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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: BayGBM on April 07, 2009, 07:17:58 AM
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Do you support gay adoption? In an ideal world, orphaned children in the USA and abroad would be raised by their biological parents, but natural death, poverty, disease, and war, have created more than 100 million orphans around the world! Most of these children will lead lives of utter misery (if they are lucky). The rest will die premature deaths.
In another thread http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=20939.msg2991700#msg2991700 I suggested that there is a correlation between children who need homes and potential gay parents who want to adopt. These parents have the means to raise a family, but do not adopt because society has made it too difficult with laws, religious views, and other hurdles that are enough to discourage them. Instead these potential parents forget about adoption entirely or they bend over backwards to have their own kids via surrogacy, sperm banks, etc.
What would you say to an orphaned child across the globe (whose entire family or country may not share your religious views) about why should they should face life in foster care, an orphanage, misery, or death rather than be adopted into a gay or lesbian household?
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anyone that doesn't support gay adoption should not oppose abortion.
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anyone that doesn't support gay adoption should not oppose abortion.
That's your opinion.
If somebody opposes abortion and homosexuality for religious reasons, that person would naturally also oppose gay adoptions. To this person, neither abortion nor gay adoption is good for the child.
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anyone that doesn't support gay adoption should not oppose abortion.
Great Post.
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Do you support gay adoption? In an ideal world, orphaned children in the USA and abroad would be raised by their biological parents, but natural death, poverty, disease, and war, have created more than 100 million orphans around the world! Most of these children will lead lives of utter misery (if they are lucky). The rest will die premature deaths.
In another thread http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=20939.msg2991700#msg2991700 I suggested that there is a correlation between children who need homes and potential gay parents who want to adopt. These parents have the means to raise a family, but do not adopt because society has made it too difficult with laws, religious views, and other hurdles that are enough to discourage them. Instead these potential parents forget about adoption entirely or they bend over backwards to have their own kids via surrogacy, sperm banks, etc.
They could just bite the bullet and have babies the old-fashioned way. Some "lesbians" have resorted to that.
What would you say to an orphaned child across the globe (whose entire family or country may not sure your religious views) about why should they should face life in foster care, an orphanage, misery, or death rather than be adopted into a gay or lesbian household?
Loco put it quite nicely. If somebody opposes abortion and homosexuality for religious reasons, that somebody would want what was best for that child (that, of course, would a home with a MOM and a DAD).
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I'm on the fence about gay adoption because current laws don't adequately protect traditional couple's rights. Throwing same-sex couples into the mix before getting the laws fixed makes no sense.
People who oppose gay adoption are generally accused of being bigoted or advancing the idea that every gay is a potential child molester.
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I'm on the fence about gay adoption because current laws don't adequately protect traditional couple's rights. Throwing same-sex couples into the mix before getting the laws fixed makes no sense.
There are a growing number of cases, about same-sex couples with kids, involving custody battles. The most famous to date is one involving a woman named Lisa Miller. Bascially, she and her lesbian buddy got a civil union in Vermont and Miller had a baby, via artificial insemination. Both are residents of Virginia.
Miller became a Christian and, citing (among other reasons) abuse in the relationship, the civil union got dissolved. The other woman, Janet Jenkins, has no adoption or any legal tie to the child. Yet, Vermont ordered that they share custody. But, that clashes with Virginia's law that only recognizes marriage between a man and a woman and (as of 2006) enforces no court order or statute, based on gay "marriage" or a civil union.
Throw in the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) that says no state has to recognize gay "marriage" or a civil union from another state, and you have yet more legal issues in the mix.
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People who oppose gay adoption are generally accused of being bigoted or advancing the idea that every gay is a potential child molester.
As Loco pointed out, a Christian person is going to oppose gay adoption because God views the act (homosexuality) as sinful. As a Christian, I am also opposed to a liar, thief, adultery, fornicator or any sinful person adopting a child. The Bible teaches us that we are to train our kids in the way of the Lord. How can we do this if we knowingly sin ourselves?
I quote you Drkaje because I hear this all the time. I am told that I have homophobia, and that I am a bigot. I do not fear the idea of homosexuality. In fact, I respect anyone's decision to chose that lifestyle. However, that does not mean that I will ignore the fact that God says it is a sin.
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As long as they can be good parents, i'm fine with it. I'm also for gay marriage.
I also believe that we should fix our own "house" before going abroad and fixing theirs.
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My concern is that a child thats being braught up by a couple of fags will grow up to be a fag themself.
Since children are molded by their environment/ upbringing, I would have a huge concern about my kids going to a school and mixing with other kids that are being braught up as fags.
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My concern is that a child thats being braught up by a couple of fags will grow up to be a fag themself.
Since children are molded by their environment/ upbringing, I would have a huge concern about my kids going to a school and mixing with other kids that are being braught up as fags.
I would have a huge concern about my kids being around you.
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I would have a huge concern about my kids being around you.
Why, are they fags?
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My concern is that a child thats being braught up by a couple of fags will grow up to be a fag themself.
Since children are molded by their environment/ upbringing, I would have a huge concern about my kids going to a school and mixing with other kids that are being braught up as fags.
There's no evidence to support the idea that children raised by gays are any gayer than the typical 10%.
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Too Old for Foster Care, and Facing the Recession
By JULIE BOSMAN
Even in boom times, young people who become too old for the foster-care system often struggle to make it on their own, lacking families, job skills or adequate educations. Now, the recession has made the challenges of life after foster care even more formidable, especially for those seeking federal housing vouchers, which are contingent on having an income.
Since the beginning of this year, the city’s Administration for Children’s Services has been providing letters to those about to leave the foster care system, certifying that they are likely to be eligible for public assistance and thus easing the application process when they are ready. Yet, many child-welfare advocates worry that a growing number will still end up homeless.
“They get a lot of resources until they’re 21, and then essentially none,” said James J. Golden, the executive director of the Edwin Gould Academy in East Harlem, which provides housing exclusively to former foster children. “It’s like falling off a cliff for some of them.”
In New York, foster children are allowed to leave the system when they turn 18 but can stay until 21; last year, 407 wards turned 21, while 547 opted out early — 375 at age 18, and 172 at 19 or 20.
Once discharged from the system, some move in with family or friends, get jobs or go to college. Others apply for welfare as their sole source of income, and often end up homeless.
Administrators at the Chelsea Foyer at the Christopher, which houses dozens of former and current foster youths, said that typically, 90 percent of their residents were employed, but that in February only 70 percent had jobs.
“They are the low man on the totem pole for jobs anyway,” said Jerome Kilbane, the executive director of Covenant House New York, a nonprofit that operates shelters for young people. “Now they are even more at a disadvantage.”
Michael Smith, 20, said he was increasingly anxious as he approached the day in August that he will have to leave his foster home in Brooklyn. He has been searching for work since October, leaving résumés at places like McDonald’s and the clothing stores Express and H & M.
Mr. Smith graduated from high school in Queens in 2006 and went to Kingsborough Community College, but he dropped out after his sickle-cell anemia caused him to miss class frequently.
“I’m coming up to my 21st birthday, when I’m no longer going to be supported,” Mr. Smith said. “I feel overlooked all the times I do go apply for these jobs. But I have to do this, or else I’ll be out on the street.”
Officials at the Administration for Children’s Services say they do everything possible to avert that, including the letters that help smooth the application process for public assistance.
The child-welfare agency and the 36 foster-care groups with which it contracts begin to prepare children for independence as early as age 14. There are workshops on budgeting, job hunting, how to sign up for health insurance and how to negotiate with a landlord over rent.
At age 19, foster youths begin to talk to caseworkers about housing options, which commonly include Section 8 vouchers, public housing projects and supportive housing, where counseling and job training might be available on site.
The Administration for Children’s Services provides a one-time stipend of $750 as a cushion to foster youths when they exit the system. They are also eligible for a monthly payment of $300 from the city, from the time the leave foster care until they are 21 ½, if they are not receiving any other public housing subsidy, such as Section 8.
Most of those leaving foster care are entitled to Section 8, which typically allows tenants to rent apartments for one-third of their monthly income. But that means they need income to qualify. And with unemployment rates in New York rising precipitously, foster-care workers are worried.
“To be honest, I’m afraid that our youth are really going to be unable to secure housing,” said Jane Feyder, the assistant director at the New York Foundling Fontana Center for Child Protection. “They don’t have the work experience that other people have who are looking for jobs right now. They’re competing with so many other people who have advantages over them.”
Even advocates for foster youth acknowledge that they are a particularly difficult group to employ.
Many lack high school diplomas, having spent adolescence being shuttled from home to home. The responsibilities of a first job can come as a shock, and many quit out of frustration.
“A year ago, if they’d lose one $9- an-hour job, there was usually another one that we could find them,” Mr. Golden said. “Now it’s a little more costly to become unemployed.”
One of the former foster children in his care, Jessica Molina, landed a job in January 2008, working in computer technology at Merrill Lynch. She was laid off in June when the company downsized, and has been working at temporary jobs since.
“Like everyone else, I have my fingers crossed that I’ll find something,” Ms. Molina, 22, said. But looking at the gaps in her résumé, she is often reminded of the constant moves between group homes she endured during her teenage years. “Sometimes you’re looked at as a castaway,” she said. “It’s like coming from a totally different place.”
Brenda Tully, the program director for Chelsea Foyer at the Christopher, said residents have been laid off or seen their hours reduced at jobs in gyms, nightclubs and clothing stores.
