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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Benny B on December 05, 2008, 07:45:39 AM
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Concerns over immigration and security have prompted the US government to erect more than 1,000km of fencing along the Mexican border.
But the contentious plan which cuts through private property in some areas has sparked anger among some US homeowners and farmers.
Al Jazeera's Nick Spicer reports from Brownsville, Texas, along the Mexican border.
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Al Jazeera
::)
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::)
Alas, instead of attempting to learn something new we stay glued to FOX News and avoid everything else. ::)
Why learn something new about the world regardless of the source given the dearth of international news coverage in the U.S.? No wonder you are so stupid.
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So these mexicans think the US should keep the border open for the invading criminals just so they can graze 3 cows on desert land?
C'mon now leftys, lets keep it believable at least.... This is just pathetic.
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It's hard to do anything big without pissing someone off.
But the fence IS needed
so though titties >:( ;D
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Tough titties? :D
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It's hard to do anything big without pissing someone off.
But the fence IS needed
so though titties >:( ;D
Why?
Is there no ladder out there that can't defeat it?
It's a waste of money b/c it will do nothing to address the problem.
It's like building an animal barn and putting no door on it.
It's a political move designed to appeal to a segment of society to show them something is being done.
It doesn't matter how irrational or foolish that something is, something is being done.
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It's hard to do anything big without pissing someone off.
But the fence IS needed
so though titties >:( ;D
very true
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Why?
Is there no ladder out there that can't defeat it?
It's a waste of money b/c it will do nothing to address the problem.
It's like building an animal barn and putting no door on it.
It's a political move designed to appeal to a segment of society to show them something is being done.
It doesn't matter how irrational or foolish that something is, something is being done.
you lock your doors at night dont you decker even though ppl could kick them in...it will deter ppl from entering the country yes ppl will still get in but less ppl.
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Why?
Is there no ladder out there that can't defeat it?
It's a waste of money b/c it will do nothing to address the problem.
It's like building an animal barn and putting no door on it.
It's a political move designed to appeal to a segment of society to show them something is being done.
It doesn't matter how irrational or foolish that something is, something is being done.
They can't build a fence with a monitoring system? I think they can.
A fence serves the same purpose as a lock on your front door. It's a deterrent and something that makes it more difficult for someone to rob you. Will it stop people 100%? Of course not. Will it add another protective layer? I think so. Is asking questions and then answering them kind of stupid? yes.
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you lock your doors at night dont you decker even though ppl could kick them in...it will deter ppl from entering the country yes ppl will still get in but less ppl.
Keep on hoping. I'd like to see any estimates of its efficacy. I hate it when alarmists in the government make foolish decisions like this one.
Doesn't the fence cover only 1/3 of the border?
How on earth would illegals get around that? I'd guess they'd just travel around the barrier instead of putting in the effort to get a fuckin ladder.
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The point is that our boarder must be protected, however that is accomplished.
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Keep on hoping. I'd like to see any estimates of its efficacy. I hate it when alarmists in the government make foolish decisions like this one.
Doesn't the fence cover only 1/3 of the border?
How on earth would illegals get around that? I'd guess they'd just travel around the barrier instead of putting in the effort to get a fuckin ladder.
You are being negative. ;)
Spending money on a fence is far better than spending money and lives on "Iraqi freedom"
PS, Do you leave your door unlocked everyday when you leave your home? (assuming no one is left home)
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The point is that our boarder must be protected, however that is accomplished.
Even if it means taking irrational, futile and wholly ineffectual steps to 'secure the border?'
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
I guess that's just sloganeering.
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You are being negative. ;)
Spending money on a fence is far better than spending money and lives on "Iraqi freedom"
PS, Do you leave your door unlocked everyday when you leave your home? (assuming no one is left home)
To me, they are both stupid expenditures.
The Iraq expenditures are worse b/c people are dying from what those payments are funding.
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Even if it means taking irrational, futile and wholly ineffectual steps to 'secure the border?'
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
I guess that's just sloganeering.
We are a nation of laws. There are legal means to become a US citizen and those huddled masses are expected to follow them. Are you suggesting we become a nation of anarchy and chaos?
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So these mexicans think the US should keep the border open for the invading criminals just so they can graze 3 cows on desert land?
C'mon now leftys, lets keep it believable at least.... This is just pathetic.
Mate, it doesn't matter if there is a fence or not; they will get in one way or another.
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Damn Decker I guess you have never actually seen a borer fence, it's not the same fence you have at home.
It have electronics embedded into it (is someone touch it it reports), watch towers, a road for patrols, several layers of very high metal fence with barbed wire and more.
These people are illegal immigrants not terrorists, a fence like that will stop most of them with ease.
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It's hard to do anything big without pissing someone off.
But the fence IS needed
so though titties >:( ;D
We need a fence like the once between Israel & Syria.
Illegals need to be deported asap.
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Why?
Is there no ladder out there that can't defeat it?
It's a waste of money b/c it will do nothing to address the problem.
It's like building an animal barn and putting no door on it.
It's a political move designed to appeal to a segment of society to show them something is being done.
It doesn't matter how irrational or foolish that something is, something is being done.
Pure rubbish. In the San Diego sector they said illegal crossings are down 90% since the fence went up.
Additionally, if you simply ended all welfare to illegals and notified ICE every time one of these invaders entered an emergency room, they would self deport.
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Damn Decker I guess you have never actually seen a borer fence, it's not the same fence you have at home.
It have electronics embedded into it (is someone touch it it reports), watch towers, a road for patrols, several layers of very high metal fence with barbed wire and more.
These people are illegal immigrants not terrorists, a fence like that will stop most of them with ease.
It's a triple layer magic fence extending 700 miles on a 2000 mile border.
Do I have to point out the problem with that?
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We are a nation of laws. There are legal means to become a US citizen and those huddled masses are expected to follow them. Are you suggesting we become a nation of anarchy and chaos?
No. I'm suggesting that the 700 mile fence for a 2000 mile border is a stupid idea.
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I do not understand the resistance to protect our borders.
Well, there should be some kind of protection, whether it be natural impassible terrain, fence, electronic fence/sensors, towers...whatever. Your right, protecting part of the border is less effective than protecting the whole border.
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Pure rubbish. In the San Diego sector they said illegal crossings are down 90% since the fence went up.
Additionally, if you simply ended all welfare to illegals and notified ICE every time one of these invaders entered an emergency room, they would self deport.
90%. How do you know this?
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I do not understand the resistance to protect our borders.
It's a problem that needs addressing. Building fences won't cut it. It's not that big of a problem though.
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No. I'm suggesting that the 700 mile fence for a 2000 mile border is a stupid idea.
Did you ever stop to think that part of the border is not passable due to natural elements like mountains??????????
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Did you ever stop to think that part of the border is not passable due to natural elements like mountains??????????
Or deserts, or rivers. These people risk their lives to get here.
Which mountains present an impassable obstacle?
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It's a problem that needs addressing. Building fences won't cut it. It's not that big of a problem though.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20081119-9999-1m19fence.html
Read it and weep. I was wrong. the Fence cut the illegal alien invaders down by 50% not 90%.
You liberals love having illegal aliens undercutting American citizens looking for work at a decent wage.
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So, we agree that a country must have a protected border but we disagree on the degree of the problem. Many experts who have looked into this thoroughly believe it is a problem and with what I have heard, I agree.
We need to stop rewarding illegals with benefits, care, anchor babies and failing to deport them for crimes and start making it easier for good law abiding immigrants to become citizens and contribute. The path to citizenship is too long and filled with bureaucracy. We should let more immigrants per year to petition for citizenship and lessen the time it takes to become a citizen.
People that become citizens have much more pride in the country than illegals who sneak in. I would bet that if we continue to let illegals sneak in without punishment, little by little, they change the country from the inside and still see themselves as Mexican...instead of immigrants who go through citizenship, learn about the country, love the country and consider themselves Mexican-American. Thats a bigger difference than many may think.
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(http://www.quietearth.us/img/d/doomsday-1.jpg)
(http://www.briansewell.com/images/segregation-wall-palestine.jpg)
(http://www.spontaneouscreation.org/SC/images/palestine_wall.jpg)
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you build a 12 foot fence, and they'll bring a 14 foot ladder.
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you build a 12 foot fence, and they'll bring a 14 foot ladder.
Another genius who have never been next to a real border. ::)
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Another genius who have never been next to a real border. ::)
oh, so you're a structural engineer who also lives on the border where illegals come thru all day. Sweet!
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oh, so you're a structural engineer who also lives on the border where illegals come thru all day. Sweet!
Nope but after seeing borders in my life I can safely assume that blocking some immigrants will be a piece of cake compared to armed guerrilla forces...ohh well...but that's just me using logic again..shame on me.
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you build a 12 foot fence, and they'll bring a 14 foot ladder.
Read the article. the fence cut border crossings by 50%
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What do you guys think about illegal immigrants vs immigrants who go through citizenship. Do you agree that the a larger # of illegals won't have the same pride in being American? I think this is a significant point.
