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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Rami on July 04, 2008, 02:31:03 PM

Title: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Rami on July 04, 2008, 02:31:03 PM
After watching some of Layne Norton's videos on youtube, it's clear that you can become VERY strong without drugs and handle lot of weight also by using technique. but it doesn't seam to do much for a natural physique.

I feel that his heavy training are a wasted effort and run by emotions. Is it pure ego thing? I guess some need it as a challenge?







Impressive for power lifting but to building a lean good looking healthy physique I don't see a point to it. When you are truly natural there is a limit on what size you can put on while strength can go quite high.

Actually it can be quite damaging and deteriorate your body while not doing anything for your physique.

I think you have to be patient or tone it down like you are emotionally almost not there to be able to stick with it in the long run as a natural. Else you will give up because you don't get the size, start using various drugs/supplements or injure yourself and mess up joints etc.

I give respect to Layne Norton for what he has achieved on paper, hard work is always impressive. But i think bodybuilding should be done for your own sake and not to win power lifting or competitions because it often just messes you up in the end.

It can ruin your body and ruin your thinking for the rest of your life. Just something we should keep in mind. I feel many on getbig are some of the most sane people and also natural.



Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: MONSTER_TRICEPS on July 04, 2008, 02:34:24 PM
I love to lift heavy.

I love to train.

Strength is more important to me than mass.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Rami on July 04, 2008, 02:43:42 PM
I love to lift heavy.

I love to train.

Strength is more important to me than mass.

But are you willing to risk injury to move those heavy weights? I'm willing to bet you are young. I started that way too. Always tried to increase strength, not muscle shape and health. Luckily I never got any bad injuries or tore anything, only minor temporary misshaps. Now I don't even use whey protein and doing better by learning what to eat for what works with my body. Before I wasn't really listening or thinking. Just doing it all out. Not good.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Fortress on July 04, 2008, 02:45:20 PM
I do agree great strength can be achieved naturally with incredible effort and years and years of consistency, but there is an ultimate size cap for each individual drug-free trainer.

I am a big guy (six feet, 270 pounds) but, after 24 years training, have strength beyond even what my size would indicate to someone with a fairly well-trained eye. Exceptional strength and power are the domain of quality hard-earned muscle and a prepared and developed nervous system. Add connective tissue / joint integrity and you have the ingredients for much poundage to me moved.  
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Stark on July 04, 2008, 02:48:29 PM
I love to lift heavy.

I love to train.

Strength is more important to me than mass.

THANK YOU


THANK YOU


THANK YOU
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Rami on July 04, 2008, 02:52:16 PM
I do agree great strength can be achieved naturally with incredible effort and years and years of consistency, but there is an ultimate size cap for each individual drug-free trainer.

I am a big guy (six feet, 270 pounds) but, after 24 years training, have strength beyond even what my size would indicate to someone withy a fairly trained eye. Exceptional strength and power are the domain of quality hard-earned muscle and a prepared and developed nervous system. Add connective tissue / joint integrity and you have the ingredients for much poundage to me moved.  

I see what you are saying, I feel that I don't have that in me to go that rout, I don't feel good at a heavy weight and i question my joints/tissue integrity as you called it from when I always tried to lift heavy, sometimes it felt quite risky and not good. I'm all about energy output, I like to exhaust my muscles/body with lighter weight and higher reps.

And it also comes to what genes you been given. I have always loved cardio and intencity.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Brutal_1 on July 04, 2008, 02:59:16 PM
After watching some of Layne Norton's videos on youtube, it's clear that you can become VERY strong without drugs and handle lot of weight also by using technique. but it doesn't seam to do much for a natural physique.



genetics
genetics
genetics


I trained with a guy who only lifted in the 4-6 range, always heavy!  And he grew like a week, I had to question if he was on.  But i've also seen guys grow from the more comfortable, 10-12 rep range and grow just as well.