“There’s a much greater fear among the young people about what to expect,” Ms. Tully said. “They are very, very concerned that they’re not going to be able to find housing that’s affordable.”
Stephany Diaz, a housing specialist for New York Foundling, one of the city’s largest foster-care agencies, said she has begun prodding youths to apply for public assistance once they are officially discharged from care.
“I used to discourage them to go down that route,” she said. “But now we almost have to.”
Since 2002, the Administration for Children’s Services has tried to move teenagers out of group homes and into foster care, hoping that when the time comes to leave, the children would have families to turn to.
“We want children to leave care with a loving, caring and supportive adult who’s going to continue to work with them long past their 21st birthday,” said Lorraine Stephens, a deputy commissioner at the Administration for Children’s Services. “We don’t want any kid to leave without someone connected to them.”
But many children have tenuous connections to foster families, at best.
Mr. Smith, whose aunt is his foster parent, said staying with her after his 21st birthday is not an option. “She’s moving in with her boyfriend,” he said.
Melissa Diaz, 19, left the foster care system more than a year ago, shortly after her foster mother died. Ms. Diaz later moved to Covenant House, and after nearly three months of searching found a job stocking shelves at Duane Reade.
She is training to become a nursing assistant and trying to earn enough money to become independent and afford housing on her own. “That would be great,” she said. “It would be a blessing from God.”
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There's no evidence to support the idea that children raised by gays are any gayer than the typical 10%.
You're extreme naive thinking that homosexual parents wont raise their adopted children to be like them.
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Takes a Male and a Female to produce a child, doesn't it make sense that it would take a Male and Female to raise a child w/the attributes a Male and Female have to offer.
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Bay, not many people are stupid enough to not see through your whole "legalize gay marriage/parenting for the poor refugees/homeless kids" BS.
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As Loco pointed out, a Christian person is going to oppose gay adoption because God views the act (homosexuality) as sinful. As a Christian, I am also opposed to a liar, thief, adultery, fornicator or any sinful person adopting a child. The Bible teaches us that we are to train our kids in the way of the Lord. How can we do this if we knowingly sin ourselves?
I quote you Drkaje because I hear this all the time. I am told that I have homophobia, and that I am a bigot. I do not fear the idea of homosexuality. In fact, I respect anyone's decision to chose that lifestyle. However, that does not mean that I will ignore the fact that God says it is a sin.
It's not a choice; did you wake up one day and on the whim of a coin toss decide to like women? ::)
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Why, are they fags?
I see your true colours shining through...
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It's not a choice; did you wake up one day and on the whim of a coin toss decide to like women? ::)
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You're extreme naive thinking that homosexual parents wont raise their adopted children to be like them.
I'm just not one to confuse opinion with fact.
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Do you support gay adoption? In an ideal world, orphaned children in the USA and abroad would be raised by their biological parents....
Something tells me you don't quite grasp the meaning of the word "orphaned"!
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fact is that nature and nuture go in to the development of ppl...you really think a person who grows up in an entirely homosexual world will turn out to be straight? truth is if thats all they knew they would probably turn out to be gay. Being homosexual is not an entirely genetic issue it also has a choice component to it. We all have the capacity to be homosexuals, look at jail populations a good number of ppl who take place in gay sex acts in jail havent before hand or go back to being straight outside. The studies out do show however that children raised by gays do grow up to be well adjusted ppl in around the same % as if raised by straights, and not a abnormal % being gay. I think this could change though when being homosexual becomes much more socially acceptable i wouldnt be suprised to see the % of children reared by gays be gay raise.
Short story long no im not for gay adoption
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Why, are they fags?
It's grow up time ... and you're late.
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It's not a choice; did you wake up one day and on the whim of a coin toss decide to like women? ::)
Actually I somewhat agree with you. There are many gays who are born that way....yep, my Christian brothers and sisters, I said that! For those who are born gay, it is as natural for them to be with the same sex as it is for me (a man) to be with a woman. Where I vehemently disagree with you is that God did not have a hand in them being born that way. Why would God create something that He has identified as sinful? You may ask what sin can a person who is yet to be born commit. As it has been talked about in other threads, there are things that our ancestors can do that will cause generational curses. Most people will readily accept the fact that something like cancer can be passed from one generation to the next. In many cases, homosexuality is nothing more than sin being passed on. To understand this, one must know that sin and sickness are not of God. If one believes the Bible to be true, he or she must acknowledge homosexuality is sinful.
I say that I somewhat agree with you because there are many folks who do decide on whim to practice homosexuality. With women, it is almost to the point whereby it is cool to have "experimented." Before you blast me with how much a bigot, closed-minded or delusional, I say you should rest easy. The time is coming when homosexuality will be widely accepted. I think many people would be shock at how many people are in the closet. However, it still will not change the fact that God has called it sinful.
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Any studies been done on gay parents and the frequency at which their children end up being gay?
Cause all i see is tainted opinions here.
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Any studies been done on gay parents and the frequency at which their children end up being gay?
Cause all i see is tainted opinions here.
Ozmo Kramer, the assman
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Any studies been done on gay parents and the frequency at which their children end up being gay?
Cause all i see is tainted opinions here.
the majority of studies show that gay parents dont produce a abnormally different % of gays then seen by traditional parents. That being said like i stated i wouldnt be suprised to see that number change as homosexuality become more accepted.
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The idea that being homosexual is a 100% genetic trait is ignorant, some ppl may have a genetic predisposition to being gay but that doesnt mean that those ppl dont choose to follow that. I may have a genetic predisposition to being more violent then others does that make it ok for me to be violent? of course not b/c you are taught thats not ok, the more and more ppl are taught being gay is ok the higher the number will go...get it.
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Ozmo Kramer, the assman
isn't it Cosmo?
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the majority of studies show that gay parents dont produce a abnormally different % of gays then seen by traditional parents. That being said like i stated i wouldnt be suprised to see that number change as homosexuality become more accepted.
Homosexuality it pretty well accepted now. At least it is in California. At the High Schools students are openly gay. I think if there's an increase it's because people are more comfortable coming out of the closet.
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Homosexuality it pretty well accepted now. At least it is in California. At the High Schools students are openly gay. I think if there's an increase it's because people are more comfortable coming out of the closet.
I know, this sucks. Let's get back to repressing them already.
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Homosexuality it pretty well accepted now. At least it is in California. At the High Schools students are openly gay. I think if there's an increase it's because people are more comfortable coming out of the closet.
Homosexuality is not well accepted now it is tolerated now theres a big difference, if it was accepted gays would be marrying and adopting everywhere now. Thats fine thats your opinion and i have mine fact of the matter is though that being gay isnt 100% genetic and anything that pushes someone to be gay in my mind is wrong. I feel as though being raised by gay parents in a society that is openly approving of gays will lead to a rise in % of children reared by gays to be gay so of course im not for it.
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Homosexuality it pretty well accepted now. At least it is in California. At the High Schools students are openly gay. I think if there's an increase it's because people are more comfortable coming out of the closet.
perhaps i should have said approving instead of accepting
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Actually I somewhat agree with you. There are many gays who are born that way....yep, my Christian brothers and sisters, I said that! For those who are born gay, it is as natural for them to be with the same sex as it is for me (a man) to be with a woman. Where I vehemently disagree with you is that God did not have a hand in them being born that way. Why would God create something that He has identified as sinful? You may ask what sin can a person who is yet to be born commit. As it has been talked about in other threads, there are things that our ancestors can do that will cause generational curses. Most people will readily accept the fact that something like cancer can be passed from one generation to the next. In many cases, homosexuality is nothing more than sin being passed on. To understand this, one must know that sin and sickness are not of God. If one believes the Bible to be true, he or she must acknowledge homosexuality is sinful.
I say that I somewhat agree with you because there are many folks who do decide on whim to practice homosexuality. With women, it is almost to the point whereby it is cool to have "experimented." Before you blast me with how much a bigot, closed-minded or delusional, I say you should rest easy. The time is coming when homosexuality will be widely accepted. I think many people would be shock at how many people are in the closet. However, it still will not change the fact that God has called it sinful.
I have expressed my thoughts on this before:
The Bible does not say that being attracted to somebody of the same gender is a sin. It only says that having sex with somebody of the same gender is a sin.
If you applied Christ's teachings on adultery to this, then you could stretch this to saying that according to the Bible, looking at somebody of the same gender with lust is a sin in your heart.
If this is true, then it does not matter whether or not being attracted to somebody of the same gender is genetic. It is not a sin. It is a sin only if you look at somebody of the same gender with lust or if you have sex with somebody of the same gender.
You might ask why would God create people with a desire for somebody of the same gender when it is forbidden for them to have sex with somebody of the same gender?
To that I would say that God created me with a desire to lust after and to have sex with most of the hot women I see, married or single. But God forbids me to look at them with lust or to have sex with them. Even though I have this desire to have sex with them, and even though I may have the opportunity to do so, I don't. I don't because I call myself a Christian and I claim to believe that the Bible is the Word of God and I want to obey it, and because the Holy Spirit gives me both the desire and the power to obey, though I also have the choice to disobey.
You might say that at least I'm allowed by God to marry the woman I choose to and to have sex with her after I marry her, while homosexuals are not allowed by God to marry who they want to marry, another homosexual.
To that I would say that married heterosexual couples don't have sex anyway...just kidding. But seriously, most married men I know, and many women too, are not happy with their sex life. Some of them wish they can divorce so that they can have all the casual sex they want to, but most of them are moral people and only contemplate it, but would never do that.