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Pure rubbish. In the San Diego sector they said illegal crossings are down 90% since the fence went up.
Additionally, if you simply ended all welfare to illegals and notified ICE every time one of these invaders entered an emergency room, they would self deport.
YES!!!!! 333386 is my new favorite getbigger.
Add in every time they get a traffic ticket too.
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What do you guys think about illegal immigrants vs immigrants who go through citizenship. Do you agree that the a larger # of illegals won't have the same pride in being American? I think this is a significant point.
Illegals are not here to be citizens or to assimilate or to speak English.
They are here for a Yob and to send money back home.
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YES!!!!! 333386 is my new favorite getbigger.
Add in every time they get a traffic ticket too.
Common sense never enters into the equation when talking with people who want more illegal aliens here.
This is a simple problem to fix. It is just that we dont have the national will to do it.
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The only groups of people who are indifferent to, or want more illegals in the US:
1. The Illegals
2. Ultra-leftists, ACLU-types. College-style intellictuals
3. Employers who use them
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No. I'm suggesting that the 700 mile fence for a 2000 mile border is a stupid idea.
LOL have you been down to texas and the border to see what we have now? what about to see the terrain and adequacy of it to support life? i thought not...you talk of things you know little about...you know how the border patrol finds out if ppl have crossed the border they have about a 10 foot wide strip that looks like a dirt road, they pull tires behind their trucks to smooth it out if the find foot prints they know someone came over...YA thats real good prevention...most of the terrain would kill you if you spent a week in it maybe traveling oh say that 700 more miles would make you think twice...It also gives you a more strategic advantage of knowing where they are likely to cross.
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LOL have you been down to texas and the border to see what we have now? what about to see the terrain and adequacy of it to support life? i thought not...you talk of things you know little about...you know how the border patrol finds out if ppl have crossed the border they have about a 10 foot wide strip that looks like a dirt road, they pull tires behind their trucks to smooth it out if the find foot prints they know someone came over...YA thats real good prevention...most of the terrain would kill you if you spent a week in it maybe traveling oh say that 700 more miles would make you think twice...It also gives you a more strategic advantage of knowing where they are likely to cross.
Exactly, crossing deserts/ mountains or whatever isn't that easy. Also strategically placing the fence allow the better coverage by using less resources. For example, fencing low visibly areas thus allowing one watch tower to watch over a large plain with no fence.
These people forget that most borders in the world are fenced and guarded to protect smuggling , illegals are easy change compared to that.
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What do you guys think about illegal immigrants vs immigrants who go through citizenship. Do you agree that the a larger # of illegals won't have the same pride in being American? I think this is a significant point.
I think you're right, and in a way I think it's a slap in the face to people who will generally have more to offer our country who are coming in the legal way.
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I think you're right, and in a way I think it's a slap in the fact to people who will generally have more to offer our country who are coming in the legal way.
The government should allow much more smart immigration , MANY educated people want to work in the US due to the high salaries and low living costs but they can't since they work at real jobs and have to come in legally.
Instead you got hippies supporting the illegals who deteriorate the population :-\
I think that making the criteria for a green card much easier for experienced & educated people would only help the economy and society, its a shame that instead these people stay in their country or go to Europe.
Just think how much good an extra 10,000 Phd's + a billion or two more to support their and others research (small change compared to the money spent on other BS) would make!
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Realistically, I think we seal our borders tight as we can with all the technology and man power we can afford then give every person here temporary citizen ship for 2 years and then if they can't speak passible English then they get deported. If they can, then they get full citizenship.
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So these mexicans think the US should keep the border open for the invading criminals just so they can graze 3 cows on desert land?[...]
I guess you missed the part that says "Americans".
It don't matter: they're little brown people anyway.
::) ::) ::)
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They won't build a fence, here's why:
Serious question: Are you retarded?
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Nope but after seeing borders in my life I can safely assume that blocking some immigrants will be a piece of cake compared to armed guerrilla forces...ohh well...but that's just me using logic again..shame on me.
Wow.
That's all I can say is, "wow."
You saw a real honest-to-god border?
I'll call Fox, CBS and NBC!
We don't have borders up here in wisconsin.
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Read the article. the fence cut border crossings by 50%
Re-read the article you posted.
The fence allegedly cut illegal immigration in a 5 mile area.
Let's see, the fence is 700 miles long and it covers a 2000 mile border.
Yet illegal immigration is reduced by half in a 5 mile zone according the guesstimate in the article.
What a success!
And to think that it only cost the US taxpayer 1.2 billion dollars for that kind of success.
Shit, we could have just paid the illegals to stay home. It'd save us some money.
This is typical. Is II a problem? Yeah. Is it an emergency? Nope. It's not really a big deal at all.
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LOL have you been down to texas and the border to see what we have now? what about to see the terrain and adequacy of it to support life? i thought not...you talk of things you know little about...you know how the border patrol finds out if ppl have crossed the border they have about a 10 foot wide strip that looks like a dirt road, they pull tires behind their trucks to smooth it out if the find foot prints they know someone came over...YA thats real good prevention...most of the terrain would kill you if you spent a week in it maybe traveling oh say that 700 more miles would make you think twice...It also gives you a more strategic advantage of knowing where they are likely to cross.
Another "wow" moment. Yeah, that 1300 mile gap is a real advantage. Good point.
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Another "wow" moment. Yeah, that 1300 mile gap is a real advantage. Good point.
you didnt answer any of my questions friend, you ever been down here and seen the prevention we have now? you ever seen the terrain these ppl have to deal with? if out of the 1300 miles 1000 of it is inhospitable terrain that leaves 300 miles jack ass...answer my questions you ever been down here and seen it or you just reiterating left wing nut jobs?
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Wow.
That's all I can say is, "wow."
You saw a real honest-to-god border?
I'll call Fox, CBS and NBC!
We don't have borders up here in wisconsin.
Rather call fairy land and ask for Obama he will just ask them not to cross over and that's how you'll save from spending the money on the fence ::)
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Rather call fairy land and ask for Obama he will just ask them not to cross over and that's how you'll save from spending the money on the fence ::)
idiot
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idiot
Thanks, since you have such a lacking judgment you calling me an idiot confirms that I'm doing well.
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It is well worth it because illegal aliens cost us a fortune in health care, schools, prisons, DWI's, courts, etc etc.
Let them stay home and fix Mexico.
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you didnt answer any of my questions friend, you ever been down here and seen the prevention we have now? you ever seen the terrain these ppl have to deal with? if out of the 1300 miles 1000 of it is inhospitable terrain that leaves 300 miles jack ass...answer my questions you ever been down here and seen it or you just reiterating left wing nut jobs?
I've seen footage and pictures....
Now on to your other asinine points. Let's see, the 700 mile 1.2 billion dollar fence for a 2000+ mile border.
But wait, Tonymctones says that 1000 of those 1300 miles, apparently, are just too gosh darn tough to pass. And he pulls this information from his best used repository of knowledge--his ass.
I just read that costs attendant to the fence could reach around 6 billion.
Too bad this fence doesn't go to the heart of the problem--the socio-economic heart of the problem. You guys want globalization, II brings it home. Enjoy the fruits of your worldview.
The fence is a bullshit ploy designed to appeal to voters during an election year...a very special segment of voters.
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It is well worth it because illegal aliens cost us a fortune in health care, schools, prisons, DWI's, courts, etc etc.
Let them stay home and fix Mexico.
II is globalization coming home to roost.
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Rather call fairy land and ask for Obama he will just ask them not to cross over and that's how you'll save from spending the money on the fence ::)
Right..
I see your wisdom in building a 700 mile fence for a 2100 mile border.
And you say government spends money foolishly?
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Right..
I see your wisdom in building a 700 mile fence for a 2100 mile border.
And you say government spends money foolishly?
Than why does Mexico have a fortified border with Guatamala?
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Right..
I see your wisdom in building a 700 mile fence for a 2100 mile border.
And you say government spends money foolishly?
You gotta start somewhere....not to mention you ignore factors such as terrain and the fact that 700/2100=1/3 which means that they will now have 3/2 times the men power on each mile compared to no fence.
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You gotta start somewhere....not to mention you ignore factors such as terrain and the fact that 700/2100=1/3 which means that they will now have 3/2 times the men power on each mile compared to no fence.
If someone wants to have our country flooded with these low skilled illegal aliens, they will try to make any argument against a fence.
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we all seem to hate illegals, but BOTh parties seem to do being doing everything possible to legalize them.
Remember the kennedy/mccain amnesty bill that BOTH obama and mccain supported?
It'll happen eventually, no doubt. Illegals are a drain, but they do a lot of work.
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Why do you think the base of the gop did not united around MCLame?
Amnesty!
Illegals do work to send money out of this country to mexico, not to keep it here in this country.
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I've seen footage and pictures....
Now on to your other asinine points. Let's see, the 700 mile 1.2 billion dollar fence for a 2000+ mile border.
But wait, Tonymctones says that 1000 of those 1300 miles, apparently, are just too gosh darn tough to pass. And he pulls this information from his best used repository of knowledge--his ass.
