Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Steroids Info & Hardcore => Topic started by: NEOFARQ on November 09, 2008, 09:35:56 PM
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I meet with my "coach" to game plan for my show that I have coming up in may. We planned out my 12 week bulker and 12 week cutter. My bulker is based on 1,000 mgs. of test/week, 400 mg. Equipoise/week, 50 mg. d-bol ED 1st 5 weeks, 20 mg. Nolva ED. pretty standard bulker, I've never ran over 500 mg. a week ever so I'm expecting some pretty dramatic results from this. He also wants me to slam some insulin right after I workout. I know that insulin is extremely dangerous and will literally kill you if dosed wrong. How good are the results from it? Are they worth the risk? I don't think I'm willing to do it but I figured I'd ask....
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Be smart,be safe I would never use anything I wasnt completly familiar with (insulin). Your about to use twice as much test as you have in the past along with a good dose of d-bol and boldenone. Enough is enough.
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you are upping the dose of test to double you usually do...see how that goes for you...
unless your planning on being a pro don't risk your life on it with the insulin.
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do you want an honest opinion? or people trying to ensure you don't get a return out of your risk? i.e. if I'm not doing it because I don't like the risk then you sure as hell shouldn't be doing it too... (competitive)
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Reward-- You sit on your couch and literally watch yourself Grow
Risk-- you die
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I meet with my "coach" to game plan for my show that I have coming up in may. We planned out my 12 week bulker and 12 week cutter. My bulker is based on 1,000 mgs. of test/week, 400 mg. Equipoise/week, 50 mg. d-bol ED 1st 5 weeks, 20 mg. Nolva ED. pretty standard bulker, I've never ran over 500 mg. a week ever so I'm expecting some pretty dramatic results from this. He also wants me to slam some insulin right after I workout. I know that insulin is extremely dangerous and will literally kill you if dosed wrong. How good are the results from it? Are they worth the risk? I don't think I'm willing to do it but I figured I'd ask....
How important is your health?
1G Test ew is one thing.......
Insulin is another.
Use your head.
DIV
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How important is your health?
1G Test ew is one thing.......
Insulin is another.
Use your head.
DIV
on what basis are you implying that insulin will be detrimental to ones health ?
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on what basis are you implying that insulin will be detrimental to ones health ?
I'm not getting in to this debate again.
Common sense prevails, young tbombz.
DIV
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I'm not getting in to this debate again.
Common sense prevails, young tbombz.
DIV
what debate ?
using low/moderate dose anabolics + slin is healthier than using high/mega dose anabolics alone. there is no debating that.
not just for cardiovasular risk factors, but also, drinking large amounts of simple sugars around the workout (somehting you should be doing whether using insulin or not) will promote insulin insensitivy and type 2 diabetes. it puts alot of stress on the pancrease to release huge amounts of insulin at once. its not natural ot the human body. howvere, when supplementing with exogenous insulin the pancrease is relieved of that stress and your not as prone to developing type 2 diabetes
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howvere, when supplementing with exogenous insulin the pancrease is relieved of that stress and your not as prone to developing type 2 diabetes
Please post a legitimate scientific source stating this.
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Please post a legitimate scientific source stating this.
you know as well as i do that no such source exists, as science has no interest in studying a non-diabetic bodybuilders use of insulin.
however i can provide an easy example
inject a gram of test. what happens to the testes output of test ?
anyway insulin is released in response to blood sugar levels, not in response to ingestion os sugars. so if blood sugars never elevate then insulin is never releaseds. with supraphysiological levels of insulin already present in the blood when the release of those sugars into the blood stream occurs, they will be pushed into muscle too quickly for any pacrease response anyway... that is IF there is no feedback loop for insulin just like there is FOR EVERY OTHER HORMONE IN THE BODY
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I just think he should use the 1g a week and see what happens if he is not happy with his results
then choose a new path. That would be my choice. Not slamming the slin users it is just not the
path I will ever take.
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I just think he should use the 1g a week and see what happens if he is not happy with his results
then choose a new path.
Once you turn to the Darkside, it's not as simple as "choosing a new path"......
DIV
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Once you turn to the Darkside, it's not as simple as "choosing a new path"......
DIV
I have choose my destiny young DIV but the insulin thing is far far out of this galaxy for me :D
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I have choose my destiny young DIV but the insulin thing is far far out of this galaxy for me :D
Obi-Wan has taught you well.
DIV
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Btw, is that your Pitt, Iron? I used to have a red nose a few years back. Best dog I've ever owned. If I ever get another dog it will without a doubt be another Pitt, probably the best companion dogs around.
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Btw, is that your Pitt, Iron? I used to have a red nose a few years back. Best dog I've ever owned. If I ever get another dog it will without a doubt be another Pitt, probably the best companion dogs around.
no i wish that is one muscular ass dog...I got an american bulldog and she is a beast 1 1/2 yrs old
I tried to post a pic but server was to busy.
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I meet with my "coach" to game plan for my show that I have coming up in may. We planned out my 12 week bulker and 12 week cutter. My bulker is based on 1,000 mgs. of test/week, 400 mg. Equipoise/week, 50 mg. d-bol ED 1st 5 weeks, 20 mg. Nolva ED. pretty standard bulker, I've never ran over 500 mg. a week ever so I'm expecting some pretty dramatic results from this. He also wants me to slam some insulin right after I workout. I know that insulin is extremely dangerous and will literally kill you if dosed wrong. How good are the results from it? Are they worth the risk? I don't think I'm willing to do it but I figured I'd ask....
leave the slin alone, if you don't grow off of a fuccking 1,000mg. of test/wk, 400mg. of Deca/wk and 50mg. of D bol a day you're genetics are probably the 99th percentile of worst on earth.
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no i wish that is one muscular ass dog...I got an american bulldog and she is a beast 1 1/2 yrs old
I tried to post a pic but server was to busy.
Check this boy out:
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Check this boy out:
All kibble, dead by 5, etc etc
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Check this boy out:
Do you feed your pup Winstrol? ???
DIV
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leave the slin alone, if you don't grow off of a fuccking 1,000mg. of test/wk, 400mg. of Deca/wk and 50mg. of D bol a day you're genetics are probably the 99th percentile of worst on earth.
...or you got fake gear. ;)
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Check this boy out:
is that that weight pull dog?
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you know as well as i do that no such source exists, as science has no interest in studying a non-diabetic bodybuilders use of insulin.
however i can provide an easy example
inject a gram of test. what happens to the testes output of test ?
:)
anyway insulin is released in response to blood sugar levels, not in response to ingestion os sugars. so if blood sugars never elevate then insulin is never releaseds. with supraphysiological levels of insulin already present in the blood when the release of those sugars into the blood stream occurs, they will be pushed into muscle too quickly for any pacrease response anyway... that is IF there is no feedback loop for insulin just like there is FOR EVERY OTHER HORMONE IN THE BODY but m,aybe insulin is the exception ::) lol
The 'rest the glands" bullshit is all over the internet. There is nothing, in any medical literature I'm aware of that actually proves this. Its pure bullshit conjecture from people with lack of understanding about what really happens in the body as they live on their flat planet.
Tbombz your example is very poor. The control mechanisms for test is much different and much less tightly regulated than it is for insulin and blood glucose.
Insulin is one of the most closely controlled hormones in the body. The simple fact is the brain needs fuel. Without insulin, it does not get its desired fuel. The body is going to do everything it can to maintain blood glucose within the normal range.
You are completely and totally missing the boat with insulin physiology and advocating something that could potentially be very very dangerous with your naivete. Think about it. What happens if there is "excess" insulin? It can't occur the same way it occurs with testosterone. Do you even know the feedback loop?
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Insulin is a drug that promotes muscle growth. Insulin is taken with carbs and protein.
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come on vet you can do better than that
after i made that post i thought of about 5 things all that were contradictory in some way that were much better counter arguments than what youve got there.
:D
anyway you wont find that 'rest the glands bullshit' anywhere else on the internet
When someone proves you wrong, just say "Thank you".
8)
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When someone proves you wrong, just say "Thank you".
8)
He will not say "Thank you".
He will say "Fuck you". :-X
DIV
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perhaps the benefit from taking insulin is actually just the result of proper pre/post workout nutrition ???
The body produces an exact amount of insulin it needs to process an exact amount of sugar - NO MORE OR LESS OR COMA WOULD ENSUE.
when insulin is taken exogenously this glucose/insulin ration has to be closely monitored to avoid coma etc.
i simply do not see the benefit in talking exogenous insulin, when the body already does he job (and does it better).
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perhaps the benefit from taking insulin is actually just the result of proper pre/post workout nutrition ???
The body produces an exact amount of insulin it needs to process an exact amount of sugar - NO MORE OR LESS OR COMA WOULD ENSUE.
when insulin is taken exogenously this glucose/insulin ration has to be closely monitored to avoid coma etc.
i simply do not see the benefit in talking exogenous insulin, when the body already does he job (and does it better).
The whole benefit of taking insulin is to help maximize and go beyond the amount of nutrients your body (and it's naturaly insulin production) can shuttle into your muscles and cells.
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The whole benefit of taking insulin is to help maximize and go beyond the amount of nutrients your body (and it's naturaly insulin production) can shuttle into your muscles and cells.
yes but eating a candy bar produces just as much insulin or more naturally as is normally taken for bodybuilding purposes - wheres the maximization and going beyond there?
"A carb meal can easily raise insulin levels much higher than injecting insulin. For example, a candy bar with 44 grams of carbs, 3 grams of protein, and 11 grams of fat will raise insulin from a baseline level 5 mU/L to a peak of 42 mU/L in 30 min. It takes 180 min for insulin to return to baseline (1).
Contrast that with an injection of Actrapid Insulin (Novo GmbH, Germany), a humalog type of insulin. 10 IU injected sq into the thigh raises insulin from baseline to 20 mU/L after 90 min, with insulin decreasing to baseline after 300 min. (2)
The areas under the curves (AUC), representing the total bioavailable insulin are similar:
For the candy bar AUC was 3518 mU/L min
For actrapid AUC was 3796 mU/L min"
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From what I've been told, above 12 IU is superphysiological. That's why it's a waste of time to take 10IU PWO. Your body can produce that much insulin on it's own. Most Pros (or at least the ones I know) take 20IU to take advantage of the superphysiological effects.
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there is no muscle protein synthesis or breakdown advantage from insulin levels above 15microU/L. Which is only slightly above base levels of 5-10microU/L as shown in this study:
Branched-chain amino acids as fuels and anabolic signals in human muscle.Rennie MJ, Bohé J, Smith K, Wackerhage H, Greenhaff P.
