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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: QuakerOats on November 12, 2008, 08:21:33 AM
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1) make starting pay 10 dollars an hour, most of the people working in these factories barely graduated high school
2) get rid of the health benefits
3) get rid of the pension plans, makes no sense to pay people who aren't working or creating anything for the company
4) start building more efficient, reliable cars that get better gas mileage, there's a reason why Toyota is killing the American car companies
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...if it were only that easy.
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We can't bail out a failed system. Force them to change...and force unions to change (see thread in political section). Write your senators and reps.
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...if it were only that easy.
it is that easy they just have to implement it, there are plenty of people who will gladly take those jobs, people in this country act like they're entitled to all these things when they haven't done a damn thing to deserve them.
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it is that easy they just have to implement it, there are plenty of people who will gladly take those jobs, people in this country act like they're entitled to all these things when they haven't done a damn thing to deserve them.
Not really. They've signed agreements with the unions, the court cost alone will probably bankrupt them.
I agree with most of what you say about it though. They pay the unskilled workers way too much. It's sad when an unskilled labor is making twice what a teacher makes. Don't even get me started on the job banks.
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Not really. They've signed agreements with the unions, the court cost alone will probably bankrupt them.
I agree with most of what you say about it though. They pay the unskilled workers way too much. It's sad when an unskilled labor is making twice what a teacher makes. Don't even get me started on the job banks.
fucck the unions, give the government the authority to arrest them and threaten them will stiff jail sentences if they don't get the fucck out of the business.
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fucck the unions, give the government the authority to arrest them and threaten them will stiff jail sentences if they don't get the fucck out of the business.
truest words you ever said.
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fucck the unions, give the government the authority to arrest them and threaten them will stiff jail sentences if they don't get the fucck out of the business.
Never said I was a fan of unions. I think they can serve a purpose but they can go way too far.
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truest words you ever said.
if these auto companies fail it will mean almost a complete collapse of this countries economy, people think it's bad now wait and see if that happens.
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if these auto companies fail it will mean almost a complete collapse of this countries economy, people think it's bad now wait and see if that happens.
Look what happens in germany...
Industry are afraid to survive the next year, and unions command 8% raise in pays or they will strike.
China is laughing its ass of when they see this.
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it should be left up to the individual TO FIND THEIR OWN HEALTH BENEFITS AND SAVE FOR THEIR OWN RETIREMENTS.
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it should be left up to the individual TO FIND THEIR OWN HEALTH BENEFITS AND SAVE FOR THEIR OWN RETIREMENTS.
Blue - No way in hell.
Red - Damn straight.
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Blue - No way in hell.
Red - Damn straight.
that attitude is the exact reason why these companies are having these problems, they have to offer these unskilled people the world just to put in a candy ass 8 hour shift in their factory, i say fucck it, hire mexicans for 9 bucks an hour if that's what it takes, SOMEONE will do the job.
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if these auto companies fail it will mean almost a complete collapse of this countries economy, people think it's bad now wait and see if that happens.
Yeah, I heard on the news 1 in 10 jobs correlates with the auto industry. I was unaware it was that large, that is very impacting.
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that attitude is the exact reason why these companies are having these problems, they have to offer these unskilled people the world just to put in a candy ass 8 hour shift in their factory, i say fucck it, hire mexicans for 9 bucks an hour if that's what it takes, SOMEONE will do the job.
How is that the attitude that causes the problems? I agree on the retirement part, most don't save enough anyway.
I understand what you're saying but I dislike the idea of people trying to find their own insurance. You're basically opening up the door for them to be denied because of a preexisting condition. Then what? People go bankrupt trying to get seen by a doctor? (already happens anyway). Now if you higher Mexicans to do these jobs who'll by the 40K cars?
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it should be left up to the individual TO FIND THEIR OWN HEALTH BENEFITS AND SAVE FOR THEIR OWN RETIREMENTS.
You do realize that they pay into their own pensions correct?
Jason
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How is that the attitude that causes the problems? I agree on the retirement part, most don't save enough anyway.
I understand what you're saying but I dislike the idea of people trying to find their own insurance. You're basically opening up the door for them to be denied because of a preexisting condition. Then what? People go bankrupt trying to get seen by a doctor? (already happens anyway). Now if you higher Mexicans to do these jobs who'll by the 40K cars?
they need to stop making 40K cars completely, everyone should be driving cars that get at least 25 miles to the gallon.
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they need to stop making 40K cars completely, everyone should be driving cars that get at least 25 miles to the gallon.
True. Everything is so inflated it's not even funny.
