Contrast that to the often rude New Yorker mentality. I remember seeing a documentary about how people die in NYC because drivers refuse to pull over for ambulances. :-\ That said, I like New Yorkers because they're often brutally honest. Many of them have a hard time here though, because that type of attitude does not play well in Hawaii.
I could look up the quality of life and longevity, which is probably far superior in Honolulu, but I'm about done for now. :)
New York City has the largest population in the country;
Look at this chart...there are more murders in Omaha Nebraska than NYC....based on population NYC has over 8,000,000 people NYC has some of the least crime...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate
I will grant you that Honolulu is at the bottom of the chart; so what? It is a fucking dead volcano floating in the ocean. All this praise for beaches, sun and sand. There ARE people who like the four seasons? Ever seen a New England autumn?
Which is city is objectively more important? You think Honolulu is more important in the world than NYC? Get real...I know other people like you who think wasting away on a beach on some tropical island is a dream come true but believe me there are many more interesting landscapes and places like that in the world.
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New York City has the largest population in the country;
Look at this chart...there are more murders in Omaha Nebraska than NYC....based on population NYC has over 8,000,000 people NYC has some of the least crime...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate
I will grant you that Honolulu is at the bottom of the chart; so what? It is a fucking dead volcano floating in the ocean. All this praise for beaches, sun and sand. There ARE people who like the four seasons? Ever seen a New England autumn?
Which is city is objectively more important? You think Honolulu is more important in the world than NYC? Get real...I know other people like you who think wasting away on a beach on some tropical island is a dream come true but believe me there are many more interesting landscapes and places like that in the world.
So are you slinking away from your contention that NYC is more diverse than Honolulu?
I just laid out facts regarding diversity, the environment, crime, arts, culture, the people, etc. Your response is that NYC has some of the "least crime"? Are you high? NYC was one of the most dangerous spots in the country before Rudy cleaned it up. Honolulu has never had a violent crime problem, despite being one of the largest cities in the U.S.
So where are your facts about NYC's diversity, environment, the people?
I don't really expect you to answer. You're a broken record.
The statement I initially responded to was which city is the greatest city in the country. I understand why you want to change the subject and ask which is more "important." The answer is D.C., which isn't a city, but it's clearly the most "important" spot in the country.
Regarding an "importance" comparison between Honolulu and NYC, depends on what you're talking about. If it's certain aspects of money, then obviously NYC. If it's quality of life it's Honolulu.
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So are you slinking away from your contention that NYC is more diverse than Honolulu?
I just laid out facts regarding diversity, the environment, crime, arts, culture, the people, etc. Your response is that NYC has some of the "least crime"? Are you high? NYC was one of the most dangerous spots in the country before Rudy cleaned it up. Honolulu has never had a violent crime problem, despite being one of the largest cities in the U.S.
So where are your facts about NY C's diversity, environment, the people?
I don't really expect you to answer. You're a broken record.
The statement I initially responded to was which city is the greatest city in the country. I understand why you want to change the subject and ask which is more "important." The answer is D.C., which isn't a city, but it's clearly the most "important" spot in the country.
Regarding an "importance" comparison between Honolulu and NYC, depends on what you're talking about. If it's certain aspects of money, then obviously NYC. If it's quality of life it's Honolulu.
Money makes the world go round my bible thumping acquaintance...
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FT Drum is pretty horrible....not enough housing so folks commute from Syracuse. It sucks. Watertown is a depressed area. I always found it funny...the Army has been there since the 80's in a large capacity and the town just plain sucks. Polk has no major town near it at all. I think u have to drive 45 min or so. But it has arguably the best gym in the Army. Its called the Bayou Classic...great gym.
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FT Drum is pretty horrible....not enough housing so folks commute from Syracuse. It sucks. Watertown is a depressed area. I always found it funny...the Army has been there since the 80's in a large capacity and the town just plain sucks. Polk has no major town near it at all. I think u have to drive 45 min or so. But it has arguably the best gym in the Army. Its called the Bayou Classic...great gym.
Headhunter...we NYCers generally don't consider the rest of the state...
NYC is the state...and the rest is trailer trash...
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Money makes the world go round my bible thumping acquaintance...
Thank you for sharing, you paranoid anti-religious extremist.
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Headhunter...we NYCers generally don't consider the rest of the state...
NYC is the state...and the rest is trailer trash...
Oh I know...I'm in KC and looking forward to gettiing a semi-decent slice of pizza while I'm at Drum. Its kinda like when I lived in Boston...anything south of Boston was.."the South".
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The breaking point for a lot of parents has got to be near.
Wonder what the legislation will look like? And how do you enforce it? Everybody I know owns multiple guns.
Seems like there is a link between mental illness and these shootings. Maybe that's a place to start. Still will be difficult though.
As SCOTUS will be examining some relevant issues to the above, this letter by the AG of Michigen is worth reading:
Second-Amendment Showdown
By MIKE COX: the attorney general of Michigan.