So I'd say heterosexual Christians face similar, if not the same struggles and temptations as Christians who may be attracted to people of the same gender.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on homosexuality. It's not much different than adultery, fornication, etc.
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Any studies been done on gay parents and the frequency at which their children end up being gay?
Cause all i see is tainted opinions here.
If studies proved that children raised by gay parents end up becoming gay themselves, would that be a reason for you to oppose gay adoptions?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think gay people might be offended by that. To them, there is nothing wrong with children of gay parents growing up to be gay. They probably would be proud of that.
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If studies proved that children raised by gay parents end up becoming gay themselves, would that be a reason for you to oppose gay adoptions?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think gay people might be offended by that. To them, there is nothing wrong with children of gay parents growing up to be gay. They probably would be proud of that.
according to what someone said earlier the rate is similar to children raised by straight parents. No link has be provided yet and I'd be interested to see the study.
As for gay parents being proud of their kids growing up to be gay. I don't think that's the case. The gay parents I know, all single, just want their kids to grow up and be happy, gay or not.
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I have expressed my thoughts on this before:
The Bible does not say that being attracted to somebody of the same gender is a sin. It only says that having sex with somebody of the same gender is a sin.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet (Romans 1:24-27).
Having read this, do you really believe it is permissable to be attracted to the same sex?
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according to what someone said earlier the rate is similar to children raised by straight parents. No link has be provided yet and I'd be interested to see the study.
As for gay parents being proud of their kids growing up to be gay. I don't think that's the case. The gay parents I know, all single, just want their kids to grow up and be happy, gay or not.
What I'm asking you is, does it matter to you whether or not children of gay parents grow up to be gay? Is that a bad thing to you?
About the gay parents, what I meant is that gay people would see it as unjust to prevent them from adopting children based just on studies showing that those children would grow up to be gay in their care.
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If being homosexual, bisexual, transgendered, etc. is genetic, then the child of a homosexual, bisexual, transgendered, etc. couple wouldn't turn out that way unless they were born that way.
That's if you believe it's genetic and not a lifestyle choice.
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Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet (Romans 1:24-27).
Having read this, do you really believe it is permissable to be attracted to the same sex?
Good verse! I see your point.
I could be mistaken about my thoughts which I expressed above concerning the Bible on homosexuality, but even that verse to me is talking about lust for someone of the same gender, or having sex with someone of the same gender.
I still have questions about the difference between being attracted to someone of the same gender and actually lusting after or having sex with someone of the same gender.
Do you believe it is permissible for a Christian man to be attracted to his friend's gorgeous wife?
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Do you believe it is permissible for a Christian man to be attracted to his friend's gorgeous wife?
It really depends on how you are defining "attracted." There are beautiful women every where. A Christian man would be lying if he said that he did not notice them. The sin comes about when one starts to entertain and escalate those thoughts. For example, you see an attractive women and you think to yourself, 'that is a beautiful woman.' There is nothing sinful in that. However, if you start wondering what she is like in bed, start undressing her, or having sexual thoughts, you are sinning. Christians are not immune to temptation. When you do take those thoughts to far, you must quickly rebuke satan and ask for forgiveness of the Lord.
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It really depends on how you are defining "attracted." There are beautiful women every where. A Christian man would be lying if he said that he did not notice them. The sin comes about when one starts to entertain and escalate those thoughts. For example, you see an attractive women and you think to yourself, 'that is a beautiful woman.' There is nothing sinful in that. However, if you start wondering what she is like in bed, start undressing her, or having sexual thoughts, you are sinning. Christians are not immune to temptation. When you do take those thoughts to far, you must quickly rebuke satan and ask for forgiveness of the Lord.
Okay, now take that same thought and apply it to people who feel the same for other people of the same gender. Those people are not sinning as long as they keep their thoughts and actions in check, correct?
You may still not agree with me, and that's okay. But I hope that at least you see my point and why I ask these questions.
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What I'm asking you is, does it matter to you whether or not children of gay parents grow up to be gay? Is that a bad thing to you?
No it doesn't matter to me. I think if a person is going to be gay they are going to be gay. We get plenty of gay people from straight parents.
About the gay parents, what I meant is that gay people would see it as unjust to prevent them from adopting children based just on studies showing that those children would grow up to be gay in their care.
I can imagine they would.
Anyone have links to actual studies?
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Okay, now take that same thought and apply it to people who feel the same for other people of the same gender. Those people are not sinning as long as they keep their thoughts and actions in check, correct?
You may still not agree with me, and that's okay. But I hope that at least you see my point and why I ask these questions.
I do understand you thought process on this, but you are missing on very important point. God deals with the heart. You are proposing that as long as a person keeps his or her thoughts and actons in check, he or she will be all right. God does not work that way. The Bible teaches us that even when we give to others or the church, we are to do it cheerfully. God does not want us to have malice in our hearts about giving (I'll have to find this Scripture later). God can have absolutely nothing to do with sin. He even had to turn away from His only Son when Christ became sin for us. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
(Matthew 27:46)
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perhaps i should have said approving instead of accepting
I don't think you'll see society, at least in the USA, approve of it anytime soon. It will become like others things where they just tolerate it and look at it as part of a free society. That's what's going on here, as i see it, in California. It's pretty open and no one bothers with it.
The fact that prop 8 got passed shows many don't approve of it, i think.
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I do understand you thought process on this, but you are missing on very important point. God deals with the heart. You are proposing that as long as a person keeps his or her thoughts and actons in check, he or she will be all right. God does not work that way. The Bible teaches us that even when we give to others or the church, we are to do it cheerfully. God does not want us to have malice in our hearts about giving (I'll have to find this Scripture later). God can have absolutely nothing to do with sin. He even had to turn away from His only Son when Christ became sin for us. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
(Matthew 27:46)
Please correct me if I'm wrong!
You believe that if heterosexual people keep their thoughts and actions in check toward the opposite sex, they are not committing sexual immorality, even though they are naturally attracted to the opposite sex.
You also believe that even if people who are attracted to the same gender keep their thoughts and actions in check toward the same sex, they still commit the sin of homosexuality only because they are attracted to the same gender.
I can see why you believe this! To you and to many Christians I'm sure, that is what Romans 1:24-27 says.
However, to me Romans 1:24-27 does not say that, though I could be wrong. I'm just being honest, and I am not in any way shape or form trying to justify homosexuality from a Biblical point of view. To me, Romans 1:24-27 is talking about lusting after or having sex with a person of the same gender.
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Please correct me if I'm wrong!
You believe that if heterosexual people keep their thoughts and actions in check toward the opposite sex, they are not committing sexual immorality, even though they are naturally attracted to the opposite sex.
You also believe that even if people who are attracted to the same gender keep their thoughts and actions in check toward the same sex, they still commit the sin of homosexuality only because they are attracted to the same gender.
I can see why you believe this! To you and to many Christians I'm sure, that is what Romans 1:24-27 says.
However, to me Romans 1:24-27 does not say that, though I could be wrong. I'm just being honest, and I am not in any way shape or form trying to justify homosexuality from a Biblical point of view. To me, Romans 1:24-27 is talking about lusting after or having sex with a person of the same gender.
Yes, I do believe that if the actions and thoughts are kept in obedience to God's word, then a person does not commit sin. This is not the same as someone saying, "Man, look at that fine butt on that woman. Lord, please forgive me." Such a person's heart is not on God.
Yes, I believe that anything that is homosexual in nature, whether it is thought, actions or thoughts not acted out.
for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another... This is pretty straight forward.
My apologies, but I must continue this conversation tomorrow. It is after 10:00 P.M. my time, and I have to get up very early in the morning. God Bless you.
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I don't think you'll see society, at least in the USA, approve of it anytime soon. It will become like others things where they just tolerate it and look at it as part of a free society. That's what's going on here, as i see it, in California. It's pretty open and no one bothers with it.
The fact that prop 8 got passed shows many don't approve of it, i think.
no doubt, i was talking about years from now not necissarily anytime soon maybe 10 or 15 yrs down the road. I dont have studies oz but have studied it in some of my psych classes, again ppl are made up of nature and nurture meaning that being gay isnt a 100% genetic trait there is some degree of choice in it probably more in some then in others but still there is a choice. When society as a whole begins to feel homosexualtiy is normal, or that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality more ppl will make that choice. Same thing with violence, if it was ok for you to bitch slap stupid ppl without repurcussions, wouldnt you from time to time? You dont simply b/c its not socially acceptable if it was there would be alot more bitch slapping going around and its the same thing for being gay.
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no doubt, i was talking about years from now not necissarily anytime soon maybe 10 or 15 yrs down the road. I dont have studies oz but have studied it in some of my psych classes, again ppl are made up of nature and nurture meaning that being gay isnt a 100% genetic trait there is some degree of choice in it probably more in some then in others but still there is a choice. When society as a whole begins to feel homosexualtiy is normal, or that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality more ppl will make that choice. Same thing with violence, if it was ok for you to bitch slap stupid ppl without repurcussions, wouldnt you from time to time? You dont simply b/c its not socially acceptable if it was there would be alot more bitch slapping going around and its the same thing for being gay.