In this case, it looks like this guy is more cut out for weightlifting than bodybuilding  ;)


Rami, I definitely see your point and agree with you for many reasons  ;)
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Bluto on July 04, 2008, 03:02:02 PM
if you have to ask youll never know

Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: _bruce_ on July 04, 2008, 03:04:44 PM
The question is also, how much smaller Lame would be if he lifted lighter?
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: WJ_Harley on July 04, 2008, 03:56:25 PM
After watching some of Layne Norton's videos on youtube, it's clear that you can become VERY strong without drugs and handle lot of weight also by using technique. but it doesn't seam to do much for a natural physique.

I feel that his heavy training are a wasted effort and run by emotions. Is it pure ego thing? I guess some need it as a challenge?







Impressive for power lifting but to building a lean good looking healthy physique I don't see a point to it. When you are truly natural there is a limit on what size you can put on while strength can go quite high.

Actually it can be quite damaging and deteriorate your body while not doing anything for your physique.

I think you have to be patient or tone it down like you are emotionally almost not there to be able to stick with it in the long run as a natural. Else you will give up because you don't get the size, start using various drugs/supplements or injure yourself and mess up joints etc.

I give respect to Layne Norton for what he has achieved on paper, hard work is always impressive. But i think bodybuilding should be done for your own sake and not to win power lifting or competitions because it often just messes you up in the end.

It can ruin your body and ruin your thinking for the rest of your life. Just something we should keep in mind. I feel many on getbig are some of the most sane people and also natural.




another big talker with no picture posted.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Van_Bilderass on July 04, 2008, 04:08:14 PM
but it doesn't seam to do much for a natural physique.

I think it's the opposite. Strength oriented training is probably the best type of training for someone in Layne's situation and someone with Layne's genetics.

If a natural trainee with average genetics wants to add muscle I would always recommend powerlifting.

Do you think Layne would have been just as muscular, or even more muscular, if he had slashed his poundages by 50%? I don't think so.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: WJ_Harley on July 04, 2008, 04:12:42 PM
I think it's the opposite. Strength oriented training is probably the best type of training for someone in Layne's situation and someone with Layne's genetics.

If a natural trainee with average genetics wants to add muscle I would always recommend powerlifting.

Do you think Layne would have been just as muscular, or even more muscular, if he had slashed his poundages by 50%? I don't think so.
i agree, the stomping around and all the other antics are stupid but Layne is a strong guy and i'll gaurantee you that Rami is the type of little pussy who sees a guy like Layne in the gym and mutters shit under his breath and won't look him in the eye while he upright rows 35 pounds.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: drkaje on July 04, 2008, 04:13:56 PM
Heavy weight feels better, LOL!

Messed my back up on a bad deadlift and haven't returned to full strength but nothing else feels like finally getting a heavy weight back up or racking after a brutal squat. I don't even know why in the fvck guys would bother going to the gym to do flys with 15lb weights!! It looks lame and they'd grow more doing push-ups at home for free in those gay ass cut up t-shirts.

I nearly puked tuesday during the 5th set of deads and it felt great!!

Maybe I need help. :)
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Dragon on July 04, 2008, 04:59:05 PM
I think it's the opposite. Strength oriented training is probably the best type of training for someone in Layne's situation and someone with Layne's genetics.

If a natural trainee with average genetics wants to add muscle I would always recommend powerlifting.

Do you think Layne would have been just as muscular, or even more muscular, if he had slashed his poundages by 50%? I don't think so.

i agree too... almost all of my gains came from my first 2~3years of training... like a 'powerlifter'
only squats, deadlifts, benchs, etc
i'm training a 19year old kid(like a powerlifter), and he's been training only 5months now, and gains are incredible   
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: chaos on July 04, 2008, 05:00:42 PM
if you have to ask youll never know


Quoted for truth.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: drkaje on July 04, 2008, 05:02:03 PM
Quoted for truth.