I just read that costs attendant to the fence could reach around 6 billion.
Too bad this fence doesn't go to the heart of the problem--the socio-economic heart of the problem. You guys want globalization, II brings it home. Enjoy the fruits of your worldview.
The fence is a bullshit ploy designed to appeal to voters during an election year...a very special segment of voters.
youve seen pics, I LIVE HERE NUMB NUTS i hunt in west texas right along the border you wouldnt survive more than a few days out there.
You seem to refuse to accept the strategic advantage this give the border patrol...they cover 700 miles now i was using the 1000 miles as an example not as a verifiable number but at any rate much of this land is inhospitible i know thats hard to see from PICTURES AND VIDEO which your basing your ignorant view off of. If you know what areas have terrain that dont lend itself to support life you can concentrate more of you energy else where. LOL you want us to solve their socio economic problems? what are the numbers that we spend on illegal immigrants now in prison, medical, etc... i bet its WAY OVER 6 BILLION
http://www.osa.state.ms.us/documents/performance/illegal-immigration.pdf
25 million a year just from mississippi alone...i think it would be a net gain all in all
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They dont want a border in the first place.
They want millions and millions of illiterate peasants who dont speak english to come to the US, become dependent on welfare, and ensure votes for the RAT party just like they did with blacks. As soon as amnesty and their pathway to citizenship goes through, a GOP nominee will never win again because they will have 20 million low skilled people to fool into voting for the democrat.
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youve seen pics, I LIVE HERE NUMB NUTS i hunt in west texas right along the border you wouldnt survive more than a few days out there.
You seem to refuse to accept the strategic advantage this give the border patrol...they cover 700 miles now i was using the 1000 miles as an example not as a verifiable number but at any rate much of this land is inhospitible i know thats hard to see from PICTURES AND VIDEO which your basing your ignorant view off of. If you know what areas have terrain that dont lend itself to support life you can concentrate more of you energy else where. LOL you want us to solve their socio economic problems? what are the numbers that we spend on illegal immigrants now in prison, medical, etc... i bet its WAY OVER 6 BILLION
http://www.osa.state.ms.us/documents/performance/illegal-immigration.pdf
25 million a year just from mississippi alone...i think it would be a net gain all in all
My nuts are not numb.
Your response is fairly typical. You think your anecdotal evidence is something. Your infantile grasp of socio-economic problems manifests itself by pointing to only a negative number (which you pull directly from your ass no less)...what was that again, 6 billion. Why not 6 gajillion?
Again, 240 is right. There are what, 11 million illegals in the country? Who's gonna pay to round them up and deport them or jail them?
Your solution, like the fence itself, is a juvenille response to a complex problem. Aren't many (40-50%) of the illegals in this country here as a result of an expired VISA? How does your fuckin fence stop that?
I say we mine the border, electrify the fence and shoot to kill on-sight.
There's another well-thought out position on the matter.
Hulk knows smash. Hulk smash brown people.
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More rubbish.
Its a very simple issue, made more complicated by liberals like yourself always seeking some deeper meaning to it.
These people live in a failed state and it is easier to come to the USA and work off the books and send money home than to fix where they come from.
We dont punish employers like we should and make it far too easy for these people to collect welfare, send their anchor babies to school, and to leech off the system.
If we want to solve this mess, we simply need to make it very difficult for them to operate here.
I would start by taxing their wire transfers to mexico at a rate to make sure that all income taxes were paid.
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These people live in a failed state
Sadly, Peso has outperformed the dollar in the last 8 years.
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Sadly, Peso has outperformed the dollar in the last 8 years.
THAN WHY ARE THEY FLOOODING TO THE USA?????????
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My nuts are not numb.
Your response is fairly typical. You think your anecdotal evidence is something. Your infantile grasp of socio-economic problems manifests itself by pointing to only a negative number (which you pull directly from your ass no less)...what was that again, 6 billion. Why not 6 gajillion?
Again, 240 is right. There are what, 11 million illegals in the country? Who's gonna pay to round them up and deport them or jail them?
Your solution, like the fence itself, is a juvenille response to a complex problem. Aren't many (40-50%) of the illegals in this country here as a result of an expired VISA? How does your fuckin fence stop that?
I say we mine the border, electrify the fence and shoot to kill on-sight.
There's another well-thought out position on the matter.
Hulk knows smash. Hulk smash brown people.
the 6 billion number was yours jackass...maybe we are miscommunicating a bit here im not saying this will solve our immigration problem. what im saying is that this will help the immigration problem more so than you give credit to it...you base your opinion off of pictures and videos and im the misinformed one? There are many many problems that need to be addressed and them crossing the border is one of them, not by any means the only or most important one but an important one none the less.
You seem to be under the thinking that these ppl go undetected through our systems...these ppl use our medical facilities, our jails, our employeers, our check cashing business b/c they dont have banking accounts...there are many ways to find these ppl. We dont necissarily need a force designated to round them up...they come into a hosptial you call the cops, they get arrested they get deported, you dont cash their checks with out some sort of proof they are a citizen...they will leave i promise.
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More rubbish.
Its a very simple issue, made more complicated by liberals like yourself always seeking some deeper meaning to it.
These people live in a failed state and it is easier to come to the USA and work off the books and send money home than to fix where they come from.
We dont punish employers like we should and make it far too easy for these people to collect welfare, send their anchor babies to school, and to leech off the system.
If we want to solve this mess, we simply need to make it very difficult for them to operate here.
I would start by taxing their wire transfers to mexico at a rate to make sure that all income taxes were paid.
Life's as simple as you wish to make it....perspective-wise.
Mexico is a failed state? Was it all those free market reforms implemented by Fox?
Does any of this change your mind? (I don't know how to post the charts so you'll have to go to the source to review).
Immigration "Facts" Debunked
With so many groups having self-serving interests in the rise in US immigration the chance of getting impartial information is slight. Here is my attempt to provide some data, along with my personal opinions.
First lets discuss two of the popular themes:
"Immigrants are taking jobs away from Americans."
If this is true than why isn't the unemployment rate going up? And how is it that most new immigrants find work? There may be a changing dynamic in the work force, but this mantra doesn't explain it. The data shows that the unemployment rate various over time, but recent changes in immigration don't correlate with the trends. This will be shown below.
"Immigrants are pushing the cost of labor down."
Immigration has only risen sharply within the last 10 years. NAFTA started in 1994.
The stagnation in the wages and earnings of the working class has been going on since before Reagan. The rise in the wealth of the top 5% has grown significantly in the past 20 years. The lower sectors have not.
"Securing our borders will stop illegal immigration."
The INS estimates that roughly 40% of the illegal immigrants living in the U.S., originally entered the country on non-immigrant visas (such as H-1B, L-1, etc.). These non-immigrants have become "illegal" immigrants by overstaying their visas. These people didn't jump a fence or swim across the Rio Grande, they flew in and entered legally. Building a wall won't change this. Tracking these people would require a national identity card that would have to be presented before many transactions could be completed. In much of the world, for example, one has to surrender one's passport when booking a hotel room or register with the police as a foreign visitor. Is that what people mean by securing the border?
My take on the issues:
NAFTA has caused economic dislocation in Mexico which is forcing more people to migrate. Imports of corn have decimated the local agricultural sector and the brief rise in outsourced US manufacturing has ceased as these factories have now moved on to Asia.
(A more recent paper covers this issue in more detail USDA Study (PDF))
The decline in unionization is what is responsible for the loss of earnings power. When union participation dropped wages stagnated. There is a delay in the effect caused by the existence of multi-year labor contracts.
Countries which still have strong unionization show less disparity in the distribution of wealth.
Societies in decline find scapegoats to blame for their problems. These are always the weak, and never the cause of the problem. They are a good distraction, however.
The real issue is not immigration, but the loss of political and economic power by the working and middle classes. One can argue whether the US as a whole is in economic decline, or whether we have just become economically imbalanced. Whichever it is, immigration is not the problem. Poor economic, social and industrial policies are
http://robertdfeinman.com/society/immigration.html
This guy makes a lot of sense to me.
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Remember when Patton and Pershing had to go the border in 1909?????? He took out some of those mexis even back then who were causing problems. Patton shot two of Pancho Villa's men and tied them to his car and drove them back to the base.
We need more men like George Patton and less panzies like Schumer, Dodd, and Reid.
Mexico has been a mess for decades, if not longer.
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the 6 billion number was yours jackass...maybe we are miscommunicating a bit here im not saying this will solve our immigration problem. what im saying is that this will help the immigration problem more so than you give credit to it...you base your opinion off of pictures and videos and im the misinformed one? There are many many problems that need to be addressed and them crossing the border is one of them, not by any means the only or most important one but an important one none the less.
You seem to be under the thinking that these ppl go undetected through our systems...these ppl use our medical facilities, our jails, our employeers, our check cashing business b/c they dont have banking accounts...there are many ways to find these ppl. We dont necissarily need a force designated to round them up...they come into a hosptial you call the cops, they get arrested they get deported, you dont cash their checks with out some sort of proof they are a citizen...they will leave i promise.