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Fuck you the government should fear its people.... the people shouldnt fear the government
(http://www.teamsters671.com/images/logo.gif)
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Fuck you the government should fear its people.... the people shouldnt fear the government
Settle down.
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lol ha ha ha :D
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Exactly, I know guys working on the line at the auto plant that are making $80-90,000 per year. No additional skill or college education. Then there are times when there is less work and they are laid off for months at 80-90% pay!
I'm certain many new immigrants coming to this country would leap at that opportunity for half that salary.
Union and union benefits are killing the auto industry in this country. But so are the kind of cars we make and substandard fuel emissions. If an auto company closes, be sure there will be another in its place that will hire workers and be more efficient.
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Exactly, I know guys working on the line at the auto plant that are making $80-90,000 per year. No additional skill or college education. Then there are times when there is less work and they are laid off for months at 80-90% pay!
I'm certain many new immigrants coming to this country would leap at that opportunity for half that salary.
Union and union benefits are killing the auto industry in this country. But so are the kind of cars we make and substandard fuel emissions. If an auto company closes, be sure there will be another in its place that will hire workers and be more efficient.
Youre lying.
Jason
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Youre lying.
Jason
No. Most of the Big Three have a job bank that pays people to be voluntarily laid off.
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American Cars "besides Cadillacs" are shit..... name one automobile that is produce here that you can say its the best in the world in its class ???
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hire better engineers to design these cars
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Unions killed the domestic car companies. There was a Ford transmission plant where I grew up. There were guys there making $80,000 a year, working 7.5 hour shifts with 4 weeks paid vacation a year. Tough to make a profit doing business like that.
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No. Most of the Big Three have a job bank that pays people to be voluntarily laid off.
My Dad has worked in the auto industry for over 25 years. My grandpa did 35. Ive never heard of this, and it hasn't happened when either of them had beenlaid off in the past.
Jason
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1) make starting pay 10 dollars an hour, most of the people working in these factories barely graduated high school
2) get rid of the health benefits
3) get rid of the pension plans, makes no sense to pay people who aren't working or creating anything for the company4) start building more efficient, reliable cars that get better gas mileage, there's a reason why Toyota is killing the American car companies
strikes here we come :D
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Fuck you the government should fear its people.... the people shouldnt fear the government
(http://www.teamsters671.com/images/logo.gif)
I agree 100%. But in retro, the dems are loving this crap. They want to be depended on.
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go extreme and rid the United States of foreign car companies and force Americans to buy domestic ......... or sell American tax free and tax foreign cars
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go extreme and rid the United States of foreign car companies and force Americans to buy domestic ......... or sell American tax free and tax foreign cars
The US car Industry still wouldn't make a profit in this economy if there were zero imports..
I remember hearing about the problems facing GM/ford about 10 years ago...Still nothing has been done to address any of this bullshit
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Number one reason for all this crap is the damn salaries! Fucking people barely get out of highschool and are handed a salary 5x more what they are worth.. they decided to start a lifestyle based on this inflated and very UN-RELIABLE income, get in way over their heads thinking they are actually successful.. then the plant closes and..
THEY GET A REALITY CHECK!
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Unions killed the domestic car companies. There was a Ford transmission plant where I grew up. There were guys there making $80,000 a year, working 7.5 hour shifts with 4 weeks paid vacation a year. Tough to make a profit doing business like that.
Can't just blame them. They did a good job wrecking themselves too.
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ha ha maybe all this is bullshit and they have been using the "were falling card" for the last 100 years to keep the government helping them with bailouts, to make the public feels sorry for them and purchase American , to keep the investors return to a minimum.... I just fail to comprehend how the #1 and #3 best selling car companies in the world for the last 75 years are "breaking" ::)
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You do realize that they pay into their own pensions correct?
Jason
But GM used that $ to fund their own inefficient operations.
$600 billion in retirement debt, and they're going to be out of money completely in February.
Imagine how pissed some people are going to be when they realize their retirement is wiped out, but CEOs are still getting their bonuses...
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ha ha maybe all this is bullshit and they have been using the "were falling card" for the last 100 years to keep the government helping them with bailouts, to make the public feels sorry for them and purchase American , to keep the investors return to a minimum.... I just fail to comprehend how the #1 and #3 best selling car companies in the world for the last 75 years are "breaking" ::)
They've ruined themselves. In the 1970/80's they didn't try to compete with the imports to make more fuel efficent cars. They try to guilt everyone into buying an "American" car (made in America but 90% of the parts come from somewhere else or made somewhere else with American parts ::) ) but they put out mostly shit. On top of mismanagement they've given the Unions way too much. Add it all up & you've got problems.