I think they make that choice because the desire is in them. As you say, a "disposition" exists. For me there's no desire, so no choice will ever be made. But for those with the "disposition" they can choose to live miserably or live happily. I say everyone is entitled to be happy and what 2 consenting adults do with their time is there choice so long as no one gets bitch slapped. ;D
I personally, am not worried that otherwise straight people would end up gay because they had gay parents. (that's my opinion based on personal experience not actual studies) If you are gay you are gay. I remember the well the strong desire i had for girls at a very early age. Nothing would have dissuaded me, even the threat of ever lasting damnation from God didn't stop me. ;D
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I think they make that choice because the desire is in them. As you say, a "disposition" exists. For me there's no desire, so no choice will ever be made. But for those with the "disposition" they can choose to live miserably or live happily. I say everyone is entitled to be happy and what 2 consenting adults do with their time is there choice so long as no one gets bitch slapped. ;D
I personally, am not worried that otherwise straight people would end up gay because they had gay parents. (that's my opinion based on personal experience not actual studies) If you are gay you are gay. I remember the well the strong desire i had for girls at a very early age. Nothing would have dissuaded me, even the threat of ever lasting damnation from God didn't stop me. ;D
right and i understand and respect that but your point of view stems from your belief that homosexuality is ok, i dont and even if i did there is no logical point to homosexuality. If you are against it homosexuality as a whole, and given that the more approving a society is to a given predisposition the more individuals will choose to indulge that given predisposition then you are going to be against just about ANYTHING that normalizes that behavior.
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right and i understand and respect that but your point of view stems from your belief that homosexuality is ok, i dont and even if i did there is no logical point to homosexuality. If you are against it homosexuality as a whole, and given that the more approving a society is to a given predisposition the more individuals will choose to indulge that given predisposition then you are going to be against just about ANYTHING that normalizes that behavior.
I don't think homosexuality is normal. People aren't normal for the most part anyway. You are right, I don't think there is anything wrong with homosexuality for those that are homosexual. For Straight folks, there's a ton of stuff wrong with it.
The thing is, homosexuality will never be normal, no matter how accepted it is. People will either dig the opposite or in a smaller percentage dig the same sex.
Interesting, I remember about 15 years ago, spending about a year with this very Word of God Bible believing church and some of them saying sex in general is an abnormal act.
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I don't think homosexuality is normal.
Funny, neither does nature. I've never seen or heard about our closest relatives the apes having homosexual sex.
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Instead of gay adoption, how about Gay Extermination? sick homos i hate them
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I don't think homosexuality is normal. People aren't normal for the most part anyway. You are right, I don't think there is anything wrong with homosexuality for those that are homosexual. For Straight folks, there's a ton of stuff wrong with it.
The thing is, homosexuality will never be normal, no matter how accepted it is. People will either dig the opposite or in a smaller percentage dig the same sex.
Interesting, I remember about 15 years ago, spending about a year with this very Word of God Bible believing church and some of them saying sex in general is an abnormal act.
well acts such as legalizing gay marriage and gay adoption look to normalize homosexuality and yes going down the road we are on homosexuality will become just like anything else, im not saying that it will become the norm only that it will become a normal part of society to have gay ppl with families. How is sex an abnormal act if you dont mind me asking?
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Funny, neither does nature. I've never seen or heard about our closest relatives the apes having homosexual sex.
actually there are cases of apes being "gay" and being secondary car givers to nephews, neices, cousins etc...
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well acts such as legalizing gay marriage and gay adoption look to normalize homosexuality and yes going down the road we are on homosexuality will become just like anything else, im not saying that it will become the norm only that it will become a normal part of society to have gay ppl with families. How is sex an abnormal act if you dont mind me asking?
I remember them calling it a vile act that we weren't design for. They were pretty hard core if you know what i mean. All the women wore dresses to church and no make up. They all had long hair. Outside of church I catch them occasionally wearing pants. Many didn't own TV's. Tough way to live these days.
Oh yeah, one of told me that a human female is the only female species on earth that has orgasms.
Anyone know if that's true?
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actually there are cases of apes being "gay" .
Pics or didnt happen.
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Funny, neither does nature. I've never seen or heard about our closest relatives the apes having homosexual sex.
Yeah, and the rest of nature is far below humans. Maybe it's humans advance stature that allows them to enjoy gay sex. :D
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I remember them calling it a vile act that we weren't design for. They were pretty hard core if you know what i mean. All the women wore dresses to church and no make up. They all had long hair. Outside of church I catch them occasionally wearing pants. Many didn't own TV's. Tough way to live these days.
they were talking about sex between a man and a women?
no offense but that assinine, what doesnt make sense is homosexual sex though again is pointless.
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Maybe it's humans advance stature that allows them to enjoy gay sex. :D
No, it just shows that natural selection is no longer acting on us.
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they were talking about sex between a man and a women?
no offense but that assinine, what doesnt make sense is homosexual sex though again is pointless.
Yep sex between and a man and woman.
I agree it's asinine. I haven't gone to that church since about 1995.
Oh yeah, one of them told me that a human female is the only female species on earth that has orgasms.
Anyone know if that's true?
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they were talking about sex between a man and a women?
no offense but that assinine, what doesnt make sense is homosexual sex though again is pointless.
The bible is actualy pro sex, "go forth and be fruitful" or some shit like that.
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No, it just shows that natural selection is no longer acting on us.
lol....or is it and we don't realize it? ;D
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Yep sex between and a man and woman.
I agree it's asinine. I haven't gone to that church since about 1995.
Oh yeah, one of them told me that a human female is the only female species on earth that has orgasms.
Anyone know if that's true?
actually i think that female apes can and i believe there is an evolutionary explination for it as well.
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The bible is actualy pro sex, "go forth and be fruitful" or some shit like that.
yeah, procreate to make babies. Don't procreate to get your rocks off.
Just so you understand, I didn't agree with them. Plus, some of their wives were..... well, they had great personalities. :)
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yeah, procreate to make babies. Don't procreate to get your rocks off.
Just so you understand, I didn't agree with them. Plus, some of their wives were..... well, they had great personalities. :)
hahahaha LOL nice
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actually natural selection is still working, promoting homosexual behavior doesnt help though again its freaking pointless.
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Yes, I do believe that if the actions and thoughts are kept in obedience to God's word, then a person does not commit sin. This is not the same as someone saying, "Man, look at that fine butt on that woman. Lord, please forgive me." Such a person's heart is not on God.
Yes, I believe that anything that is homosexual in nature, whether it is thought, actions or thoughts not acted out.
for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another... This is pretty straight forward.
My apologies, but I must continue this conversation tomorrow. It is after 10:00 P.M. my time, and I have to get up very early in the morning. God Bless you.
It still reads to me as if it is talking about lust and sexual acts, as opposed to having a "genetic" attraction to the same gender. But again, I could be proved mistaken.
Romans 1:26-27 (New International Version)
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Romans 1:26-27 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
26 This is why God delivered them over to degrading passions. (A) For even their females exchanged natural sexual intercourse (a) for what is unnatural. 27 The males in the same way also left natural sexual intercourse (b) with females and were inflamed in their lust for one another. Males committed shameless acts with males (B) and received in their own persons (c) the appropriate penalty for their perversion. (d)
Footnotes:
a. Romans 1:26 Lit natural use
b. Romans 1:27 Lit natural use
c. Romans 1:27 Or in themselves
d. Romans 1:27 Or error
Cross references:
A. Romans 1:26 : 1Th 4:5;
B. Romans 1:27 : Lv 18:22; 20:13; 1Co 6:9;
Great discussion! :)
God bless you too!
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Funny, neither does nature. I've never seen or heard about our closest relatives the apes having homosexual sex.
You need to do a lot more reading (and I don't mean on message boards).
Homosexuality is all over the animal kingdom and has been for centuries. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/07/arts/love-that-dare-not-squeak-its-name.html?scp=2&sq=the%20love%20that%20dare%20not%20squeak%20its%20name&st=cse&pagewanted=all
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It still reads to me as if it is talking about lust and sexual acts, as opposed to having a "genetic" attraction to the same gender. But again, I could be proved mistaken.
It is extremely clear to me that God is talking about lust and sexual acts amongst gays. What does this Scripture say to you?
And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door (Genesis 19:5-11).
God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because of the people's wicked ways. We know from the above scripture that homosexuality was a part of the sexual immorality that was happening. If God feels this way about homosexuality, then it stands to reason that it is also sinful to have these thoughts. I know this is difficult for many people to accept because there are some seemingly decent gay people in communities. In the past, I have read some of BayGBM's posts on other boards (now I only read here, the nutrition board and occasionally the General topics), and he seems like a good guy. It is obvious that he's educated and seems to present himself well on these boards. I would suspect that he is well-liked and respected by those who know him. That does not change the fact the he commits and promotes a sinful act in the eyes of God. *BayGBM, if you are reading this, it is not an personal attack directed at you.
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It is extremely clear to me that God is talking about lust and sexual acts amongst gays. What does this Scripture say to you?
And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door (Genesis 19:5-11).
God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because of the people's wicked ways. We know from the above scripture that homosexuality was a part of the sexual immorality that was happening. If God feels this way about homosexuality, then it stands to reason that it is also sinful to have these thoughts. I know this is difficult for many people to accept because there are some seemingly decent gay people in communities. In the past, I have read some of BayGBM's posts on other boards (now I only read here, the nutrition board and occasionally the General topics), and he seems like a good guy. It is obvious that he's educated and seems to present himself well on these boards. I would suspect that he is well-liked and respected by those who know him. That does not change the fact the he commits and promotes a sinful act in the eyes of God. *BayGBM, if you are reading this, it is not an personal attack directed at you.
To me it looks like those men from Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to have sexual intercourse with the two men visiting Lot. That is clearly a sin and part of the reason God punished the cities.