So it was, so it was. Actually I was referring to estimates of the long term costs of the 1.2 billion dollar fence. The fact of the matter is still that your fuckin fence covers less than a third of the border. All your talk about a 'natural' barrier, impassable I'd guess, that supplements the fence is just wishful thinking.
You got your fence. Now we'll see more illegals just get temporary visas and disappear into the crowd. How's your fence handling that?
In spirit, every fence is defeated by a ladder. The fence is just a sop to anti-immigrant crowds (illegal or not) and racists.
I seem to be under the impression that illegals pump hundreds of billions of dollars into the US economy in both tax payments and spending. But wait, your side shouts, there's a Heritage Foundation study that shows...."
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So it was, so it was. Actually I was referring to estimates of the long term costs of the 1.2 billion dollar fence. The fact of the matter is still that your fuckin fence covers less than a third of the border. All your talk about a 'natural' barrier, impassable I'd guess, that supplements the fence is just wishful thinking.
You got your fence. Now we'll see more illegals just get temporary visas and disappear into the crowd. How's your fence handling that?
In spirit, every fence is defeated by a ladder. The fence is just a sop to anti-immigrant crowds (illegal or not) and racists.
I seem to be under the impression that illegals pump hundreds of billions of dollars into the US economy in both tax payments and spending. But wait, your side shouts, there's a Heritage Foundation study that shows...."
Decker, question: Do you see illegal aliens in America as a problem?
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So it was, so it was. Actually I was referring to estimates of the long term costs of the 1.2 billion dollar fence. The fact of the matter is still that your fuckin fence covers less than a third of the border. All your talk about a 'natural' barrier, impassable I'd guess, that supplements the fence is just wishful thinking.
You got your fence. Now we'll see more illegals just get temporary visas and disappear into the crowd. How's your fence handling that?
In spirit, every fence is defeated by a ladder. The fence is just a sop to anti-immigrant crowds (illegal or not) and racists.
I seem to be under the impression that illegals pump hundreds of billions of dollars into the US economy in both tax payments and spending. But wait, your side shouts, there's a Heritage Foundation study that shows...."
and my point was that the fence and other steps will cost less in the long run then dealing with illegal immigrants and the problems the present...
yes but in keeping with that logic there is nothing we can do to prevent illegals from coming over ever b/c no matter what we do there will always be somebody who beats the system...does that mean we shouldnt try?
LOL dont get me wrong bro i understand better that most on here or in general what illegals contribute to the economy...I currently work for a custom home builder(who doesnt use illegals but have seen other companies that do), done landscaping(not mowing i mean fuking landscaping) and many other jobs in my youth that dealt with illegals...but to just look at that and ignore the facts that they are a drain on our government systems and increase crime rate among other factors is ignorant and not the best way of looking at things bro.
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Decker, question: Do you see illegal aliens in America as a problem?
good question i think this is why the difference in opinions...
I seem to be under the impression that illegals pump hundreds of billions of dollars into the US economy in both tax payments and spending. But wait, your side shouts, there's a Heritage Foundation study that shows...."
i think this says it all
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So it was, so it was. Actually I was referring to estimates of the long term costs of the 1.2 billion dollar fence. The fact of the matter is still that your fuckin fence covers less than a third of the border. All your talk about a 'natural' barrier, impassable I'd guess, that supplements the fence is just wishful thinking.
You got your fence. Now we'll see more illegals just get temporary visas and disappear into the crowd. How's your fence handling that?
GEZZZ louise man are you that ignorant about any sort of knowledge on this? Not all the land is inhospitible but if some is and you put a fence up on the parts that arent or the parts that are the most crossed over regions i.e. city areas or close to city areas then where do you think they will cross over? probably the areas that arent covered by a fence that is the best suited to support them during their travel correct? well if you know this you can concentrate more energy there then alond the entire border dont you agree?
AGAIN
maybe we are miscommunicating a bit here im not saying this will solve our immigration problem. what im saying is that this will help the immigration problem more so than you give credit to it...you base your opinion off of pictures and videos and im the misinformed one? There are many many problems that need to be addressed and them crossing the border is one of them, not by any means the only or most important one but an important one none the less.
You seem to be under the thinking that these ppl go undetected through our systems...these ppl use our medical facilities, our jails, our employeers, our check cashing business b/c they dont have banking accounts...there are many ways to find these ppl. We dont necissarily need a force designated to round them up...they come into a hosptial you call the cops, they get arrested they get deported, you dont cash their checks with out some sort of proof they are a citizen...they will leave i promise.
reread this...
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Decker, question: Do you see illegal aliens in America as a problem?
Yes. The US has implemented a procedure for legal immigration. Illegals fly in the face of that lawful process. To me, a better way of spending enforcement dollars is to hire more INS agents for more effective, widespread sweeps to round up unlawfuls and process their punishment in a more economic way--either go with deportation--which is just throwing 'em back so they can try again--or some sort of punishment that will benefit the State and will also incorporate steps to citizenship....sort of like the rehabilitation of convicts.
While they are cleaning our highways or making license plates, they are also earning credit/education towards citizenship.
The US still takes the huddled masses, they just have to stand in line to get here.
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"While they are cleaning our highways or making license plates, they are also earning credit/education towards citizenship."
And guess who is against that plan????????????????????????
The Unions!
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"While they are cleaning our highways or making license plates, they are also earning credit/education towards citizenship."
And guess who is against that plan????????????????????????
The Unions!
I doubt it.
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"We dont punish employers like we should and make it far too easy for these people to collect welfare, send their anchor babies to school, and to leech off the system.
If we want to solve this mess, we simply need to make it very difficult for them to operate here".
----------------------
If you take away the benefits, there will be less people looking to get in illegally. If we want them to become productive citizens, there must be rewards/incentive for citizenship. IMO, the key is punishing the employers and giving benefits only if they are citizens or on a monitored path to citizenship.
The more illegals that cross our borders, the more power the illegals have in changing our country from the inside. Becoming a legal citizen makes them feel like a real part of America and their hard work is admired and respected.
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I doubt it.
Who do you think it the biggest road block to prison labor cleaning up trash and being productive??????
UNIONS.
Unions are the biggest obtacle to progress in many areas.
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Patton shot two of Pancho Villa's men and tied them to his car and drove them back to the base.
I saw a show about Patton on TV the other night. He was a hell of a guy.
(http://www.thewargame.com/images/American%20Generals%206%20(NARA).jpg)
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I saw a show about Patton on TV the other night. He was a hell of a guy.
(http://www.thewargame.com/images/American%20Generals%206%20(NARA).jpg)
Patton is my historical favorite person of all time.
Many people know of his WW2 exploits, but know little of how he was in the Olympics, kicked ass on the Mexican border, and was shot in WW1.
Patton was a flawed person, but a genius at war and the reality of combat.
Read a book about Patton. The man was amazing.
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Yes. The US has implemented a procedure for legal immigration. Illegals fly in the face of that lawful process. To me, a better way of spending enforcement dollars is to hire more INS agents for more effective, widespread sweeps to round up unlawfuls and process their punishment in a more economic way--either go with deportation--which is just throwing 'em back so they can try again--or some sort of punishment that will benefit the State and will also incorporate steps to citizenship....sort of like the rehabilitation of convicts.
While they are cleaning our highways or making license plates, they are also earning credit/education towards citizenship.
The US still takes the huddled masses, they just have to stand in line to get here.
another question while in these punishment/rehabilitation processes are they allowed to live at home or in jail? if they are allowed to live at home whats to stop them from leaving for another town to find work which will undoubtedly pay better than the government...if they are to stay in jail we will still be footing the bill as tax payers for food, supervision etc...
throwing them back over wont do anything as long as they can just walk right back across...i.e. a big wall might stop that.
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another question while in these punishment/rehabilitation processes are they allowed to live at home or in jail? if they are allowed to live at home whats to stop them from leaving for another town to find work which will undoubtedly pay better than the government...if they are to stay in jail we will still be footing the bill as tax payers for food, supervision etc...
throwing them back over wont do anything as long as they can just walk right back across...i.e. a big wall might stop that.
A wall is not the end all and be all, it will stop a lot of them, but not all.
Other measures, like taxing foreign remittances to Mexico, ending welfare to illegals, ending the anchor baby situation, will also help.
Fining employers will also help.
All of this together would make a serious dent in the problem.
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Who do you think it the biggest road block to prison labor cleaning up trash and being productive??????
UNIONS.
Unions are the biggest obtacle to progress in many areas.
Decrying the misuse of labor is a far cry from what you're stating. You paint with too broad a brush.
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another question while in these punishment/rehabilitation processes are they allowed to live at home or in jail? if they are allowed to live at home whats to stop them from leaving for another town to find work which will undoubtedly pay better than the government...if they are to stay in jail we will still be footing the bill as tax payers for food, supervision etc...
throwing them back over wont do anything as long as they can just walk right back across...i.e. a big wall might stop that.