Medical Sciences, University of Aberdeen, Aberdeen AB24 3FX, UK. michael.rennie@nottingham.ac.uk
During exercise, there is an increase in amino acid (AA) oxidation accompanied by a depression in whole-body protein synthesis and an increase in protein breakdown. Leucine oxidation increases in proportion to energy expenditure, but the total contribution of BCAA to fuel provision during exercise is minor and insufficient to increase dietary protein requirements. When investigating the effects of AA on the control of muscle protein synthesis (MPS), we showed that increased availability of mixed AAs caused a rise in human MPS to about the same extent as complete meals. Leucine alone (and to some extent other essential, but not nonessential, AAs) can stimulate MPS for a short period, suggesting that leucine acts as a signal as well as a substrate. MPS stimulation by infused AAs shows tachyphylaxis, returning to basal rates after 2 h, possibly explaining why chronically elevated leucine delivery does not elevate MPS clinically. Increased availability of essential amino acids (EAAs) results in dose-related responses of MPS, but, in elderly subjects, there is blunted sensitivity and responsiveness associated with decreased total RNA and mRNA for signaling proteins and signaling activity. Increases of MPS due to EAAs are associated with elevation of signaling activity in the mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR)/p70 ribosomal subunit S6 kinase eukaryotic initiation factor 4 binding protein 1 pathway, without requiring rises of plasma insulin availability above 10 microU/mL. However, at insulin of <5 microU/mL, AAs appear to stimulate MPS without increasing mTOR signaling. Further increasing availability of insulin to postprandial values increases signaling activity, but has no further effect on MPS.
:o
so tell me again why people take exogenous insulin.
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From what I've been told, above 12 IU is superphysiological. That's why it's a waste of time to take 10IU PWO. Your body can produce that much insulin on it's own. Most Pros (or at least the ones I know) take 20IU to take advantage of the superphysiological effects.
I doubt 12IU qualifies as supraphysiological, though I'm not sure. Does anyone have data on physiological insulin range? Vet?
This thought probably comes from sliding scale sample insulin protocols such as this:
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I doubt 12IU qualifies as supraphysiological, though I'm not sure. Does anyone have data on physiological insulin range? Vet?
This thought probably comes from sliding scale sample insulin protocols such as this:
12 IU isn't supraphysiological. as a matter of fact, its a completely different unit so comarison is very difficult. Insulin doses depend on the body mass (both fat and muscle content) of the individual, the carbohydrate content of the meal, the activity level of the individual pre and post consumption, and the individuals relative insulin sensitivity. I will take up to 20 units of Humalog before a meal sometimes. Other times I take 6-10. I'm a 300+ lb guy.
To truely evaluate insulin, you need to measure serum insulin concentrations. Its not the most reliable test because of the bodies counter regulatory hormones---ie a high cortisol levle will increase insulin levels with normal blood glucose levels resulting. Is that person supraphsyiological? No, because their blood glucose levels are normal.
Generally speaking, hypoglycemia in the presence of insulin levels greater than 250-300 pmol/L are considered "probably" abnormal. Hypooglycemia with serum insulin levels 300-350 pmol/L are considered more confirmatory, but blood glucose and counter regulatory hormones MUST be considered. You generally don't consider insulin levels if the patient isn't hypoglycemic.
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12 IU isn't supraphysiological. as a matter of fact, its a completely different unit so comarison is very difficult. Insulin doses depend on the body mass (both fat and muscle content) of the individual, the carbohydrate content of the meal, the activity level of the individual pre and post consumption, and the individuals relative insulin sensitivity. I will take up to 20 units of Humalog before a meal sometimes. Other times I take 6-10. I'm a 300+ lb guy.
To truely evaluate insulin, you need to measure serum insulin concentrations. Its not the most reliable test because of the bodies counter regulatory hormones---ie a high cortisol levle will increase insulin levels with normal blood glucose levels resulting. Is that person supraphsyiological? No, because their blood glucose levels are normal.
Generally speaking, hypoglycemia in the presence of insulin levels greater than 250-300 pmol/L are considered "probably" abnormal. Hypooglycemia with serum insulin levels 300-350 pmol/L are considered more confirmatory, but blood glucose and counter regulatory hormones MUST be considered. You generally don't consider insulin levels if the patient isn't hypoglycemic.
Wow Vet, didn't know you were that big! Do you ever find that people treat you like a "meathead" before they realize what you do and how much knowledge you have?
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300lb :-X
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Wow Vet, didn't know you were that big! Do you ever find that people treat you like a "meathead" before they realize what you do and how much knowledge you have?
Vet is treated like a meathead except at his job.
I have a feeling even the animals he treats have a fear of him. ;D
DIV
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I would diffidently take my cats to see Vet. ;D
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I would diffidently take my cats to see Vet. ;D
Your kittens would have a choice of Winstrol or EQ for injection.
Turn your kitten in to a puma! ;D
DIV
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Your kittens would have a choice of Winstrol or EQ for injection.
Turn your kitten in to a puma! ;D
DIV
Nah, the ones already crazy as hell anyway. He was nuetered at five years old & it took him two years to settle down. :-\
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Nah, the ones already crazy as hell anyway. He was nuetered at five years old & it took him two years to settle down. :-\
If I ever get a cat it's going to be one of those bodytypes that looks like a miniature bear cub.
They're rare.......but I've seen them.
I will not buy a scraggly type cat.......
I want a cat that will dominate the other cats. :P
DIV
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If I ever get a cat it's going to be one of those bodytypes that looks like a miniature bear cub.
They're rare.......but I've seen them.
I will not buy a scraggly type cat.......
I want a cat that will dominate the other cats. :P
DIV
You'd love psycho then. ;D
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Just putting some thoughts out there...
Ok so the exogenous insulin used in bodybuilding tends to be at physiological levels. However it seems to be a current trend to use insulin before workouts. The body naturally decreases the release of insulin during exercise and increases the release of glucagon (Zinker, Mohr, Kelly, Namdaran, Bracy, Wasserman 1994). What effects arise from the higher amounts of insulin during training?
Zinker BA, Mohr T, Kelly P, Namdaran K, Bracy DP, Wasserman DH.
Exercise-induced fall in insulin: mechanism of action at the liver and effects on muscle glucose metabolism.
Am J Physiol. 1994 May;266(5 Pt 1):E683-9.
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Just putting some thoughts out there...
Ok so the exogenous insulin used in bodybuilding tends to be at physiological levels. However it seems to be a current trend to use insulin before workouts. The body naturally decreases the release of insulin during exercise and increases the release of glucagon (Zinker, Mohr, Kelly, Namdaran, Bracy, Wasserman 1994). What effects arise from the higher amounts of insulin during training?
Zinker BA, Mohr T, Kelly P, Namdaran K, Bracy DP, Wasserman DH.
Exercise-induced fall in insulin: mechanism of action at the liver and effects on muscle glucose metabolism.
Am J Physiol. 1994 May;266(5 Pt 1):E683-9.
Maybe allows the muscle to be fed more during exercise rather than waiting until after the workout?
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Ok so the exogenous insulin used in bodybuilding tends to be at physiological levels. However it seems to be a current trend to use insulin before workouts.
No.
Actually, the trend is to use exogenous insulin post-workout with meals.
DIV
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No.
Actually, the trend is to use exogenous insulin post-workout with meals.
DIV
That's the standard way people have been using it, but the more advanced users have been using it pre-workout.
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That's the standard way people have been using it, but the more advanced users have been using it pre-workout.
Perhaps this allows for faster absorbtion of carbs post-workout through some undetermined mechanism of action.
I believe Vanadyl Sulfate works this way on a much smaller scale.....
DIV
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You'd love psycho then. ;D
Ok, bring Psycho when you come to AZ and we will put him up against my cat, JaMarcus McFadden!
7-8 lbs, lean, muscular, not declawed and on a high protein diet! ;)
It's like Michael Vick all over again....
DISCLAIMER: No cats were hurt during this post ;)
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Ok, bring Psycho when you come to AZ and we will put him up against my cat, JaMarcus McFadden!
7-8 lbs, lean, muscular, not declawed and on a high protein diet! ;)
It's like Michael Vick all over again....
DISCLAIMER: No cats were hurt during this post ;)
Note: Psycho...14 pound alley cat with four wheel drive (not declawed). Know for fighting around the neighborhood until he was turned into a house cat by yours truly.
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Perhaps this allows for faster absorbtion of carbs post-workout through some undetermined mechanism of action.
I believe Vanadyl Sulfate works this way on a much smaller scale.....
DIV
its going to be more likely to induce hypyglycemia, which, under specific conditions will result in increased amino acid uptake and GH release. The thing is you have to time everything absolutely right. There are too many variables involved for me to think that this is something that could be reliably reproduced without negative consequences. The counterregulatory hormone release (cortisol, epinephrine, etc) that the body has to be considered.
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its going to be more likely to induce hypyglycemia, which, under specific conditions will result in increased amino acid uptake and GH release. The thing is you have to time everything absolutely right. There are too many variables involved for me to think that this is something that could be reliably reproduced without negative consequences. The counterregulatory hormone release (cortisol, epinephrine, etc) that the body has to be considered.
So, you think that human use of insulin for bodybuilding is a complete waste of time and dangerous to boot?
It's worked great for me, but I only use 20IU preworkout and then don't eat carbs the rest of the day. I always just assumed that it allows me to eat and successully store more carbs around my workout that I would otherwise be able to eat. I;ve always been very prone to fat gain from eating carbs until I started using insulin.
FWIW, Milos taught me how to use it and I'd be happy to discuss the methodology with you via PM just to get your thoughts. But, please don;t repeat the protocol on the boards...not that you really care to anyway...lol. Are you interested?
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So, you think that human use of insulin for bodybuilding is a complete waste of time and dangerous to boot?
It's worked great for me, but I only use 20IU preworkout and then don't eat carbs the rest of the day. I always just assumed that it allows me to eat and successully store more carbs around my workout that I would otherwise be able to eat. I;ve always been very prone to fat gain from eating carbs until I started using insulin.
FWIW, Milos taught me how to use it and I'd be happy to discuss the methodology with you via PM just to get your thoughts. But, please don;t repeat the protocol on the boards...not that you really care to anyway...lol. Are you interested?
it seems to me that it works to increase muscle size - but it shouldn't be any more effective than proper nutrient timing IMO.
can't you discuss milos's methodology here and leave out exact protocols ?
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So, you think that human use of insulin for bodybuilding is a complete waste of time and dangerous to boot?
It's worked great for me, but I only use 20IU preworkout and then don't eat carbs the rest of the day. I always just assumed that it allows me to eat and successully store more carbs around my workout that I would otherwise be able to eat. I;ve always been very prone to fat gain from eating carbs until I started using insulin.