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But GM used that $ to fund their own inefficient operations.
$600 billion in retirement debt, and they're going to be out of money completely in February.
Imagine how pissed some people are going to be when they realize their retirement is wiped out, but CEOs are still getting their bonuses...
True. They want another 25 Billion to pretty much fix their pension & health care accounts. However, the CEO should continue to make millions even though the companies failing. ::)
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They've ruined themselves. In the 1970/80's they didn't try to compete with the imports to make more fuel efficent cars. They try to guilt everyone into buying an "American" car (made in America but 90% of the parts come from somewhere else or made somewhere else with American parts ::) ) but they put out mostly shit. On top of mismanagement they've given the Unions way too much. Add it all up & you've got problems.
On paper NAFTA was supposed to help out with the prices since they were being created at a cheaper cost without charging taxes but the price remained the same... we were paying the same cost for the same car and yet we lost lots of jobs >:(
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On paper NAFTA was supposed to help out with the prices since they were being created at a cheaper cost without charging taxes but the price remained the same... we were paying the same cost for the same car and yet we lost lots of jobs >:(
Agreed.
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The problem is they charge to dam much for cars period.Cars have gotten so expensive people now have to "rent' them" (lease)" because they cant afford to buy them.Plus I was looking to buy a new Dodge Charger, with the 426 Hemi.I walked into the dealership the one I wanted was like $38,000, but they marked the car up $15000 over invoice because its the Hemi version.I was like WTF. Our economy, is in a down fall, and there selling a "Dodge" car for $15000 over the retail price.They wonder why they arent selling any cars????? Who is going to pay, over $50,000 for a friggin Dodge, that wont be worth $20,000 a year from now.They should make the car for about $28,000, -$30,000, and just sell a ton of them.Just imagine if every other industry did this, they would be out of buissness.
The auto industry is a bunch of crooks, with there mark-ups, and hidden fee's.They got a gas guzzler charge, dock fee, dealer prep fee,scotch guard fee.Imagine going into a sports nutrition store, and they have a shipping fee, a stocking fee, and a pricing fee???? What would happen, people wouldnt buy supplements.What ever happened to just a fair price without a friggin boat load of hidden fees???????????.This just my thoughts.
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I know a guy who just paid 37k for a dodge magnum with some souped up engine, rim package, etc...
he's living on credit cards and not working at the moment, but "needed something to get around in".
I got my truck for about 2k at a steal from auction, and its run fine for years. Seeing someone spend damn near a years' salary on a car when they have no job...
WTF is wrong with people?
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I know a guy who just paid 37k for a dodge magnum with some souped up engine, rim package, etc...
he's living on credit cards and not working at the moment, but "needed something to get around in".
I got my truck for about 2k at a steal from auction, and its run fine for years. Seeing someone spend damn near a years' salary on a car when they have no job...
WTF is wrong with people?
What a jack ass.
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why is it the workers fault they can demand and get that sort of pay?
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true that... i was talking to a friend in class who doesnt work and drives a new dodge ram.. I asked him how he got it... he responded student loans ::) and yet here I am driving a shitty Camry plus working 40 hours to pay for it :-X
I hope he knows he cant file bankruptcy on student loans...
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why is it the workers fault they can demand and get that sort of pay?
I personally think that they should be compinsated fairly for their work. However, as I've said over & over unskilled labor should not be making twice as much as a teacher.
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if you lower their pay... they wont work and just go get unemployment until it runs out and then apply for food stamps and welfare :-\
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1) make starting pay 10 dollars an hour, most of the people working in these factories barely graduated high school
2) get rid of the health benefits
3) get rid of the pension plans, makes no sense to pay people who aren't working or creating anything for the company
4) start building more efficient, reliable cars that get better gas mileage, there's a reason why Toyota is killing the American car companies
Vote for the "Squadfather-Joe The Plumber" ticket in 2012!!!
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agreed with all the people saying they earn way too much money. blame the unions for being greedy and demanding too much when the people arent worth it. will be funny to see all these people who got greedy lose their retirement plans
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Me=American and drive Japanese ;)
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I only drive Euro cars and jap trucks.
Been burned by poor quality too many times with american autos, and the companies won't back anything up.
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Jason, I know the individual it happened to. He works for Chrysler and is a good friend. He was laid off for 3-4 months and received near full pay because of union benefits. He told me but I can't remember, either 80 or 90% of full pay.
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Jason, I know the individual it happened to. He works for Chrystler and is a good friend. He was laid off for 3-4 months and received near full pay because of union benefits. He told me but I can't remember, either 80 or 90% of full pay.