The demand for the labor these people provide will keep 'em comin'.
It's an ongoing problem that a giant fence can't solve.
Fake IDs lead to new VISAs and more illegals. Your wall won't stop it. Your wall won't slow it.
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1 in 10 Americans are under or at the poverty line. These Americans should be doing some of the work the illegals pick up. I hate hearing "they are doing jobs Americans won't do". If you are empoverished, you do whatever f'n work is available to feed your kids and have some kind of pride.
On a related note, illegals are hired to do all sorts of work, its not just farming and landscaping like some think. Many illegals quickly learn a trade and are much cheaper to hire than union laborers...there again punishing the employer applies.
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1 in 10 Americans are under or at the poverty line. These Americans should be doing some of the work the illegals pick up. I hate hearing "they are doing jobs Americans won't do". If you are empoverished, you do whatever f'n work is available to feed your kids and have some kind of pride.
On a related note, illegals are hired to do all sorts of work, its not just farming and landscaping like some think. Many illegals quickly learn a trade and are much cheaper to hire than union laborers...there again punishing the employer applies.
Almost all of my clients are in the construction business in NYC. They hire illegals for the following reasons:
1. Work cheaper and are easier to intimidate.
2. Are reliable to shop up because they know they can be fired instantly and more will always fill in.
3. Will work for cash and dont care about being covered by workers comp, etc.
4. Dont speak English and thus cant talk back. They are like slaves.
5. Usually dont report the employer for unsafe work conditions.
6. Do not support familes in the US, thus requiring higher wages.
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1 in 10 Americans are under or at the poverty line. These Americans should be doing some of the work the illegals pick up. I hate hearing "they are doing jobs Americans won't do". If you are empoverished, you do whatever f'n work is available to feed your kids and have some kind of pride.
On a related note, illegals are hired to do all sorts of work, its not just farming and landscaping like some think. Many illegals quickly learn a trade and are much cheaper to hire than union laborers...there again punishing the employer applies.
My brother's company gets a lot of illegals as workers. INS sweeps through regularly. It's a vicious cycle.
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Who do you think it the biggest road block to prison labor cleaning up trash and being productive??????
UNIONS.
Unions are the biggest obtacle to progress in many areas.
This is true.
In Oregon they don't use the prisoners anymore to clean highways because the unions complained so much. Back in the 90's the voters passed a measure that said that prisoners with greater than 1 year sentance and with non-violent crimes had to put in a 40 hour week doing some sort of public service (cleaning roads, building forest trails, eco-restoration), and the unions sued the state continuously until the whole thing was shut down cold.
I can see where they are coming from... Hard to get prevailing wage when the government can get labor (akin to hispanic labor at least) for 15 cents an hour for the same job description.
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1 in 10 Americans are under or at the poverty line. These Americans should be doing some of the work the illegals pick up. I hate hearing "they are doing jobs Americans won't do". If you are empoverished, you do whatever f'n work is available to feed your kids and have some kind of pride.
On a related note, illegals are hired to do all sorts of work, its not just farming and landscaping like some think. Many illegals quickly learn a trade and are much cheaper to hire than union laborers...there again punishing the employer applies.
Take a good look and I think you will see that the majority of people who live in poverty do so voluntarily. They frequently flat out refuse to work or get educated and improve their state in life. And why should they, when their basic needs (food stamps, housing credits, WIC) are all met?
This is why poverty and it's associated activities will never be solved through handouts. It's like feeding a stray cat will not make it hunt. Cut off the majority of welfare programs, and MAKE people in poverty earn their keep. THEN there is an incentive to be a little proactive about your lot in life...
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But who gets the shaft????? The taxpayer.
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The demand for the labor these people provide will keep 'em comin'.
It's an ongoing problem that a giant fence can't solve.
Fake IDs lead to new VISAs and more illegals. Your wall won't stop it. Your wall won't slow it.
again i agree with you that a wall wont solve the problem but it is PART of the solution not THE SOLUTION, if you really think that it wont slow them down your an ignorant fool and need to visit this region instead of just looking at pictures and videos.
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Take a good look and I think you will see that the majority of people who live in poverty do so voluntarily. They frequently flat out refuse to work or get educated and improve their state in life. And why should they, when their basic needs (food stamps, housing credits, WIC) are all met?
This is why poverty and it's associated activities will never be solved through handouts. It's like feeding a stray cat will not make it hunt. Cut off the majority of welfare programs, and MAKE people in poverty earn their keep. THEN there is an incentive to be a little proactive about your lot in life...
very very true, i dont know about the majority but a damn good number of ppl chose to live a certain lifestyle...just like certain ppl chose to be succesful its not a good hand this bad hand that its hard work this and no work that.
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again i agree with you that a wall wont solve the problem but it is PART of the solution not THE SOLUTION, if you really think that it wont slow them down your an ignorant fool and need to visit this region instead of just looking at pictures and videos.
I don't have to walk every mile of the fence to know it's a loser proposition under a cost/benefit analysis.
Maybe your on the outside Buddy but in case you haven't noticed, the US doesn't have the 1.2 billion dollars to pay for fucking fences. Instead of admitting this and that another fence is sort of stupid idea, you cling like dingleberries to the notion that the fence really is doing some good.
The cost of building and maintaining a double set of steel fences along 700 miles of the U.S.-Mexico border could be five to 25 times greater than congressional leaders forecast last year, or as much as $49 billion over the expected 25-year life span of the fence, according to the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/01/08/BAG6RNEJJG1.DTL
Here's a test for you;
Will The Border Fence Work Ya Think?
http://blogs.bootsnall.com/nomads/will-the-border-fence-work.html
A two billion dollar 700 mile fence.
Take a quiz and see if you think if it’s worth it:
Quiz on Undocumented Immigration
True or False:
1. _____ Up to 45% of undocumented immigrants entered the U.S. with valid documentation which has expired.
2. _____ More immigrants come to the U.S. illegally than legally.
3. _____ The IRS encourages undocumented workers to file income taxes by providing them with an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number.
4. _____ Undocumented immigrants may not be refused medical treatment in U.S. emergency rooms. Therefore these immigrants burden hospitals at a higher rate than the native-born.
5. _____ Undocumented men have a 96% labor force participation rate.
6. _____ 0% of 9/11 terrorist attackers arrived without authorization.
7. _____ States make the decision whether undocumented students are allowed access to K-12 public school
8. _____ Border control efforts have been successful in reducing immigration levels.
9. _____ It is estimated that building a 700-mile physical wall on the U.S.-Mexico border would cost $2.2 billion in taxpayer dollars.
Multiple Choice
1. Undocumented immigrants make up approximately what percent of the total U.S. population?
A. 3-5%
B. 10%
C. 25-50%
2. Undocumented immigrants are eligible for which of the following benefits?
A. TANF (cash support)
B. Food Stamps
C. Medicaid
D. None of the above
3. Undocumented immigrants have played an integral role in financing Social Security as the U.S. population ages. A study in 2005 found that undocumented immigrants pay HOW MUCH in Social Security taxes that they will never be able to claim?
A. $4 billion
B. $6-7 billion
C. $10-12 billion
4. As border security has intensified, passage through the inhospitable deserts where there is less vigilance has led to increasing numbers of deaths of migrants due to exposure and drowning. In 2007 the number of migrant deaths discovered on the Arizona border alone was
A. 44
B. 168
C. 237
5. Approximately how many undocumented children are there in the United States ? (of a total of 12 million undocumented persons)
Half a million
A. 1.8 million
B. 2.5 million
6. Of the undocumented population, approximately what percentage comes from Mexico ?
A. 57%
B. 23%
C. 10%
D. 5%
7. What percentage of the U.S. workforce is undocumented?
A. 1%
B. 5%
C. 9%
D. 15%
8. The long waits for the admission of family members of legal permanent residents leads to undocumented immigration. How long would it take for a lawful permanent resident from Mexico to legally bring her two-year old son to join her in the U.S. ?
A. 6 months
B. 1.5 years
C. 2-4 years
D. 4-7 years
Reyes, Belinda I. et. al. “The Effect of the Recent Border Build-up on Unauthorized Immigration.” 2002. Public Policy Institute of California . Accessed in August 2006 from http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/report/R_702BRR.pdf.
Answers
True / False
1. True: Up to 45% of undocumented immigrants entered the U.S. with valid documentation which has expired while 55% have entered without authorization. [1]
2. False: The Urban Institute estimates that in the past decade, legal immigration has averaged 800.000 persons a year, and net immigration has averaged 500,000 persons a year. Note: In general estimates on illegal immigration are difficult because the same person may cross back and forth across the border multiple times inflating the number of perceived immigrants. [2]
3. True In addition to paying sales and property taxes, undocumented workers who do not have a Social Security Number are able to file income taxes using an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN). This special number, created by the IRS, allows individuals to pay taxes regardless of their immigration status.
