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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Butterbean on May 22, 2009, 08:02:23 AM
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A relative I spoke w/recently told me there is a radio dj to be waterboarded this morning on the air.
She said you can listen at www.wlsam.com
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EMT standing by
Marine SGT will do the boarding
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Guy said it was "way worse than he thought it would be"
He lasted about 2 seconds
Said it's "absolutely torture"
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Guy said it was "way worse than he thought it would be"
He lasted about 2 seconds
Said it's "absolutely torture"
It's great how you Christians love torture. All of you get behind.
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Guy said it was "way worse than he thought it would be"
He lasted about 2 seconds
Said it's "absolutely torture"
I dont doubt it sucks, but if its my family and coutry vs your cult and intent to blow my family up - - LET THE WATER FLOW!
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They said he lasted about 6-7 seconds.
He said before he didn't believe it was torture, now he does believe it is torture.
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I dont doubt it sucks, but if its my family and coutry vs your cult and intent to blow my family up - - LET THE WATER FLOW!
It doesn't provide useful information. What's the point? You get false confessions. Makes no sense in doing something that doesn't work.
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It's great how you Christians love torture. All of you get behind.
???
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They said he lasted about 6-7 seconds.
He said before he didn't believe it was torture, now he does believe it is torture.
I have no problem with torture under certain circumstances.
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???
So do you still want to torture people Stella?
BTW, thanks for removing my Iris Kyle thread...
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It doesn't provide useful information. What's the point? You get false confessions. Makes no sense in doing something that doesn't work.
In some cases it might.
I want to do what works. If the CIA people wioth experience in this tell me it does work, they are better equipped and experienced to make that determination than I am.
I doubt think they did or do this for fun or kicks, but to try to save innocent lives from the murderous desires of savage terrorists.
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So do you still want to torture people Stella?
BTW, thanks for removing my Iris Kyle thread...
I didn't remove it. It's on General.
Do I want to torture people? When did I say that?
I did say if my mom was buried alive in a hole and the only way to find out where she was was to waterboard the criminal that put her there that yes, I would probably do so. And yes, I stick by that.
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In some cases it might.
I want to do what works. If the CIA people wioth experience in this tell me it does work, they are better equipped and experienced to make that determination than I am.
I doubt think they did or do this for fun or kicks, but to try to save innocent lives from the murderous desires of savage terrorists.
The CIA also claimed the Soviet economy was 50% bigger than it was in 1989. CIA=collection of some successes but mostly failures. If it were truly effective murderers would be waterboarded to get the right information.
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I have no problem with torture under certain circumstances.
I thought you said it wasn`t torture? Republicans already changed their talking points eh?
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I didn't remove it. It's on General.
Do I want to torture people? When did I say that?
I did say if my mom was buried alive in a hole and the only way to find out where she was was to waterboard the criminal that put her there that yes, I would probably do so. And yes, I stick by that.
Why would you assume that "waterboarding" would be the only way to find this type of info out?
FYI, the police in our country are faced with these types of scenarios all the time and they do not "waterboard", yet are able to extract information without torture.
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I thought you said it wasn`t torture? Republicans already changed their talking points eh?
I dont play word games like you do. I dont think it is torture, but I would not care if they did worse if it saves thousands of lives from some muslim savage from seeking allah along with 100k of our citizens.
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Having never set foot inside the countries that most of these people come from, i guess u would feel that way. The arab jihadi mind is like that of an alien.
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I dont play word games like you do. I dont think it is torture, but I would not care if they did worse if it saves thousands of lives from some muslim savage from seeking allah along with 100k of our citizens.
What about bodily mutilation? I think the pragmatic argument wins, most people will tell you anything you want to hear if they are being tortured.
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I dont play word games like you do. I dont think it is torture, but I would not care if they did worse if it saves thousands of lives from some muslim savage from seeking allah along with 100k of our citizens.
There has never been any lives saved in lieu of torture. In order to make the argument that torture works, there has to be some sort of identifiable result. In the History of the United States and the entire History of the United States Armed Forces, there is no single instance of Torture ever procuring any kind of information of any kind that has saved lives.
You are operating on the supposition that torture has already saved lives and that it will ALWAYS work and save lives. This goes against all facts and evidence.
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Why would you assume that "waterboarding" would be the only way to find this type of info out?
You missed the point. It was part of the scenario stated.