Yes, and always note what is really going on when GM or Ford 'lays off' 5 thousand workers. Read the fine print, and see that those workers are getting paid to do nothing.
the US auto manufacturers are so scared to front the government-backed union shills on anything, the only way they are willing to save any money is to cease production, and related (non-union) costs.
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So, it seems nearly everyone is familiar with the union abuses these days, why is nothing done?
Perhaps forcing them into bankrupcy will allow a restructuring?
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Dave is fucking spot on here! Why should these idiots with GEDs be paid fucking $25/hour to install fucking car parts? They're not professionals and they are demanding more than what the market can bear to pay them.
In contrast, people whine about CEOs more so than these union workers. Do the math, think reasonably, and you'll see that the average CEO probably deserves to paid whatever they're getting, while the average GM and Ford line worker does not.
Having to pay these workers ridiculous sums is largely why GM and Ford can't compete with Nissan, Toyota and Honda.
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Dave is fucking spot on here! Why should these idiots with GEDs be paid fucking $25/hour to install fucking car parts? They're not professionals and they are demanding more than what the market can bear to pay them.
In contrast, people whine about CEOs more so than these union workers. Do the math, think reasonably, and you'll see that the average CEO probably deserves to paid whatever they're getting, while the average GM and Ford line worker does not.
Having to pay these workers ridiculous sums is largely why GM and Ford can't compete with Nissan, Toyota and Honda.
I would say that a company that has burned through nearly 8 billion in cash and qosted 3Q losses f 2 billion dont need tobe rewarding CEOs. These losses happen at the corporate level. Just my .02
Jason
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The multi-trillion (yes trillion w/ a T) dollar civil service work force destroyed America. Comedy.
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Number one reason for all this crap is the damn salaries! Fucking people barely get out of highschool and are handed a salary 5x more what they are worth.. they decided to start a lifestyle based on this inflated and very UN-RELIABLE income, get in way over their heads thinking they are actually successful.. then the plant closes and..
THEY GET A REALITY CHECK!
GM did 180 BILLION in revenue in 2007. So, it's not as though they aren't selling any cars. The problem can only be that expenses are too high.
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Well, there needs to be restructuring on multiple levels then. The point is that the US auto industry needs to be re-tooled in order to compete. When our line workers make $80,000 per yr and China's workers make a couple hundred per week with less vacation, no forced paid layoffs and other additional costs, we can't compete. Yes, I am all for limiting CEO benefits and salaries, but that must be done by the board of directors. I say link a portion of CEO compensation to company profits...so if the company is failing, the CEO doesn't get paid as much.
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Volkswagen is currently building a plant in Chattanooga, Tennessee and Mercedes is building another in Alabama.
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I personally think that they should be compinsated fairly for their work. However, as I've said over & over unskilled labor should not be making twice as much as a teacher.
seriously now that's not how the world works. you get what you can get. If you ask for 90k and get it good for you. I know at my job I'm not saying "well the work I do really is worth this much. I'll ask for a pay cut".
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seriously now that's not how the world works. you get what you can get. If you ask for 90k and get it good for you. I know at my job I'm not saying "well the work I do really is worth this much. I'll ask for a pay cut".
That's because your company is obligated to pay minimum wage.
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American Cars "besides Cadillacs" are shit..... name one automobile that is produce here that you can say its the best in the world in its class ???
exactly.
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Volkswagen is currently building a plant in Chattanooga, Tennessee and Mercedes is building another in Alabama.
yes but where does the money go to? the profits go back to germany.
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Fuck buying American lol
You are a fool if you buy something based on patriotism. Hell, none of that matters now.
Look at some of the Japanese cars like Lexus, Infiniti, wayyyy better than Cadillac. Lexus is probably the most reliable and best bang for your buck luxury car brand out there, probably more so than BMW and Mercedes.
Plus Jap car makers make good trucks too. Nissan Titan and Toyota Tundra are damn good and reliable trucks.
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Fuck buying American lol
You are a fool if you buy something based on patriotism. Hell, none of that matters now.
Look at some of the Japanese cars like Lexus, Infiniti, wayyyy better than Cadillac. Lexus is probably the most reliable and best bang for your buck luxury car brand out there, probably more so than BMW and Mercedes.
Plus Jap car makers make good trucks too. Nissan Titan and Toyota Tundra are damn good and reliable trucks.
exactly.
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I have to agre with you.Why spend $50,000 on an American car when you could buy a BWM, or a Mercedes for the same money, with better engineering?