4. False While undocumented immigrants do have access to emergency assistance, a recent report revealed that they do not put any more burden on hospitals than the U.S.-born do.[3]
5. True Undocumented men have a 96% labor force participation rate.[4] This rate exceeds that of legal immigrants and U.S. citizens, suggesting very high self-sufficiency among undocumented men.
6. True 0% of 9/11 terrorist attackers arrived without authorization.[5]
7. False A Supreme Court decision in 1982, Plyler v. Doe, held that governments must provide the same free public education to undocumented children as they provide to other children.[6] This decision was based on the desire to prevent a permanent underclass and to avoid punishing children for actions of their parents.[7]
8. False In 1993, the Border Patrol was making slightly less than 1 million apprehensions a year. Thirteen years later, the Border Patrol is making over 1 million apprehensions each year.[8] Border control efforts have led to more deaths and human smuggling, and have actually increased the rate of permanent settlement in the U.S.[9]
9. True It is estimated that building a 700-mile physical wall on the U.S.-Mexico border would cost $2.2 billion in taxpayer dollars[10]
Multiple Choice
1. Answer A : Recent estimates show the total population of undocumented persons in the U.S. is approximately 11-12 million.[11] Even the highest estimate accounts for less than 4% of the U.S. population (approximately 296 million)
2. Answer D: In 1996, a federal law was passed that heavily restricted legal and illegal immigrants from utilizing public assistance programs. Undocumented immigrants are excluded from all federal public welfare programs.[12] The only assistance they may receive is medical attention in the emergency room.
3. Answer B: Undocumented immigrants have played an integral role in financing Social Security as the U.S. population ages. A study in 2005 found that undocumented immigrants pay HOW MUCH in Social Security taxes that they will never be able to claim?[13]
4. Answer C: With no official record-keeping system, the exact number of illegal entrants who have died along the Arizona stretch of U.S.-Mexican border has never been known. In the summer of 2004, the Arizona Daily Star started compiling border deaths recorded by the Pima, Santa Cruz, Cochise and Yuma County medical examiners in an effort to present an accurate tally of the numbers of people who die crossing into the United States illegally through Southern Arizona. In fiscal year 2007, 237 bodies were found.[14]
5. Answer B: 1.8 million are children.[15] There are approximately 1.3 million children who have lived in the U.S. for five or more years and who were enrolled in K-12 schools in the year 2002.[16]
6. Answer A: Of the undocumented population, approximately 57% come from Mexico, 23% come from the rest of Latin America, 10% come from Asia, 5% come from Europe and Canada, and 5% come from other areas.[17] These statistics reflect many stories – the absence of available visas, U.S. labor market demand, past and present U.S. trade policies, and growing economic disparities between nations.
7. Answer B: Unauthorized immigrants represent 5% of the U.S. labor force.[18]
Much of this labor force participation is concentrated in construction and service sectors.[19] Top economists argue that immigrant labor is vital to our economy and boosts our labor force.[20]
8. Answer D: Due to bureaucratic backlogs and visa limitations, a Lawful Permanent Resident (LPR) trying to bring a spouse or child from Mexico must wait 4-7 years.[21]
Sources
[1] Pew Hispanic Center. “Modes of Entry for the Unauthorized Migrant Population.” May 22, 2006.
[2] Capps, Randy and Fix, Michael. Ündocumented Immigrants: Myths and Reality,¨ Urban Institute and Migration Policy Institute. October 2005.
[3] Cunningham, Peter J. “What Accounts For Differences In The Use Of Hospital Emergency Departments Across U.S. Communities?” Health Affairs. July 18, 2006. Accessed July 2006 from healthaffairs site
[4] Passel et al. “Undocumented Immigrants: Facts and Figures.” Urban Institute. January 12, 2004. Accessed June, 2006 at http://www.urban.org/publications/1000587.html.
[5] Appleseed. “Forcing Our Blues Into Gray Areas: Local Police and Federal Immigration Enforcement.” p. 5. January, 2006. Accessed August, 2006 from: http://appleseeds.net/servlet/PublicationInfo?articleId=70.
[6] Plyler v. Doe, 452 U.S. 202, 223 (1982).
[7] Weissbrodt, David and Danielson, Laura. Immigration Law and Procedure. 5th Edition. Thomson West. 2005. p. 527
[8] Wayne A. Cornelius. “Impacts of Border Enforcement on Unauthorized Mexican Migration to the United States” Sep 26, 2006. Accessed in June 2008 at http://borderbattles.ssrc.org/Cornelius/
[9] Wayne A. Cornelius, Death at the Border: Efficacy and Unintended Consequences of U.S. Immigration Control Policy, 27(4) POPULATION AND DEVELOPMENT REVIEW 669 (2001).
[10] National Network for Immigrant and Refugee Rights. “Immigration Proposal Comparisons: Bush, Sensenbrenner, Specter.” March, 2006. Accessed August, 2006 from: http://www.nnirr.org/projects/immigrationreform/Bush_Sensenbrenner_Specter.pdf#search=
%22wall%2C%20Mexico%2C%20cost%2C%20immigration%22.
[11] Urban Institute. “Children of Undocumented Immigrants.” May 16, 2006. Accessed August, 2006 from: http://www.urban.org/publications/900955.html.
[12] Fix, Michael and Haskins, Ron. ¨Welfare Benefits for Non-citizens.¨ The Brookings Institution. Policy Brief #15. 2002.
[13] Capps, Randy and Fix, Michael. “Undocumented Immigrants: Myths and Reality.” The Urban Institute and the Migration Policy Institute. Oct, 2005. Accessed January 2006 from: http://www.urban.org/publications/900898.html.
[14] “Death on the Border. Arizona Daily Star. Accessed June 2008 from: http://regulus.azstarnet.com/borderdeaths/search.php
[15] “Recently Arrived Migrants and the Congressional Debate on Immigration.” Pew Hispanic Center. April, 2006.
[16] Protopsaltis, Spiros. “Undocumented Immigrant Students and Access to Higher Education: An Overview of Federal and State Policy.” The Bell Policy Center. 2005. Accessed Feb. 06 from: http://www.thebell.org/pdf/UndocumentedStudents_HigherEd.pdf.
[17] “Undocumented Immigrants: Facts and Figures.” Urban Institute. January 2004. Accessed June, 2006 at http://www.urban.org/publications/1000587.html.
[18] Passel et al. “Undocumented Immigrants: Facts and Figures.” Urban Institute. January 12, 2004. Accessed June, 2006 at http://www.urban.org/publications/1000587.html.
[19] “The Labor Force Status of Short-Term Unauthorized Workers.” Pew Hispanic Center. April 13, 2006
[20] The Independent Institute. Open Letter on Immigration. June 19, 2006. Accessed July 2006 from: http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1727 and Peri, Giovanni, Ph.D. “Immigrants, Skills, and Wages: Measuring the Economic Gains from Immigration.” Immigration Policy In Focus. Vol. 5, Issue 3. p.4. March 2003.
[21] United States Department of State. “Visa Bulletin.” August 2006. Number 96 Volume VII. Washington D.C. Accessed in July 2006 from http://travel.state.gov/visa/frvi/bulletin/bulletin_2978.html.
"Wall or no wall, I will try at least three times," said Martinez, who said he would try to cross by himself through Tecate, a mountainous town about 35 miles east of Tijuana. "I have three girls that I have to support, and in Mexico there is no work."
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I have no problem not paying 2 billion for a wall if I know they will spend 2 billion on new ICE officers and immigration courts to deport illegal aliens.
I also want to see the USA demand reperations from Mexico for the costs we have to spend on prisons for many of the pedophiles and sexual predators they send here.
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Not gonna happen. It's absolutly amazing the extent our government will bend over to politically appease and accommodate the mexican state.
Hell, Vincinte Fox even came to Washington to protest the building of the origional border wall back in the day...
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I don't have to walk every mile of the fence to know it's a loser proposition under a cost/benefit analysis.
Maybe your on the outside Buddy but in case you haven't noticed, the US doesn't have the 1.2 billion dollars to pay for fucking fences. Instead of admitting this and that another fence is sort of stupid idea, you cling like dingleberries to the notion that the fence really is doing some good.
The cost of building and maintaining a double set of steel fences along 700 miles of the U.S.-Mexico border could be five to 25 times greater than congressional leaders forecast last year, or as much as $49 billion over the expected 25-year life span of the fence, according to the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/01/08/BAG6RNEJJG1.DTL
Here's a test for you;
Will The Border Fence Work Ya Think?
http://blogs.bootsnall.com/nomads/will-the-border-fence-work.html
A two billion dollar 700 mile fence.
Take a quiz and see if you think if it’s worth it:
Quiz on Undocumented Immigration
True or False:
1. _____ Up to 45% of undocumented immigrants entered the U.S. with valid documentation which has expired.
2. _____ More immigrants come to the U.S. illegally than legally.
3. _____ The IRS encourages undocumented workers to file income taxes by providing them with an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number.
4. _____ Undocumented immigrants may not be refused medical treatment in U.S. emergency rooms. Therefore these immigrants burden hospitals at a higher rate than the native-born.