FWIW, Milos taught me how to use it and I'd be happy to discuss the methodology with you via PM just to get your thoughts. But, please don;t repeat the protocol on the boards...not that you really care to anyway...lol. Are you interested?
I'm not denying the anabolic effects of insulin. I think its an extremely anabolic hormone from teh simple fact that cells must have glucose to carry out life function. The thing is insulin doesn't distingish between fat or muscle. I'm a big guy. I've had people swear that i'm the size I am and able to handle the weights i do because I take insulin. Are they correct? Absolutely because if I didn't take insulin, I'd be dead.
The fat promoting effects of insulin are one that are often overlooked by people posting online about it. A well controlled diabetic (a person taking exogenous insulin) fights a constant battle to stay lean because of the exogenous insulin----this is a direct quote from my endocrinologist from the last appointment I had with him when we were discussing if I should drop back to a 308 and total ELITE there or push on as a SHW and get that ELITE total as SHW RAW and in single ply and then start gradually trying to drop weight.
I think the antiinsulin effects of supraphysiological doses of HGH, anabolic steroids and other drugs taken by bodybuilders, including the diets that they eat can lead to decreased insulin sensitivity. This alone means that they can "get by" with self administration of a very dangerous hormone (if administered incorrectly). They are borderline type II diabetic anyway, they just don't know it.
I think the control mechanisms for the effects of insulin are very, very tight in the body in a healthy individual and I think that i often misunderstood or simply overlooked by people taking insulin to facilitate bodybuilding because they have to goal of "getting swole" and they simply don't give a shit. These are the same people that I'm firmly convinced would inject sterilized cow shit if you could get Milos and a select few others to tell them that it works.
The power of placebo is immense, especially when you are dealing with such a powerful hormone like insulin that really have very subtle effects, but the individual taking it doesn't understand or cant comprehend that. Think about it, in terms of insulin doses you are talking 20 U---20 one onehundreths of a CC vs testosterone doses people use upwards of 1000 mg--1 to 2 grams. Thats an immense dose difference. So immense I also think its lost on some people. You can get by taking 2 grams of Test. You take 2 grams of insulin, and you will more than likely die---I say that because I'm sure theres probabl some online dipshit knowitall who'll post that they've take 5 grams of insulin and they are fine. ::)
The other fact is that insulin can and will kill you if you overdose on it.
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I'm not denying the anabolic effects of insulin. I think its an extremely anabolic hormone from teh simple fact that cells must have glucose to carry out life function. The thing is insulin doesn't distingish between fat or muscle. I'm a big guy. I've had people swear that i'm the size I am and able to handle the weights i do because I take insulin. Are they correct? Absolutely because if I didn't take insulin, I'd be dead.
The fat promoting effects of insulin are one that are often overlooked by people posting online about it. A well controlled diabetic (a person taking exogenous insulin) fights a constant battle to stay lean because of the exogenous insulin----this is a direct quote from my endocrinologist from the last appointment I had with him when we were discussing if I should drop back to a 308 and total ELITE there or push on as a SHW and get that ELITE total as SHW RAW and in single ply and then start gradually trying to drop weight.
I think the antiinsulin effects of supraphysiological doses of HGH, anabolic steroids and other drugs taken by bodybuilders, including the diets that they eat can lead to decreased insulin sensitivity. This alone means that they can "get by" with self administration of a very dangerous hormone (if administered incorrectly). They are borderline type II diabetic anyway, they just don't know it.
I think the control mechanisms for the effects of insulin are very, very tight in the body in a healthy individual and I think that i often misunderstood or simply overlooked by people taking insulin to facilitate bodybuilding because they have to goal of "getting swole" and they simply don't give a shit. These are the same people that I'm firmly convinced would inject sterilized cow shit if you could get Milos and a select few others to tell them that it works.
The power of placebo is immense, especially when you are dealing with such a powerful hormone like insulin that really have very subtle effects, but the individual taking it doesn't understand or cant comprehend that. Think about it, in terms of insulin doses you are talking 20 U---20 one onehundreths of a CC vs testosterone doses people use upwards of 1000 mg--1 to 2 grams. Thats an immense dose difference. So immense I also think its lost on some people. You can get by taking 2 grams of Test. You take 2 grams of insulin, and you will more than likely die---I say that because I'm sure theres probabl some online dipshit knowitall who'll post that they've take 5 grams of insulin and they are fine. ::)
The other fact is that insulin can and will kill you if you overdose on it.
I always enjoy reading your posts Vet. You've got a ton of knowledge but you present it in a way that is easily understood. Always a dash of humor too. I guess I had forgotten that you are a diabetic as well.
In any case, please keep posting here, you are one of about 4 or 5 people that I trust as far as info and actually learn from their posts.
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I agree with everything you wrote. IMO part of the reason I don't get fat is simply carb timing and the use of short acting insulin. I only use Humalog, which is in and out in roughly 4 hours, whereas a diabetic uses insulin all day.
In my case I take Humalog first thing in the morning with a preworkout shake, train with another shake, drink my post workout shake and then wait 45 minutes before eating a solid carb/protein meal. The rest of the day is simply protein, fibrous veggies and EFAs.
IMO the fact that I'm training certain muscles and blood flows directly to those locations is another part of the reason the carbs go there over fat. IDK, but it works.
I can eat 400g of carbs around my workout without a problem. If I didn't use insulin and spread those carbs out over the day, I would get fat as hell.
Adding in GH, T3 and Anabolics, even at relatively low doses has a huge synergistic effect. I recently jumped about 15lbs in weight and got leaner at the same time. It was the first time I had used all those compounds at the same time so that's probably part of the reason I had such a good reaction.
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the main benefit from insulin isnt anabolism but anti catabolism.
You want to expand on that? That goes against everything I've heard about insulin. I'm by no means an expert on it, or even knowledgeable but I'd really like to hear that explained.
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I can eat 400g of carbs around my workout without a problem. If I didn't use insulin and spread those carbs out over the day, I would get fat as hell.
This is pretty close to what I do as well. I can put down around 300-400gs of carbs around my workout with Slin and have not put any fat on whatsoever.
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are you running t3 or gh emmortal and if so at what dose and whats your weight bf% and height ?
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sure... ome basic stuff off the top of my head..
insulin halts the breakdown of nutrients. glycogen, fats, and proteins. there is a constant body process going on known as protein turnover or protein breakdown. during trainin this is elevated exponentially.
AAS mainly promote protein synthesis, and only weakly inhibit protein breakdown.
insulin mainly inhibits protein breakdown while only weakly promotes protein synthesis.
with elevated insulin throughout training, the natural process/reaction of elevated protein breakdown is halted, and thus you can actually be growing in the gym.
i can try to answer any more questions you have but i dont promise ill know the answers
Maybe this is a false statement, but I have heard people say that insulin is the most anabolic hormone in the body, moreso than testosterone.
Also, I would like to know how much wood a woodchuck would chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood.
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are you running t3 or gh emmortal and if so at what dose and whats your weight bf% and height ?
Yup was on 10ius of GH PWO with 50mcgs of T3 split 2x a day (25mcgs each dose). Slin I was doing about 15ius PWO the last 2 weeks of a 4 week cycle. I only do that protocol 3x a week on my big lifting days (back, legs, chest). Next run I'll probably split the GH to 2x daily administration doing 5ius in the AM and 5ius PWO and throw some IGF in there at 40mcgs bi-laterally for PWO only. I'm 5'11" at around 230lbs 11-12%. On a 4 week cycle of that I put on about 8lbs coupled with test and deca, no orals. I'd attribute a good amount of that to glycogen uptake in the muscles because I was constantly staying full. I'm in my first week of being off from that and haven't dropped any weight. I'll keep you posted if I do. That was my second run with slin so I'm not exactly the most experienced person around. The first run I leaned out quite a bit and was really flat all the time. I upped my carb intake around my slin administration and that fixed that problem. Thankfully I have a good friend who's been running slin for over 10 years and same thing happened to him and he advised the carb increase, so it was an easy fix.
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at 50mcg t3 per day, once the slin clears your system, what was your diet like? i find that at that mcg t3 i need to eat alot of junk in order to keep growing and not slip into a fat burning mode. on off days i lower it to 30mcg and still ill eat a lot of claories but i do need to eat the junk.
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I always enjoy reading your posts Vet. You've got a ton of knowledge but you present it in a way that is easily understood. Always a dash of humor too. I guess I had forgotten that you are a diabetic as well.
In any case, please keep posting here, you are one of about 4 or 5 people that I trust as far as info and actually learn from their posts.
Then follow my advice. Take everything Tbombs posts with a grain of salt. He has no real clue or understanding of physiology.
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sure... ome basic stuff off the top of my head..
insulin halts the breakdown of nutrients. glycogen, fats, and proteins. there is a constant body process going on known as protein turnover or protein breakdown. during trainin this is elevated exponentially.
AAS mainly promote protein synthesis, and only weakly inhibit protein breakdown.
insulin mainly inhibits protein breakdown while only weakly promotes protein synthesis.
with elevated insulin throughout training, the natural process/reaction of elevated protein breakdown is halted, and thus you can actually be growing in the gym.
i can try to answer any more questions you have but i dont promise ill know the answers
Please don't. You are completely missing the boat trying to show off.
The primary function of insulin is glucose metabolism. You didn't even mention that in your post. If you understand that, then the other stuff makes sense. What you are doing is taking snippets and presenting them while completely missing the big picture. Please stop.
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I'm going to comment line by line for the discussion here. Please tell me if doing it this way is too confusing
I agree with everything you wrote. IMO part of the reason I don't get fat is simply carb timing and the use of short acting insulin. I only use Humalog, which is in and out in roughly 4 hours, whereas a diabetic uses insulin all day.
The thing is the only source of insulin a diabetic has is what they are injecting (assuming Type I insulin dependant diabetic, type II's are a bit different). What I think is happening is you are taking exogenous insulin, your body is not sensing hyperglycemia as a result of that insulin keeping blood sugar in check, so you aren't secreting insulin while its being metabolized. It's out of your system relatively quickly, so then your "normal" production returns.
In my case I take Humalog first thing in the morning with a preworkout shake, train with another shake, drink my post workout shake and then wait 45 minutes before eating a solid carb/protein meal. The rest of the day is simply protein, fibrous veggies and EFAs.
Like i said above, you are taking in substantial carbohydrates in a relatively short period of time. The exogenous insulin will be used first to metabolize these carbs---this is to fat and muscle cells, so dont forget that. The thing is your deficit the rest of the day probably is a huge factor also. I have to wonder if you arent going to reach a point with that approach where you are going to actually inhibit muscle growth over time. Remember, most strenght and size gains occur hours after you are out of the gym. I dont' know this, its just a thought.