But again, even in this case, God did not punish the cities because they were born with a "genetic" attraction to the same gender. These verses too are talking about lust and a sexual act.
I see what you are saying about this being difficult for many people, but it's not difficult for me. I have no bias or ulterior motives when it comes to this. I was born and raised in a country were most men are homophobic, most homosexuals are still in the closet, and where same-sex-marriage is illegal and not even a debate.
I am just being honest here about this subject and trying to stick to scripture alone. I have not yet found a place in the Bible where it says that somebody born with a "genetic" attraction to people of the same sex are doomed, even if they place their faith in Jesus Christ and abstain from lustful thoughts and abstain from sexual immorality.
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Another thing worth noting is that the 10 Commandments, which were written by the finger of God Himself, do not mention homosexuality specifically, but they do mention adultery specifically. I am aware that God does condemn homosexuality later in Leviticus 18:22; 20:13. So I am not saying that it is permissible, but just interesting that homosexuality is not mentioned specifically within the 10 Commandments, but adultery is.
Jesus, as far as we know from the Gospels, never mentioned homosexuality. But Jesus did mention adultery specifically, and divorce too.
The Bible clearly says that God hates divorce, but it never says that God hates homosexuality, though it clearly says that it is a sin.
Malachi 2:16
"I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel
I see Christians making a huge deal about homosexuality, which clearly is a sin, but I don't see Christians making a huge deal about divorce, though the Bible specifically says that God hates divorce.
Just things I believe are worth noticing about us Christians, and worth discussing.
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I am just being honest here about this subject and trying to stick to scripture alone. I have not yet found a place in the Bible where it says that somebody born with a "genetic" attraction to people of the same sex are doomed, even if they place their faith in Jesus Christ and abstain from lustful thoughts and abstain from sexual immorality.
If you believe that homosexuality is sinful, do you think that someone can be born gay as a result of God's hand? I have stated in this thread (or maybe another one) that I sin can be past from our ancestors.
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me (EX 20:4-6).
It would appear that Christians spend a lot of time chastising gays. Sin is sin, whether it be lying, stealing, adultery, fornication or homosexuality. I would imagine gays are pursued more because there is a "gay movement" to say that it is not sinful. Have you ever heard of liars and thieves suggesting that their acts are not sinful?
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I see Christians making a huge deal about homosexuality, which clearly is a sin, but I don't see Christians making a huge deal about divorce, though the Bible specifically says that God hates divorce.
I mean you no disrespect, but you seem to want to justify homosexuality. You say it is a sin, but I sense that you are somewhat defending the act. As I stated in the previous post, sin is sin. It does not matter if it homosexuality or lying. You cannot chose to defend one sin and ignore others. Granted, Christians need to keep this in mind too (as you have alluded to).
There are two times that God allows for divorce. If a person commits adultery, then the spouse is free to seek a divorce. Also, if a Christian is married to a Non-Christians, and the Non-Christian wants to divorce, it is permissible.
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I mean you no disrespect, but you seem to want to justify homosexuality. You say it is a sin, but I sense that you are somewhat defending the act. As I stated in the previous post, sin is sin. It does not matter if it homosexuality or lying. You cannot chose to defend one sin and ignore others. Granted, Christians need to keep this in mind too (as you have alluded to).
There are two times that God allows for divorce. If a person commits adultery, then the spouse is free to seek a divorce. Also, if a Christian is married to a Non-Christians, and the Non-Christian wants to divorce, it is permissible.
Not at all. Please read my post above. Homosexuality is a sin, and it is clearly condemned by God in the Bible.
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I mean you no disrespect, but you seem to want to justify homosexuality. You say it is a sin, but I sense that you are somewhat defending the act. As I stated in the previous post, sin is sin. It does not matter if it homosexuality or lying. You cannot chose to defend one sin and ignore others. Granted, Christians need to keep this in mind too (as you have alluded to).
There are two times that God allows for divorce. If a person commits adultery, then the spouse is free to seek a divorce. Also, if a Christian is married to a Non-Christians, and the Non-Christian wants to divorce, it is permissible.
Also keep in mind that the divorce laws were made “because of the hardness of your hearts”, according to Christ. One of the reasons that Israel was forbidden to intermarry with their neighbors is because of the way those neighbors treated their women.
The men of Israel picked up those bad habits and frivolously divorced their wives, leaving them destitute and out in the cold (figuratively speaking; this was the Ancient Near East).
The divorce certificate stated that the woman’s character and conduct was not an issue and she could find a decent husband and re-marry.
God does hate divorce; He also hates the reasons for divorce, among them namely (as stated in the book of Malachi) the men dealing treacherously with their wives.
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Also keep in mind that the divorce laws were made “because of the hardness of your hearts”, according to Christ. One of the reasons that Israel was forbidden to intermarry with their neighbors is because of the way those neighbors treated their women.
The men of Israel picked up those bad habits and frivolously divorced their wives, leaving them destitute and out in the cold (figuratively speaking; this was the Ancient Near East).
The divorce certificate stated that the woman’s character and conduct was not an issue and she could find a decent husband and re-marry.
God does hate divorce; He also hates the reasons for divorce, among them namely (as stated in the book of Malachi) the men dealing treacherously with their wives.
Maybe we should start a "The Bible on Divorce" thread. ;D
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Maybe we should start a "The Bible on Divorce" thread. ;D
That might be a Good idea!
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Also keep in mind that the divorce laws were made “because of the hardness of your hearts”, according to Christ. One of the reasons that Israel was forbidden to intermarry with their neighbors is because of the way those neighbors treated their women.
The men of Israel picked up those bad habits and frivolously divorced their wives, leaving them destitute and out in the cold (figuratively speaking; this was the Ancient Near East).
The divorce certificate stated that the woman’s character and conduct was not an issue and she could find a decent husband and re-marry.
God does hate divorce; He also hates the reasons for divorce, among them namely (as stated in the book of Malachi) the men dealing treacherously with their wives.
Good Post! I am vaguely aware on some of this; you have given me something to research.
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If you believe that homosexuality is sinful, do you think that someone can be born gay as a result of God's hand? I have stated in this thread (or maybe another one) that I sin can be past from our ancestors.
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me (EX 20:4-6).
It would appear that Christians spend a lot of time chastising gays. Sin is sin, whether it be lying, stealing, adultery, fornication or homosexuality. I would imagine gays are pursued more because there is a "gay movement" to say that it is not sinful. Have you ever heard of liars and thieves suggesting that their acts are not sinful?
I think that our disagreement or misunderstanding lies within the definition of homosexuality. What is the definition of homosexuality according to the Bible? It does not seem very clear to me. Is a homosexual only a person who has lustful thoughts for or sexual intercourse with somebody of the same gender? If that's the case, then somebody who abstains from these two is not a homosexual even if that person has a "genetic" attraction for the same gender.
Maybe this is a bad analogy, but take gluttony for example. Gluttony is clearly condemned in the Bible, but eating food, which may lead to gluttony, is not condemned. Our desire and love for, and our attraction to food is not condemned either, but gluttony is condemned. It seems to me that it might be the same with homosexuality, that lustful thoughts and sexual intercourse with the same gender is considered homosexual, and homosexuality is clearly condemned. But simply having a "genetic" attraction to somebody of the same gender is not homosexuality and it's not a sin. That's what it looks like to me. I am not saying that's the way it is in the Bible.
I do agree with you that IF being attracted to the same gender is genetic, and as of today we do not have proof that it is, it would be a very difficult thing even for a "Christian" to live with, and even if that person was "saved" by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore, in my opinion and from what I see in the Bible, it would be a result of sins from past generations, like you said.
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I think that our disagreement or misunderstanding lies within the definition of homosexuality. What is the definition of homosexuality according to the Bible? It does not seem very clear to me. Is a homosexual only a person who has lustful thoughts for or sexual intercourse with somebody of the same gender? If that's the case, then somebody who abstains from these two is not a homosexual even if that person has a "genetic" attraction for the same gender.
Maybe this is a bad analogy, but take gluttony for example. Gluttony is clearly condemned in the Bible, but eating food, which may lead to gluttony, is not condemned. Our desire and love for, and our attraction to food is not condemned either, but gluttony is condemned. It seems to me that it might be the same with homosexuality, that lustful thoughts and sexual intercourse with the same gender is considered homosexual, and homosexuality is clearly condemned. But simply having a "genetic" attraction to somebody of the same gender is not homosexuality and it's not a sin. That's what it looks like to me. I am not saying that's the way it is in the Bible.
I do agree with you that IF being attracted to the same gender is genetic, and as of today we do not have proof that it is, it would be a very difficult thing even for a "Christian" to live with, and even if that person was "saved" by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore, in my opinion and from what I see in the Bible, it would be a result of sins from past generations, like you said.
We know that according to God's Word, if a man commits adultery in his heart, he is an adulator. The same applies to homosexuality. God tells us that of all the sins we commit, sexual immorality is the only one that is committed against the temple (body).
Let me give you an analogy:
Imagine that you are taking your small child to a day care center. You are greeted by a man who says he is going to be the primary cartaker for your child. He also says that he believes he was born with pedophile tendencies, but he does not act on them. He goes on to say that he has attraction for little kids, but will not act on it. Would you leave your child with him?
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it never ceases to amaze me how screwed up you guys are.