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. :)
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: markdavis on July 04, 2008, 05:07:29 PM
i lift like a sumbitch heavy good form how the fuck you gonna grow son when you dont hard lift as fuck
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: markdavis on July 04, 2008, 05:24:57 PM
hell if you is one of them pussyboy on them stroids fuckit    you    dont have to work hard in theweight room if you earn you muther fuckn stripes bitch like a man and not a cheeter you better work you muthr fuckins ass off in teh weight room     ifyou cheet you dont work hard as fuck                      if you are natral you gotta be a mofo man and work hardi want rather work hard and nbe a man      godmamm where fuk is my jackdaniels


work hard and you dont have tw cheetr sumbitchss
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: evandatp on July 04, 2008, 05:25:50 PM
i agree too... almost all of my gains came from my first 2~3years of training... like a 'powerlifter'
only squats, deadlifts, benchs, etc
i'm training a 19year old kid(like a powerlifter), and he's been training only 5months now, and gains are incredible   
The average getbigger thinks that they should be squatting, deadlifting & benching for their first 2-3 months training only.

By then they have their squat, dlift & bench techniques perfected after reverse engineering some daisy-duked photoshoot in Flex. And they wouldn't want their waists to get too big.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: jrod on July 04, 2008, 05:31:58 PM
After watching some of Layne Norton's videos on youtube, it's clear that you can become VERY strong without drugs and handle lot of weight also by using technique. but it doesn't seam to do much for a natural physique.

I feel that his heavy training are a wasted effort and run by emotions. Is it pure ego thing? I guess some need it as a challenge?Impressive for power lifting but to building a lean good looking healthy physique I don't see a point to it. When you are truly natural there is a limit on what size you can put on while strength can go quite high.

Actually it can be quite damaging and deteriorate your body while not doing anything for your physique.

I think you have to be patient or tone it down like you are emotionally almost not there to be able to stick with it in the long run as a natural. Else you will give up because you don't get the size, start using various drugs/supplements or injure yourself and mess up joints etc.

I give respect to Layne Norton for what he has achieved on paper, hard work is always impressive. But i think bodybuilding should be done for your own sake and not to win power lifting or competitions because it often just messes you up in the end.

It can ruin your body and ruin your thinking for the rest of your life. Just something we should keep in mind. I feel many on getbig are some of the most sane people and also natural.





Whatever the case is, whether you're right or wrong, does it really matter?  Like you said, " think bodybuilding should be done for your own sake;" and this is the way he wants to go about it. 
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: TrueGrit on July 04, 2008, 05:32:17 PM








Lol, I love this video. I never tire of watching him stomping around the gym ...mumbling to himself.
'Rip it, com'on' ;D
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: BB on July 04, 2008, 06:09:05 PM
I think it's the opposite. Strength oriented training is probably the best type of training for someone in Layne's situation and someone with Layne's genetics.

If a natural trainee with average genetics wants to add muscle I would always recommend powerlifting.

Do you think Layne would have been just as muscular, or even more muscular, if he had slashed his poundages by 50%? I don't think so.

Word.

If you look at the the truly natural periods of weight lifting/body building(1870s-1940s), you'll see that most of the really big guys were constantly and consistant moving big weights.

The same logic holds true today.
 
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Rami on July 04, 2008, 06:09:52 PM
another big talker with no picture posted.

HAHA, like I need the drama...
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: WJ_Harley on July 04, 2008, 06:12:10 PM
HAHA, like I need the drama...
don't tell me you're a model and 6 percent bodyfat but you don't have a camera, right? ::)
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Rami on July 04, 2008, 06:23:42 PM
don't tell me you're a model and 6 percent bodyfat but you don't have a camera, right? ::)

No I'm not a model. 6 percent body fat, that is another question... I'm my leanest ever right now.

Like I said I spare myself the drama of putting pictures out for now. I don't think being lean is something to brag about anyway. The way I do it is huge amount of cardio.   I like to keep pressure off of me. That is how I always been. I know if I put pictures out, I'll always go back and want to best myself again and again, don't want to do that to myself. Maybe I'm taking it to serious, but I think it easy to slip in and get stuck in that mindset for me. Then I know it will stop being relaxed and fun and just become an obsession.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: WJ_Harley on July 04, 2008, 06:36:05 PM
No I'm not a model. 6 percent body fat, that is another question... I'm my leanest ever right now.