The other thing I'd like to see is what your blood glucose levels relative to your endogenous insulin levels are doing during this time--like an every 5 minute blood glucose curve. Blood glucose is a dynamic entity, meaning it goes up and down all day long within that tightly controlled normal range. Consuming 400 grams of relatively simple carbs over a 2-3 hour period will drive it up slightly even in a nondiabetic. Not consuming enough carbs with the exogenous insulin may be resulting in subclinical hypoglycemia.
I'm actually surprised you dont' have a 'rebound" collapse from this approach.
IMO the fact that I'm training certain muscles and blood flows directly to those locations is another part of the reason the carbs go there over fat. IDK, but it works.
I can eat 400g of carbs around my workout without a problem. If I didn't use insulin and spread those carbs out over the day, I would get fat as hell.
I don't know.
Adding in GH, T3 and Anabolics, even at relatively low doses has a huge synergistic effect. I recently jumped about 15lbs in weight and got leaner at the same time. It was the first time I had used all those compounds at the same time so that's probably part of the reason I had such a good reaction.
GH and anabolics have an insulin desensitizing effect (GH more than anabolics, but anabolics at certian doses do), so this comes back what I've been saying with bodybuilders taking drugs that inhibit insulin function.
To me this gets very, very complex with many small variables that need to be considered.
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I'm sorry, there is one thing I forgot to mention that's important....
I only go zero carb the rest of the day when dieting (approximately 4,000 calories). When trying to grow, I add in some carbs with each meal that was zero carb on the diet version, except for the last one or two meals. Usually about a cup of barley, rice, lentils, etc. My carbs go up in total to about 500-600g from the 400g I eat when dieting. The rest of my macros stay the same.
What do you mean by a 'rebound' effect? Before I started using insulin preworkout, I used to have minor hypoglycemic episodes about an hour and a half after my PWO shake. Once I started using the Humalog and added in the solid meal 45 minutes later it went away. The rest of the day I feel great.
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Please don't. You are completely missing the boat trying to show off.
The primary function of insulin is glucose metabolism. You didn't even mention that in your post. If you understand that, then the other stuff makes sense. What you are doing is taking snippets and presenting them while completely missing the big picture. Please stop.
Come on now, he was talking from an athlete standpoint. What he said wasn't incorrect. I mean, do you disagree that it primarily blunts protein breakdown while it doesn't increase protein synthesis (until extreme concentrations are achieved*)? From an athlete standpoint.
Take a look at this. See the "is insulin a performance enhancing drug?" section. Do you disagree with what is written there?
http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/cgi/reprint/170/1/13
‘Street talk’ indicates that insulin is also being used in
a more haphazard way, particularly to increase muscle
bulk in body builders, weight lifters and power lifters.
This use is allegedly by regular injections of shortacting
insulin together with high carbohydrate diets.
Through this therapeutic regime it is almost certainly
possible to increase muscle bulk and performance not
only through increasing muscle glycogen stores on a
‘chronic’ basis but also by increasing muscle bulk
through inhibition of muscle protein breakdown. Just
as insulin has a chalonic action in inhibiting glucose
breakdown in muscle glycogen, it also has an equally
important chalonic action in inhibiting protein breakdown.
Indeed, the evidence now indicates that insulin
does NOT stimulate protein synthesis directly (this
process is under the control of GH and insulin-like
growth factor-I (IGF-I)). It has long been known that
insulin-treated patients with diabetes have an increase
in lean body mass when compared with matched
controls (Sinha et al. 1996).
Taken together, all these points support the concern
shown by the Russian medical officer in Nagano and the
immediate response of the IOC to ban the use of insulin in
those without diabetes.
You haven't really answered the question whether you think exogenous insulin can be anabolic (directly or indirectly) beyond what you can achieve through dietary manipulation. What do you say? Although I haven't been impressed with it myself I'm sure it does help an athlete in certain situations, to a certain degree. All the mechanisms may not have been clearly elucidated but it's been in use long enough to not be totally a placebo drug (has been used for decades by athletes, for example Russian Olympic athletes**).
*
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/274/6/E1067
**
http://www.sportsci.org/encyc/drafts/Pharmacology.doc
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Ask Tbombs. He knows all and he'll google you an explaination.
Look, I'm tired of the trolls on this board. You can't discuss something without some little know it all jumping in and being an asshole. Tbombz, candiizzle, whatever the fuck his name is just another in a long line of them. It doesn't matter what I post, those assholes will say I don't know what i'm talking about. I'm tired of preaching into the wind. Fuck it.
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you aint preaching to the wind...there are a lot of ppl on this board that respect your knowledge...insulin is something not to be fucked around with
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Ask Tbombs. He knows all and he'll google you an explaination.
Look, I'm tired of the trolls on this board. You can't discuss something without some little know it all jumping in and being an asshole. Tbombz, candiizzle, whatever the fuck his name is just another in a long line of them. It doesn't matter what I post, those assholes will say I don't know what i'm talking about. I'm tired of preaching into the wind. Fuck it.
Don't tell me you expect this to be a doctor roundtable. This is getbig after all! :D
There isn't a bb forum on the net where you wouldn't find resistance. A doc would object to everything in this or any other bodybuilding forum. :D
you aint preaching to the wind...there are a lot of ppl on this board that respect your knowledge...insulin is something not to be fucked around with
Maybe, maybe not. But it is used and will continue to be used by athletes.
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Vet, please don't go. We value your opinion. Just don't respond to the trolls. :)
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at 50mcg t3 per day, once the slin clears your system, what was your diet like? i find that at that mcg t3 i need to eat alot of junk in order to keep growing and not slip into a fat burning mode. on off days i lower it to 30mcg and still ill eat a lot of claories but i do need to eat the junk.
Well you have to remember I'm on GH as well which inhibits thyroid function so 25mcgs of that T3 is just a maintanence dose, and the other 25mcgs is close to what you're running. I don't eat a lot of junk food on that dose. Anything above that and it's ice cream city for me.
I didn't really find that this thread was getting ridiculous at all. There's some good discussion going on, albeit some people seem like they don't like to be questioned. This is a bodybuilding board after all, not mens health digest so we're not going to be using certain compounds for their normal prescribed function. There's a reason BB'rs use insulin and have been using it, and I'm definitely all for learning the more clinical uses of it and how it effects other functions in the body, so I say let the discussion continue on as long as things stay civil, I don't see the harm.
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I would like to see some pics of some of these guys on here running all this GH, thyroid, anabolics and insulin. I hope they at least resemble top level bodybuilders after all that. I mean it would be pretty sad to just look average and have to take all that shit.
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I would like to see some pics of some of these guys on here running all this GH, thyroid, anabolics and insulin. I hope they at least resemble top level bodybuilders after all that. I mean it would be pretty sad to just look average and have to take all that shit.
I took this pic this morning:
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Don't tell me you expect this to be a doctor roundtable. This is getbig after all! :D
There isn't a bb forum on the net where you wouldn't find resistance. A doc would object to everything in this or any other bodybuilding forum. :D
Maybe, maybe not. But it is used and will continue to be used by athletes.
Im not knocking anyone that uses it...but some of these horror stories sway me from ever using it..besides my goal in life is not to be a professional bodybuilder...its not worth the risk for me...rather take some abombs and test...how has it effected you health wise from using insulin?
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I would like to see some pics of some of these guys on here running all this GH, thyroid, anabolics and insulin. I hope they at least resemble top level bodybuilders after all that. I mean it would be pretty sad to just look average and have to take all that shit.
Not exactly a productive post now is it ::)
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I would like to see some pics of some of these guys on here running all this GH, thyroid, anabolics and insulin. I hope they at least resemble top level bodybuilders after all that. I mean it would be pretty sad to just look average and have to take all that shit.
do you believe its possible for somebody to use all those substances, eat decently well, train regularly, and still look average ?
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do you believe its possible for somebody to use all those substances, eat decently well, train regularly, and still look average ?
Of course it's possible.
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do you believe its possible for somebody to use all those substances, eat decently well, train regularly, and still look average ?
It certainly is. I know a few guys who would put anyone on this board to shame with the dosages they run and you wouldn't even know the took anything at all by looking at them.
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It certainly is. I know a few guys who would put anyone on this board to shame with the dosages they run and you wouldn't even know the took anything at all by looking at them.
I always feel bad for those guys.
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okay oKay let me re phrase
taking all LEGIT substances.
lol
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It certainly is. I know a few guys who would put anyone on this board to shame with the dosages they run and you wouldn't even know the took anything at all by looking at them.
maybe a few of the items they use are fake or underdosed?
theres plenty of that out there...
just a thought
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okay oKay let me re phrase
taking all LEGIT substances.
lol
Yes, it's possible. Some people just don't have the genetics to respond well.
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do you believe its possible for somebody to use all those substances, eat decently well, train regularly, and still look average ?
By average, I mean an average gym rat, not an average untrained guy. Let's put it this way, I know some guys at my gym that are on some serious stuff and they don't really look any better than me at 45 and natural. I have pics in my 20's when I was only taking 6 winstrol tabs a day and I look better than some of these guys that say they're on Gh and insulin, etc. The point is if you're going to risk causing some eventual, possibly permanent endocrine imbalances, you better look pretty phenomenol in return or else it's not really worth it.
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maybe a few of the items they use are fake or underdosed?
theres plenty of that out there...
just a thought
Quite the possibility, I'm pretty sure they aren't running HG gear. I also just don't think they respond well. I'm not really close with them but they talk to be about their cycles and I was pretty blown away heh. I also think they probably aren't really dedicated to their diet and training as they should be. All of which are deciding factors.
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Im not knocking anyone that uses it...but some of these horror stories sway me from ever using it..besides my goal in life is not to be a professional bodybuilder...its not worth the risk for me...rather take some abombs and test...how has it effected you health wise from using insulin?
Personally, I think A bombs are much worse for your health than insulin. Not even close... Now, if you overdose on insulin that's another story...
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BTW, since I started insulin & GH, I've gotten much better overall results than ever before, all while using lower doses of anabolics. Could I be 20 lbs heavier? Sure, easy, but I'm not willing to up the anabolics to crazy doses, or even above 500 mg of Test EW for that matter. In reality, I will probably lower my dose of anabolics soon so I don't outgrow all of my business clothes.
Current: 218 lbs and ~ 7-8% bf @ 6'
I just don't have the desire to be much bigger, but with the way I use insulin I stay lean all year long.
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By average, I mean an average gym rat, not an average untrained guy. Let's put it this way, I know some guys at my gym that are on some serious stuff and they don't really look any better than me at 45 and natural. I have pics in my 20's when I was only taking 6 winstrol tabs a day and I look better than some of these guys that say they're on Gh and insulin, etc. The point is if you're going to risk causing some eventual, possibly permanent endocrine imbalances, you better look pretty phenomenol in return or else it's not really worth it.