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There has never been any lives saved in lieu of torture. In order to make the argument that torture works, there has to be some sort of identifiable result. In the History of the United States and the entire History of the United States Armed Forces, there is no single instance of Torture ever procuring any kind of information of any kind that has saved lives.
You are operating on the supposition that torture has already saved lives and that it will ALWAYS work and save lives. This goes against all facts and evidence.
Based on what...omg dude u have no idea what ur fucking talking about.
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You missed the point. It was part of the scenario stated.
You are giving a faulty scenario in that you are not explaining how "you know" that "waterboarding" is the ONLY way to get certain info.
How would one arrive at this conclusion that out of a billion different methods, this HAS to be THE ONLY one that would save your mom from being buried alive?
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In the course of business, plenty of suspects have had the shit beaten out of them, to get info. Plenty of guys I know have shitbeat jihadi's to get info. Waterboarding worked, we have the memo's. If tickling them worked, I'd be for that.
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You are giving a faulty scenario in that you are not explaining how "you know" that "waterboarding" is the ONLY way to get certain info.
How would one arrive at this conclusion that out of a billion different methods, this HAS to be THE ONLY one that would save your mom from being buried alive?
That was the stated scenario TA. No need to get upset about it. ;D
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You are giving a faulty scenario in that you are not explaining how "you know" that "waterboarding" is the ONLY way to get certain info.
How would one arrive at this conclusion that out of a billion different methods, this HAS to be THE ONLY one that would save your mom from being buried alive?
TA - what if in the ticking time bomb situation everything else failed and you knew that a plot was imminent???
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In the course of business, plenty of suspects have had the shit beaten out of them, to get info. Plenty of guys I know have shitbeat jihadi's to get info. Waterboarding worked, we have the memo's. If tickling them worked, I'd be for that.
Please provide evidence.
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In the course of business, plenty of suspects have had the shit beaten out of them, to get info. Plenty of guys I know have shitbeat jihadi's to get info. Waterboarding worked, we have the memo's. If tickling them worked, I'd be for that.
What about genital mutilation with a buzz saw? Would you be for that as well? (a genuine question)
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I thought we were a civilized country. I didn't know we needed to stoop to the level of third world dictators. :-\
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TA - what if in the ticking time bomb situation everything else failed and you knew that a plot was imminent???
If everything failed, why would you assume that "waterboarding" would work?
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I thought we were a civilized country. I didn't know we needed to stoop to the level of third world dictators. :-\
I don't think a buzz saw to the testicles would produce reliable information, do you?
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Please provide evidence.
Tell u what...go down to ur vfw and ask any of them if they ever pulled a pistol in combat and extracted info. I don't have to prove shit...u want proof. Enlist and become an interrogator.
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I dont play word games like you do. I dont think it is torture, but I would not care if they did worse if it saves thousands of lives from some muslim savage from seeking allah along with 100k of our citizens.
I think Jesse is right... The only people who say it's not torture are the people who have never been water-boarded.
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I think Jesse is right... The only people who say it's not torture are the people who have never been water-boarded.
I am saying it might be torture, and even so, i still have no problem with it.
The difference is that during Vietnam, the vietcong did not have the means, plans, or desire or try to kill 100k of our own citizens.
I live right near Manhattan and used to be able to see the WTC from my hood. The only reason we did not lose 50,000 people on 9/11 was luck.
During most days at normal hours the TEIN Towers had about 50k people in them.
If that were to happen, literally in the snap of a fingers, the same amount of soldiers who were lost in Vietnam would have been killed on 9/11.
What i am saying, for me personally, I have no problem with torturing someone if everything else did not work and he had in custody we knew knew of the plot and it was underway.
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I am saying it might be torture, and even so, i still have no problem with it.
What i am saying, for me personally, I have no problem with torturing someone if everything else did not work and he had in custody we knew knew of the plot and it was underway.
Fine, but just admit it's torture and you're ok with it.
At least you're being honest about it... I have no problem there.
I don't agree, but hell, that's nothing new. I don't agree with most people about most shit anyway... I think it's wrong and think it's sad that the country with the most military might, most intelligence, most high tech equipment on the planet has to resort to torture methods to get information.
Why the hell am I paying for all of those wiretapping devices and satellite surveillance systems then?
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What about genital mutilation with a buzz saw? Would you be for that as well? (a genuine question)
Muslim extremists are known for removing the genitalia of their torture victims.