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I have to agre with you.Why spend $50,000 on an American car when you could buy a BWM, or a Mercedes for the same money, with better engineering?
why even spend 50K in the first place, cars are THE DUMBEST thing to spend big money on, the damn thing decreases in value by 3K the second you drive it off the lot.
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I dont own a car and love it, most cars are ugly pieces of shit, and if I have to see one more little shit silver logo on the back of a car I am gonna puck, ...IF i owned a car the first thing I would do is take off all the stupid silver medallion crap that they put all over the car, the logo, the manufacturer, all that shit...if I own it then I want all those names off it!.
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I dont own a car and love it, most cars are ugly pieces of shit, and if I have to see one more little shit silver logo on the back of a car I am gonna puck, ...IF i owned a car the first thing I would do is take off all the stupid silver medallion crap that they put all over the car, the logo, the manufacturer, all that shit...if I own it then I want all those names off it!.
cars are a fuccking money pit, gas, insurance, repairs, tickets, oil changes, etc., you're better off taking public transportation.
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True, lol at these guys who buy a NEW car every 5 years, the thing literally decreases 50% in value. Epic self ownage.
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True, lol at these guys who buy a NEW car every 5 years, the thing literally decreases 50% in value. Epic self ownage.
fuccking morons caught up in the "bling bling" lifestyle. ::)
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Unions killed the domestic car companies. There was a Ford transmission plant where I grew up. There were guys there making $80,000 a year, working 7.5 hour shifts with 4 weeks paid vacation a year. Tough to make a profit doing business like that.
the whole idea of a union is to force non-profitable corps to become more competitive or if that is not possible, help the laborers with funding while the old business is closing and they are getting a new job.
With wealthy and wellorganised unions, there is no need to fight layoffs.
The unions will also drive up the wages, making low tech industries obsolete and making the nation more targeted on high tech industry.
In a free market, unions and the employer organisations, not the government, should negotiate the wages and employment terms.
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During the Industrial Revolution, the English Parliament banned guilds(unions) to encourage more open competition. America is facing the crisis should do the very same.
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While some Unions have refused to change and hindered progress in recent times, dont forget that child labor laws, weekends, paid vacations, health insurance, equal pay for woman and minorities, workers safety, pay grade scales, pension funds, 401k, social security and paid maternity all exist because Unions fought and won them.
There is nothing wrong with making money but it shouldn't be the sole motivation for living. Taking care of people, people in your community and country is also part of being a decent human being on this planet.
Take a look back at life in America before Unions came in and you'll see it wasn't a great place to be if you weren't wealthy. Unchecked greed and unregulated capitalism is what led us into the great depression. Unions and oversight are what won us WW2 and made us the greatest country in the world afterwords.
My belief is that if you are a smart business owner there won't be a need for unions because you'll take care of your people on your own.
Are some Unions corrupt = yes
Should Union laws be reevaluated = yes
But don't forget that businesses are granted an incorporation status because 'We the People' allow them to business on American soil. Thats the law and it gives the people the right to decide how we let those companies do business.
There's a 'give an take' but trust me, overall...you dont want to live in a world without Union protection.
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While some Unions have refused to change and hindered progress in recent times, dont forget that child labor laws, weekends, paid vacations, health insurance, equal pay for woman and minorities, workers safety, pay grade scales, pension funds, 401k, social security and paid maternity all exist because Unions fought and won them.
There is nothing wrong with making money but it shouldn't be the sole motivation for living. Taking care of people, people in your community and country is also part of being a decent human being on this planet.
Take a look back at life in America before Unions came in and you'll see it wasn't a great place to be if you weren't wealthy. Unchecked greed and unregulated capitalism is what led us into the great depression. Unions and oversight are what won us WW2 and made us the greatest country in the world afterwords.
My belief is that if you are a smart business owner there won't be a need for unions because you'll take care of your people on your own.
Are some Unions corrupt = yes
Should Union laws be reevaluated = yes
But don't forget that businesses are granted an incorporation status because 'We the People' allow them to business on American soil. Thats the law and it gives the people the right to decide how we let those companies do business.
There's a 'give an take' but trust me, overall...you dont want to live in a world without Union protection.
Well stated.
How quickly people forget the hardfought gains of our union progenitors.
Do we forget so quickly who was cleaning up? Unions have been declining and executive comp has exploded exponentially.
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Whatever happened to letting shitty companies just fail? Why should tax payers bail out companies who make a suckass product or run their business to the ground?
So a shitty company goes out of business... SO WHAT? A better more efficent one will take its place.
This bailout mentality is going to ruin us....