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it never ceases to amaze me how screwed up you guys are.
plz address some of my comments
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We know that according to God's Word, if a man commits adultery in his heart, he is an adulator. The same applies to homosexuality. God tells us that of all the sins we commit, sexual immorality is the only one that is committed against the temple (body).
Let me give you an analogy:
Imagine that you are taking your small child to a day care center. You are greeted by a man who says he is going to be the primary cartaker for your child. He also says that he believes he was born with pedophile tendencies, but he does not act on them. He goes on to say that he has attraction for little kids, but will not act on it. Would you leave your child with him?
I agree that if a man commits homosexuality in his heart, he is a homosexual, just like if a man commits adultery in his heart he is an adulterer. But that is not what I'm talking about.
The man who commits adultery in his heart is not guilty just because he has a genetic attraction to women. He is guilty because he committed adultery in his heart. Likewise, the man who commits homosexuality in his heart is not guilty just because he has a "genetic" attraction to men. He is guilty because he has committed homosexuality in his heart.
Again, what is the Biblical definition of homosexuality? It seems to me that is is only lusting for somebody of the same gender or actually having sex with somebody of the same gender, but not merely having a genetic attraction to the same gender.
As for the pedophile analogy, if a man who knows he has pedophile tendencies and wants to be right with God and with the law, he must stay far away from children.
Likewise, a man who knows that he has a "natural" attraction for other men, yet wants to be right with the God of the Bible, first he has to repent and have faith in Jesus Christ, and then he must stay far away from other homosexual men. It's like a recovering alcoholic who wants to quit for good. He must stay away from his drinking buddies and from alcohol all together.
Please keep in mind that for the sake of our discussion, my questions and comments about this subject are made only assuming that homosexuality is genetic, which it is not as of today and we have no proof that it is.
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The man who commits adultery in his heart is not guilty just because he has a genetic attraction to women. He is guilty because he committed adultery in his heart. Likewise, the man who commits homosexuality in his heart is not guilty just because he has a "genetic" attraction to men. He is guilty because he has committed homosexuality in his heart.
Again, what is the Biblical definition of homosexuality? It seems to me that is is only lusting for somebody of the same gender or actually having sex with somebody of the same gender, but not merely having a genetic attraction to the same gender.
As for the pedophile analogy, if a man who knows he has pedophile tendencies and wants to be right with God and with the law, he must stay far away from children.[/b][/i]
Likewise, a man who knows that he has a "natural" attraction for other men, yet wants to be right with the God of the Bible, first he has to repent and have faith in Jesus Christ, and then he must stay far away from other homosexual men. It's like a recovering alcoholic who wants to quit for good. He must stay away from his drinking buddies and from alcohol all together.
Please keep in mind that for the sake of our discussion, my questions and comments about this subject are made only assuming that homosexuality is genetic, which it is not as of today and we have no proof that it is.
There is nothing sinful about a man being attracted to a woman, from a "genetic" perspective. God calls this natural because that is how he designed us. This is also why it is sinful to even be "genetically" attracted to the same sex. Homosexuality, whether it be mental, physical or genetics, is of the enemy of God. His Word has made that abundantly clear.
The Bible's definition of homosexuality: Any attraction to the same sex, whether it be physical, mental or genetics. How did I come to this conclusion? As you have pointed out, it is pretty clear that God says not to have a physical or mental relationship (sexual) with someone of the same sex. As I have asked before, if He is this opposed to homosexuality, would he create someone to be gay? I have also said that I do believe that there are those who are born gay. However, this is a result of sin.
The same principle applies to the pedophile analogy. If a pedophile wants to be right with God, it is not that he must stay away from children. He must repent and be delivered. This removes any mental desires or genetic predispositions. Doctors tell patients that they cannot be cured of alcoholism or sexually deviant behavior. They may not be able to be cured by man, but do not doubt for a moment that our God can cure them. This is the gist of what I am trying to get you to see. God can fix any sin if we ask Him to. Actually there are a couple of sins that cannot be forgiven, but I wish not to go down that road. Suffice it to say that homosexuality is not one of them.
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There is nothing sinful about a man being attracted to a woman, from a "genetic" perspective. God calls this natural because that is how he designed us. This is also why it is sinful to even be "genetically" attracted to the same sex. Homosexuality, whether it be mental, physical or genetics, is of the enemy of God. His Word has made that abundantly clear.
The Bible's definition of homosexuality: Any attraction to the same sex, whether it be physical, mental or genetics. How did I come to this conclusion? As you have pointed out, it is pretty clear that God says not to have a physical or mental relationship (sexual) with someone of the same sex. As I have asked before, if He is this opposed to homosexuality, would he create someone to be gay? I have also said that I do believe that there are those who are born gay. However, this is a result of sin.
The same principle applies to the pedophile analogy. If a pedophile wants to be right with God, it is not that he must stay away from children. He must repent and be delivered. This removes any mental desires or genetic predispositions. Doctors tell patients that they cannot be cured of alcoholism or sexually deviant behavior. They may not be able to be cured by man, but do not doubt for a moment that our God can cure them. This is the gist of what I am trying to get you to see. God can fix any sin if we ask Him to. Actually there are a couple of sins that cannot be forgiven, but I wish not to go down that road. Suffice it to say that homosexuality is not one of them.
Well, none of this matters if homosexuality is not genetic. Like I said, as of today we have no definite scientific proof that it is. My general argument was that even if it is genetic, lusting after somebody of the same gender or having sex with somebody of the same gender is still a sin in God's eyes according to the Bible.
You are right, and I agree with you that doctors tell some patients that they cannot be cured from alcoholism. And there are true stories of some of those same patients being cured anyway after putting their faith in Jesus Christ. That is actually how Alcoholics Anonymous(AA) and all other 12 step programs got started.
I also agree with you that Jesus has the power to change any person, even those who may have been born with an attraction to people of the same sex, to the point where that attraction just goes away forever.
More on AA:
Carl Gustav Jung (26 July 1875 – 6 June 1961) was a Swiss psychiatrist, an influential thinker and the founder of Analytical psychology. Jung's approach to psychology has been influential in the field of depth psychology and in countercultural movements across the globe.
Spirituality as a cure for alcoholism
Jung recommended spirituality as a cure for alcoholism and he is considered to have had an indirect role in establishing Alcoholics Anonymous.[42] Jung's influence can sometimes be found in more unexpected quarters. For example, Jung once treated an American patient (Rowland Hazard III), suffering from chronic alcoholism. After working with the patient for some time and achieving no significant progress, Jung told the man that his alcoholic condition was near to hopeless, save only the possibility of a spiritual experience. Jung noted that occasionally such experiences had been known to reform alcoholics where all else had failed.
Rowland took Jung's advice seriously and set about seeking a personal spiritual experience. He returned home to the United States and joined a Christian evangelical Re-Armament movement known as the Oxford Group. He also told other alcoholics what Jung had told him about the importance of a spiritual experience. One of the alcoholics he told was Ebby Thacher, a long-time friend and drinking buddy of Bill Wilson, later co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA). Thacher told Wilson about Jung's ideas. Wilson, who was finding it impossible to maintain sobriety, was impressed and sought out his own spiritual experience. The influence of Jung thus indirectly found its way into the formation of Alcoholics Anonymous, the original twelve-step program, and from there into the whole twelve-step recovery movement, although AA as a whole is not Jungian and Jung had no role in the formation of that approach or the twelve steps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Jung#Spirituality_as_a_cure_for_alcoholism
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plz address some of my comments
Why?you guys completely highjacked the thread.and turned it into a chance to spew your dogma.
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Why?you guys completely highjacked the thread.and turned it into a chance to spew your dogma.
please show me where i was spewing dogma, i think you have me confused L. dawg
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Sometimes discussions take turns and branch off in different directions.
It's also hard to have a debate or discussion on religion with out dogma of some sort.
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Why?you guys completely highjacked the thread.and turned it into a chance to spew your dogma.
please show me where i was spewing dogma, i think you have me confused L. dawg
quote]
I think may have been meant for me. My apologies for taking this somewhat off topic, but Loco had some interesting questions and comments.
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What world are you from again fit?
Is it Nibiru or the Plaeides?
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What world are you from again fit?
Is it Nibiru or the Plaeides?
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world (1 John 2: 15-16) .
I understand that you are asking out of humor or possibly to be insulting. I provided the Scripture for those who may truly be interested in the subject. In any event, may God Bless you.
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I'm not going to read 4 pages of shit as I pretty know much where this went but here's what the King of Wisdom (23) has to say:
1- Gay men are better suited emotionally to provide attention and affection than many "normal" parents.
2- Are in 99% of the cases financially more capable.
3- Are better cultured in 99% of the cases.
4- By experience, their sexual choice does not influence the children's, in fact creates a more open minded young adult in most cases
More power for them and God loves everyone, don't let the "Church" shit in your brain.
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I'm not going to read 4 pages of shit as I pretty know much where this went but here's what the King of Wisdom (23) has to say:
1- Gay men are better suited emotionally to provide attention and affection than many "normal" parents.
2- Are in 99% of the cases financially more capable.
3- Are better cultured in 99% of the cases.
4- By experience, their sexual choice does not influence the children's, in fact creates a more open minded young adult in most cases
More power for them and God loves everyone, don't let the "Church" shit in your brain.
LOL...I have been trying to figure out who the "King of Wisdom (23)" is. Please excuse my Getbig ignorance. I do not venture past this board very often. TE
According to your wisdom, what does God have to say about homosexuality?
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I don't know, I think a good man and woman are most capable of bringing up a child right.