Like I said I spare myself the drama of putting pictures out for now. I don't think being lean is something to brag about anyway. The way I do it is huge amount of cardio.   I like to keep pressure off of me. That is how I always been. I know if I put pictures out, I'll always go back and want to best myself again and again, don't want to do that to myself. Maybe I'm taking it to serious, but I think it easy to slip in and get stuck in that mindset for me. Then I know it will stop being relaxed and fun and just become an obsession.
another chickenshit. ::)
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Rami on July 04, 2008, 06:37:46 PM
another chickenshit. ::)

Exactly what I was thinking to myself. I'll go with that.. I'm ok with it.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: chaos on July 04, 2008, 06:38:43 PM
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. :)
Not often I agree with Bluto, but sometimes..............
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Rami on July 04, 2008, 06:43:34 PM
i agree, the stomping around and all the other antics are stupid but Layne is a strong guy and i'll gaurantee you that Rami is the type of little pussy who sees a guy like Layne in the gym and mutters shit under his breath and won't look him in the eye while he upright rows 35 pounds.

Haha, I wont bother to prove you wrong, but that is not the case. Nice try. This is how I keep getbig FUN...   ;D
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: WJ_Harley on July 04, 2008, 08:14:01 PM
Haha, I wont bother to prove you wrong, but that is not the case. Nice try. This is how I keep getbig FUN...   ;D
prove it, post your picture.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: MisterMagoo on July 04, 2008, 09:32:19 PM
lifting light: boring

lifting heavy: fun

easy decision.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Rami on July 04, 2008, 09:52:03 PM
lifting light: boring

lifting heavy: fun

easy decision.

Don't get me wrong, I lift as heavy as I can but reps and feeling comes first. I keep it at 20+ and lower reps as I exhaust the muscle.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: MisterMagoo on July 04, 2008, 09:53:17 PM
Don't get me wrong, I lift as heavy as I can but reps and feeling comes first. I keep it at 20+ and lower reps as I exhaust the muscle.

only way i'd ever do over 20 reps is if it was for a contest or i knew each set i did would add a pound of muscle. training like that is about as fun as drinking straight tobasco sauce that someone pissed in.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Rami on July 04, 2008, 10:10:29 PM
only way i'd ever do over 20 reps is if it was for a contest or i knew each set i did would add a pound of muscle. training like that is about as fun as drinking straight tobasco sauce that someone pissed in.

Ok. we are simply different.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Mars on July 05, 2008, 02:29:53 AM
the problem with people who say its not possible to gain muscle and cut fat at the same time is that as soon as they starting the cutting phase they train superset pussy style, lots of reps with little weight. offcourse they wont gain muscle. alwayts keep the muscles under high stress with heavy weights mixed with sets of less weight and all they can do is grow.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: drkaje on July 05, 2008, 04:33:01 AM
the problem with people who say its not possible to gain muscle and cut fat at the same time is that as soon as they starting the cutting phase they train superset pussy style, lots of reps with little weight. offcourse they wont gain muscle. alwayts keep the muscles under high stress with heavy weights mixed with sets of less weight and all they can do is grow.

Cut skinny guys start thinking they have a ton of muscle. If you can't move any weight.... you don't have any muscle. It's that simple.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: MONSTER_TRICEPS on July 05, 2008, 10:49:06 AM
Cut skinny guys start thinking they have a ton of muscle. If you can't move any weight.... you don't have any muscle. It's that simple.

Truth.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: chainsaw on July 05, 2008, 10:50:16 AM
I love to lift heavy.

I love to train.

Strength is more important to me than mass.

Monster excuse for lack of diet and cardio.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: MONSTER_TRICEPS on July 05, 2008, 10:57:22 AM
Monster excuse for lack of diet and cardio.

