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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: benchthis on March 12, 2009, 11:03:10 PM
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any ideas >:( >:( >:( >:(
i tried everything... H.I.T, High volume, heavy laterals, light laterals high reps, heavy presses, light presses high reps.
please helppppppppppppppppppppp pppppppppppppppppp
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o and i seem to have to same problem for arms >:(
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Sometimes lack of growth in areas like shoulders and arms comes from too much specialization and attention. I would consider doing the bare minimum for these two areas for two months and than try a specialization for them. Give those delts a rest, they get tired.
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Sometimes lack of growth in areas like shoulders and arms comes from too much specialization and attention. I would consider doing the bare minimum for these two areas for two months and than try a specialization for them. Give those delts a rest, they get tired.
I agree i dont think most ppl will get alot of growth from laterals or shoulder raises as it is...presses seemed to work ok for me but i think i got the best shoulder growth when i was doing heavy weighted dips going down deep this will also hit those tris as well.
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small compared to your other bodyparts?........ sounds like genes
ive always been blessed with nice round caps, but i find alot of people neglect reardelts, or train them incorrectly, make sure on all shoulder movements that your feeling the muscle work with nice squeezes.
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Bent over lateral raises
6 x 15
Standing lateral raises
2 x 15 with a 30 second hold halfway at the end of set
3 x 15 then front raises with same dbs for 10 then upright rows for 15 with those dbs, no rest.
Push press
4-6 x 8
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any ideas >:( >:( >:( >:(
i tried everything... H.I.T, High volume, heavy laterals, light laterals high reps, heavy presses, light presses high reps.
please helppppppppppppppppppppp pppppppppppppppppp
sounds like genetics.... :(
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Lat's and Tony'mc give good advice. Back off a bit on shoulders, or better still take a couple weeks off of any direct delt exercise. On returning to serious shoulder work, be more selective of the exercises you use for the delts, staying away from the extensions type movements like lateral raises, with either a DB or cable. and use only push/ pull movements. You will not need a lot of exercises to build shoulder mass.
Consider the push press, as Get-R mentioned. This is where the bar is positioned mostly on the heel of the hand (thumbless), rather than the palms with the normal thumb wrap around. The bar is more inline with the wrist and forearm, giving better leverage and direct power to the lift. Some heavy benchers do this version, from time to time.
All BB presses are best done on a power rack, just my view. Start the reps with a slight knee jerk and really focus on the push. Jerk presses (which require much more body English), the PBN, upright rows and Hi-pills are all great compound shoulder exercises. Include DB presses, and even DB side press (not for everyone), as considerations also.
My present workout includes the front press SS'ed with the PBN (press behind the neck).... 2X6-9 reps. Followed by upright rows (medium grip) SS'ed with heavy lateral raises ...2X6-9 reps.
A advanced version of lateral raises is the power version. Doing one arm at a time, while gripping something solid like a piece of equipment, post, etc. Start by slightly swinging, with elbows bent a bit (your cheating big time..but than again, so what?), the DB up to at least shoulder height (anything above shoulder level, the traps come into play more) and try to control the lowering of it. Get something like a positive/negative rep this way. Very effective for some. Seen 80-100's used in regular workouts. Good Luck.
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Have this same problem man. My chest bets bigger, but I lack any real width to my body so i feel so unproportional. I hate it more than anything.
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heavy ass front presses, heavy ass laterals, heavy ass barbellius shrugius.
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heres what i did today
smith machine bb press-
empty bar about 50 or so reps just to get a good feel
1 plate per side about 8 reps
1 plate and a quarter per side about 8 reps
3 sets with 2 plates per side about 8 reps each set
db press-
80lb bout 10 reps
95lb three sets bout 10 reps
smith machine behind neck press-
1 plate per side 3 sets bout 12 reps
upright rows-
135 for 4 sets bout 10 reps
machine side laterals-
half staCK BOUT 6 REPS
full stack 3 sets bout 10 reps
cable single arm side laterals
40 lbs two sets bout 8 reps
60 lbs two sets bout 10 reps
upright rows on the pulley with ez curl attachment -
full stack bout 6 reps
db side laterals-
30lb 3 sets bout 12 reps
super set upright rows with 30lbs then 25lbs (side laterals)..done to failure
rear delts on the cables both arms at same time corssing over with it on the top notch-
40 lbs 5 sets bout 10 reps
i just tallied it up... thats 35 sets. volume works good for shoulders, at least for me. :)
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Holy shit dude. Do you do all that volume fo other bodyparts too?
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The best improvements I ever made were with reasonable volume, using giant sets.