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While some Unions have refused to change and hindered progress in recent times, dont forget that child labor laws, weekends, paid vacations, health insurance, equal pay for woman and minorities, workers safety, pay grade scales, pension funds, 401k, social security and paid maternity all exist because Unions fought and won them.
There is nothing wrong with making money but it shouldn't be the sole motivation for living. Taking care of people, people in your community and country is also part of being a decent human being on this planet.
Take a look back at life in America before Unions came in and you'll see it wasn't a great place to be if you weren't wealthy. Unchecked greed and unregulated capitalism is what led us into the great depression. Unions and oversight are what won us WW2 and made us the greatest country in the world afterwords.
My belief is that if you are a smart business owner there won't be a need for unions because you'll take care of your people on your own.
Are some Unions corrupt = yes
Should Union laws be reevaluated = yes
But don't forget that businesses are granted an incorporation status because 'We the People' allow them to business on American soil. Thats the law and it gives the people the right to decide how we let those companies do business.
There's a 'give an take' but trust me, overall...you dont want to live in a world without Union protection.
100% HORSESHIT!!!
Don't ever let a union shill tell you that the unions are responsible for all the worker protection laws in the US. Union efforts are meant to protect nobody but the unions.
Unions are responsible for the 401K. HAHAHAHAHA. Get the fuuck outta here with that BS.
The only thing unions do is provide job security for the under and unskilled, and drive up prices and lessen quality for the 99% of society who aren't in that particular labor group.
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100% HORSESHIT!!!
Don't ever let a union shill tell you that the unions are responsible for all the worker protection laws in the US. Union efforts are meant to protect nobody but the unions.
Unions are responsible for the 401K. HAHAHAHAHA. Get the fuuck outta here with that BS.
The only thing unions do is provide job security for the under and unskilled, and drive up prices and lessen quality for the 99% of society who aren't in that particular labor group.
Not true my friend.
"Supporters of Unions, such as the ACTU or Australian Labor Party, often credit trade unions with leading the labor movement in the early 20th century, which generally sought to end child labor practices, improve worker safety, increase wages for both union workers, raise the entire society's standard of living, reduce the hours in a work week, provide public education for children, and bring of other benefits to working class families. [6]"
Quoted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unions
There is no perfect system (except anarchism) but the right to organize the people is the ONLY thing keeping the tyranny at bay. Popular movements and demonstrations are the only check against authoritarianism. History proves my point.
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Unions were fine back in the late 1800s and early 20th century.
Today, unions are just money making schemes... They take a portion of an employees salary and give them nothing... They are a business, nothing more.
In today's global economy, a large corporation leaves the US because of the unions... Unions are worthless now... The labor laws protect the people, not the unions.
Unions are crap...
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Not true my friend.
"Supporters of Unions, such as the ACTU or Australian Labor Party, often credit trade unions with leading the labor movement in the early 20th century, which generally sought to end child labor practices, improve worker safety, increase wages for both union workers, raise the entire society's standard of living, reduce the hours in a work week, provide public education for children, and bring of other benefits to working class families. [6]"
Quoted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unions
There is no perfect system (except anarchism) but the right to organize the people is the ONLY thing keeping the tyranny at bay. Popular movements and demonstrations are the only check against authoritarianism. History proves my point.
Wow. You quoted the unions in support of the unions.
So when some highschool dropout is making more than a college professor to screw lug nuts onto a car, and he feels like $60 an hour isn't good enough, he is justified in going on strike to get another 8% per year eh?
Hahaha Unions raise the standard of living for everyone... what a bunch of bullshit.
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Not sure if it is already in the thread but I heard something this morning that if the government stepped in, in any way, that they could restructure the union deals.
The unions, government safety restrictions, and poorly made vehicles will continue to haunt the US auto industry.
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If GM couldn't save money during a time they were recording their biggest sales then they are doomed to fail.
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If GM couldn't save money during a time they were recording their biggest sales then they are doomed to fail.
Xs 2
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Not sure if it is already in the thread but I heard something this morning that if the government stepped in, in any way, that they could restructure the union deals.
The unions, government safety restrictions, and poorly made vehicles will continue to haunt the US auto industry.
The Democrats are in the unions hip pockets. Dems will never cross organized labor.
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The Democrats are in the unions hip pockets. Dems will never cross organized labor.
What's nice is that at present the Republicans are not biting on the auto bail out. Once the ball is handed to Obama and Co. then it is on them to make the decision. They will surely blame the Republicans but in the end the people of the country and more specifically those employed by the auto industry will expect Obama to make the "change".