Translation: I squat 2 wheels aside for 6. ::)
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: technokc on July 05, 2008, 11:28:50 AM
hell if you is one of them pussyboy on them stroids fuckit    you    dont have to work hard in theweight room if you earn you muther fuckn stripes bitch like a man and not a cheeter you better work you muthr fuckins ass off in teh weight room     ifyou cheet you dont work hard as fuck                      if you are natral you gotta be a mofo man and work hardi want rather work hard and nbe a man      godmamm where fuk is my jackdaniels


work hard and you dont have tw cheetr sumbitchss

Yeah, what he said.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Mars on July 05, 2008, 11:31:21 AM
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: rk272727 on July 05, 2008, 11:34:47 AM

  another useless post by the useless post professor
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: MONSTER_TRICEPS on July 05, 2008, 11:54:57 AM
  another useless post by the useless post professor

Who told you to speak you little dicksucking queef?
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Kwon on July 05, 2008, 12:09:52 PM
  another useless post by the useless post professor

What? That's a great song!
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: musclehedz on July 05, 2008, 12:25:32 PM
Definitely feels safer to train with heavy weights while being on. The joints feel better and you recover way faster. Normally when you are off you feel soreness 4/5 days after the workout. During a cycle this is only 2 days tops.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: WJ_Harley on July 05, 2008, 12:28:18 PM
Definitely feels safer to train with heavy weights while being on. The joints feel better and you recover way faster. Normally when you are off you feel soreness 4/5 days after the workout. During a cycle this is only 2 days tops.
you sound like the typical excuse making drug pussy who can't lift a gallon of milk without putting a needle in his ass.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: musclehedz on July 05, 2008, 12:34:00 PM
you sound like the typical excuse making drug pussy who can't lift a gallon of milk without putting a needle in his ass.

 ::)

You sound like the typical fool who listens to the main-stream media when it comes to a.s. I trained natural for 7 years. I should have started earlier with chemical assistance. More size, hardness, better performance on my work, better sex life etc. etc. And i always had a great life even before my first cycle. I enjoyed every minute of it.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: WJ_Harley on July 05, 2008, 12:38:22 PM
::)

You sound like the typical fool who listens to the main-stream media when it comes to a.s. I trained natural for 7 years. I should have started earlier with chemical assistance. More size, hardness, better performance on my work, better sex life etc. etc. And i always had a great life even before my first cycle. I enjoyed every minute of it.
like i said if you have to inject yourself with a chemical to work, have sex, etc. you're a pussy plain and simple.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: musclehedz on July 05, 2008, 12:40:52 PM
like i said if you have to inject yourself with a chemical to work, have sex, etc. you're a pussy plain and simple.

I think you have a hard time reading a few lines  ::)

I never had problems with these things ever. Some extra test. just makes it even better. But how can you judge this when you don't have a clue about it  :D
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: WJ_Harley on July 05, 2008, 12:42:52 PM
I think you have a hard time reading a few lines  ::)

I never had problems with these things ever. Some extra test. just makes it even better. But how can you judge this when you don't have a clue about it  :D
why not do it clean then?
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Rami on July 05, 2008, 12:44:46 PM
like i said if you have to inject yourself with a chemical to work, have sex, etc. you're a pussy plain and simple.

WJ we have found something to agree on. :)
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: musclehedz on July 05, 2008, 12:48:26 PM
why not do it clean then?

I think the advantages of juice outweigh the negatives. I don't experience any side-effects at all. Not even during PCT for example. I still hear some people saying "it will get him in the end" but we haven't seen any examples of this happening.

The most important thing is to do it in moderation. Some idiots use more than 2 gram of test a week. Now that's just plain dumb. It's like drinking a full bottle of whiskey. Take a normal amount and everyone can harvest the benefits.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: WJ_Harley on July 05, 2008, 12:50:10 PM
I think the advantages of juice outweigh the negatives. I don't experience any side-effects at all. Not even during PCT for example. I still hear some people saying "it will get him in the end" but we haven't seen any examples of this happening.

The most important thing is to do it in moderation. Some idiots use more than 2 gram of test a week. Now that's just plain dumb. It's like drinking a full bottle of whiskey. Take a normal amount and everyone can harvest the benefits.
why not do it clean just to prove to yourself that you have the mental strength and discipline to do it without the aid and crutch of a needle full of chemicals?
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Rami on July 05, 2008, 12:51:18 PM
::)

You sound like the typical fool who listens to the main-stream media when it comes to a.s. I trained natural for 7 years. I should have started earlier with chemical assistance. More size, hardness, better performance on my work, better sex life etc. etc. And i always had a great life even before my first cycle. I enjoyed every minute of it.