Who is to say what is worth it?
Ok, so you say they might have crappy genetics. Perhaps their development achieved from abuse of certain drugs is far more satisfying to them than maybe to you. Just because they may not compare well to a top level bodybuilder does not necessarily mean they are not happy with their results. Who is to say that drug excesses should be accompanied by a top level physique?
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Who is to say what is worth it?
Ok, so you say they might have crappy genetics. Perhaps their development achieved from abuse of certain drugs is far more satisfying to them than maybe to you. Just because they may not compare well to a top level bodybuilder does not necessarily mean they are not happy with their results. Who is to say that drug excesses should be accompanied by a top level physique?
Yeah, I'm married now and off the market, but I was always very satisfied with getting a lot of pussy rather than being huge. Who cares about having a top level physique?
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Come on now, he was talking from an athlete standpoint. What he said wasn't incorrect. I mean, do you disagree that it primarily blunts protein breakdown while it doesn't increase protein synthesis (until extreme concentrations are achieved*)? From an athlete standpoint.
Take a look at this. See the "is insulin a performance enhancing drug?" section. Do you disagree with what is written there?
http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/cgi/reprint/170/1/13
You haven't really answered the question whether you think exogenous insulin can be anabolic (directly or indirectly) beyond what you can achieve through dietary manipulation. What do you say? Although I haven't been impressed with it myself I'm sure it does help an athlete in certain situations, to a certain degree. All the mechanisms may not have been clearly elucidated but it's been in use long enough to not be totally a placebo drug (has been used for decades by athletes, for example Russian Olympic athletes**).
*
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/274/6/E1067
**
http://www.sportsci.org/encyc/drafts/Pharmacology.doc
The problem I've got with insulin is the counterregulatory hormones that everyone seems to forget so easily. Will it help an athlete who has induced subclinical diabetes by taking GH and high dose androgens---absolutely because of the drug induced insulin resistant state they have put themselve into.
Will it help a natural athelete? No, I dont' think it will anymore than natural insulin manipulation.
Did that answer your question?
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Theres so many guys out there with unbelievable physiques who are nameless and faceless. BayGBM posts all these photos of guys he finds attractive who could easily place at a pro show. Yet we don't even know their name or anything about them for that matter. Sevastase posts many pictures of phenomenal physiques from Europe we know nothing about. There are many many great top level physiques out there which have yielded minimal rewards in the greater scheme of things. This suggests to me that many of the benefits of bodybuilding are not extrinsic but rather intrinsic. I doubt these faceless and nameless people were dieting, training and spending thousands on drugs just for a $100 photoshoot for gay material.
So once again I question the "need" for a top level physique from an individual using high doses and an array of substances?
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that right, there are plenty of gus aroun the globe who could compete o the olympia stage if they chose to, but dont 9for whatever reason).
take a look at that massive white guy from south africa.
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Who is to say what is worth it?
Ok, so you say they might have crappy genetics. Perhaps their development achieved from abuse of certain drugs is far more satisfying to them than maybe to you. Just because they may not compare well to a top level bodybuilder does not necessarily mean they are not happy with their results. Who is to say that drug excesses should be accompanied by a top level physique?
Well, I've been in this game a while. Been training since I was 13 years old. I know guys personally, and I see them on the forums ..late 20's, whining that they no longer produce decent test levels, need to go on HRT for life. Now you'll see guys that will abuse thyroid drugs, and will eventually have some serious imbalances there. It is only logical, if you know how the endocrine system works, that long term insulin use will eventually prevent the pancreas from secreting optimum insulin levels. If you think being on insulin for life is so great, maybe you don't know diabetics that have gone blind or lost limbs. Replace any hormone in your body and eventually the body produces less of it's own. Insulin is no exception. Imagining having all these problems and all you achieved out of it was a mediocre physique? But again, as you said, for some people (usually those with deep rooted insecurities) it may be all worth it.
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Vet, please don't go. We value your opinion. Just don't respond to the trolls. :)
Yeah, I know stupid is as stupid does.
I also know that little fuck knows he rubs me the wrong way. He reminds me of the loudmouthed geeky kid in a highschool science class. Willing to argue about anything, but never really making sense.
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The problem I've got with insulin is the counterregulatory hormones. Will it help an athlete who has induced subclinical diabetes by taking GH and high dose androgens---absolutely because of the drug induced insulin resistant state they have put themselve into.
This was pretty much the sole reason for my undertaking of insulin use, high doses of GH pretty much need insulin to counteract the subclinical diabetes issue.
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I would like to see some pics of some of these guys on here running all this GH, thyroid, anabolics and insulin. I hope they at least resemble top level bodybuilders after all that. I mean it would be pretty sad to just look average and have to take all that shit.
I would too.
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Well, I've been in this game a while. Been training since I was 13 years old. I know guys personally, and I see them on the forums ..late 20's, whining that they no longer produce decent test levels, need to go on HRT for life. Now you'll see guys that will abuse thyroid drugs, and will eventually have some serious imbalances there. It is only logical, if you know how the endocrine system works, that long term insulin use will eventually prevent the pancreas from secreting optimum insulin levels. If you think being on insulin for life is so great, maybe you don't know diabetics that have gone blind or lost limbs. Replace any hormone in your body and eventually the body produces less of it's own. Insulin is no exception. Imagining having all these problems and all you achieved out of it was a mediocre physique? But again, as you said, for some people (usually those with deep rooted insecurities) it may be all worth it.
I see your logic, but I don't think it would work that way with out a genetic predisposition. They are much more likely to induce TypeII diabetes from GH abuse.
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I always feel bad for those guys.
I don't.
The ones I feel sorry for are the ones who cannot fathom how a person taking all those drugs won't have an olympia level physique. They miss the point completely that different people respond differently to drugs of all types, anabolics included. They also miss the point of how important mindset, training, and diet are.
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Replace any hormone in your body and eventually the body produces less of it's own.
not true. in fact only one hormone works that way and its testosterone.
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I see your logic, but I don't think it would work that way with out a genetic predisposition. They are much more likely to induce TypeII diabetes from GH abuse.
Thing is though I haven't heard of this actually happening and I know a few guys who've been running GH since the mid 90's. I'm not saying it's not a possibility because I believe it to be, but I just haven't heard/seen it happen.
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I see your logic, but I don't think it would work that way with out a genetic predisposition. They are much more likely to induce TypeII diabetes from GH abuse.
Well, I respect your opinion on this, so I'll ask you this. Do you feel if a non-diabetic were to chronically take large doses of insulin for a long period of time and then stopped, there would be no effect on their own natural insulin production?
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Well, I've been in this game a while. Been training since I was 13 years old. I know guys personally, and I see them on the forums ..late 20's, whining that they no longer produce decent test levels, need to go on HRT for life.
You know what that is right?
They are so used to being on steroids that they don't like their normal physiological levels of testosterone. So they go on "hrt" to be sure they are a little higher than average. Its just a way of always being "on".
As Van_Bilderass often says Did they test their natural levels before a they started steroids? For most cases, no.
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You know what that is right?
They are so used to being on steroids that they don't like their normal physiological levels of testosterone. So they go on "hrt" to be sure they are a little higher than average. Its just a way of always being "on".
hey, that makes sense...
and come to think of it i dont recall ever seeing any studies or science to prove that endogenous proction of testopsterone is ever shut off completely
and since we KNOW that thyroid function and other hormones all came right back to normal even afetr long term use of exogenous homrones..
hmm..
makes sense
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not true. in fact only one hormone works that way and its testosterone.
Not true. Measure anyone's thyroid levels after thet've been on a while and they go off. They can be suppressed for quite a while.
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Not true. Measure anyone's thyroid levels after thet've been on a while and they go off. They can be suppressed for quite a while.
If I recall correctly, normal T3/T4 protocols utilise tapering of dosages before coming off them
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Not true. Measure anyone's thyroid levels after thet've been on a while and they go off. They can be suppressed for quite a while.
Well there have been studies showing people on thyroid meds for decades coming off and the thyroid bounces back in a few months.
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If I recall correctly, normal T3/T4 protocols utilise tapering of dosages before coming off them
True, but T-bombz said only testosterone suppresses your own output and I'm saying thyoid drugs also are supressive.
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Not true. Measure anyone's thyroid levels after thet've been on a while and they go off. They can be suppressed for quite a while.
no dude ..i dont have time to go dig up a link for you at the moment but do a search on this one... youll see that regardless of time supressed, thyroid levels always come back to normal, and within the same amoutnt of time regardless of term of exogenous usse, in all people who use exogenous thyroid... all the studies done on this show this...
btu for now i must go shower im off for some fun
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True, but T-bombz said only testosterone suppresses your own output and I'm saying thyoid drugs also are supressive.
no no no what i said was it only effectsit after you come off
of course they all supress during useage
but ive gotta run..
but this is what i was saying..
==
Well there have been studies showing people on thyroid meds for decades coming off and the thyroid bounces back in a few months.
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Well, I respect your opinion on this, so I'll ask you this. Do you feel if a non-diabetic were to chronically take large doses of insulin for a long period of time and then stopped, there would be no effect on their own natural insulin production?
Yes, there probably would be a down regulation of the beta cells within the body and change in insulin response. This happens with virtually all hormones in the body---from estrogen, to progesterone (think about women having to take fertility drugs after long term LOW doses of those hormones in birth control pills) to testosterone production to thyroid to cortisol for people who are on long term prednisone therapy. The body by and large makes what it needs. No more, no less. Excess (or lack of) causes problems over time.
What I'd expect them to see is short term hyperglycemia after ingestion of a simple carbohydrate meal. The thing is I'm not sure of anyone who has done this---becauseit would require taking enough insulin to stop normal production---and not enough to induce iatrogenic diabetes from excessive cortisol (a cushings like syndrome) production due to chronic hypoglycemia.
It'd take a very carefully designed experimental protocol to induce this in a nondiabetic. One I don't see being done to prove it.
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Well there have been studies showing people on thyroid meds for decades coming off and the thyroid bounces back in a few months.
Yes, in a few months. Its not the day after. There is still suppression and a time frame that the body has to recover from.
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Yes, in a few months. Its not the day after. There is still suppression and a time frame that the body has to recover from.
Yea, which obviously there's going to be a time in which you're going to have some issues with low thyroid levels during that recovery period.
Back to insulin. Most slin protocols have you doing slin 4 weeks at a time, then coming off for 4 weeks to avoid long term natural suppression. Do you think, knowing what you know about how the pancreas works, that this is a viable protocol or are you still going to run into long term problems?