Start with seated barbell press - 4 sets of 12/10/8/8, just to get the blood flowing, then:
Giant set:
Dumbell front raises x 12,
Barbell front raises x10,
Dumbell side laterals x 12,
Upright rows x 10,
Dumbell rear laterals x 12,
Behind back upright rows x 10.
Rest 2 mins then do it all again, for 3 cycles.
Then finish with seated barbell press - 3 sets of 15.
Might not work for everyone, but I did this for about 6 weeks and I saw quite noticeable results.
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The best improvements I ever made were with reasonable volume, using giant sets.
Start with seated barbell press - 4 sets of 12/10/8/8, just to get the blood flowing, then:
Giant set:
Dumbell front raises x 12,
Barbell front raises x10,
Dumbell side laterals x 12,
Upright rows x 10,
Dumbell rear laterals x 12,
Behind back upright rows x 10.
Rest 2 mins then do it all again, for 3 cycles.
Then finish with seated barbell press - 3 sets of 15.
Might not work for everyone, but I did this for about 6 weeks and I saw quite noticeable results.
can't even imagine the bone crushing poundage you must have been using on that program. ::)
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my shoulders tend to get sore relatively easy so i like to do a week on and a week off...high intesity...but it may be a gentic thing too as mentioned in the previous threads
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heres what i did today
smith machine bb press-
empty bar about 50 or so reps just to get a good feel
1 plate per side about 8 reps
1 plate and a quarter per side about 8 reps
3 sets with 2 plates per side about 8 reps each set
db press-
80lb bout 10 reps
95lb three sets bout 10 reps
smith machine behind neck press-
1 plate per side 3 sets bout 12 reps
upright rows-
135 for 4 sets bout 10 reps
machine side laterals-
half staCK BOUT 6 REPS
full stack 3 sets bout 10 reps
cable single arm side laterals
40 lbs two sets bout 8 reps
60 lbs two sets bout 10 reps
upright rows on the pulley with ez curl attachment -
full stack bout 6 reps
db side laterals-
30lb 3 sets bout 12 reps
super set upright rows with 30lbs then 25lbs (side laterals)..done to failure
rear delts on the cables both arms at same time corssing over with it on the top notch-
40 lbs 5 sets bout 10 reps
i just tallied it up... thats 35 sets. volume works good for shoulders, at least for me. :)
Damn, lots of volume.
An example of a typical Shoulders/Tri day for me consists of:
DB shoulder press- 75 for 12, 85 for 10, 90 for 10, 95 for 8
DB laterals- 30 for 12, 35 for 12, 40 for 10, 40 for 10
Close grip BP- 185 for 12, 225 for 10, 225 for 10
Reverse Pec Dec/rear delts 120 for 15, 130 for 15, 140 for 12, 150 for 12
Seated Tri-Cep ext. machine- 190 for 12, 200 for 10, 210 for 10
DB shrugs-85 for 15, 95 for 15, 105 for 12, 115 for 12
Pressdowns- 160 for 12, 180 for 12, 200/stack for 12
One arm pressdowns- 50 for 12, 60 for 10, 70 for 10
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can't even imagine the bone crushing poundage you must have been using on that program. ::)
Why would I be using 'bone crushing poundage' on a routine that's blatantly designed around volume, to build a pump? It worked for me, so it could work for others.
Oh yeah, and ::)
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Why would I be using 'bone crushing poundage' on a routine that's blatantly designed around volume, to build a pump? It worked for me, so it could work for others.
Oh yeah, and ::)
translation= you're weaker than a kitten and instead of trying to get stronger on barbell militaries you tell yourself 6 million sets of lateral raises are better. :D
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heres what i did today
smith machine bb press-
empty bar about 50 or so reps just to get a good feel
1 plate per side about 8 reps
1 plate and a quarter per side about 8 reps
3 sets with 2 plates per side about 8 reps each set
db press-
80lb bout 10 reps
95lb three sets bout 10 reps
smith machine behind neck press-
1 plate per side 3 sets bout 12 reps
upright rows-
135 for 4 sets bout 10 reps
machine side laterals-
half staCK BOUT 6 REPS
full stack 3 sets bout 10 reps
cable single arm side laterals
40 lbs two sets bout 8 reps
60 lbs two sets bout 10 reps
upright rows on the pulley with ez curl attachment -
full stack bout 6 reps
db side laterals-
30lb 3 sets bout 12 reps
super set upright rows with 30lbs then 25lbs (side laterals)..done to failure
rear delts on the cables both arms at same time corssing over with it on the top notch-
40 lbs 5 sets bout 10 reps
i just tallied it up... thats 35 sets. volume works good for shoulders, at least for me. :)
Doing more work than necessary in my eyes.