Getting a weeks worth of test in one shot, like on HRT for example, is NOT optimal. Unless you enjoy having your balls shriveled away. Almost every one can with help of nutrition and information restore normal natural test production. This is just typical for today's America, pop a pill and then 3 other pills for the side effects and never feel right in the mind. How fun is that, Having to rely on pills and needles, why go through the stress of always having to have it?  

Cold turkey EVERYTHING! :) You will feel like yourself again.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: musclehedz on July 05, 2008, 12:55:05 PM
Getting a weeks worth of test in one shot, like on HRT for example, is NOT optimal. Unless you enjoy having your balls shriveled away. Almost every one can with help of nutrition and information restore normal natural test production. This is just typical for today's America, pop a pill and then 3 other pills for the side effects and never feel right in the mind. How fun is that, Having to rely on pills and needles, why go through the stress of always having to have it? 

Cold turkey EVERYTHING! :) You will feel like yourself again.

My balls are working better than ever. This is basically why cycling on - and off is very important.

Besides i don't even rely on it. I feel fine while being off. Been off for at least 12 months
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: shiftedShapes on July 05, 2008, 01:02:13 PM
After watching some of Layne Norton's videos on youtube, it's clear that you can become VERY strong without drugs and handle lot of weight also by using technique. but it doesn't seam to do much for a natural physique.

I feel that his heavy training are a wasted effort and run by emotions. Is it pure ego thing? I guess some need it as a challenge?







Impressive for power lifting but to building a lean good looking healthy physique I don't see a point to it. When you are truly natural there is a limit on what size you can put on while strength can go quite high.

Actually it can be quite damaging and deteriorate your body while not doing anything for your physique.

I think you have to be patient or tone it down like you are emotionally almost not there to be able to stick with it in the long run as a natural. Else you will give up because you don't get the size, start using various drugs/supplements or injure yourself and mess up joints etc.

I give respect to Layne Norton for what he has achieved on paper, hard work is always impressive. But i think bodybuilding should be done for your own sake and not to win power lifting or competitions because it often just messes you up in the end.

It can ruin your body and ruin your thinking for the rest of your life. Just something we should keep in mind. I feel many on getbig are some of the most sane people and also natural.





I think the key is learning how to lift with great intensity using light weights.  It's all about leverage.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Rami on July 05, 2008, 01:03:48 PM
My balls are working better than ever. This is basically why cycling on - and off is very important.

Besides i don't even rely on it. I feel fine while being off. Been off for at least 12 months


That's great, if you say you feel fine while being off, and now been off for 12 months. Then why not simple stay that way?

Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: MCWAY on July 05, 2008, 01:08:17 PM
But are you willing to risk injury to move those heavy weights? I'm willing to bet you are young. I started that way too. Always tried to increase strength, not muscle shape and health. Luckily I never got any bad injuries or tore anything, only minor temporary misshaps. Now I don't even use whey protein and doing better by learning what to eat for what works with my body. Before I wasn't really listening or thinking. Just doing it all out. Not good.

It sounds to me, as if you're equating strength, solely with heavy one-rep maximums. That's not the only way to increase strength.

If you bench 300 for 6 reps and 8 weeks later, you can bench 300 for 10 reps or 315 for six reps (or better still, 315 for 10 reps), you've become stronger.

The way you prevent injury is by warming up properly, eating plenty of good food, and gauging your body (lifting heavy when the joints and tendons are up to it, while scaling back in poundage when they're not). Every workout doesn't have to and shouldn't be and "all-out" one. That's how people get injured, thinking they have to torture themselves each session or they won't grow. As two famous bodybuilders put it:

"Train; don't strain" -  Bill Pearl, 4-time NABBA Mr. Universe (and professional strongman, I might add).

"Stimulate; don't annihilate" - Lee Haney, NPC National champion, IFBB Mr. Universe, 8-time Mr. Olympia.

Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: musclehedz on July 05, 2008, 01:22:42 PM

That's great, if you say you feel fine while being off, and now been off for 12 months. Then why not simple stay that way?