5. _____ Undocumented men have a 96% labor force participation rate.
6. _____ 0% of 9/11 terrorist attackers arrived without authorization.
7. _____ States make the decision whether undocumented students are allowed access to K-12 public school
8. _____ Border control efforts have been successful in reducing immigration levels.
9. _____ It is estimated that building a 700-mile physical wall on the U.S.-Mexico border would cost $2.2 billion in taxpayer dollars.
Multiple Choice
1. Undocumented immigrants make up approximately what percent of the total U.S. population?
A. 3-5%
B. 10%
C. 25-50%
2. Undocumented immigrants are eligible for which of the following benefits?
A. TANF (cash support)
B. Food Stamps
C. Medicaid
D. None of the above
3. Undocumented immigrants have played an integral role in financing Social Security as the U.S. population ages. A study in 2005 found that undocumented immigrants pay HOW MUCH in Social Security taxes that they will never be able to claim?
A. $4 billion
B. $6-7 billion
C. $10-12 billion
4. As border security has intensified, passage through the inhospitable deserts where there is less vigilance has led to increasing numbers of deaths of migrants due to exposure and drowning. In 2007 the number of migrant deaths discovered on the Arizona border alone was
A. 44
B. 168
C. 237
5. Approximately how many undocumented children are there in the United States ? (of a total of 12 million undocumented persons)
Half a million
A. 1.8 million
B. 2.5 million
6. Of the undocumented population, approximately what percentage comes from Mexico ?
A. 57%
B. 23%
C. 10%
D. 5%
7. What percentage of the U.S. workforce is undocumented?
A. 1%
B. 5%
C. 9%
D. 15%
8. The long waits for the admission of family members of legal permanent residents leads to undocumented immigration. How long would it take for a lawful permanent resident from Mexico to legally bring her two-year old son to join her in the U.S. ?
A. 6 months
B. 1.5 years
C. 2-4 years
D. 4-7 years
Reyes, Belinda I. et. al. “The Effect of the Recent Border Build-up on Unauthorized Immigration.” 2002. Public Policy Institute of California . Accessed in August 2006 from http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/report/R_702BRR.pdf.
Answers
True / False
1. True: Up to 45% of undocumented immigrants entered the U.S. with valid documentation which has expired while 55% have entered without authorization. [1]
2. False: The Urban Institute estimates that in the past decade, legal immigration has averaged 800.000 persons a year, and net immigration has averaged 500,000 persons a year. Note: In general estimates on illegal immigration are difficult because the same person may cross back and forth across the border multiple times inflating the number of perceived immigrants. [2]
3. True In addition to paying sales and property taxes, undocumented workers who do not have a Social Security Number are able to file income taxes using an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN). This special number, created by the IRS, allows individuals to pay taxes regardless of their immigration status.
4. False While undocumented immigrants do have access to emergency assistance, a recent report revealed that they do not put any more burden on hospitals than the U.S.-born do.[3]
5. True Undocumented men have a 96% labor force participation rate.[4] This rate exceeds that of legal immigrants and U.S. citizens, suggesting very high self-sufficiency among undocumented men.
6. True 0% of 9/11 terrorist attackers arrived without authorization.[5]
7. False A Supreme Court decision in 1982, Plyler v. Doe, held that governments must provide the same free public education to undocumented children as they provide to other children.[6] This decision was based on the desire to prevent a permanent underclass and to avoid punishing children for actions of their parents.[7]
8. False In 1993, the Border Patrol was making slightly less than 1 million apprehensions a year. Thirteen years later, the Border Patrol is making over 1 million apprehensions each year.[8] Border control efforts have led to more deaths and human smuggling, and have actually increased the rate of permanent settlement in the U.S.[9]
9. True It is estimated that building a 700-mile physical wall on the U.S.-Mexico border would cost $2.2 billion in taxpayer dollars[10]
Multiple Choice
1. Answer A : Recent estimates show the total population of undocumented persons in the U.S. is approximately 11-12 million.[11] Even the highest estimate accounts for less than 4% of the U.S. population (approximately 296 million)
2. Answer D: In 1996, a federal law was passed that heavily restricted legal and illegal immigrants from utilizing public assistance programs. Undocumented immigrants are excluded from all federal public welfare programs.[12] The only assistance they may receive is medical attention in the emergency room.
3. Answer B: Undocumented immigrants have played an integral role in financing Social Security as the U.S. population ages. A study in 2005 found that undocumented immigrants pay HOW MUCH in Social Security taxes that they will never be able to claim?[13]
4. Answer C: With no official record-keeping system, the exact number of illegal entrants who have died along the Arizona stretch of U.S.-Mexican border has never been known. In the summer of 2004, the Arizona Daily Star started compiling border deaths recorded by the Pima, Santa Cruz, Cochise and Yuma County medical examiners in an effort to present an accurate tally of the numbers of people who die crossing into the United States illegally through Southern Arizona. In fiscal year 2007, 237 bodies were found.[14]
5. Answer B: 1.8 million are children.[15] There are approximately 1.3 million children who have lived in the U.S. for five or more years and who were enrolled in K-12 schools in the year 2002.[16]
6. Answer A: Of the undocumented population, approximately 57% come from Mexico, 23% come from the rest of Latin America, 10% come from Asia, 5% come from Europe and Canada, and 5% come from other areas.[17] These statistics reflect many stories – the absence of available visas, U.S. labor market demand, past and present U.S. trade policies, and growing economic disparities between nations.
7. Answer B: Unauthorized immigrants represent 5% of the U.S. labor force.[18]
Much of this labor force participation is concentrated in construction and service sectors.[19] Top economists argue that immigrant labor is vital to our economy and boosts our labor force.[20]
8. Answer D: Due to bureaucratic backlogs and visa limitations, a Lawful Permanent Resident (LPR) trying to bring a spouse or child from Mexico must wait 4-7 years.[21]
Sources
[1] Pew Hispanic Center. “Modes of Entry for the Unauthorized Migrant Population.” May 22, 2006.
[2] Capps, Randy and Fix, Michael. Ündocumented Immigrants: Myths and Reality,¨ Urban Institute and Migration Policy Institute. October 2005.
[3] Cunningham, Peter J. “What Accounts For Differences In The Use Of Hospital Emergency Departments Across U.S. Communities?” Health Affairs. July 18, 2006. Accessed July 2006 from healthaffairs site
[4] Passel et al. “Undocumented Immigrants: Facts and Figures.” Urban Institute. January 12, 2004. Accessed June, 2006 at http://www.urban.org/publications/1000587.html.
[5] Appleseed. “Forcing Our Blues Into Gray Areas: Local Police and Federal Immigration Enforcement.” p. 5. January, 2006. Accessed August, 2006 from: http://appleseeds.net/servlet/PublicationInfo?articleId=70.
[6] Plyler v. Doe, 452 U.S. 202, 223 (1982).
[7] Weissbrodt, David and Danielson, Laura. Immigration Law and Procedure. 5th Edition. Thomson West. 2005. p. 527
[8] Wayne A. Cornelius. “Impacts of Border Enforcement on Unauthorized Mexican Migration to the United States” Sep 26, 2006. Accessed in June 2008 at http://borderbattles.ssrc.org/Cornelius/
[9] Wayne A. Cornelius, Death at the Border: Efficacy and Unintended Consequences of U.S. Immigration Control Policy, 27(4) POPULATION AND DEVELOPMENT REVIEW 669 (2001).
[10] National Network for Immigrant and Refugee Rights. “Immigration Proposal Comparisons: Bush, Sensenbrenner, Specter.” March, 2006. Accessed August, 2006 from: http://www.nnirr.org/projects/immigrationreform/Bush_Sensenbrenner_Specter.pdf#search=
%22wall%2C%20Mexico%2C%20cost%2C%20immigration%22.
[11] Urban Institute. “Children of Undocumented Immigrants.” May 16, 2006. Accessed August, 2006 from: http://www.urban.org/publications/900955.html.
[12] Fix, Michael and Haskins, Ron. ¨Welfare Benefits for Non-citizens.¨ The Brookings Institution. Policy Brief #15. 2002.
[13] Capps, Randy and Fix, Michael. “Undocumented Immigrants: Myths and Reality.” The Urban Institute and the Migration Policy Institute. Oct, 2005. Accessed January 2006 from: http://www.urban.org/publications/900898.html.
[14] “Death on the Border. Arizona Daily Star. Accessed June 2008 from: http://regulus.azstarnet.com/borderdeaths/search.php
[15] “Recently Arrived Migrants and the Congressional Debate on Immigration.” Pew Hispanic Center. April, 2006.
[16] Protopsaltis, Spiros. “Undocumented Immigrant Students and Access to Higher Education: An Overview of Federal and State Policy.” The Bell Policy Center. 2005. Accessed Feb. 06 from: http://www.thebell.org/pdf/UndocumentedStudents_HigherEd.pdf.
[17] “Undocumented Immigrants: Facts and Figures.” Urban Institute. January 2004. Accessed June, 2006 at http://www.urban.org/publications/1000587.html.