Could be achieved in half by training clever, but if it works for you then that's fine too
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Holy shit dude. Do you do all that volume fo other bodyparts too?
Doing more work than necessary in my eyes.
Could be achieved in half by training clever, but if it works for you then that's fine too
my body responds to volume and frequency. the more i train and the more often i train, the better results get. ive tried mike mentzer h.i.t. and doggcrapp b4 for extended periods of time. i tried it all. for me, i get in the gym and go to town untill im so weak i cant do baby weights for reps even after a 3 minute rest.
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translation= you're weaker than a kitten and instead of trying to get stronger on barbell militaries you tell yourself 6 million sets of lateral raises are better. :D
You need to read the posts sometimes. I said I used this routine for 6 weeks, and it gave me the best results I've had for my delts. I've used military's for 6 years now, made nice progress and increased my strength at the same time, but when I want to surprise my delts again, I go back to this routine.
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Pre-Exhaust Superset:
{Laterals Behind Back: 4 x 10-12 (very strict, no swinging or heaving)
{Bradford Presses: 4 x 8-10 (seated or standing)
E-Z Bar Front Raise: 3 x 10-15
Superset:
{Bent-Over DB Laterals or Incline Rear Delt Raise: (alternate from workout to workout) 3 x 12-15
{Face-Pulls: 3 x 15-20
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I think my shoulders are great and i'm natural. My routine, which rarely changes is as follows:
1. DB presses-- bench shouldn't be 90 degrees, but a little greater, like 100 degrees to hit a little bit more of the front delts.
work up to as heavy as you can for 3 sets of 8. (make sure you do 3 sets of lighter, higher rep sets first.
Then do 2 sets of this: Lighter weight half reps (bottom half of rep, do reps as fast as you can) for 15. Drop weight and wait 15 secs. Then pop the DB's back up, do another 15 quick halves. Do two sets of these.
2. "Bowlers"-- sit in the same 100 degree bench, and do single arm laterals... the movement looks like you are "bowling" sitting down. Great for the front delts. 4 sets. Form is key here.. focus on the fronts/tie-in area. Don't get sloppy on these, and use about a 15 dgree bend in your arm. Think bowling.
3. Seated side delts--- one are at a time. I do a lot of sets of these, followed by some lighter paused-type reps.
4. Seated side delt machine-- you know this good ole machine. High reps/low reps both.
5. Rear delts--bent db flys.
Shoulders are more about the burn that anything. Paused sets are great too (pausing at contraction).
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I did shoulders 1 week ago and performed the following exercises:
3 sets db side laterals....... 20x12 30x10 40x10 45x8
3 sets bent over laterals.......20x12 30x10 40x10 50x6
2 sets hammer shoulder press 3 platesx6 2 platesx10
2 sets bodymasters machine side laterals (seated)
70x 15 110x 12 these two sets were done in drop set fashion.
I thought about adding in shrugs but I decided to do the treadmill for 25 minutes
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If you are really having trouble with your shoulders, I would do nothing but seated db presses until you have reached a decent level of mass and strength.
Then and only then, worry about medial delts and rear delts...... just my opinion.
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If you are really having trouble with your shoulders, I would do nothing but seated db presses until you have reached a decent level of mass and strength.
Then and only then, worry about medial delts and rear delts...... just my opinion.
I agree. DB presses just add that size.
Also try seated push presses off a rack. Put the pins at about shoulder level and do the presses from the front.
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I don't agree that ONE exercise in particular will always do it, because there are several great ones. What you want to do is be open tolong-term trial & error of different exercises and different routines, such as some of the good uns listed here-nice job boys!
Before concluding there are genetic limiations you have to try all sorts of possibilities to see what might unlock unrealized potential-this summer i got some new triceps development after many years, by doing something different.
My prescription: take 2 or 3 of your most effective exercises for a chosen part of delts and do 3-5 superset or triset cycles, with about 1.5 minutes between sets. Overload em-the focus in doing them should be on seeing improvements in reps, weights or reduced rest times between sets. Giant sets that were already mentioned are a similar idea taken to great extremes.
As someone said, when it comes to delts it's about burn. They're dense muscles and can take a lot of sustained work, should be fried. I'd applied that to any muscle though.