A few reasons:

1. It sucks to be sore all week after some brutal training sessions. Every person knows it sucks to walk stairs or lift some objects after a brutal leg/shoulder training routine.
2. I'm aiming for a package that cannot be reached naturally (you can get VERY big without chemical assistance, but you won't maintain most of the size when cutting down very low om carbs and doing frequent cardio sessions)
3. Training becomes a lot more intense. You can push yourself harder. A very weird feeling that i cannot explain any further.
4. I don't have side-effects.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: musclehedz on July 05, 2008, 01:23:50 PM
I think the key is learning how to lift with great intensity using light weights.  It's all about leverage.

The same guy tore his chest a few months ago. I rather train safely.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Royalty on July 05, 2008, 01:37:15 PM
Most people that are secure and happy dont seek out steroids.

Many people that I know that take steroids are very insecure, desperate people. They have weak minds, weak hearts, and get depressed when they are off the drugs too.

This doesnt apply to all steroid users. But it does seem apply to to large percentage of them.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Rami on July 05, 2008, 03:41:48 PM
A few reasons:

1. It sucks to be sore all week after some brutal training sessions. Every person knows it sucks to walk stairs or lift some objects after a brutal leg/shoulder training routine.
2. I'm aiming for a package that cannot be reached naturally (you can get VERY big without chemical assistance, but you won't maintain most of the size when cutting down very low om carbs and doing frequent cardio sessions)
3. Training becomes a lot more intense. You can push yourself harder. A very weird feeling that i cannot explain any further.
4. I don't have side-effects.

I respect that.

But I get scared the way I push myself in the gym sometimes as it is. I would probably fuck something up if I was chemically assisted.

I agree on #1, especially after super setting stiff leg dead lifts with front squats. I'm sore 6 days after sometimes...very inconvenient just trying to walk.

But I'm not aiming for super natural look or willing to mess with my endocrine system more than hard training already does.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Earl1972 on July 05, 2008, 05:37:36 PM
Most people that are secure and happy dont seek out steroids.

Many people that I know that take steroids are very insecure, desperate people. They have weak minds, weak hearts, and get depressed when they are off the drugs too.

This doesnt apply to all steroid users. But it does seem apply to to large percentage of them.

the same can be said about religious people ;)

E
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: candidizzle on July 05, 2008, 05:52:18 PM

But I'm not aiming for super natural look or willing to mess with my endocrine system more than hard training already does.
i wouldnt say that hard training "messes" with our endocrine system.

what do you mean ?
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Rami on July 06, 2008, 10:29:03 AM
I meant to say the Central Nervous System. The Immune system, Adrenal glands etc can get fatigued when close to or at over training during cutting. Add "assistance" and you might recover faster but the immune system does not always keep up. Many professional athletes get suppressed immune system from cycling drugs and training hard. Anyone remember Kevin Randleman...
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: MisterMagoo on July 06, 2008, 10:38:42 AM
we all use chemicals. alcohol, caffeine, painkillers, probably more than a few of us use rougher rec drugs. people eat to feel better, lots probably use various legal supplements that still have a chemical effect on the brain.

people who demonize one drug undoubtedly use lots of others. there's not one person on this forum who doesn't use chemicals to some capacity.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: nicky.smth on July 06, 2008, 10:39:36 AM
we all use chemicals. alcohol, caffeine, painkillers, probably more than a few of us use rougher rec drugs. people eat to feel better, lots probably use various legal supplements that still have a chemical effect on the brain.

people who demonize one drug undoubtedly use lots of others. there's not one person on this forum who doesn't use chemicals to some capacity.

Bingo, :D
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Eric2 on July 06, 2008, 10:39:52 AM
After watching some of Layne Norton's videos on youtube, it's clear that you can become VERY strong without drugs and handle lot of weight also by using technique. but it doesn't seam to do much for a natural physique.

I feel that his heavy training are a wasted effort and run by emotions. Is it pure ego thing? I guess some need it as a challenge?







Impressive for power lifting but to building a lean good looking healthy physique I don't see a point to it. When you are truly natural there is a limit on what size you can put on while strength can go quite high.

Actually it can be quite damaging and deteriorate your body while not doing anything for your physique.