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What's nice is that at present the Republicans are not biting on the auto bail out. Once the ball is handed to Obama and Co. then it is on them to make the decision. They will surely blame the Republicans but in the end the people of the country and more specifically those employed by the auto industry will expect Obama to make the "change".
I don't see why... I thought the bank bailout was crap and I think bailing out the Detroit would be ridiculous.
That would be a mistake for Obama to bail them out.
Question... Why does everyone believe the dems will start bailing out people more than the Republicans did.
I still think McCain was the reason the bank bailout went from 700 to 850 billion.
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I don't see why... I thought the bank bailout was crap and I think bailing out the Detroit would be ridiculous.
I am all for bailing out Detroit!
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I am all for bailing out Detroit!
Well, we can bail you out dude... :D
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I don't see why... I thought the bank bailout was crap and I think bailing out the Detroit would be ridiculous.
That would be a mistake for Obama to bail them out.
Question... Why does everyone believe the dems will start bailing out people more than the Republicans did.
I still think McCain was the reason the bank bailout went from 700 to 850 billion.
No, what I'm saying is that the Republicans are going to focus on other issues and let Obama decide what to do. Never said that Obama will bail them out.
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Well, we can bail you out dude... :D
Crime is going up, police forces are being cut in half. Life sucks around here and I am 30 miles north of that hellhole Detroit.
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Ok.
All of you who opposes a bailout of the car industry.
Knowing that 1 in every 10 jobs in USA is affected by this industry.
What would you suggest to be done instead?
Because it's easy to stand on the side and just thrash any suggestion. What should be done instead?
I can state that I definitely don't like the bailout idea. But it seems like there is no system for re-schooling these employees, no system to use their know-how in other industries.
But I think a good start could be to launch a huge infrastructure program, like China did a few days ago.
It would create jobs and fix the lagging infrastructure, eg collapsing bridges.
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Ok.
All of you who opposes a bailout of the car industry.
Knowing that 1 in every 10 jobs in USA is affected by this industry.
Where did you get that statistic and at what levels are these other jobs affected? Do these other jobs collpase if the big 3 collapse? Do they lose some money but capable of adapting? Are 1 in 10 jobs strictly car realated in the States?
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Legacy costs, lack of US economic protectionist policies, Unions(partly to blame), and general public perception on the overall quality of US autos are all to blame.
The "Big 3" are still paying tons in health insurance to former and retired workers. Those health insurance costs are hugely more expensive than what the Japanese and European work force has to pay. In accordance with Union demands on providing healthcare to the Big 3's workforce, costs are huge in this area alone.
Most other nations have protectionist policies. We don't. Try to sell an American car overseas and it is immediately slapped with a huge tariff, whereas we get flooded with imports. The Japanese and European brands even get to have assembling plants here with a non-unionized workforce and no tariffs. To counter this, the Big 3 are forced more and more to outsource parts and factories to places such as Mexico and China. Why bail out the struggling US companies when our government legislates unfair and uneven competition designed to kill the US automotive industry? Sounds like a huge waste of money.
Unions have quickly been getting dismantled the last few decades. There is less true Union membership nowadays than there have ever has before. Their power is greatly diminished. While I think a few of their demands are a bit excessive today, one only has to look overseas to the slave-labor abused factory workers in China what happens without adequate worker protection.
American cars have really sharpened up in comparison with their Japanese and European counterparts. Fuel efficiency has greatly increased across the board and can very much compare when comparing similar models to its competition. The days of '70s Chrysler and the "truck interior" Corvette days are very much over. The amount of cheaply-produced Chinese parts within many of their models does greatly impact overall quality, however.
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No, what I'm saying is that the Republicans are going to focus on other issues and let Obama decide what to do. Never said that Obama will bail them out.
Ok, just checking..
Crime is going up, police forces are being cut in half. Life sucks around here and I am 30 miles north of that hellhole Detroit.
It's really a sad state of affairs isn't it?
Pittsburgh had many of the same issues when the steel industry fell apart.... Fucking sucks.
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Legacy costs, lack of US economic protectionist policies, Unions(partly to blame), and general public perception on the overall quality of US autos are all to blame.
The "Big 3" are still paying tons in health insurance to former and retired workers. Those health insurance costs are hugely more expensive than what the Japanese and European work force has to pay. In accordance with Union demands on providing healthcare to the Big 3's workforce, costs are huge in this area alone.