November 23, 2007; Page A13
The Supreme Court has agreed to take up a case that will affect millions of Americans and could also have an impact on the 2008 elections. That case, Parker v. D.C., should settle the decades-old argument whether the right "to keep and bear arms" of the Constitution's Second Amendment is an individual right -- that all Americans enjoy -- or only a collective right that states may regulate freely. Legal, historical and even empirical reasons all command a decision that recognizes the Second Amendment guarantee as an individual right.
The amendment reads: "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." If "the right of the people" to keep and bear arms was merely an incident of, or subordinate to, a governmental (i.e., a collective) purpose -- that of ensuring an efficient or "well regulated" militia -- it would be logical to conclude, as does the District of Columbia -- that government can outlaw the individual ownership of guns. But this collective interpretation is incorrect.
To analyze what "the right of the people" means, look elsewhere within the Bill of Rights for guidance. The First Amendment speaks of "the right of the people peaceably to assemble . . ." No one seriously argues that the right to assemble or associate with your fellow citizens is predicated on the number of citizens or the assent of a government. It is an individual right.
The Fourth Amendment says, "the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated . . . " The "people" here does not refer to a collectivity, either.
The rights guaranteed in the Bill of Right are individual. The Third and Fifth Amendments protect individual property owners; the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Eighth Amendments protect potential individual criminal defendants from unreasonable searches, involuntary incrimination, appearing in court without an attorney, excessive bail, and cruel and unusual punishments.
The Ninth Amendment protects individual rights not otherwise enumerated in the Bill of Rights. The 10th Amendment states, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people." Here, "the people" are separate from "the states"; thus, the Second Amendment must be about more than simply a "state" militia when it uses the term "the people."
Consider the grammar. The Second Amendment is about the right to "keep and bear arms." Before the conjunction "and" there is a right to "keep," meaning to possess. This word would be superfluous if the Second Amendment were only about bearing arms as part of the state militia. Reading these words to restrict the right to possess arms strains common rules of composition.
Colonial history and politics are also instructive. James Madison wrote the Bill of Rights to provide a political compromise between the Federalists, who favored a strong central government, and the Anti-Federalists, who feared a strong central government as an inherent danger to individual rights. In June 1789, then Rep. Madison introduced 12 amendments, a "bill of rights," to the Constitution to convince the remaining two of the original 13 colonies to ratify the document.
Madison's draft borrowed liberally from the English Bill of Rights of 1689 and Virginia's Declaration of Rights. Both granted individual rights, not collective rights. As a result, Madison proposed a bill of rights that reflected, as Stanford University historian Jack Rakove notes, his belief that the "greatest dangers to liberty would continue to arise within the states, rather than from a reconstituted national government." Accordingly, Mr. Rakove writes that "Madison justified all of these proposals (Bill of Rights) in terms of the protection they would extend to individual and minority rights."
One of the earliest scholars of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, confirmed this focus on individuals in his famous "Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States" in 1833. "The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms," Story wrote, "has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of republics, since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers . . ."
It is also important to consider the social context at the time of the drafting and adoption of the Bill of Rights. Our Founding Fathers lived in an era where there were arms in virtually every household. Most of America was rural or, even more accurately, frontier. The idea that in the 1780s the common man, living in the remote woods of the Allegheny Mountains of western Pennsylvania and Virginia, would depend on the indulgence of his individual state or colony -- not to mention the new federal government -- to possess and use arms in order to defend himself is ludicrous. From the Minutemen of Concord and Lexington to the irregulars at Yorktown, members of the militias marched into battle with privately-owned weapons.
Lastly, consider the empirical arguments. The three D.C. ordinances at issue are of the broadest possible nature. According to the statute, a person is not legally able to own a handgun in D.C. at all and may have a long-gun -- even in one's home -- only if it is kept unloaded and disassembled (or bound with a trigger lock). The statute was passed in 1976. What have been the results?
Illegal guns continue to be widely available in the district; criminals have easy access to guns while law-abiding citizens do not. Cathy L. Lanier, Acting Chief of Police, Metropolitan Police Department, was quoted as follows: "Last year [2006], more than 2,600 illegal firearms were recovered in D.C., a 13% increase over 2005." Crime rose significantly after the gun ban went into effect. In the five years before the 1976 ban, the murder rate fell to 27 from 37 per 100,000. In the five years after it went into effect, the murder rate rose to 35. In fact, while murder rates have varied over time, during the 30 years since the ban, the murder rate has only once fallen below what it was in 1976.
This comports with my own personal experience. In almost 14 years as prosecutor and as head of the Homicide Unit of the Wayne County (Detroit) Prosecutor's Office, I never saw anyone charged with murder who had a license to legally carry a concealed weapon. Most people who want to possess guns are law-abiding and present no threat to others. Rather than the availability of weapons, my experience is that gun violence is driven by culture, police presence (or lack of same), and failures in the supervision of parolees and probationers.
Not only does history demonstrate that the Second Amendment is an individual right, but experience demonstrates that the broad ban on gun ownership in the District of Columbia has led to precisely the opposite effect from what was intended. For legal and historical reasons, and for the safety of the residents of our nation's capital, the Supreme Court should affirm an individual right to keep and bear arms.
Mr. Cox is the attorney general of Michigan.