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its going to be more likely to induce hypyglycemia, which, under specific conditions will result in increased amino acid uptake and GH release. The thing is you have to time everything absolutely right. There are too many variables involved for me to think that this is something that could be reliably reproduced without negative consequences. The counterregulatory hormone release (cortisol, epinephrine, etc) that the body has to be considered.
You worded my hypothesis exactly......but as I thought, it's nothing that can be exacted, just like Insulin.
Those pesky counterregulatory mechanisms always fuck things up for bodybuilders hoping to get an edge.
DIV
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Yea, which obviously there's going to be a time in which you're going to have some issues with low thyroid levels during that recovery period.
Back to insulin. Most slin protocols have you doing slin 4 weeks at a time, then coming off for 4 weeks to avoid long term natural suppression. Do you think, knowing what you know about how the pancreas works, that this is a viable protocol or are you still going to run into long term problems?
I think there are still too many variables to give an exact answer that holds true for everyone-genetic predisposition for diabetes and what their blood glucose levels were prior to starting the insulin are two huge ones. Another is how much weight are they gaining and how rapidly. Sudden rapid weight gain can affect insulin sensitivity--I know this from my own experiences.
I'd like to see the blood glucose levels and A1C' and Fructosamines of the individuals following those protocols. I have to wonder if there is or isn't a change from baseline. If you were to do this and see substantial changes from baseline, I'd be very very cautious becuase you are seeing subclinical---ie the person isnt' noticing--changes within their body that indicate a major physiological response. If there are absolutely no changes, then I have to wonder if the insulin was doing anything at all. Instead the body is keeping things in check.
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This is pretty close to what I do as well. I can put down around 300-400gs of carbs around my workout with Slin and have not put any fat on whatsoever.
studies show this can be done without slin. :-\
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I don't.
The ones I feel sorry for are the ones who cannot fathom how a person taking all those drugs won't have an olympia level physique. They miss the point completely that different people respond differently to drugs of all types, anabolics included. They also miss the point of how important mindset, training, and diet are.
vet, can you show me any study to back this claim?
i have read quite a few papers on anabolics and i have never came across a non responder to gear - everyone responds via growth. Maybe not Ronnie coleman size growth, but growth nontheless.
i agree diet, training are a big part, and people can respond differently in terms of side effects.
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studies show this can be done without slin. :-\
True, but using Humalog preworkout, you make sure the carbs go where they are supposed to go. The muscles I work are so jammed packed with glycogen it's amazing.
Personally, after experimenting with insulin for a while, I don't think you really get a huge benefit unless you combine it with GH, T3 and Anabolics. The synergy between those drugs is amazing. That being said, Humalog preworkout does work extremely well in between cycles along with some clen to keep you in an anabolic state.
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vet, can you show me any study to back this claim?
i have read quite a few papers on anabolics and i have never came across a non responder to gear - everyone responds via growth. Maybe not Ronnie coleman size growth, but growth nontheless.
i agree diet, training are a big part, and people can respond differently in terms of side effects.
You know, I can't, not in terms of muscle growth. I'm not sure if this is something thats been investigated though----remember up until a couple of years ago in the science world anabolic steroids didn't enhance muscle growth.
There are some reports of nadrolone being administered to and having no effect in kidney failure and HIV patients, but those individuals obviously have some serious health problems.
I guess I'm thinking of the gym rat that seems to hang around so many larger commercial gyms. You talk to them and they are taking everything including the kitchen sink drug wise, yet they still look like exercise is merely a fantasy. They aren't morbidly fat, they just don't seem to see anything from their work. I can think of two individuals I know personally like that. One, I think has to have the absolute fastest metabolism I've ever seen in a human being and I've wondered if he'd stop the drugs and simply eat alot more if he'd actually gain some weight. He's also one of those twigs who's scared of the slightest bit of bodyfat, so as soon as his "ripped abs" ::) blure up a bit, he's cutting trying to get them back. I know for a fact he's taken upwards of 750 mg of test a week with 400 mg eq and I dont' think he gained any measurable weight or strength.
The other person I'm thinking of is someone who used to try to hang with us powerlifters when I lived in NYC. He wanted to get big. He never did. He had that perpetual potgut, skinny arms, skinny legs, almost looked cushinoid. I also know he was taking various anabolic substances. I swear I'll crap myself the day he's able to bench press 275. It just seemed like it wouldn't happen with him. In his case he ate probably the cleanest diet i've ever seen a person eat perpetually. He took in adequate protein, he trained hard. He just never grew the year and a half we went to the same gym. He sure didn't gain any strength.
I'll have to do a literature search when I get some time and see if I can find a documented "nonresponder".
One huge factor is quality of the gear that a person is taking in combination with mindset. I just have a very hard time believing that drug dealers---which is what black market steroid dealers are---are manufacturing overdosed or even half dosed products. Logic says they are going to make the absolute minum active ingredient in a product with the minimal degree of sterility that will prevent abcesses from every injection. I also think if people legitimately think that a product is going to cause muscle growth in the average person, they will see some form of increase in size. A person can literally will strength and size increases if their mindset is correct and they BELIEVE what they are taking or how they are training will increase muscle mass.
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True, but using Humalog preworkout, you make sure the carbs go where they are supposed to go. The muscles I work are so jammed packed with glycogen it's amazing.
And how does it do this? Exogenous insulin activates the same receptors endogenous insulin does, there isnt some mystery receptor that only exogenous insulin responds too.
***I'm not trying to give you shit, I'm just trying to understand what you are saying in your post. I think the way I'm reading it is different than what you were trying to say****
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One huge factor is quality of the gear that a person is taking in combination with mindset. I just have a very hard time believing that drug dealers---which is what black market steroid dealers are---are manufacturing overdosed or even half dosed products. Logic says they are going to make the absolute minum active ingredient in a product with the minimal degree of sterility that will prevent abcesses from every injection. I also think if people legitimately think that a product is going to cause muscle growth in the average person, they will see some form of increase in size. A person can literally will strength and size increases if their mindset is correct and they BELIEVE what they are taking or how they are training will increase muscle mass.
i agree completely with this.
i know what you mean regarding the gym rats that never get bigger or stronger - however i believe that if they are not responding it is because of :
a) fake or underdosed gear
b) reached genetic limit in size achievable on that gear dosage, or other hormones are fighting back to return to homeostasis, i..e. cortisol etc
c) diet is poor i.e not enough calories, or protein, maybe even too many bad fats, alcohol intake etc
d) training is poor, i.e. not enough volume, and no progressive resistance employed.
e) overtraining/lack of proper recovery i.e. not enough sleep, or to much frequency etc
if these are all adressed properly, even the AXA's and sevatestes of this world would grown to an impressive size, untill eventually b) happens.
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And how does it do this? Exogenous insulin activates the same receptors endogenous insulin does, there isnt some mystery receptor that only exogenous insulin responds too.
***I'm not trying to give you shit, I'm just trying to understand what you are saying in your post. I think the way I'm reading it is different than what you were trying to say****
It's my fault...I was unclear. I speculate that the blood flow to the muscles while weight training with insulin helps the nutrients go to the muscles rather than elsewhere (fat). But, I have absolutely zero scientific basis for this belief. I can only go by the results I get, which are very positive.
BTW, what did you mean earlier when you said you are surprised I don't get a "rebound effect."
Also, how do you explain the placebo effect? I know it's a medical reality, but I find it fascinating. What do you think happens within the body?
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It's my fault...I was unclear. I speculate that the blood flow to the muscles while weight training with insulin helps the nutrients go to the muscles rather than elsewhere (fat). But, I have absolutely zero scientific basis for this belief. I can only go by the results I get, which are very positive.
BTW, what did you mean earlier when you said you are surprised I don't get a "rebound effect."
Also, how do you explain the placebo effect? I know it's a medical reality, but I find it fascinating. What do you think happens within the body?
Sorry, I missed the rebound effect..... basically this occurs in some individuals when they take in a large quantity of relatively simple carbohydrates over a short period of time. Basically I was referring to a "sugar low" or "sugar crash"---which may be a term you are more familiar with. Its also something you described when you talked about not taking insulin but taking in that huge load of carbs.
What happens in intiially blood glucose levels will go up, then the body responds by secreting insulin, which in some individuals can result in rapid falling blood glucose levels later on---the "crash", which also leads to the secretion of regulatory hormones to stabilize the blood glucose levels. I'm not sure how to figure in your exogenous insulin administration other than you are a person prone to blood glucose swings (which you've more or less proven with your descriptions of how you felt without exogenous insulin, but to be thorough, you'd have to check fructosamine levels and look at serial blood glucoses to prove it) and by taking exogenous insulin you don't experience that wide effect becuase your blood sugar doesn't deviate substantially from normal. You don't go high then drop suddenly. This may explain the reason you've seen such a positive response to insulin. It may also be an indication of problems in the future---problems like Type II diabetes because at this time your body can't seem to handle a high carbohydrate load. Does that makes sense?
Placebo and mindset about lifting weights is a whole other other topic I could harp on for pages and pages. I see it all the time in the veterinary field---in order for a treatement to work, an owner has to believe it will work for their pet. This carries over into human medicine too and especially in teh traditional Chinese and Herbal medicine modalities. Cancer patients are prime examples. I've seen people with end stage cancer literally will themselves back to life and on with their lives. Why? because they decided they could do it. At the same time, I've seen cancer just rip through a person and within weeks of being diagnosed, they are dead. Why? I think because that person didn't get up and go back to work, instead they layed in bed, they felt sorry for themselves, and ultimately, they let the cancer beat them. The same holds true with weight training. I'm a powerlifter. I have to decide I'm going to squat 800+ lbs or bench 500+ lbs or its never going to happen. That mental game is why you can see some individuals consistantly lift 20-40 lb PRs (I'm one of those individuals) on the platform, but not be able to do it in the gym until the day of the meet. I also see it with one of my training partners. He's been beat up through his life. He'll come into the gym bitching and moaning most days about aches and pains. If my wife--a smallish woman---gives him crap, the aches and pains suddenly disappear and he starts training hard. He's strong when he gets that mindset. He's not worth a shit until she gets in his face. Why? His mindset isn't right.
All of this ties in in my mind in bodybuilders taking drugs. Bodybuilding is a combination of weight training, evaluation of appearance, and a diet that in my mind can at times take an iron will to get through to get to even close to competitive conditioning. Yet you see so many people posting on message boards like this one looking for a shortcut. I'm not talking about the national level competitor looking for that last little bit of an edge, I'm talking more about the noncompetitive lifter who wants to "gain a little mass" or "get swole" or "get cut". These individuals will more than likely gain or lose 5 lbs if they'd just eat right and go to the gym. They don't need any magical pill to make them do it, yet because of Americas pill popping society, they take them. This is why the supplement industry has made itself a multibillion dollar industry and its why blackmarket underground labs are able to still make a fortune. Its also why certian people claim 20 lb gains from cell tech in 3 weeks and/or underground underdosed, mislabeled anabolics.