I think you have to be patient or tone it down like you are emotionally almost not there to be able to stick with it in the long run as a natural. Else you will give up because you don't get the size, start using various drugs/supplements or injure yourself and mess up joints etc.

I give respect to Layne Norton for what he has achieved on paper, hard work is always impressive. But i think bodybuilding should be done for your own sake and not to win power lifting or competitions because it often just messes you up in the end.

It can ruin your body and ruin your thinking for the rest of your life. Just something we should keep in mind. I feel many on getbig are some of the most sane people and also natural.






   How is training for strength and power any different (ego-wise) than training for a good natural physique? Is having a great build not also great for the ego? Also it is a good idea to work on one's ego to some extent. Lifting heavy if done right will not ruin your body nor will it ruin your life.
  
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Rami on July 06, 2008, 10:40:48 AM
we all use chemicals. alcohol, caffeine, painkillers, probably more than a few of us use rougher rec drugs. people eat to feel better, lots probably use various legal supplements that still have a chemical effect on the brain.

people who demonize one drug undoubtedly use lots of others. there's not one person on this forum who doesn't use chemicals to some capacity.

I tend to agree. I often think even food can be one of the worst drugs.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Rami on July 06, 2008, 10:47:20 AM

   How is training for strength and power any different (ego-wise) than training for a good natural physique? Is having a great build not also great for the ego? Also it is a good idea to work on one's ego to some extent. Lifting heavy if done right will not ruin your body nor will it ruin your life.
  

How do you know this when evidence point to the contrary? Lifting heavy for a long time and injuries tend to come. Look at Layne himself, Dorian, Ronnie, Levrone. It think the risk is unnecessarily. The risk of slipped discs in your back, torn pecs, pulled hamstrings, increases with weight and the cumulative wear and tear increases with weight. Yes there are people who get away with it or don't care, but there is a correlation. That is my only point.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Eric2 on July 06, 2008, 10:51:24 AM
How do you know this when evidence point to the contrary? Lifting heavy for a long time and injuries tend to come. Look at Layne himself, Dorian, Ronnie, Levrone. It think the risk is unnecessarily. The risk of slipped discs in your back, torn pecs, pulled hamstrings, increases with weight and the cumulative wear and tear increases with weight. Yes there are people who get away with it or don't care, but there is a correlation. That is my only point.

   Evidence would point that these gentlemen used AAS which build muscle faster than tendon and ligament strenth can hold up too. I have witnessed full pec-tears with torn biceps from guys in gym who where both big and strong from AAS yet their tendon and ligamnet insertions could not hold up to the muscle strength.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: The ChemistV2 on July 06, 2008, 11:11:12 AM
I meant to say the Central Nervous System. The Immune system, Adrenal glands etc can get fatigued when close to or at over training during cutting. Add "assistance" and you might recover faster but the immune system does not always keep up. Many professional athletes get suppressed immune system from cycling drugs and training hard. Anyone remember Kevin Randleman...
What you say has a lot of truth. People who overtrain or under-recuperate often have suppressed immunity. In the short run, it may manifest in increased cold's or flus, but long term immunosuppression can lead to far worse disorders. Many people don't have a clue when they've overtaxed the adrenals. When that manifests in systemic and local inflammation, they go to a doctor and he'll give them corticosteroids, which only further weakens the adrenals. The "Hardcore" guys don't believe in any of this stuff. They believe in juicing till the've shut down their own hormone production and then saying, "Hey, I'll just go on HRT the rest of my life. Synthetic hormones work exactly the same as the body's own genetically coded hormones." But has anyone ever researched that on the cellular level and proven that? You sound pretty knowledgable about health Rami. Don't think your ideas will go over well here, however.
Title: Re: What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?
Post by: Royalty on July 06, 2008, 11:32:01 AM
there's not one person on this forum who doesn't use chemicals to some capacity.

Oh my.

Technically water (H20) is a chemical. ATP is a chemical. Oxygen and Carbon Dioxide are chemicals.

Oral or injectable Steroids are chemicals yes. But these exogenous chemicals are hormones that disrupt the hormonal cascade and endrocrine system in humans.