I don't see what would be wrong with homosexuals or single people (who are financially stable, and good people) adopting a child though. In most cases they would probably to do a much better job than the state would/could.
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I'm not going to read 4 pages of shit as I pretty know much where this went but here's what the King of Wisdom (23) has to say:
1- Gay men are better suited emotionally to provide attention and affection than many "normal" parents.
2- Are in 99% of the cases financially more capable.
3- Are better cultured in 99% of the cases.
4- By experience, their sexual choice does not influence the children's, in fact creates a more open minded young adult in most cases
More power for them and God loves everyone, don't let the "Church" shit in your brain.
lol good post!
The thing is, regardless of your opinion on homosexuals... Being raised in an orphanage (or what ever they call it these days) has got to be worse on a persons development than gay parents could possibly be.
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There are no "God"; If you insist, "God" starts where science stops reaching but advances every day...
Da Vinci
Newton
Einstein
Bloom
....
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There are no "God"; If you insist, "God" starts where science stops reaching but advances every day...
Da Vinci
Newton
Einstein
Bloom
....
WTF you talking about?! Learn english, and then come back when someone actauly cares about what you have to say.
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WTF you talking about?! Learn english, and then come back when someone actauly cares about what you have to say.
The Aryan aspiring/worshipper character bashing on his own "kind"... not surprising, actually a trait of character in most of them.
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In an ideal world, orphaned children in the USA and abroad would be raised by their biological parents, but natural death, poverty, disease, and war, have created more than 100 million orphans around the world! Most of these children will lead lives of utter misery (if they are lucky). The rest will die premature deaths.
you begin such, that you refer to "gay adoption" as not the most ideal of situations....instead you offer it as an less palatable alternative.... :-\
stick to your guns my man...
and yes i do think gay people should be allowed to adopt children who would otherwise die.
Hetro couples should get first pick.
there is millions of yrs of Darwanism and evolution behind my logic.
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you begin such, that you refer to "gay adoption" as not the most ideal of situations....instead you offer it as an less palatable alternative.... :-\
stick to your guns my man...
and yes i do think gay people should be allowed to adopt children who would otherwise die.
Hetro couples should get first pick.
there is millions of yrs of Darwanism and evolution behind my logic.
You blind gullible fool, that whole "allow gays to adopts children who would otherwise die/live in an orphanage" is just wool they want to pull over your eyes.
Maybe its an American thing, just like your former president said "lets invade iraq because they have weapons of mass destruction even though we found none" conveniently not mentioning the oil.
Same with allowing women to vote so that they have "equal rights" instead of mentioning that its to be able to tax the other half of the population.
Remember, gay parenting goes against the natural order and therefore should never be acceptable.
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I have a friend that was up for adoption and never got adopted.I asked him his take on this issue...he looked at me like it was the dumbest question he ever heard.He said he would have rather been raised by anyone gay,lesbian,straight,aliens, ANYONE.than grow up were he grew up in the care of the state.he never knew what it was like to have his own bedroom or go play outside in his own yard.we had a very long discussion on this and it reinforced my stance that If your don't support gay adoption you shouldn't oppose abortion.
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don't support gay adoption you shouldn't oppose abortion.
Well I dont oppose abortion, and what you just said seems to be another one of the fags cards that they like to play to get more votes on their sides " oh shit I dont support abortion therefore I should vote gay!"
::)
.....
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The question seems to be:
Are children better off growing in orphanages and foster homes or with loving but Gay parents?
I think the answer is obvious.
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The question seems to be:
Are children better off growing in orphanages and foster homes or with loving but Gay parents?
I think the answer is obvious.
correct.
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No, the question is:
Should gay parenting be legalised?
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The question seems to be:
Are children better off growing in orphanages and foster homes or with loving but Gay parents?
I think the answer is obvious.
MFQFT....
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No, the question is:
Should gay parenting be legalised?
Telling people they can't have babies because of their sexual orientation?
Out of the question.
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Telling people they can't have babies because of their sexual orientation?
Out of the question.
Er, nature tells them they cant, not me, trust me they've tried to do it, but it wont happen.
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Er, nature tells them they cant, not me, trust me they've tried to do it, but it wont happen.
Nature also tells people they can't fly but yet we have planes.
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Telling people they can't have babies because of their sexual orientation?
Out of the question.
AQFT
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MFQFT....
AQFT
What do those stand for?
MF = Mother F-er?
Q = Question?
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What do those stand for?
MF = Mother F-er?
Q = Question?
Mother Fucking Quoted For Truth
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Er, nature tells them they cant, not me, trust me they've tried to do it, but it wont happen.
actually now or days guys can have babies as sickening as that is
Nature also tells people they can't fly but yet we have planes.
nature has animals that fly, nature to my knowledge does not have homosexual couples that produce young.
again homosexuality=pointless
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You blind gullible fool, that whole "allow gays to adopts children who would otherwise die/live in an orphanage" is just wool they want to pull over your eyes.
Maybe its an American thing, just like your former president said "lets invade iraq because they have weapons of mass destruction even though we found none" conveniently not mentioning the oil.
Same with allowing women to vote so that they have "equal rights" instead of mentioning that its to be able to tax the other half of the population.
Remember, gay parenting goes against the natural order and therefore should never be acceptable.
lemme guess....
...juuuust throwing things out there
you r Religious :-\
you sound as bad as the pro life nuts that scream in the face of a raped girl thats now prego...fucking idiot
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you sound as bad as the pro life nut that scream in the face of a raped girl thats now prego...fucking idiot
religious or not if youre against abortion on the grounds that youre killing an innocent child, logically you have to be against is in all cases with the exception maybe of if the mothers health is in jeopardy. Rape or no rape doesnt change the fact that the child is innocent does it?
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actually now or days guys can have babies as sickening as that is
nature has animals that fly, nature to my knowledge does not have homosexual couples that produce young.
again homosexuality=pointless
But nature DOES have tons of homsexuality.
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But nature DOES have tons of homsexuality.
LOL homosexuality in nature is but a fraction, you say tons like its normal but its not and you know this. Even with this fact though thats besides the point that nature doesnt have homosexual reproducing couples. Deicide as a person who believes vehimently in evolution you can surely see the evolutionary dead end that is homosexuality.
homosexuality=pointless.
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LOL homosexuality in nature is but a fraction, you say tons like its normal but its not and you know this. Even with this fact though thats besides the point that nature doesnt have homosexual reproducing couples. Deicide as a person who believes vehimently in evolution you can surely see the evolutionary dead end that is homosexuality.
homosexuality=pointless.
We don't know why homosexuality exists but we do know it does. I don't believe in curtailing other peoples' freedom. If gay people want to adopt then they should be able to. It has no bearing on me or you. Who cares?
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We don't know why homosexuality exists but we do know it does. I don't believe in curtailing other peoples' freedom. If gay people want to adopt then they should be able to. It has no bearing on me or you. Who cares?
again ppl are made up of nature and nurture meaning that being gay isnt a 100% genetic trait there is some degree of choice in it probably more in some then in others but still there is a choice. When society as a whole begins to feel homosexualtiy is normal, or that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality more ppl will make that choice. Same thing with violence, if it was ok for you to bitch slap stupid ppl without repurcussions, wouldnt you from time to time? You dont simply b/c its not socially acceptable if it was there would be alot more bitch slapping going around and its the same thing for being gay.
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religious or not if youre against abortion on the grounds that youre killing an innocent child,
i'm pro abortion
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I think the evidence is that it is genetic. Did you 'choose' to like women? Even if it WERE a choice, who cares? Live and let live.
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Here's my thing with gay adoption.........is there any research showing that if two gay people adopt gay babies those babies are more likely to be gay? Does it prove nature vs. nurture? If it doesn't and kids are no more likely to be gay under gay parents than they are under straight parents who cares? There are TERRIBLE parents out there. I'm sure there are a lot of gay couples who would make great parents. Look at all the whacked out fucked up single moms out there but I don't see people ostracizing them? Also as far as god goes I think he could give a fuck who's raising kids as long as there is a need and gay parents do a good job. Afterall, god is love in the end when you cut through all the religious bullshit. ALL people gay or straight are capable of love.
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I think the evidence is that it is genetic. Did you 'choose' to like women? Even if it WERE a choice, who cares? Live and let live.
actually evidence is it has a genetic component to it like most things it is a combination of nature and nuture. Again some ppl have genetic predispositions to violence and addiction just to name two traits. Do you not think that those two traits would not be more rampant if society deemed them ok? of course they would...same thing for homosexuality the more society deems it ok the more ppl will choose to indulge in that trait. Now this may not be a big deal to some who believe homosexuality is ok, but to others who believe homosexuality is not ok why would you assume anything else but for them to oppose any and all actions that try to normalize homosexuality in society?
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actually evidence is it has a genetic component to it like most things it is a combination of nature and nuture. Again some ppl have genetic predispositions to violence and addiction just to name two traits. Do you not think that those two traits would not be more rampant if society deemed them ok? of course they would...same thing for homosexuality the more society deems it ok the more ppl will choose to indulge in that trait. Now this may not be a big deal to some who believe homosexuality is ok, but to others who believe homosexuality is not ok why would you assume anything else but for them to oppose any and all actions that try to normalize homosexuality in society?
In a free society you have to accept things that are different to you. Lots of things are not ok to lots of people. We have to live with differences in society. I do not believe in curtaling other peoples' rights to what they want and homosexuality is NOT a life/death issue so who cares?