If a person decides they want to do something, and they want to do it bad enough, they can literally will their body to do what their brain wants. It just takes the right mindset.
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One huge factor is quality of the gear that a person is taking in combination with mindset. I just have a very hard time believing that drug dealers---which is what black market steroid dealers are---are manufacturing overdosed or even half dosed products. Logic says they are going to make the absolute minum active ingredient in a product with the minimal degree of sterility that will prevent abcesses from every injection.
The Chinese hormone powders were so cheap that I don't doubt they sometimes overdosed their products. Customs have ordered products analyzed and this is what they showed - massively overdosed in some instances. Like 800mg/ml EQ from IP tested by Canadian customs IIRC. Many of them have insane benzyl alcohol content to keep it from crashing (hormone coming out of solution).
See this for example:
http://www.bodyofscience.com/labreports/images/lj_cuta7owpyspzq.doc
Then came the tests on Winstrol[from vipershop.org, Spain], the trade name for stanazolol, the powerful steroid linked to slugger Rafael Palmeiro
The label on the bottle, shipped from Madrid, said each pill was 50 milligrams. Ullmann's team found they were 91 milligrams each, a concentration of steroids 82 percent higher than the amount on the label.
Of course, many were lower than advertised and some contained toxic heavy metals but overdosing has occurred.
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The Chinese hormone powders were so cheap that I don't doubt they sometimes overdosed their products. Customs have ordered products analyzed and this is what they showed - massively overdosed in some instances. Like 800mg/ml EQ from IP tested by Canadian customs IIRC. Many of them have insane benzyl alcohol content to keep it from crashing (hormone coming out of solution).
See this for example:
http://www.bodyofscience.com/labreports/images/lj_cuta7owpyspzq.doc
Of course, many were lower than advertised and some contained toxic heavy metals but overdosing has occurred.
its gonna be more profitable in the long run to sell overdosed gear than other kinds of gear,,, THAT is business 101.. ask any body selling anything... the better the product, with equal cost, the higher the demand.. more sales = more money..
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its gonna be more profitable in the long run to sell overdosed gear than other kinds of gear,,, THAT is business 101.. ask any body selling anything... the better the product, with equal cost, the higher the demand.. more sales = more money..
I know you're a newb and haven't been around the game much, but you need to realize something...
since the 90's, EVER major underground lab has worked on the principle you just outlined, they start off with wayyy overdosed, crazy hyped products (ie. 320mg test e being sold as 200mg test e) within a few months word of mouth gets around and they establish themselves, then the person running the lab starts to pull back on the leash. Slowly, all of a sudden that crazy test E from X labs that was overdosed to 320mg/cc becomes 120mg/cc .. and it keeps sliding down from there..
what do you think happened to British Dragon? and other great labs from the past? exact same story.
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And overdosing is as bad as underdosing, pretty much.
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So why don't they just make products that have what they claim on the label? Would word of mouth not get around that their stuff works just the way it's supposed to? I'm sure that doing things right would create a stable, loyal customer base for them would it not?
What's the point of selling bunk stuff? Sure you'll trick a few ppl but anyone who knows anything about AAS will only buy from them once. So they get a bit of cash one time but then miss out on repeat orders, referrals, things of that nature. Same thing with the guys who selective scam. What's the point? I've had the pleasant experience of losing a decent chunk of change to someone who decided to send half my order and then just ignore me. Ok, keep my money, he's missed out on everything I have ordered since, orders from friends and everything I will ever order in the future. Why would you want to make say 500 dollars of pure profit one time (no cost to him since he didn't send anything) as opposed to receiving thousands of dollars over a couple of years? Even with shitty profit margins, which I know they don't have, you would make far more money over time. That's not including the fact that I have personally stopped more than one person from placing their own orders with said supplier.
Yeah yeah, meltdown.
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I know you're a newb and haven't been around the game much, but you need to realize something...
since the 90's, EVER major underground lab has worked on the principle you just outlined, they start off with wayyy overdosed, crazy hyped products (ie. 320mg test e being sold as 200mg test e) within a few months word of mouth gets around and they establish themselves, then the person running the lab starts to pull back on the leash. Slowly, all of a sudden that crazy test E from X labs that was overdosed to 320mg/cc becomes 120mg/cc .. and it keeps sliding down from there..
what do you think happened to British Dragon? and other great labs from the past? exact same story.
Yup, thats basic economics. Anyone who argues against it is either stupid or doesn't have a clue. Establish the market, then once the market is established sell the bare minimum product and live off your reputation. Why? Because it takes the same powder to produce one vial 300 mg/ml test as it does TWO vials of 150 mg/ml Test. TWO vials is TWICE the profit. Its not that hard to understand. These are illegal drug dealers, they aren't creating testosterone because they want you to have big biceps. They are doing it to make money.
Once the underdosed product is on the market, occasionally eat the cost and throw out a batch of vials here or there or make sure they go to new customers or established long term (loud mouthed) customers that are overdosed. Eat that little bit of extra cost and pocket the money that they bring in.
Its not that hard to understand.
Honestly, if they aren't doing something like that, I'd be even more scared to buy something because they flat out are careless and don't give two shits whats in the product they are making. Who knows what might be in that vial.
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So why don't they just make products that have what they claim on the label? Would word of mouth not get around that their stuff works just the way it's supposed to? I'm sure that doing things right would create a stable, loyal customer base for them would it not?
What's the point of selling bunk stuff? Sure you'll trick a few ppl but anyone who knows anything about AAS will only buy from them once. So they get a bit of cash one time but then miss out on repeat orders, referrals, things of that nature. Same thing with the guys who selective scam. What's the point? I've had the pleasant experience of losing a decent chunk of change to someone who decided to send half my order and then just ignore me. Ok, keep my money, he's missed out on everything I have ordered since, orders from friends and everything I will ever order in the future. Why would you want to make say 500 dollars of pure profit one time (no cost to him since he didn't send anything) as opposed to receiving thousands of dollars over a couple of years? Even with shitty profit margins, which I know they don't have, you would make far more money over time. That's not including the fact that I have personally stopped more than one person from placing their own orders with said supplier.
Yeah yeah, meltdown.
Legitimate question because I don't know the answer: Can you tell the difference between testosterone (as an example) thats dosed at 200 mg vs 300 mg/ml? Or even 300 mg vs 500 mg/ml? Think about it, you think you are dosing real product. You have no reason to suspect it. 200 mg/ml will show some effect, but its not fully dosed.
Now think about that and think about the guy down the street who says it does nothing. You are taking the same product. You are up 10 lbs and stronger. Which one can you blieve without testing the product?
And its not like you can run the product to the local university for analysis.
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Legitimate question because I don't know the answer: Can you tell the difference between testosterone (as an example) thats dosed at 200 mg vs 300 mg/ml? Or even 300 mg vs 500 mg/ml? Think about it, you think you are dosing real product. You have no reason to suspect it. 200 mg/ml will show some effect, but its not fully dosed.
Now think about that and think about the guy down the street who says it does nothing. You are taking the same product. You are up 10 lbs and stronger. Which one can you blieve without testing the product?
And its not like you can run the product to the local university for analysis.
Very true, no one can use test and tell you exactly how many mgs are in there just on feel. A lab test is the only way and that's not really a viable option for the vast majority. BUT, it is possible to tell if something is underdosed. If you are just not getting the results you should be then there is a good chance your gear is underdosed. Now the results someone should be getting and what they think they should be getting is a whole different can of worms that is based on a ton of variables.
With me, although I have limited experience with steroids, I do not show a strong placebo effect with any supplement or drug of any kind. I am skeptical until I see results. Of all the supplements I've tried I've only come across a handful that impressed me or did what they said they would even though other guys in the gym would rave about certain things. I think they wanted to believe that they didn't just waste their money and that they really were gaining 11383.92538924932043% more muscle because of the 400 bucks they just shelled out.
I would wager that anyone like that would have an even stronger placebo effect from steroids as they would expect more from them. I wish I could gain just by believing that the cooking oil I just shot was going to slap 10lbs of beef on me lol.
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i dont really think its smart to discuss methodologies of selling illegal items but i will say that sellign poor quality products is short sighted and will not lead to the most amount of $ in the long run. i know several people who are in the business of selling illegal goods and they pride themselves in always having the best quality products.
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i dont really think its smart to discuss methodologies of selling illegal items but i will say that sellign poor quality products is short sighted and will not lead to the most amount of $ in the long run. i know several people who are in the business of selling illegal goods and they pride themselves in always having the best quality products.
That may very well be true of local drug dealers, it's quite the different story when selling a product from overseas where there is very little ramifications of selling a bunk product to someone. The way Captain EQ stated is pretty much how the big UGL's have ran their businesses for quite some time. I do however notice that the domestic UGL's seem to go the route Tbombz said, higher quality products most of the time.
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i dont really think its smart to discuss methodologies of selling illegal items but i will say that sellign poor quality products is short sighted and will not lead to the most amount of $ in the long run. i know several people who are in the business of selling illegal goods and they pride themselves in always having the best quality products.
Do they pride them selves or is that the bullshit line they give you to get you to buy their stuff? Any dealer worth a shit will tell you their stuff is the absolute best there is and nothing compares. Thats their line to get you to buy their product. The same holds true with supplement companies.
I realize I'm being cynical here, but you have to think in terms of reality. These guys don't give a shit if you gain muscle. They are selling illegal drugs to MAKE MONEY. Its that simple.
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That may very well be true of local drug dealers, it's quite the different story when selling a product from overseas where there is very little ramifications of selling a bunk product to someone. The way Captain EQ stated is pretty much how the big UGL's have ran their businesses for quite some time. I do however notice that the domestic UGL's seem to go the route Tbombz said, higher quality products most of the time.
Local dealers are like that because they REQUIRE a steady stream of customers to keep them making money.
The top dogs are the ones who pinch because they always can find other customers or just change names ;). Axio/BD/IP
All big dealers cut somewhere at some time.
There are a few UGL around that provide top notch gear, but good luck finding them. Now that we have limited access to testing gear, things are going to get much worse.
There was a local guy making his own stuff about 8 years ago around here. he was a very intelligent man and made gear dosed very accurately, we even tested it several times over a few years, always spot on. well his powder man got greedy and started pinching, the brewer had no idea until a few unhappy customers gave him some lab results. he made things right but lost his ass and lost the powder man...things work strangely in this game. he now works nights packaging equipment in a stockyard making about 12 an hour, used to be rolling in cash, he used to leave his Vette parked out in front of the gym with the top down, keys in the ignition and the radio playing. He just didn't care because he had so much money, plus everyone at the gym knew him and nobody would mess with him for that reason.