Feel free to dig up the video of the Russian soldier who has his balls cut off, shoved in his mouth and was then beheaded by Muslims because he was captured and wouldn't convert.
They're also known to gouge eyes out, amputate limbs, use electrical shocks and also employ host of other techniques. AQI even went so far as to cut a man's face off with piano wire as a means of making an example of him.
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Muslim extremists are known for removing the genitalia of their torture victims.
Feel free to dig up the video of the Russian soldier who has his balls cut off, shoved in his mouth and was then beheaded by Muslims because he was captured and wouldn't convert.
They're also known to gouge eyes out, amputate limbs, use electrical shocks and also employ host of other techniques. AQI even went so far as to cut a man's face off with piano wire as a means of making an example of him.
Did they get valuable intel from torturing the Russian Soldier?
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Did they get valuable intel from torturing the Russian Soldier?
it was too hard for him to talk with balls in his mouth. you should know that ;)
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Did they get valuable intel from torturing the Russian Soldier?
They were not doing it for intel. They did it for fun and to pursue their cult religion.
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Muslim extremists are known for removing the genitalia of their torture victims.
Feel free to dig up the video of the Russian soldier who has his balls cut off, shoved in his mouth and was then beheaded by Muslims because he was captured and wouldn't convert.
They're also known to gouge eyes out, amputate limbs, use electrical shocks and also employ host of other techniques. AQI even went so far as to cut a man's face off with piano wire as a means of making an example of him.
If we left the Muslims on their own they would butcher each other and we would have fewer problems for it.
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They were not doing it for intel. They did it for fun and to pursue their cult religion.
Do you think that technique is a good one for extracting valuable information though?
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If we left the Muslims on their own they would butcher each other and we would have fewer problems for it.
However, because we refuse to drill for our own oil, we are dependent on that part of the world for oil and will continue the current charade.
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However, because we refuse to drill for our own oil, we are dependent on that part of the world for oil and will continue the current charade.
No more than any other country that just buys it off the market. We could do it too.
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Do you think that technique is a good one for extracting valuable information though?
I dont think so because you are inflicting damage on a person to the point they probably cant function. Waterboarding does not physically cripple or permanently mangle a person.
I want to do what works to get intel. If the CIA and FBI tell me that it did work and they have proof of it and that it saved my life and yours I have no problem with it at all. None. Not a drop.
The only reason we have to entertain even waterboarding people is because they are intent on killing us. We are not doing this for fun.
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However, because we refuse to drill for our own oil, we are dependent on that part of the world for oil and will continue the current charade.
We have only 8 years of oil under our soil given our current rate of usage. This is not a solution whatsoever.
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We have only 8 years of oil under our soil given our current rate of usage. This is not a solution whatsoever.
Thats more nonsense. We have enough Oil,. natural gas, etc, to be completely self reliant.
We also need more nucs.
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We also need more nucs.
???
WE have enough to blow up the world many times over.
You believe Obama should continue borrowing and spending billions to keep on piling up weapons we'll never use?
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???
WE have enough to blow up the world many times over.
You believe Obama should continue borrowing and spending billions to keep on piling up weapons we'll never use?
No, just enough to get whatever job we need done.
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Thats more nonsense. We have enough Oil,. natural gas, etc, to be completely self reliant.
We also need more nucs.
Our Reserves are only viable for 8 years. :-\
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves
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The problem i have with this torture is simple. By torturing you create more violence, you may as well kill the people you've tortured whether they gave any information or not because they sure as hell are not going to like the US if they are ever released. It creates a system where these 'enemy combatants' will never, ever be rehabilitated. There may be a chance of that never happening anyway but with torture you slam that door shut for good.
3333 since you support the torture of 'enemy combatants' what are your feelings about the Viet Cong torturing US citizens. Was that a justified act by them if they were trying to extract information that could potentially save 1000's of Vietnamese lives? I'd really like to hear your opinion on this.
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The problem i have with this torture is simple. By torturing you create more violence, you may as well kill the people you've tortured whether they gave any information or not because they sure as hell are not going to like the US if they are ever released. It creates a system where these 'enemy combatants' will never, ever be rehabilitated. There may be a chance of that never happening anyway but with torture you slam that door shut for good.
3333 since you support the torture of 'enemy combatants' what are your feelings about the Viet Cong torturing US citizens. Was that a justified act by them if they were trying to extract information that could potentially save 1000's of Vietnamese lives? I'd really like to hear your opinion on this.