Most other nations have protectionist policies. We don't. Try to sell an American car overseas and it is immediately slapped with a huge tariff, whereas we get flooded with imports. The Japanese and European brands even get to have assembling plants here with a non-unionized workforce and no tariffs. To counter this, the Big 3 are forced more and more to outsource parts and factories to places such as Mexico and China. Why bail out the struggling US companies when our government legislates unfair and uneven competition designed to kill the US automotive industry? Sounds like a huge waste of money.
Unions have quickly been getting dismantled the last few decades. There is less true Union membership nowadays than there have ever has before. Their power is greatly diminished. While I think a few of their demands are a bit excessive today, one only has to look overseas to the slave-labor abused factory workers in China what happens without adequate worker protection.
American cars have really sharpened up in comparison with their Japanese and European counterparts. Fuel efficiency has greatly increased across the board and can very much compare when comparing similar models to its competition. The days of '70s Chrysler and the "truck interior" Corvette days are very much over. The amount of cheaply-produced Chinese parts within many of their models does greatly impact overall quality, however.
So wtf? You propose we should 'slap huge tariffs' on imported cars?
The ONLY reason anyone buys American cars nowdays is because they are cheaper than Euro and Jap counterparts.
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The stuff about the US cars getting slapped with huge tariffs here in Europe just isn't true.
It's the environmental tariffs that has been a problem.
But eg the PT Cruiser, which initially created a stir for its shape, is considered trash because its low quality, both driving and longevity.
One of the biggest US successes the last 10 years in Europe has been the Ford Ka. Small car, very popular in the mediterranean countries.
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True, lol at these guys who buy a NEW car every 5 years, the thing literally decreases 50% in value. Epic self ownage.
The best thing to do is buy a car from a rental dealership (Hertz) because it's depreciated, yet still in great condition and you'd have your pick of mileage, color, etc.....
The best value for what you'd spend on late model car.
I paid 10K cash for a '98 Chevy Monte Carlo back in '99 and it had about 10K miles on it......great condition.
I still have that car, no problems and it's the best investment I ever made.
I'll do the same thing when I buy my next car.....
There's nothing like paying cash. ;D
DIV
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The auto industry is a disaster. I've lived in southeast Michigan my whole life. My father was with GM hydraulics my whole childhood. I have more that a few drunk relatives that make near six figures on their 30th+ year at one of the big three.
My buddy owns a union employed steel company. He pays $78 per hour, per person for union employees. $78 an hour for people that barely graduated high school and live on vicodin and pocket vodka lunches.
There are people begging for jobs in Michigan. He could hire out full staffs with an hour notice at $15 an hour.....the problem is, running non-union crews in a union guarded business is impossible. The entire industry will make it their goal to bury your business.
I had a friend in high school that would work 110 hr weeks for Ford all summer. His father was an engineer there.
110 hour work weeks....the kid didn't put in 110 hours of "work" the entire summer. He wouldn't even be near the plant 110 hours a week.
My father is still in the Auto industry. He's in sales now and the stories you hear about the auto plants is mind boggling.
The stuff they find when a plant closes is ridiculous.
Janitor closets decked out with beds, TV's, mini fridges....
Tool shelves with hidden sleeping shelves.
There's a story everyone loves to tell about a "hidden room" that was found in one of the plants....the plants are so huge that there are essentially an unlimited amount of places to "hide." One of these rooms supposedly stored a mountain of empty beer cans and bottles that amounted to around $1,000 in return deposits......
The auto industry as it stands in America can't survive. You can't pay non-skilled labor that kind of money and expect a profit. You certainly can't run the kind of profit margin they run when it's nearly impossible to sell your cars in foreign markets.
Try to buy an American car in Japan and see what it costs you after the import tax mark-ups.
Buy Japanese in America and you get a better car with better gas mileage and PAY LESS for it.
You can't afford an American car in the overseas markets.
They foreign markets protect their own industries. I'm not necessarily for upping tax fees on foreign cars, but with the situation as it stands, something has to change.
The big 3 bring in an insane amount of money. The cash flow with them is absurd. It's always on the radio talk shows here....it's amazing the money that flows in and out. They make A LOT of money, but because they spend SO MUCH money, the profit margin is nothing.
They'll never be a good investment because of that profit margin. There is such a small margin of possible profit that the difference between a great quarter and a quarter of billions in losses is just a small percentage change.
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4) start building more efficient, reliable cars that get better gas mileage, there's a reason why Toyota is killing the American car companies
Would you go against international patent laws and infringe on patents owned by Toyota, Honda and Nissan?
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Excellent points Justin.
Unions, at very least, need to be overhauled. No one is arguing they haven't provided some historical benefit, but they certainly are a heavy weight the industry does not need right now.