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I think the evidence is that it is genetic. Did you 'choose' to like women? Even if it WERE a choice, who cares? Live and let live.
when i see one Lion buttF uck another very surprised Lion.....i'll be sold.....
...wait..change lion to elephant!
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In a free society you have to accept things that are different to you. Lots of things are not ok to lots of people. We have to live with differences in society. I do not believe in curtaling other peoples' rights to what they want and homosexuality is NOT a life/death issue so who cares?
free societies only really work in an ideal world, lines have to be drawn somewhere unfortunately i understand that you dont feel this is a place to draw a line and i can respect that.
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when i see one Lion buttF uck another very surprised Lion.....i'll be sold.....
...wait..change lion to elephant!
hahahaha
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actually now or days guys can have babies as sickening as that is
nature has animals that fly, nature to my knowledge does not have homosexual couples that produce young.
again homosexuality=pointless
By that logic so is foreplay and everything that gives pleasure. :D
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actually now or days guys can have babies as sickening as that is
I heard that those cases were actually women who had had a sex change then got pregnant.
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By that logic so is foreplay and everything that gives pleasure. :D
not at all, foreplay with the opposite sex serves a purpose...sexual activity of any kind with with the same sex is evolutionarily POINTLESS...a gay person can do everything that you can do with another gay person with a straight person the only reason they choose the same sex is b/c of the homosexual drive, which is pointless...I.E. Homosexuality is pointless.
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The question seems to be:
Are children better off growing in orphanages and foster homes or with loving but Gay parents?
I think the answer is obvious.
Sounds like an unrealistic "problem." How often do homosexual couples try and adopt kids in orphanages and foster homes?
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not at all, foreplay with the opposite sex serves a purpose...sexual activity of any kind with with the same sex is evolutionarily POINTLESS...a gay person can do everything that you can do with another gay person with a straight person the only reason they choose the same sex is b/c of the homosexual drive, which is pointless...I.E. Homosexuality is pointless.
People don't have sex just to evolve anymore than they have sex only to reproduce.
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Sounds like an unrealistic "problem." How often do homosexual couples try and adopt kids in orphanages and foster homes?
I wasn't aware it was a problem. The discussion seemed to be heading towards whether or not gay should be aloud to adopt.
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I heard that those cases were actually women who had had a sex change then got pregnant.
In Laboratory, Ordinary Cells Are Turned Into Eggs
By Rick Weiss
Washington Post Staff Writer
Scientists in Pennsylvania yesterday said they had turned ordinary mouse embryo cells into egg cells in laboratory dishes -- an advance that opens the door to creating "designer" eggs from scratch and, if repeated with human cells, could blur the biological line between fathers and mothers.
The work undermines the standard model of parenthood because the scientists made egg cells not only from female cells, but also from male cells, indicating that even males have the biological capacity to make eggs.
If the science holds true in humans as in mice -- and several scientists said they suspect it will -- then a gay male couple might, before long, be able to produce children through sexual reproduction, with one man contributing sperm and the other fresh eggs bearing his own genes.
That scenario raises difficult questions, including whether the second man would be recognized as the child's biological mother.
"It's absolutely remarkable," said Lee Silver, a Princeton molecular biologist who specializes in reproductive ethics. "This breaks down all the classic barriers in terms of sexual reproduction, with none of the problems of cloning."
Cloning produces offspring from just one parent, raising genetic and ethical problems that are not raised by the laboratory cultivation of eggs and sperm -- although the new work, in which embryonic stem cells spontaneously transformed themselves into eggs, raises issues of its own.
"Some of the applications will be seen as straightforward boons to humankind, such as for women who can't make healthy eggs the usual way," said Thomas Murray, president of the Hastings Center, a bioethics think tank in Garrison, N.Y. "But as with just about any medical development, there will be other uses that will give people hiccups, if not fits."
Human applications aside, the ability to mass-produce egg cells in a lab could make it much easier to engineer traits into animals, and help conservationists rebuild populations of endangered species.
The work also offers researchers an unprecedented opportunity to watch how mammalian egg cells mature -- something that usually happens in the privacy of an ovary -- and to learn about "meiosis," the mysterious process by which an egg or sperm spits out half of its genes so it can mate with its counterpart of the opposite sex.
"The mind boggles with potential wild applications of this stuff," said John Eppig, a mouse geneticist at the Jackson Laboratory in Bar Harbor, Maine.
If the mouse work does translate into an ability to create batches of human eggs, the most immediate effect might be on Capitol Hill. The Senate is debating whether to restrict the creation of cloned human embryos as a source of medically promising stem cells.
Until now, one argument for banning the creation of cloned embryos has been that it would require a huge supply of human eggs to make all the embryos and therapeutic cells that patients might need. That market demand could lead to an "egg-donor underclass" of poor women who might submit to repeated, health-compromising egg donation procedures as a way of making money.
But if scientists can grow lots of human eggs in the laboratory, experts said, that market would not appear. "Commodification and safety issues would be avoided," said Judy Norsigian, executive director of the Boston Women's Health Book Collective, who has been a leader in the movement against what is known as therapeutic cloning because of the risks it might pose to poor women.
Norsigian and others said they remain wary of the new technology because of its potential to facilitate the genetic engineering of people. Scientists have already learned how to add and subtract specific genes in stem cells. Those genetic changes would appear in eggs grown from such cells, offering an easy means of making heritable changes in a family line and possibly giving rise to a new age of eugenics.
The prospect of wholesale production of human eggs from embryo cells also raises alarms for religious conservatives and others who are opposed to all research involving embryos.
"It sounds like this could be another big step towards opening what President Bush has called 'human embryo farms,' " said Douglas Johnson, legislative director of the National Right to Life Committee.
The new work builds on more than 20 years of research on mouse embryonic stem cells -- primordial cells found inside mouse embryos that, in laboratory dishes, can develop into almost every kind of mouse cell or tissue. (Human embryonic stem cells, which have the same potential, were discovered much more recently, in 1998.) Until now, the only cells that scientists could not grow from embryonic stem cells were sperm and eggs.
Hans Schoeler and Karin Huebner of the University of Pennsylvania's School of Veterinary Medicine in Kennett Square, along with colleagues in France and Philadelphia, overcame that barrier by gradually selecting from a mixed population of stem cells the ones that bore certain genetic hallmarks that suggested a potential to become eggs, then isolating those in laboratory dishes.
After a while, perhaps because the number of like-minded cells reached a "critical mass," the stem cells in those dishes started to morph into two kinds of cells. Some became follicular cells -- the kind of cells found in ovaries that help young egg cells mature -- and others became young egg cells.
The eggs appeared to mature normally, the researchers reported yesterday in the online edition of the journal Science. In fact, many spontaneously developed into early embryos in their dishes, something that cultured mouse eggs often do. That offers evidence that the eggs are relatively healthy. But Schoeler said his team is now trying to fertilize the eggs with mouse sperm to see if they give rise to healthy mature embryos -- the gold standard of egg normalcy.
Perhaps most astonishing, said Eppig of the Jackson Laboratory, the lab-reared egg and follicle cells apparently engaged in the complicated cross-talk required for normal development. Follicle cells surrounded each egg in a gentle embrace as they would in an ovary, for example, and even produced female hormones, which the eggs need to mature.
"I am flabbergasted that these darn things are making estrogen," Eppig said. "Imagine what's going to happen when you can do the same thing and make sperm."
The genetic program for making sperm is believed to be more complicated than for making eggs, but sperm farming may not be farfetched, Schoeler said. Success could raise interesting questions about the biological relevance of males.
If sperm can be made from stem cells, for example, then lesbians could make babies by sexual reproduction. Unlike gay men, they would not have to turn to the other sex to gestate those babies.
"It will take a nanosecond for people in same-sex relationships to figure out the potential implications of this research for them," said Murray, of the Hastings Center. "People can just fill in the blanks."
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People don't have sex just to evolve anymore than they have sex only to reproduce.
right but my point is that a gay person can do everything they do with their gay partner with a straight person the only reason they choose the same sex is b/c of their homosexual tendency. Which as ive stated is pointless, actions that serve a meaningless end are inherintly pointless.
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I wasn't aware it was a problem. The discussion seemed to be heading towards whether or not gay should be aloud to adopt.
You posed a question that assumes there is a problem: "Are children better off growing in orphanages and foster homes or with loving but Gay parents?"
If homosexual couples aren't adopting kids from orphanages and foster homes then the question you posed isn't very realistic.
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right but my point is that a gay person can do everything they do with their gay partner with a straight person the only reason they choose the same sex is b/c of their homosexual tendency. Which as ive stated is pointless, actions that serve a meaningless end are inherintly pointless.
People do pointless things. Not that there is anything wrong with that. ;D
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You posed a question that assumes there is a problem: "Are children better off growing in orphanages and foster homes or with loving but Gay parents?"
If homosexual couples aren't adopting kids from orphanages and foster homes then the question you posed isn't very realistic.
There are people who are opposed to gay adoption. True? That's what the post of mine was discussing.
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In Laboratory, Ordinary Cells Are Turned Into Eggs
By Rick Weiss
Washington Post Staff Writer
the scientists made egg cells not only from female cells, but also from male cells, indicating that even males have the biological capacity to make eggs.
If the science holds true in humans as in mice -- and several scientists said they suspect it will -- then a gay male couple might, before long, be able to produce children through sexual reproduction, with one man contributing sperm and the other fresh eggs bearing his own genes.
"
Hahahaha imagine that "my moms my dad"