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Pre-Exhaust Superset:
{Laterals Behind Back: 4 x 10-12 (very strict, no swinging or heaving)
{Bradford Presses: 4 x 8-10 (seated or standing)
E-Z Bar Front Raise: 3 x 10-15
Superset:
{Bent-Over DB Laterals or Incline Rear Delt Raise: (alternate from workout to workout) 3 x 12-15
{Face-Pulls: 3 x 15-20
I used a pre exhaustion set up like this that did a world of good to bring my shoulders up to par. Now they are a strong point for me, give em a whirl!
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I'm guessing that in addition to your delts not growing, that you also have a hard time getting a good "feel" to them while training and getting a good pump in the delts. What you probably need to work on first and foremost is to develop a good mind/muscle connection with your delt muscles. Once you've developed this, then things such as mass and strength should increase for you.
To develop a good mind/muscle connection, I believe you should try a couple of things. Do some good warm-ups and stretching before you hit the weights, then go into a light set of high reps of side laterals then the same for rear laterals. Then pyramid up in weight over 3 sets with either seated dumbell presses or barbell military presses. THEN go into your heavy sets.
When training delts or any bodypart for that matter, you need to squeeze the hell out of them -- don't just go through the motions of the exercise and feel that because you went to positive failure that you got the most out of that set. Even before I start a set of let's say military presses, I've got my delts, arms, traps, lower back and abs, legs, feet planted firmly on the floor, and hands (squeezing the bar like crazy) squeezed and flexed, THEN I start the set and maintain this squeeze throughout the entire set.
I'm assuming you're a natural trainer like I am, so don't go overboard with your total number of sets for delts. But, like others have said in this thread, don't do too little either since the delts are very dense muscles and need a little bit extra volume to get the job done. For myself, I do a total of 11 to 12 sets; depending on how I'm feeling it that day.
Eat 7 times a day CONSISTENTLY and get enough rest, and you should see some results in a few months (be patient).
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any ideas >:( >:( >:( >:(
i tried everything... H.I.T, High volume, heavy laterals, light laterals high reps, heavy presses, light presses high reps.
please helppppppppppppppppppppp pppppppppppppppppp
i used to have very narrow shoulders, but i broaden them by desperately training relentlessly every alternate days with every technique/routines available, from low volume to high volume, from heavy presses to 100 reps lateral raises etc, super setting, negatives etc, eventually things worked out for me...took me a long time though :-\
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I'd say ditch the direct shoulder work for a week or so (maybe two).
The delts are involved during pec and tri days, I don't know what your splits are but it's easy to overwork smaller muscle groups
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I'd say ditch the direct shoulder work for a week or so (maybe two).
The delts are involved during pec and tri days, I don't know what your splits are but it's easy to overwork smaller muscle groups
shoulders
legs (quads)
chest
back
legs (hams)
arms
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i tried doing shoulders years ago in the start of the week and did not like it. like you i was doing chest later on in the week. i feel the delts get overworked in that fashion.
id either train the delts together or train chest earlier in the week and delts two to three days after.
Im not sure your current routine but here is a example of two of my routines.
workout one
seated dumbell presses 10-8-6-4
standing side raises 10-8
standing rear raises 10-10
standing dumbell shrugs 10-10
workout two
seated barbell presses 10-8-6-4
seated one arm side raises 10-8
seated rear raises 10-8
seated dumbell shrugs 10-10
my shoulder responded well with less sets and moving my shoulder workout farther from my chest day.
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The best improvements I ever made were with reasonable volume, using giant sets.
Start with seated barbell press - 4 sets of 12/10/8/8, just to get the blood flowing, then:
Giant set:
Dumbell front raises x 12,
Barbell front raises x10,
Dumbell side laterals x 12,
Upright rows x 10,
Dumbell rear laterals x 12,
Behind back upright rows x 10.
Rest 2 mins then do it all again, for 3 cycles.
Then finish with seated barbell press - 3 sets of 15.
Might not work for everyone, but I did this for about 6 weeks and I saw quite noticeable results.
This would be a good switch-up but I'd probably have to go really light because I think my shoulders would die!
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This would be a good switch-up but I'd probably have to go really light because I think my shoulders would die!
It was a good routine. Yeah, the poundages weren't great, especially towards the end of the third cycle when your delts are burning like hell! But like I said, I could see the difference within weeks. I'll be using this again in a couple of months time.
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i know this is an old thread but anyone who has trouble getting their shoulders to grow: try seated heavy arnold presses. mastering arnold presses got my shoulders huge. try doing massive drop sets. arnold talks about 'running the rack' in the encyclopedia which is starting with the heaviest weight you can press doing as many as you can, dropping 10 or 20 pounds, doing that as many times as you can, drop the weight etc. until you get down to a really light weight such as 30 lb dumbbells.