We can talk about anything on here within the MODS stated limits, they already know 10 times more than we ever could, we would be niave to think any less. people have been selling drugs for so long, the only thing they need to look for is new edges in network tracking technology/shipping to keep up or stay ahead of the sources. Each of us means nothing to them and the things we say on here they have known for years.
Shit, we had guys posting pics of suitcases full of amps a few years ago for no apparent reason...they are still around too.
8)
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Shit, we had guys posting pics of suitcases full of amps a few years ago for no apparent reason...they are still around too.
8)
What? I want to see that, lol.
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What? I want to see that, lol.
This was about 3 years ago, maybe less.
Guys would just start posts with pics of suitcases full of gear...nothing else to say except "do you like?"
Then we had a few guys posting pics of their stash and others would post for comparison. those were the days!
Things have changed...lol
8)
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This was about 3 years ago, maybe less.
Guys would just start posts with pics of suitcases full of gear...nothing else to say except "do you like?"
Then we had a few guys posting pics of their stash and others would post for comparison. those were the days!
Things have changed...lol
8)
I remember those pictures. There was one with more EQ and Winstrol in it than what is in the pharmacy of one of the largest equine practices in this country.
That was back when I didn't post much, just lurked and read.
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Do they pride them selves or is that the bullshit line they give you to get you to buy their stuff?
witht hings like weed ecstacy coke and mushrooms, its very easy to tell if its the truth or just some bullshit. i dont mess with that stuff anymore, weed and mushrooms on occasion, but show me a sack of any one of those (except ecstacy) and ill be able to tell you its quality.
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I remember those pictures. There was one with more EQ and Winstrol in it than what is in the pharmacy of one of the largest equine practices in this country.
That was back when I didn't post much, just lurked and read.
OMG!!! I remember those good old days... some guys would post pictures of a warehouse palette with the plastic wrap still around the boxes, about 6 feet high :)
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I meet with my "coach" to game plan for my show that I have coming up in may. We planned out my 12 week bulker and 12 week cutter. My bulker is based on 1,000 mgs. of test/week, 400 mg. Equipoise/week, 50 mg. d-bol ED 1st 5 weeks, 20 mg. Nolva ED. pretty standard bulker, I've never ran over 500 mg. a week ever so I'm expecting some pretty dramatic results from this. He also wants me to slam some insulin right after I workout. I know that insulin is extremely dangerous and will literally kill you if dosed wrong. How good are the results from it? Are they worth the risk? I don't think I'm willing to do it but I figured I'd ask....
Yes it can be dangerous, but you have to be a total retard to run into trouble. I have been using it for 3 weeks now, and it's great. I see a large increase in muscle mass, the muscles really start to fill out and you have incredible pumps during workouts.
Just start with 4IU and increase the dosage with 1IU (upto a max of 10IU) Always have some simple carbs with you in case you feel a hypo coming up.
Take 15grams of carbs for each IU right after the injection. Decrease it to 10g if you feel you can take it. Only use short acting insulin to prevent fat gains. Take simple carbs right after the injection, 45m/1h later take slow carbs with protein and another meal 2h after the injection. Monitor bloodsugar when you start using it for the first time.
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Yes it can be dangerous, but you have to be a total retard to run into trouble. I have been using it for 3 weeks now, and it's great. I see a large increase in muscle mass, the muscles really start to fill out and you have incredible pumps during workouts.
Just start with 4IU and increase the dosage with 1IU (upto a max of 10IU) Always have some simple carbs with you in case you feel a hypo coming up.
Take 15grams of carbs for each IU right after the injection. Decrease it to 10g if you feel you can take it. Only use short acting insulin to prevent fat gains. Take simple carbs right after the injection, 45m/1h later take slow carbs with protein and another meal 2h after the injection. Monitor bloodsugar when you start using it for the first time.
10iu makes no sense and is rediculous ...the body releases more than the equivelant of 10iu insulin on its own..
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10iu makes no sense and is rediculous ...the body releases more than the equivelant of 10iu insulin on its own..
Maybe you should try 40iu's post workout, since you're such an expert... let us know how you do :)
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Maybe you should try 40iu's post workout, since you're such an expert... let us know how you do :)
is that supposed to be one of those " kill yourself" jokes ? because if it is it is retarded..lol.. 40iu could be used quite safely as long as sufficient carbohydrate intake was consumed...
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10iu makes no sense and is rediculous ...the body releases more than the equivelant of 10iu insulin on its own..
I suspect the body can easily release more than the equivalent of 20IUs too, if taking a big carb/protein shake.
I think the Russian text I posted earlier in this thread said the athletes supplemented with 1IU (one) per 150lbs of BW a couple of times a week. Ben Johnson's trainer mentioned similar protocols. The BALCO athletes did 3IU after workouts. So they feel it must do something even at such low dosage.
Palmbo may not be completely honest, don't know, but he has written that he recommends only 2IU once a day "if you need it".
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This was about 3 years ago, maybe less.
Guys would just start posts with pics of suitcases full of gear...nothing else to say except "do you like?"
Then we had a few guys posting pics of their stash and others would post for comparison. those were the days!
Things have changed...lol
8)
Yeah I remember those pics. I remember one guy from this board (wont mention any names) posted a pic of boxes just overflowing with packed 10ml bottles of gear. Those were cool times to experience. SSB used to have threads where people used to just post pics of their stash, and the amounts of gear guys had was just incredible. Some of it was really good gear for very cheap. $25.00 for 20ml TE and prices like that.
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I suspect the body can easily release more than the equivalent of 20IUs too, if taking a big carb/protein shake.
I think the Russian text I posted earlier in this thread said the athletes supplemented with 1IU (one) per 150lbs of BW a couple of times a week. Ben Johnson's trainer mentioned similar protocols. The BALCO athletes did 3IU after workouts. So they feel it must do something even at such low dosage.
Palmbo may not be completely honest, don't know, but he has written that he recommends only 2IU once a day "if you need it".
what would you speculate the reason behind such a low doseage beiing effective would be ? in your opinion at what level would insulin become supraphysiological ?
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Maybe you should try 40iu's post workout, since you're such an expert... let us know how you do :)
Haha, with 20 IU you need like 200grams of sugar. This will make you very fat is no time.
Even on 10IU i can get low with bloodsugar (2.4mmol yesterday at the 2h mark with humalog) I rather use it safely. 10IU is great for recovery and some mass gains.
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Haha, with 20 IU you need like 200grams of sugar. This will make you very fat is no time.
Even on 10IU i can get low with bloodsugar (2.4mmol yesterday at the 2h mark with humalog) I rather use it safely. 10IU is great for recovery and some mass gains.
my post earlier showed a candy bar produces the same amount of insulin as a 10iu shot ::)
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Haha, with 20 IU you need like 200grams of sugar. This will make you very fat is no time.
Even on 10IU i can get low with bloodsugar (2.4mmol yesterday at the 2h mark with humalog) I rather use it safely. 10IU is great for recovery and some mass gains.
I take 20 IU preworkout and consume about 400 grams of carbs within that two hour period and don't get fat. In fact, I stay very lean this way. It's the only time I really eat carbs.
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carbs intake isnt what will make you fat with insulin, its fat intake that will do it.
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Yeah I remember those pics. I remember one guy from this board (wont mention any names) posted a pic of boxes just overflowing with packed 10ml bottles of gear. Those were cool times to experience. SSB used to have threads where people used to just post pics of their stash, and the amounts of gear guys had was just incredible. Some of it was really good gear for very cheap. $25.00 for 20ml TE and prices like that.
SSB was a disaster waiting to happen.
At the time, I warned people left and right that open source boards were a bad idea.
They laughed, but look who's laughing now (LE). ::)
DIV
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carbs intake isnt what will make you fat with insulin, its fat intake that will do it.
Exactly
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what would you speculate the reason behind such a low doseage beiing effective would be ? in your opinion at what level would insulin become supraphysiological ?
I don't know is my answer to both questions. :-\ I could search for the second question but I'm too damn lazy right now. You would have to look at peak plasma levels and total insulin released (area under curve etc) and then check how something like Humalog compares to endo insulin (since it's like an analog). Still, I'm pretty sure a normal person can release the equivalent of that as a response to a heavy glucose load. I mean, some get away with 5 grams of carbs per IU insulin (i.e 100 grams for 20IU injected) so it's not that huge of a dosage.
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I take 20 IU preworkout and consume about 400 grams of carbs within that two hour period and don't get fat. In fact, I stay very lean this way. It's the only time I really eat carbs.
Sounds insane :D
I guess you are a very experienced user. I take it very.. very slow. I take a good amount of carbs after my shot, and i still feel a hypo coming up at the 2h peak of humalog.
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Sounds insane :D
I guess you are a very experienced user. I take it very.. very slow. I take a good amount of carbs after my shot, and i still feel a hypo coming up at the 2h peak of humalog.
I feel going hypo is a timing issue a lot of times, rather than total carb issue. For example, if sipping a few grams of glucose solution every 10 minutes or eating a glucose tab (after eating a larger amount in conjunction with the shot of course) I never go hypo even if I've gone hypo eating more carbs total previously. This is IME and not a recommendation in any way. Kids stay away from it.
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Sounds insane :D
I guess you are a very experienced user. I take it very.. very slow. I take a good amount of carbs after my shot, and i still feel a hypo coming up at the 2h peak of humalog.
abc123 can be a bit exhuberant at times....
Sometimes he needs to err on the side of caution. ::)
DIV
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I feel going hypo is a timing issue a lot of times, rather than total carb issue. For example, if sipping a few grams of glucose solution every 10 minutes or eating a glucose tab (after eating a larger amount in conjunction with the shot of course) I never go hypo even if I've gone hypo eating more carbs total previously. This is IME and not a recommendation in any way. Kids stay away from it.
yes exactly ! insulin is prsent and acting every minute from onset through the peak all the way untill it clears the system. having one or two or three drinks (one or two or three shakes) makes no sense, since insulin isnt active at only 1,2, or 3 times ! it makes much much more sense to slowly sip on the carb intake all the way through the active life of the insulin, rather than to take the entire carb intake in just 1 2 or 3 drinks.
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yes exactly ! insulin is prsent and acting every minute from onset through the peak all the way untill it clears the system. having one or two or three drinks (one or two or three shakes) makes no sense, since insulin isnt active at only 1,2, or 3 times ! it makes much much more sense to slowly sip on the carb intake all the way through the active life of the insulin, rather than to take the entire carb intake in just 1 2 or 3 drinks.
That's basically the way I do it.
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I feel going hypo is a timing issue a lot of times, rather than total carb issue.
Agreed, with Humalog you have about a 3-5 hour window you should make sure you're keeping an eye on your blood sugar levels.