[18] Passel et al. “Undocumented Immigrants: Facts and Figures.” Urban Institute. January 12, 2004. Accessed June, 2006 at http://www.urban.org/publications/1000587.html.
[19] “The Labor Force Status of Short-Term Unauthorized Workers.” Pew Hispanic Center. April 13, 2006
[20] The Independent Institute. Open Letter on Immigration. June 19, 2006. Accessed July 2006 from: http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1727 and Peri, Giovanni, Ph.D. “Immigrants, Skills, and Wages: Measuring the Economic Gains from Immigration.” Immigration Policy In Focus. Vol. 5, Issue 3. p.4. March 2003.
[21] United States Department of State. “Visa Bulletin.” August 2006. Number 96 Volume VII. Washington D.C. Accessed in July 2006 from http://travel.state.gov/visa/frvi/bulletin/bulletin_2978.html.
"Wall or no wall, I will try at least three times," said Martinez, who said he would try to cross by himself through Tecate, a mountainous town about 35 miles east of Tijuana. "I have three girls that I have to support, and in Mexico there is no work."
good lord im not reading all that, you keep harping on how much it will cost but ignore the fact that we pay billions a year in dealing with the problems that illegal immigrants create.
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good lord im not reading all that, you keep harping on how much it will cost but ignore the fact that we pay billions a year in dealing with the problems that illegal immigrants create.
No I don't ignore the costs. Do you know the billions illegals add to our economy?
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No I don't ignore the costs. Do you know the billions illegals add to our economy?
You seriously think having large numbers of undocumented people in the U.S. is a good thing, Decker? ???
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You seriously think having large numbers of undocumented people in the U.S. is a good thing, Decker? ???
I'm starting to think he's an illegal immigrant with regular access to the internet ;D
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No I don't ignore the costs. Do you know the billions illegals add to our economy?
i agree but those jobs they do can be done by legal citizens could they not? whether those jobs are done by illegals or citizens will still add to the economy but by limiting the illegals it will limit the costs do you not see that?
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I'm starting to think he's an illegal immigrant with regular access to the internet ;D
Shit, some of these illegals make good (tax free) money. He might have a better computer than you or I. ;D
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You seriously think having large numbers of undocumented people in the U.S. is a good thing, Decker? ???
No. It's not fair to the legal immigrants.
The problem is so intertwined with the interests of big business, societal considerations and punitive realities that there is no THE answer.
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No. It's not fair to the legal immigrants.
The problem is so intertwined with the interests of big business, societal considerations and punitive realities that there is no THE answer.
By over-complicating the problem, the result is usually nothing being done and the problem getting worse.
Any time there is a crakdown on illegals, the parade of whiners and sob-stories comes out of the wood work to try to garner sympathy. Sadly, it usually works on liberal do gooders who dont have to live in proximity to this invasion.
Of course there is no one single answer, however, there are many steps to be taken immediately that would greatly curtail the mess we have today.
No. 1 - stop all welfare to illegals.
No. 2. have hospitals treat all illegal aliens but as a condition of accepting state aid, they have to notify ICE when illegals show up for treatment.
No. 3. Severly fine employers caught hiring illegals.
No. 4. The wall and fence.
No. 5. End the anchor baby situation.
This would go a long way.
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By over-complicating the problem, the result is usually nothing being done and the problem getting worse.
Any time there is a crakdown on illegals, the parade of whiners and sob-stories comes out of the wood work to try to garner sympathy. Sadly, it usually works on liberal do gooders who dont have to live in proximity to this invasion.
Of course there is no one single answer, however, there are many steps to be taken immediately that would greatly curtail the mess we have today.
No. 1 - stop all welfare to illegals.
No. 2. have hospitals treat all illegal aliens but as a condition of accepting state aid, they have to notify ICE when illegals show up for treatment.
No. 3. Severly fine employers caught hiring illegals.
No. 4. The wall and fence.
No. 5. End the anchor baby situation.
This would go a long way.
I agree with the INS sweeps and fines but Big Business has a strong lobby and those fines would be shut down.
I think I've given this topic enough. Illegal immigration is just not that big a deal.
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I agree with the INS sweeps and fines but Big Business has a strong lobby and those fines would be shut down.
I think I've given this topic enough. Illegal immigration is just not that big a deal.
Maybe to you. Everyday on the drive to work I get to see hundreds of these people lined up and down the streets resembling Mexico City.
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I agree with the INS sweeps and fines but Big Business has a strong lobby and those fines would be shut down.
I think I've given this topic enough. Illegal immigration is just not that big a deal.
It's a shame you think that...illegal immigration is a big deal. It is another major problem that nobody wants to do what is necessary to fix.
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By over-complicating the problem, the result is usually nothing being done and the problem getting worse.
Any time there is a crakdown on illegals, the parade of whiners and sob-stories comes out of the wood work to try to garner sympathy. Sadly, it usually works on liberal do gooders who dont have to live in proximity to this invasion.
Of course there is no one single answer, however, there are many steps to be taken immediately that would greatly curtail the mess we have today.
No. 1 - stop all welfare to illegals.
No. 2. have hospitals treat all illegal aliens but as a condition of accepting state aid, they have to notify ICE when illegals show up for treatment.
No. 3. Severly fine employers caught hiring illegals.
No. 4. The wall and fence.
No. 5. End the anchor baby situation.
This would go a long way.
I think I could co-sign this. Just add on that when illegals are found, they should be given 48 hours to pack up their shit before deportation.
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Ending public payments to illegals is the most effective step. These 3rd worlders have financially broken California.
Anyone think it's strange that a household of 8-10, incliding 6 kids can live on a couple minimum wage jobs? People from foreign lands actually come here just to have kids and go on various welfare programs.
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Even Canada doesn't allow anchor babies for illegal immigrants.
Just because a form is available doesn't mean immigrants actually fill it out! Not to mention ID fraud because of the amount of fake SS cards floating around.
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The big problem nowadays is that people don't have to prove anything to get public welfare. It's true that illegals can't apply for most welfare handouts, but all they have to do to beat the system is not do anything in terms of proving their identity.
When an illegal gets a job, they present a Social Security card. Even if it's fake you (the employer) has to take it. It takes 6 F*ING MONTHS for the government to do anything about seeing if it's real or not, and even then the illegal has 90 days to reply. If they don't respond (and I'd imagine 100% do not) they get another letter, etc., etc.
When it comes down to 'brass tacks', they buy another card off the black market and start the process all over again....
There is so much identity fraud in this country it's unbelievable.
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The big problem nowadays is that people don't have to prove anything to get public welfare. It's true that illegals can't apply for most welfare handouts, but all they have to do to beat the system is not do anything in terms of proving their identity.
When an illegal gets a job, they present a Social Security card. Even if it's fake you (the employer) has to take it. It takes 6 F*ING MONTHS for the government to do anything about seeing if it's real or not, and even then the illegal has 90 days to reply. If they don't respond (and I'd imagine 100% do not) they get another letter, etc., etc.
When it comes down to 'brass tacks', they buy another card off the black market and start the process all over again....
There is so much identity fraud in this country it's unbelievable.
If the government really wanted they could get rid of them in a couple of months...too bad they don't. :-\
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If the government really wanted they could get rid of them in a couple of months...too bad they don't. :-\
Funny how Visa can make a hologram, data-encrypted high-tech card, and the US Government can only come up with a typed ID card on cheap paper.....
I could go make 1000 fake SS cards right now on my desktop that would pass muster....
Something funny about that....
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Funny how Visa can make a hologram, data-encrypted high-tech card, and the US Government can only come up with a typed ID card on cheap paper.....
I could go make 1000 fake SS cards right now on my desktop that would pass muster....
Something funny about that....
They dont want to fix it!
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They dont want to fix it!
Bingo.
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333386, I would agree with that program as well. I'd also like to see all criminals deported and a pathway to citizenship (with a fine) for illegals that are here and want to apply.
Decker is right, there is no easy answer the fence alone will not fix our problem. And big business is probably pushing its weight around, as he said. However, illegal immigration is a big issue that can change this country little by little. Not as much as the financial crisis right now, but it is more important than a host of others that come up frequently.
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333386, I would agree with that program as well. I'd also like to see all criminals deported and a pathway to citizenship (with a fine) for illegals that are here and want to apply.
Decker is right, there is no easy answer the fence alone will not fix our problem. And big business is probably pushing its weight around, as he said. However, illegal immigration is a big issue that can change this country little by little. Not as much as the financial crisis right now, but it is more important than a host of others that come up frequently.
Exactly...the illegal immigration problem is a very slow wound that is bleeding. It will eventually kill us if we don't plug it.(So will our foreign and monetary policy for the record) It's like we are getting it from multiple sides and our government won't do a damn thing about any of it. That's what really is bugging me...the bailouts(bullshit), Iraq(bullshit), etc. It's like they all have their heads in the sand about the things that can and are currently hurting our country as a whole.
You know there is some corruption now when local police and municipal courts don't have the power to deport people when they do something wrong.