I am not someone who is giddy to torture people, however, what I am saying is that if he have someone in custody who we know has knowledge about an imminent attakc that has the potential to kill thousdands of people, may tens of thousands of people, and nothing else worked, I would not be against doing what we had to do to get the info, such as waterboarding.
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I am not someone who is giddy to torture people, however, what I am saying is that if he have someone in custody who we know has knowledge about an imminent attakc that has the potential to kill thousdands of people, may tens of thousands of people, and nothing else worked, I would not be against doing what we had to do to get the info, such as waterboarding.
I understand your viewpoint when it comes to Americans doing the torture for saving American lives. But what about when it's another country torturing Americans to save their own citizens lives? For example like during the Vietnam war. Do you still support the principal that torture is okay then?
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I understand your viewpoint when it comes to Americans doing the torture for saving American lives. But what about when it's another country torturing Americans to save their own citizens lives? For example like during the Vietnam war. Do you still support the principal that torture is okay then?
I dont like it at all, but realize that this goes on in war. Its one of the ugly realities of war.
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I understand your viewpoint when it comes to Americans doing the torture for saving American lives. But what about when it's another country torturing Americans to save their own citizens lives? For example like during the Vietnam war. Do you still support the principal that torture is okay then?
No useful information.
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I dont like it at all, but realize that this goes on in war. Its one of the ugly realities of war.
Fair enough. Don't you think though there should be some sort of law against it though? Wouldn't that be a good idea. A mandate like i don't know lets call it the "geneva conventions" where prisoners of war should be treated as such. However the United States doesn't agree and is in such esteemed company as Israel, Iran, Turkey, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq.
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No, just enough to get whatever job we need done.
we have that already.
Stockpiling any more is a waste of $ - money that will have to be borrowed forom China.
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Fair enough. Don't you think though there should be some sort of law against it though? Wouldn't that be a good idea. A mandate like i don't know lets call it the "geneva conventions" where prisoners of war should be treated as such. However the United States doesn't agree and is in such esteemed company as Israel, Iran, Turkey, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq.
We do have laws against that, but terrorists dont fight for a nation, they are a murderous cult.
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I thought we were a civilized country. I didn't know we needed to stoop to the level of third world dictators. :-\
this is the problem with the lefts way of thinking, civilized and uncivilized is a concept, a concept made by man its only real in our minds...LIFE AND DEATH ARE REAL and have real tangible consequences...
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we have that already.
Stockpiling any more is a waste of $ - money that will have to be borrowed forom China.
Fine, I m totally with you on this. If we have far more than we need, than lets get rid of the waste and keep what we need.
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We do have laws against that, but terrorists dont fight for a nation, they are a murderous cult.
Are we not in a "War on Terror".
If so, then are those prisoners, not prisoners of that war?
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Are we not in a "War on Terror".
If so, then are those prisoners, not prisoners of that war?
No argument with you on this. They are detainees, not prisoners.
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We do have laws against that, but terrorists dont fight for a nation, they are a murderous cult.
Then why is it a 'war on terror'? Why are soldiers involved if it's a cult? Why not police?
If soldiers are engaged and killing it is a war. If the president calls it a war it is a war. If you capture someone during that war they are a prisoner of war.
The only clever thing GWB ever did was not officially declare war on either Afghanistan or Iraq as a country therefore allowing any captured soldiers to be 'enemy combatants' and allowing the US to circumvent it's own laws and international laws to allow torture.
Another quick question the Taleban fighters that remain in gitmo, the ones who are Afghan citizens are 'enemy combatants' right? Well what about the northern alliance that fought with the US are they not enemy combatants too or is it okay for militia groups to join the war as long as they are on the US side?
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Then why is it a 'war on terror'? Why are soldiers involved if it's a cult? Why not police?
If soldiers are engaged and killing it is a war. If the president calls it a war it is a war. If you capture someone during that war they are a prisoner of war.
The only clever thing GWB ever did was not officially declare war on either Afghanistan or Iraq as a country therefore allowing any captured soldiers to be 'enemy combatants' and allowing the US to circumvent it's own laws and international laws to allow torture.
Another quick question the Taleban fighters that remain in gitmo, the ones who are Afghan citizens are 'enemy combatants' right? Well what about the northern alliance that fought with the US are they not enemy combatants too or is it okay for militia groups to join the war as long as they are on the US side?
GW has a mean golf stroke.